[ The early sixties and the late fifties ... from '57 on, saw this burgeoning of independence of Africans resuming the ability to govern themselves after years of colonialism. Suddenly those of us in the states who had grown up on the Tarzan movies and all the degradation of African people were seeing these marvelous people coming into the United Nations, seeing the uh, the men being so dignified, the women looking gorgeous in their traditional attire, hearing speeches being made in perfect English,] that were striking home at what needed to be done for Africa to resume its rightful place in the world.

And we realized that we had been lied to. Now some of us knew that all along, but [the average black person in the street began to realize that an enormous, gigantic hoax had been played on us to strip us of any

Well, personally, I was very, very excited. I was working with African students.

OK. The, the independence of Africa was exciting to me personally because I had been working with African students, I had

The uh, uh, the new independence of African states and the people coming to New York was very exciting, and those of us who had been working with the Pan-African movement in the States already, saw this as just the fruition of what we had been working for and what people older than us had been working for.

We felt that the years of subjection and repression were just about over.

[ That first day when Malcolm arrived in Ghana and we decided that we would make his first evening a night for African- Americans, and we spread the word for people to gather at Julian Mayfield's house, and we assembled a few dozen people, uh, who just sat at Malcolm's feet to hear him talk about what was going on in the United States.]

I think that the, uh, the Civil Rights Movement as he saw it, uh, he was not very interested in joining. He was always more interested in working to get black people to do independent things.

He was not a proponent of integration, which was being fought for. Also, as a leader in the North, he didn't have to be concerned about the access issues that were activating the movement in the South. So that his concerns were really different.

He was looking at making black people more self-sufficient, getting more uh, communities to have their own businesses operating, and getting black people just to stand up and be men and women, and not to beg for what we needed.

Very relaxed. He had had uh .. . Malcolm was quite relaxed at Julian's home. He was in a setting where everybody was on his side. There was no combativeness, no confrontation going on. We were really eager to hear him talk.

So he was very relaxed. He was a wonderful raconteur. A very gracious person. And he just moved you to be on his side and to appreciate what he was doing. Also, he, he struck us as a very honest person. So those of us who were living in Ghana had no hesitation in saying that we would

[" The idea that we might be in jeopardy for following Malcolm was really not an issue with those of us who had gone to Ghana. We had been followed by the FBI. All of us had been involved in activities in the States that had given us FBI records.

So that we had some experience ... some of the people had been in jail in civil rights activities. So we were not a timid group of people. And that in itself was not, uh, not frightful to us.]

When Dr. DuBois had died in August of '63, just a few months before Malcolm came, and we demonstrated at the American Embassy, at midnight, to try to coincide with the march on Washington, we were there in the dark, and eventually we could see there were people on top of the American Embassy.

And we knew they were Marines. Now we didn't know whether they were up there to shoot us or just to take infrared photographs. But we were not timid people. So that was not, really wasn't a consideration.

[" When Malcolm came to Africa in 1964, he had two things that were uppermost in his mind. He wanted to familiarize himself with West Africa. He had never been to that part of Africa before. And he had the mission of bringing charges against the United States for abuse of its African American population and contravention of the genocide convention before the United Nations.

He was meeting with African ministers and heads of state in an effort to get an African country as a member of the United Nations to bring this charge against the United States.]

Yes, Malcolm was our president. And that's the way he was seen by African people who, because they were in countries that were either independent or about to become independent, related more to people who were saying, We want to take control of our lives, than they

Malcolm's speech at the Great Hall at Legan was the largest audience that he addressed in Ghana. And it was an electrifying experience. When he came in, there were a large number of whites in the audience. It was predominantly African, of course. But before he came, we had heard a number of whites laughing as though they were going to be entertained. And they were prepared to uh, to sneer at Malcolm.

But, uh, as he began to talk about the United States, about the brutality and savagery with which African people were treated in this country, and

We're going to start that over?

[" When Malcolm addressed the students at the Great Hall at Legan, it was an electrifying experience. The Hall was full. There were a sprinkling of whites there who had come, really from the comments they made before he started, to jeer and ridicule, and to just have an evening of entertainment.

Well, in an audience, if you're sitting in an audience, you can tell what the mood is, because call and response, which we do here in speeches, is an African thing. That's something that we brought with us from Africa.

