... restaurant where uh, Hoffa had his last meal ...

.. And he said that's it.

... in the 60's, small city ...

OK ..... late 20's because I was born in the 20's uh, ... [2602 Lancing was uh, a small town, and uh, the west side was Lancing principally uh, the side of town that uh, blacks lived on, although there was a fringe a, on the North Side. And very few people who lived on the East Side, uh, uh, Malcolm for example, uh, in his family the little family, lived uh, uh, on the extreme South End outside of the city, uh and they had a 4 AB 2656 acre uh, parcel with a small house on it.

It was in a sense because [2691 there were not that many uh, uh, black people who migrated to the city who then found land to farm on uh, or to build their own places. Usually, they located wherever the Realtors pointed them, and generally, they pointed 2719 them to the West Side of the City.]2721

Uh, there were many janitors. Uh, there were people who uh, worked in hotels AB 2759 who did the uh, w... , were waiters, uh, at any of the nightclubs uh, they waited tables. They were in mostly menial type jobs, uh,

[2808 Black people usually were limited uh, in the type of jobs that were offered to them. Uh, mostly janitorial type work, uh, and as waiters and sometimes um, uh, f .. , the more fortunate uh, worked in uh, the Post Office, uh, as clerks, uh I don't recall any mail carriers, but uh, most of the work was 2850 menial. There weren't too many opportunities in those days.2855]

Er, um, Malcolm's father uh, Earl Little, uh, er, was sort of a, uh, novice type of a person at the time because there

No, 1929, I was uh, not quite 3 and uh, uh, I don't really have any recollection of, of that uh, process in 1929, uh, about a fire. I do remember hearing about it uh, AB 3011 after that. Probably within 3 or 4 years uh, after that. Uh, my mother and my father used to talk to them about it, but at the time I

That there had been some ..., [3039 I remember my mother and father uh, listening to uh, Malcolm's mother speaking er, suspiciously about uh, thinking that someone might have set the fire. Uh, because er, I always got the impression that a, Earl Little was just a step ahead of, uh, the law, or some other element, uh, that he was not 3078 really that popular, er, with the establishment. And by establishment I guess I'm talkin' about the city fathers.] So uh,3091] I do remember some conversations uh, about the suspicions uh, that surrounded that fire.

[3112 When uh, uh, Earl Little was killed, uh, uh, or whatever, the accident or whatever it was uh, because we were never AB 3126 sure, but there was suspicion that uh, he had been pushed under a streetcar uh, as opposed to er, having fallen or whatever the problem

[3208 Growing up uh, in the 30's uh, I think uh most families prepared their children uh, how to react, how to act, and how to conduct themselves] uh, and I think it started in school and, and, and, uh, moved right along into life that uh, you had to sort of uh be an actor. And [regardless of how you felt, you had to portray uh, a certain, uh, uh, image uh, so that there was AB 3261 not necessarily that suspicion out there. And uh, the image that it was better to go along and get along, rather than to try to

Generally, um, er, they were (unintell) in their perspective of their own, and uh, uh, usually er, someone tried to put something in their way. Uh,...

In this particular case, uh, for example, uh [3326 the city fathers uh, from a political standpoint. If um, uh, if a person uh, wanted to uh, insist on rights for blacks uh, uh, within the structure of the city, within the political structure uh, there was always uh, there was always uh, certain resistances and uh, uh, things that uh, would happen that would sort of er, indicate that AB 3373 you should stay in your place.] Uh, that er, we all became used to that I think uh, uh as we uh, progressed in, in Lansing.] And the size of the city was typical for that type of thing.3395] But there were some good things about it too. It was a good place to raise a family because the crime rate was not uh,

Uh, the story that sticks in my mind was the ...

The story that sticks in my mind I think, uh, an I really don't know why, uh, was the Earl Little funeral, which I attended as a, a little tot. I probably couldn't of been over 3 1/2 uh at the time, uh, but uh, I AB 3479 remembered uh sitting very close to the casket, and I remember uh, uh, Malcolm's mother going up to the casket, to brush away flies. Uh, she did that 2 or 3 times within

Oh, did we?

OK.

Huh?

Well, it's been quite a lil' while but I used to do it, Yeah. Who's the Washington Redskin fan?

Start from the beginning.

[3534 ...I remember attending Earl Little's funeral, uh, I probably wasn't over 3 1/2 at the time, but for some odd reason I remember some vivid things about that funeral and one of them for example I remember, uh, uh, Malcolm's mother er, walking up to the casket on several occasions to uh swat flies away. And, uh, of all things I remember the color of the casket which looked to be made of uh felt material which was grey, dull grey. And uh, unlike most caskets uh, or all I assume which have a, the tops that raise AB 3603 and lower, this one looked to have a sliding door on it, or a partition on it which slid closed rather than closed. Um, and I, I've

And, I, I, have to assume that um, there, there were a number of people there uh, and one of the reasons I'm guessing is that [3702 there was uh, a cloud over that whole issue, uh because at the time, uh, it was perceived that uh, rather than a, an accident with a streetcar, that uh, Earl Little had uh, really been pushed under the wheels of AB 3729 the streetcar. As a matter of fact, I remember hearing just that language. That he was probably pushed under the wheels of that

[3840 Louise Little uh, or [Malcolm's mother uh, I thought that she was a, a very attractive, very attractive, pleasant lady. AB 3855 Uh, who had a, a clear voice that was very pleasant, and uh, she appeared to be very intelligent.]3868 Um, and uh, having known her in

Wel I , uh, I th.. , I remember at the time uh, uh, as I was growing up and Malcolm, Filbert, Wilfred, they were all uh, growing up, 7 of them there at the house. Um, I think uh, each uh, sort of needed a father image, uh, it's pretty difficult for a individual, single person to, to handle 7 AB 4020 children, and I don't remember her working. Uh, I don't really remember whether or not she ever had a job. I often wondered how

... considering.

Well, uh, uh, [4123 4 acres of ground seemed like 40 acres of ground, uh to me uh, AB 4137 being a uh city person. And um, uh, we used to out, my brother and I used to go out uh, and uh, I can remember having corn roasts. Uh, big feed where uh, we would have to help

My brother and I worked in the garden. Uh, mostly though after my Dad had AB 4302 started to do the planting. And uh, I remember taking uh, breaks and sitting on top of a well house, uh, I listened to uh Wilfred, uh the oldest brother talk about they never did get the electricity to the well. That you had to use a hand pump. And my brother and I used hand pump that water which was ice cold. An' after going down 4 or 5 rows of corn, with a hand cultivator, an you drink a quart of that well water, you're 4354 out of business for a while. So, we used to sit around for a half an hour just to try ta', to get ourself back together. To get up to do some more roeing, uh, or we call it cultivating. You ...

Uh, [4377 Malcolm uh, uh, was one who could tell us stories and laugh with us, but I think we did most of the cultivating. Uh, he was not uh, uh, so inclined to really wear AB 4400 himself out. Uh, I never, really have a picture of Malcolm uh, sweating in that garden. Uh, he would make it comfortable for us to do so, but uh, I never uh, I don't have

Um, I'm not really uh, certain uh, 4467 about any harassment, uh, particularly from uh, they might have been harassed uh, by some of the people that lived around uh the Little's. Uh, [4487 that as I recall was a choice piece of land, and uh, uh, to have one black family isolated in that area, uh, people might not have, as they moved in, might have wanted them out. Uh, which is typical uh, situation. It was typical of these times.4525] Uh, out but uh, I don't know of any personal incidents that, that took place. Uh, I can AB 4541 remember uh ....

OK. I was gone say I can remember a time when they used to do some things uh.

Mmmhmmm

Yeah, OK.

Are you going to have to go uh, North to Yvonne?

Cow ... , cowards .