So the audience cheered him on. And if he tal--, if he was telling a long story, they were very quiet and you could hear a pin drop. People were really straining to understand what he was saying and make sure that they got everything.

It's very easy when you are part of an audience to know whether it's going with the speaker or whether it's hostile to the speaker.

It's an African way of ... style of speech. With the parables uh, that Malcolm used, were an African style of speech. That's something else that we brought with us, because Africans use parables and

Uh, Malcolm's press conference at the Ghana Press Club was quite successful. He had uh, press from all over Ghana and then from other countries too, because Ghana was a uh, a center for African press coverage.

And uh, his ... he was very concerned to use every chance that he got to indicate why he was in Africa, that he needed the support of Africans to charge the United States with crimes against African people and that he wanted the support from the African press and the African governments, and the African people, uh, for that.

And he also always was telling people about what was going on in Africa. How the United States was undermining the efforts--at that time the Congo was a very hot issue--and he talked about what was going on

They were ... the African Press Corps, uh, was very pleased, because again, you had, these were progressive people. There were no nay-sayers in those groups, and so they were very responsive, and they wanted more and more of this, because they enjoyed writing the articles that would give the political education to their own population, and also would go abroad and let people know that in Ghana, Africans were very serious about African liberation.

[ While Malcolm was in Ghana, there were daily articles in the press about everything that he did. His visit was a major event. Remember, back in the sixties, now, you're not competing with a lot of things, unless a head of state was visiting.

So, Malcolm got very good coverage while he was there. Uh, toward the end of his stay, Mohammed Ali was anticipated, and so that meant that we were going to have another very prominent African American, who came I think, one or two days before Malcolm left.]

But he got very good coverage.

[ Malcolm, as he would go down the street and people would recognize him, he stood out in a crowd in Africa, as he would here. But in Ghana, the average Ghanian would even be a little shorter than the average American at that time. So for Malcolm at six foot four to go down the street, he'd cause a little bit of a commotion.]

People responded to him very, very well. The other large crowd that he addressed was at the Wannaba(?) Ideological Institute. The school that Kwame Nkrumah had established to teach the political cadres--when Malcolm spoke there, [there was a volunteer African-American teacher

At the time Malcolm came to Accra, I was working for the Ethiopian Embassy, and I had hoped ...

Oh, OK. Yes ... that's right. What is Accra?

Um-hum. Yes, um, Mouhammead Ali is ... my recollection is, had come just the day before Malcolm left, and because of the rupture there, we knew that it was probably a good thing that they wouldn't both be in the country at the same time for several days.

On the morning of Malcolm's departure, we went to get him from the hotel to take him to the airport, and as we stood outside taking photographs and chatting, um, Mohammed Ali and one of his brothers, who was traveling with him, came into the hotel from their morning walk. And it was a bit of an awkward moment there, because, uh, we spoke to Mohammed Ali, he spoke to us ...

Alright. Muhammad Ali. My recollection is that he came to Ghana the day before Malcolm left. So on the morning of Malcolm's departure, Julian Mayfield, Maya Angelou, Vicki and several of us went to get Malcolm from the hotel to take him to the airport. And as we stood outside the Ambassador Hotel chatting, Muhammad Ali and his brother who was travelling with him came up.

My recollection is that [Muhammad Ali arrived in Ghana the day before Malcolm left and on the morning of Malcolm's departure, Julian Mayfield, Maya Angelou, and a group of us went over to the Ambassador hotel to take him to the airport. And as we stood outside the hotel, chatting and taking pictures, Muhammad Ali and his brother who was travelling with him, came to the hotel from their morning walk. Malcolm had already told us that it would be awkward for Muhammad Ali to be in his presence because the break with the Nation of Islam. So, when we saw Muhammad Ali and his brother coming, we didn't know what was going to happen. Muhammad Ali talked with most of us and was very courteous but he did not speak to Malcolm. And Malcolm avoided embarrassing him. But it was a difficult moment and we knew that it hurt Malcolm to be ignored like that when he and Muhammad Ali had been so close. So we went ahead and left with Malcolm and took him on to the airport.]

No, because he already told us. He doesn't say anything about it in the car because he already told us that he knew the discipline that Muhammad Ali would have to shun him.