[5057 Speaking of growing up, uh, talking about Malcolm and Filbert, uh, a story comes to mind uh, about how, as my father would put it, mystevious they were, uh, they were uh, always lookin' for tricks to play on somebody, including me, if they ever had chance, but I can remember one of their neighbors, who was sort a fighsty, and that used to give them a bad time every now and then. And uh, at Halloween, they uh, decided to play this trick on him. And uh, they went out and moved his outhouse. As you know, everybody had outhouses then. They moved his 5113 just strategically, and then stayed around good long enough for him to know that they were out there doing something. So uh, uh, as they were explaining how it happened to me, that uh, when he came out to chase them, all of a sudden he just dropped out of sight with a scream and fell into the hole that they had prepared as they moved the outhouse. And that they had avoided him, I think, for months. Uh, they had to stay away from him, AB 5159 uh, based on that. But that's an example, I guess, of uh, the kinds of things uh, that they used to do. Uh, they were just normal I

The uh, [5229 the years, I think, started to take a toll on Malcolm's mother uh, in trying to provide uh for all of them, and then trying to be the mother/father influence, uh, and uh, I think uh, she probably started to have uh, a nervous condition, uh, which deteriorated and uh, I think uh, probably Hilda, who was the oldest daughter, uh, in the household, uh, was sort of playing mother. Wilfred was playing the father role to the other boys and uh, I think AB 5293 this sort of uh, got to be a problem, and, and at the same time uh, the uh, city fathers again, uh, being aware of this because of the

I don't really remember uh, uh, anything about that other than the fact that uh, uh, when my mother brought him to the house. Uh, and it became knowledgeable that we were going to ...

When my, [5483 when my mother brought Robert to the house, uh, Malcolm's brother, youngest brother, uh, that was my first knowledge of, uh, really meeting him, and uh, at 5 months uh, that was to me a baby brother. And uh, I guess I probably remember more details about changing Robert's diapers 5519 than I do about any circumstances that brought him there. Uh, but uh, Yvonne was there at the same time. And uh, my mother just became their mother, and uh, outside of special occasions when we might have had Wesley, and Reginald, uh, and any oth .. , and Filbert as well as Malcolm. Uh, there was one common understanding er, in Lansing, and AB 5564 that was that they all, uh, that is all of the. Little's were welcome uh at our dining room table, be it breakfast uh, noon, or

Well, I think uh, there's a, there's a lot I've heard about Malcolm in a foster home, uh, I've never felt that Malcolm 1.. , entering that foster home uh, did that through anyone else's suggestion. I think uh, that Malcolm wanted to do exactly what he did. And I think Malcolm picked that particular home to move into. And the home I'm talking about is the home of uh, uh, the 5665 Lyons family. The Lyons family was the only black family that resided in Mason, Michigan. Uh, Mason is the county seat for Ingam County, and um, uh, there was this black family there. I think he worked at the Pet Milk factory, um and the uniqueness of that process was that where in a family, a farm community, a small community, there is a AB 5714 black family, they generally are accepted uh, as saints. They, the, the Lyons family was idolized in Mason, Michigan. And uh, there

Uh, no, uh because there in Mason, he seemed to, to fit the mold and sort of, I would say go along with the process. As I AB 5848 recall him uh, later years in Lansing, in High School, Jr. High School as a matter of fact, uh, he seemed to be more in a

He would come back, that is, prior to his going to prison. Uh, he would come back from time to time and when he did ...

When, [5975 when Malcolm would come back uh, from Boston, on the times that he did come back, he would come back with stories about uh, uh, what he was doing uh, the

How do you know it rolled out.

[6076 When Malcolm um, used to come back from Boston uh, I remember uh, certain times uh, he would come back uh, and he would speak proudly, or braggerdly, whichever way you'd

Well, Zoot suits, uh, you know, you're talking about uh, uh, you hear in the Navy where people where bell-bottoms uh, uh, 6312 which means that the bottom of their pants are wide, uh, uh, as I recall the Zoot suit days, uh, your pants were wide starting at the hip. Uh, but when it got to the ankle, uh, we used to use the expression, ya have to grease your ankles to get those on. I see women now wearing jeans that have the zipper, uh, at the ankle. This is the way the Zoot suits uh, were of those days, and then the coats were long, and the pockets were slashed like they are on jackets today, uh, with big AB 6362wide lapels and the ties were wide, and wide brim hats, uh, those were the Zoot suit days. Uh, if you could uh, er, I, I could never get

That was a status. It meant that uh, that you were, [6442 eh, [for lack of a better 6444 word, I think uh, to wear a Zoot suit, eh, you were hip. You uh, supposedly knew what was going on. You knew where it was at, that type of expression.] Uh, um, that's all it meant.6469] As I look back, it meant that I knew very little, but that uh, you were doing what others were doing that thought that that was the thing that, that made you fashionable at the time. Uh, I think the manufacturers AB 6497 probably saw a lot of us comin'. And uh, made a killing based on a, that type of thing.

The big city, er, the big city was to me the Detroits, uh, the New Yorks, the Bostons, uh, where people had places to go things to do, uh, famous people to rub elbows with, uh, my, I guess I always thought that, that was what big city life was all, all 6579 about. There was however, a strange phenomenon about Lansing, being a small town. The saying was, and probably still exists, I don't care where you came from, and how large that city was, if you stayed in Lansing long enough, it would grow on you, and you always came back. The .. , perhaps it was the, the circumstance that at one time, everybody knew everybody. Uh, there was, as I said the AB 6639 North, the East, the South side. But everyone knew everyone else. Today, uh, there are very few people that live in

When I heard that uh, Malcolm uh, had been arrested uh, or was then, that he was going to go to prison, because I think I had heard, he had been arrested uh, on other occasions where it did not result in uh, prison. But, [6739 when I heard that he had gone to prison, uh, I felt sorry about it, but I was not really surprised. Uh, because uh, even locally, uh, as I recall, uh, people who were involved in street games eventually got caught. And I was always certaGn that at AB 6778 some point this would happen.] [6781 Um, the process with Malcolm however wa .. , I was closer to his situation, simply because he

... He would talk to me about, he would, he, [[6821 Malcolm described vividly prison l ife, uh, hat he was in effect, lonely, and l imited, uh, but had plans for uh, uh, he was going to do a lot of uh, reading. And he certainly did a lot of writing, because I think there wereLtimes when he probably wrote to me uh, every week.6861]] I wonder uh, uh, wha .. , I don't know what I could have done 6874 with all of those letters, uh, uh, some I read, er, er, seriously, and some I, I didn't, but I think if there was a pattern that I got from them, it was that he became uh, more serious about, what was going to happen to him uh, in future years.] Um, on the streets it was sort of a day to day thing. But he then did turn serious. And he was concerned about uh, what he was going to do uh, as he put it, when he got out of AB 6931 prison. And uh, ultimately, what a lot a, what, er, what was gone effect the lives of a lot a people. I just think he'd just gotten

Yes, we were all, I was always uh, uh, f .. fairly cl .. close or in touch with uh, Filbert, uh, Wilfred. Uh, Filbert too, so f .. , but Wilfred being the older uh, came to my parents quite a bit. Uh, for some counseling and he kept uh, my parents informed as to what was going on, uh, what he was doing uh, and uh, so, we were fairly close all through that entire process. Filbert was in and out, uh, as I ... , Filbert AB 7057 was a boxer. out Uh, and a, was .., his interests uh, varied. Uh, he was in .. , whatever it was that he was interested in, it was 100%, go, go, go, in that process, and then he would d.. , get something else that he was interested in and uh, and that changed. Uh, as I recall, he was .. , he had a ...

OK. Because I think Malcolm was ..

Yeah _he was one of the latter. But he was reading about it in ...

Uh, because I'm sure that there was some mention of it in his letters, but I think ...

I remember uh, uh, when Wilfred left Lansing and uh, moved to Detroit and was working in Detroit. Uh, uh, he first

Uh, yes.