I believe that Malcolm's mood was one of relaxation while he was in Africa. He was probably frustrated a bit because he did not succeed in getting and African government to sponsor the charge that he wanted to make against the United States. Other than that he was quite relaxed. I think it was probably the last quite time that he had. We were concerned about what was going to happen to him when he returned to the States. And in those days our concern was more about the FBI than it was about the Nation of Islam because we really didn't know the extent to which the internal problem was a threat to Malcolm. But we did know that the United States government would be concerned about what he was doing in Africa. So we talk to him about being careful. And, uh, he was pensive. And, but he made it clear to us that he had a mission. And he had to work and do his work, that he could not be concerned or stop his work because of what might happen to him.]

Malcolm was not desperate in Africa at all. Not at all. And I saw him during the May 1964 visit and again in October '64 after Julian Mayfield and his wife and Maya and I had gone to Cairo hoping to see

[ The African governments declined to bring any charges against the United States because their economies were so fragile and tied yet to the metropolitan countries that ruled them as colonial uh dominators, either Britain or France. The United States was seen as a partner that might be helpful in development. And they were simply too small and weak to openly challenge the United States. While they were concerned about us in the United States, we were not a major priority. Their priority was trying to develop their countries.]

Yes. [Malcolm X was a very disciplined person. It was * amusing because as we ran from one place to another, taking him from one engagement to another, one meeting to another--we were smoking, Julian and some of the other folks were drinking, and we were kind of dissipated. And we got --would get tired but Malcolm was never tired. He was eating one meal a day. And at the close of each day, usually Vickie, Maya, and Helen Darden and I would take him back to the hotel and we would talk to him until he was ready to go to sleep. And he would counsel us against the smoking and the drinking. And we would say yes, yes we understand. We agree with that. But we really were not serious about stopping. We could see the benefits of the kind of live he led and the diet he was on. But, we were feeling good enough in our normal lives not to be ready to make a change yet.] Yes, he was a very disciplined person. And we were accustomed to that kind of discipline in members of the Nation of Islam because we were familiar with the Fruit of Islam. And they were just the personification of dignity and discipline.

[ Malcolm related to us as sisters. As women there was not the tension that you get with a man--between a man and women. He related to us as sisters. He was concerned about us. And one of the important things about Malcolm and other members of the Nation of Islam is that

[ In talking with Malcolm you never felt that you were being * talked down to. Malcolm had this capacity to draw people out. He listened very intently. He made you feel that what you said was important. And that when he responded to you, he had really understood what you said. He liked to debate. And if your position was weak, then he would challenge that and make you look at things a different way. But you did have the feeling that he respected what you had to say.]

[ One of the nicest parties that Malcolm had during his stay was when the Chinese ambassador Hung Wa invited him to dinner. The Chinese ambassador was a very progressive man who was later on the United Nations representative from China. The chairman, Mao Tse Tung, had a few months before Malcolm's visit issued a statement supporting the just struggle of African American people for liberation in the United States. That statement, rather than bringing appreciation from some of our leaders here, had resulted in denunciations of Mao Tse Tung by some of our so-called Civil Rights leaders in the United States who did not want outside support from en-- so-called enemy of the United States. The party itself featured films from the Civil Rights struggle that had been cap--they seemed liked secret films almost. They were the most brutal films that I saw of the Civil Rights struggle--close-in photography of people being beaten and brutalized in the South.] But they also had another film that was to try to set a little background of how African Americans were generally treated. And this was some old footage of people in our gang outfits and caps and breaking rocks on the chain gang. So it was not quite contemporary but it did give you and idea of how they sympathized with us.