When Malcolm uh, came back uh, after his stint in prison, uh, I, if I was to document any changes, first, uh, I guess I would have to say his appearance had changed. 7818[[ He 7818 was uh, no longer the, the Zoot suiter, uh, and uh, no longer the processed hair. No longer the Big Red. He now er, impressed me as being uh, Malcolm the individual. Uh, who was conventionally dressed and uh, appeared to be somewhat serious, and somewhat with his act together, or in the process of putting his act together. Uh, this is the way I perceive the uh, Malcolm uh, after prison.7879]] AB 7881 Um, and then uh, for a while uh, I think we lost track of each other because he, he left

Um, I really never considered uh, embracing the faith that they (unintel) .. , even though there were things about it that appealed to me. For example, uh, [[8097 the self- help doctrines, uh, was one that uh, I thought was positive. Uh, there were s ... , examples in the city of Lansing where individuals who had been, uh, as I would for a lack of a better word, I'd call them winos or people who uh, had little respect for their, for themselves, who uh, once they embraced the religion, uh, cleaned themselves 8148 up. And they became productive.] And [the idea that there was a uh, positive approach to ownership, education, uh, to health habits as far as eating the right foods and things of that nature.] There were some positive things.8178] But uh, George Harrington McGuire, my father, the devout Christian, uh, set the standard er, that if I did not follow it to his code, at least I had enough respect that I was not going to join something that was in direct opposition to what he was preaching. AB 8216 And uh, uh, my, my parents were, they set the kind of example that er, uh, was one that

To m... , eh, eh, the magazines or fame, er, uh, I sometimes, I'm still in awe of the amount of uh, attention and notariety uh, that Malcolm was able to stimulate in his lifetime. [[8287 When you grow up with an individual, play with 'im, run with im, fight with 'im, eat, sleep, it's difficult to look 8305 upon them in awe. And, even though I sat in the car with an individual who's picture was on a magazine, that was a national magazine, I thought nothing of it. Uh, other than that uh, uh, do they really know you? Uh, what'll, will they take that picture off when they find out that you're just a guy like I am,] uh, uh,8351] that's probably uh, an' I'm sorry that I, i... , in one sense that I felt that way because, I have often wished that I had kept the letters, uh, that uh, that I went AB 8376 back to our homestead and searched the attic, and everywhere else tryin' to find them, uh,

Um, d .., d .., uh, just rarely. I think one time, uh, he came to Lansing, uh, because Filbert had brought him here, uh, and 8454 I uh, went to listen to him. Uh, and they had as .. , both asked me to, but once he went to New York and became a resident of New York and, and in that process at that level I never heard him uh, in the flesh. Now, I'd, you know, I'd s .. , I'd heard him uh, if there was anything on radio that I could hear, uh, I wouldn't miss it, but uh, I never visited him there in New York. And I didn't attend AB 8502 his funeral, so, uh ...

I uh, I have not, I'm not familiar with anything that Malcolm has said that I could say was a falsehood. Malcolm probably said a lot of things in a way that alienated a lot of people. But uh, ...

You know, I think he's the kind a person, we have uh, people in Union movement, or in the polit ...

His ideas? What were talkin' about?

Yeah. Um ..

Yeah, I think so.

Uh, Malcolm had uh, uh, a lot of different concepts that some people probably thought were somewhat extreme. Uh, i ... , if we would be talking about separation of races, uh, I never quite agreed that, that was a way to go, but I've always felt that it's necessary to have all kinds of thoughts out there, uh, and I say that because I can 8609 remember in this very city where there was a direct confrontation on an integration situation. And we had a person who was black who was the superintendent of, of public instruction. That's a state highest held education post, who was valiantly laying out a program as the way he thought the city fathers should go and the board of education people. Uh, and they let that go in one ear and out the other, but on the other side of AB 8657 the table at that same meeting that I attended was the town militant, and he

I would have to think that uh, that [[8768 Malcolm, uh was an individual who uh, could have been a spokesperson for many of us. Uh, I would have to say that [[8785 he said things, that AB 8791 many of us should have been saying or could have been saying, or wanted to say, uh, that