[ When you think about Malcolm and try to describe him, you would have to think of one of the large cats as a totemic animal for Malcolm because you always had the sense that there was a lot of power * being held in reserve. That what he was displaying was the minimum that it took to get through whatever he was doing that there was a lot more power back there that he could call on. As a very tall person, he could have been intimidating. But he was a bit lanky. His bearing was not military and very erect. So that that was comforting. Uh, I think that he had to stoop most of the time to talk to people. He had a marvelous sense of humor. He was a funny person in the relaxed mood that we were seeing him. He had an extraordinarily quick mind. When you stop to think that he was virtually a self-educated person. He was a genius. He also had this very high level of integrity that allowed him to speak out. When you listen to the tapes of Malcolm's speeches now it's important * the people remember: when he was speaking out about injustice in the United States and calling white people the names that he called them, he was talking to people who were terrified of white people for the most part .. We were still getting off the sidewalks for white people to walk by in parts of this country. So for Malcolm to be able to talk the way he did and

When Malcolm faced the new task that he was going to have as an independent person away from the Nation of Islam, I believe the largest problem confronting him was the creation of a new structure. Regardless of problems with the Nation, they did of a- an organization that stretched throughout the United States. And, that they could communicate with and that they could activate to serve their objectives.

Okay. Alright. Um, [the Nation of Islam was organized throughout the United States. And, so that meant that they had a structure to communicate, to carry out objectives. Suddenly Malcolm had no organization or just an embryonic temple and an even more embryonic idea for the Organization for African American Unity. He was going to have to develop an organization, get followers in large numbers and throughout the United States. So that was a major problem confronting him.] He had some stalwarts. People who were loyal to him and were loyal to the ideals uh because Malcolm had a plan. They had laid out a charter for the Organization of African American Unity that was based loosely on the Organization of African Unity charter. [So they had had a plan of how they would structure the organization but it was going to be a very arduous task.] And uh that's Maya, when Maya Angelou came back to the States, she wanted to work with Malcolm. She was ready to help him develop this organization. Those of us who were going to stay in Africa wanted to build a significant branch in Africa that wold cover all the countries that we were living in because we were in several countries by the end of 1964.

The legacy of Malcolm Xis an enduring legacy in the tradition of Marcus Garvey, Paul Robeson, W.E.B. DuBois and other people who have given their lives to try to restore African people to their rightful place in the world. We are after all the first people of human history and we had a past to be proud of. We have fallen of very hard times in the last few centuries. [Malcolm in in-- during my life time has been the most significant leader for me because of his ability to articulate our struggle. His understanding of the link with Africa and the need for us to look at joining Black people all over the world. That is what he talked about and I consider myself a Pan-Africanist. And I consider him one of the people who helped to meld that ideology. I'm so glad that they young people are looking back to Malcolm now. And I hope that their study of him will help them formulate plans. It's not just caps and t-shirts. And I heard recently that there's an X talcum powder. It's not just about that. Uh, it's about political planning for the liberation of African people all over the world.]

Alright. [When Malcolm was invited for a luncheon by the Nigerian high commissioner or ambassador, El Hajji lsowale, who was a very lovely man who had lived in the United States, so he had lived around African American people. And he wanted to receive Malcolm as a Muslim. He made a speech before the lunch saying that when he looked at Malcolm or any Muslim from the United States, he could just as easily be looking at a Nigerian Muslim. That, he said, they are one in the same people. And he presented Malcolm with a beautiful blue robe, and

[Malcolm, when we look at his role in Africa vis a vis the African American population, he was treated as our ambassador.] He was in a tradition. Marcus Garvey had sent people to Africa. There had been delegations before. Paul Robeson had been received in a somewhat similar fashion. But [in independent Africa, Malcolm was the person who was seen as a spokesperson for African Americans who could be trusted in distinction to others who were working say for the U.S. Information Agency or other American agency(?) because they did send people who kind of scurried around the continent trying to counteract

[ While we were interested in what was going on in the States between Malcolm and the Nation of Islam, he absolutely refused to talk about that in public at all. He did not want to waste the time but he also had a principled view that abroad African Americans should not attack other leaders. So he would not say anything against Dr. King's tactics while he was in Africa. He counseled the people who were travelling with Muhammad Ali to try to get Muhammad Ali not to attack either him or any other African American leader. He felt it was important to spend all of his time dealing with the mission and trying to forward the work and not getting it bogged down in any kind of internal disagreement in front of an audience that would not be fully aware of what was going on.]

Well, I believe that uh we have been blessed as a people to have men like Malcolm X among us and we need more of them so I hope that there uh other people sitting out there right now trying to think what

Women should be out there too. We need men because the leadership of men is very important. Women having been playing their role-- sistas have played our role and we will continue to do that. We need more men to stand up.