No, uh, I didn't have any contac' uh, with Malcolm for probably uh, uh, maybe, 2 maybe 3 years. Uh, when he really became uh, uh, busy and traveling er, you know, he went to Mecca, and he was, uh, going through AB 8939 this process. Uh, I followed his career during that break uh, because I worried about

I've always, uh, however, been in touch with uh, uh, the brothers and sisters uh, uh, regularly. We were in touch during that period of time, and we are in touch now. 9016 Uh, uh, probably every 2 or 3 months I see uh, his oldest brother, I have a cottage uh, on the same location as Filbert, recently just purchased uh, a place, and Filbert lives in Detroit. I know his former wife, and all of his children, and his current wife, and naturally, Yvonne, who is my sister, uh, we uh, see her regularly. We don't go there, AB 9070 she comes here, so ...

Th .. , the uh, they I think um, Yvonne, uh, being one of the younger uh, she had certain memories about Malcolm, and I'm not convinced that she was closely, that in touch with him, uh, right up until his death, but uh, they were all effected by, by that process. That's, that's a relative, that's a brother, that's blood, and uh, for it to happen in that way, I remember uh, Yvonne, uh, getting ready to go to the funeral in New York, and uh, my sister, my younger sister 9150 who grew up with Yvonne, and they were like sisters, uh, went with her uh, and uh, we were effected by it, naturally. [9166 It was like losing someone who you had a temendous investment in. And uh, but um, Wilfred, Filbert, I was somewhat puzzled by how they felt, about that process. Particularly, Filbert, because he was still in the movement, and uh, uh, whether or not, uh, I often wondered myself whether or not they were going to remain involved. Because there AB 9212 was some suspicion at the time as to, uh, they knew who the assassins were, but uh, who

Uh, telephone calls from Detroit, uh, Wilfred. Uh, well, not that he had, we got the, what details we could get through Wilfred.

But uh ..

Er, the uh, the event of Malcolm's death uh, uh, was naturally a uh, televised and on radio, and uh, really it was a, uh, AB 9335 national item but uh, personally I got my information from uh, Wilfred his brother, who

Somewhat bitter, but somewhat confused, uh, [I, [9392I felt bitter, and [I felt confused on the basis that uh, I uh, thought that uh, if this is a religion, and uh, when one disagrees uh, and comes to this untimely type of death, uh, where are we, are we talking out of both sides of our mouth. I was con .. , confused about uh, why such a 9438 thing should happen. And uh, whether or not this was a struggle for power, uh, or control of black peo le. Or, what really was the motivation behind it.9456]] This probably was a big concern of mine.

To have an individual who was black and who was uh, famous, who was influential, AB 9502 who motivated others and who positively motivated others to lift themselves up uh, to do those things that were gone be positive. Uh, to preach family, uh, to preach wholesomeness, all of the things that Malcolm uh, later became to preach. And then to have someone strike him down, and someone of color, to do that, uh, that was somewhat demoralizing to me uh, because I found myself wondering out uh, did they do this in and of themselves, or ...

[0074 I remember hearing uh, about the uh, tragic death of uh, Malcolm, and that, uh, 2 uh, black males, uh, armed with uh, machine guns uh, or automatic weapons, uh, whatever, had uh, shot him down, and uh, I remember some description of how many times he had been shot, the number of bullets that his body was riddled, and that uh, there was AC 0124 just a little hope of his ever, that he might

Well, I, [0414 if I wanted uh, Malcolm's life to be meaningful to anyone, I probably would want them to learn from it that regardless of how rough it is when you AC 0446 start, the possibility is always there for you to get on top of things. And uh, you can make something from nothing.0463] Uh, because I

Malcolm uh, uh, as I recall him, if I was to compare father and son, I, I would have to say that, that both were against the AC 0611 grain people, or renegades so to speak. But uh, Malcolm to a degree was uh, the more

Uh, you had cut, cause I didn't .. , I didn't hear the question.

OK.

I do. Uh, yeah OK.

All right.

All right.

OK.

Yeah.

When Emmett Till was murdered uh, I, I was ...

I, I was incensed ....

Er, uh, I, when Emmett Till was murdered uh, I was incensed and hurt and mostly angry.

Cut.

Cause I'm, I'm not...

No. This boy, you talkin' about Emmett...

... coming from...

OK. and...

You know, here's a fella from a large city, that's going to head to a small community, where he knew that he was gone run against some problems, but he had the guts and the courage to do it. Uh, that's just a courageous thing that a lot of us didn't have nerve to do.

I remember uh, Rosa Parks uh, and that pronouncement, and uh, Martin Luther King who I was extremely proud of. Uh, but always nervous and concerned. Uh, that something was going to happen there. But uh, it said to me that, there's courage, and I'm proud of the people that have the kind of courage to say finally, they weren't going to do something.

I, I uh, I responded to it, sho ...

[[0959 I remember turning on my television set with 3 small children of mine, looking at TV. Watching dogs uh, barking and biting, it, at uh, young people. Fire hoses, uh, watching people uh, with that kind of tremendous force and I remember the expression on my son's face when he looked at that and looked at me. And I found i .. , it 1004 very difficult that I had to explain to them and I did it very carefully, pix out because I did not want my children to be bitter as a result of seeing what they had to see, but it really crushed me.1029]]

And ironically I do remember precisely ...

I can remember uh, the television version of uh, uh, showing a church in Birmingham, Alabama uh, where uh, the bomb had exploded and uh, some little girls were killed. Uh, and also there was television as far as the funerals were concerned. Uh, I just remember looking and shaking my head and just had a very, very hopeless feeling on the basis of a when. How long is it going to be before we get this thing turned around. 1117 That's pretty much what I remember about that process uh ...

Well, it uh, I guess if, if Malcolm's pronouncements about uh, our being nonviolent, turning the other cheek and things of that basis, uh, uh, if any of that was going to have any meaning, that we were going to have to be persistent and act, uh, that really drove it home. Uh, I was amazed AC 1177 at how the people involved in Montgomery, could uh, just go on, and, and rise above

[[1215 The march on Washington uh, uh, was an event, it was tremendous, that uh, that many people were assembled and uh, the kinds of people, er, that were involved uh, there were labor union people, uh, uh, the Walter Ruthers who walked side by side, there were A. Philip Randolph with one of the planners, and uh, uh, the various races that came together uh, all different backgrounds and 1276 uh, uh, that was probably one of the encouraging events that said there is hope. Uh, there is a force in this country that wants to do right, and more importantly there are people who do listen to reason. And there are people who have conscience.1313]] That really put that together, and uh, uh, that was the beginning of the real civil rights culmination. As far passage of civil rights bill. Of course, as far as the civil rights AC 1345 movement is concerned, I guess for every step you take forward you have to be ever mindful

Again, uh, I remember the Detroit riot situation and uh, uh, I had friends in Detroit and I was concerned about uh, uh, an' it was hard for me really conceive that people could just turn on each other like that, but uh, er, it was a terrifying thing 1426 as far as I'm concerned, uh, I don't really thing I looked at it from a standpoint of being angry. I looked at it more from a standpoint of being shocked and concerned that uh, that kind of thing could happen and hopeful that from a law enforcement standpoint ...

That the riot situation uh, uh, not only in Detroit, but uh, uh, they were up, AC 1472 they were in Chicago, they were riots everywhere, um, uh, but I was just, appalled

The, violence is, uh, is so 1553 discouraging and in some instances, a lot of the violence that we were ensuing in, in the years uh, around the Kennedy assassination, uh, the, uh, police forces were uh, under suspicion in a lot of situations, and uh, uh, I guess, I felt sort of hopeless in certain places that those that carried weapons to protect were really carrying weapons to enforce the status quo. Um, and uh, I thought that the riots were destructive in that they really damaged uh, the communities that were black, but uh, I guess I felt that AC 1639 uh, if people were that hopelessly incensed, that that was at least a message, uh that had

That's it?