-time is we don't literally pinpoint, I guess that actually according to what we're studying in class, and they focus in on the cartoon and they take the message of the cartoon as, as describing [inaudible] myself. My only comment about the use of it is I think you do have to be careful with students to be sure that you make some links and not let them...this would be, the cartoons themselves would be easy to get a point but to get grounded in that and to stay there. And usually, because they're so sarcastic and, the of the, you know, satirical nature that we get at a different level than they do. And so, when we always make a point of picking a few off the board-

-I put them up on the boards on the wall, put new ones every week and actually discuss them. Go back to, well, how does this...what does this say in relation to what you know from what we've been studying in class? I think they should be used that way, or by themselves obviously.

How do you deal with the fact that people perceive cartoons as saying different, different things?

When, when we start talking about it, it becomes clear that the boys themselves generally have gotten a joke almost the same joke universally and they're usually, this again is eighth grade, they're usually a little bit surprised when I start adding, a little bit annoyed actually that I start adding other layers of meaning and then asking them to, to make it link. They, they feel almost like the purpose of the cartoon is just the joke at their age and, Leave it alone, you know. Why are we, why are we discussing this? I brought this in. I know why it links, and...but that tends to be the tendency that they've raised. They, they know a lot about why things happen, you know. They think they do. And so if you don't continually keep refocusing them, they will take that as the point and then the point becomes funny as opposed to serious. And so, I was trying to get them to realize that it is funny and that's OK but it's funny on a serious matter and for it to, for them to internalize. They ought to try to take a serious point too, not just the funny point. They want to take just the funny point and take a real serious issue and make it funny and that becomes an easy dismissal. So, in civil rights issues, if we were to use a lot of cartoons in my class, at least with civil rights issues, I would constantly be on the, on the point of we, we've, we've got to look at the serious issue because it'd be very easy for them to say, Gee, yes. It's funny. And then in the end, you end up with a, a mindset that these issues really aren't as serious because people make jokes about them. How could they be serious? And, and the papers printed the jokes. So, that's what I try to avoid, is, is letting them just stop. I want them to be, to laugh if it's funny but I don't want them to stop at the funny and the laughing part. [inaudible]

Anyone else had experience with using cartoons in a classroom?

Well, when I find that kids who are reading cartoons, some, sometimes I have artists who draw cartoons. I also share with them that cartoons that are in other sections of the newspaper like the commentary section where they're a bit more political. And sometimes we get a chance to talk about it, you know. But mostly, my kids like to draw cartoons and write their own messages.

I guess I'm curios ab-maybe I didn't hear all what you were saying. How would we use this lavender-what would be a lesson? How could we, what are the teaching points in this cartoon? In a way, I guess it, it would be, there are kids in our classrooms who are living some form or other, this experience, this child's, this, this woman's experience and even the child's experience. I teach in an independent school and, and the Black students are a distinct minority and are, are definitely inculcated with this, this view that, that color doesn't matter, many of them anyway believe that color does not matter and then they are shocked when they leave our school and hit college campuses like this that's depicted in here. So, what, one of the things we...I haven't seen this cartoon but one of the things we did was bring students back, graduates back to our school to talk about their experience. What does diversity look like on college campuses? And it, it just started to awaken, at least put, put it in their mind that there's something they're going to step into that they're not ready for because these students, our graduates come and say, We weren't prepared for this. We were not prepared for this one. So, anyway, I'm curious about this one cartoon if, if anybody else is, I'd love to talk about it maybe afterward or even now. I don't know.

It raises some provocative statements in it. In one, there's an assump, a working assumption here in the cartoon that there is Black racism as well as White racism. And it also seems to as, to assume that we hide behind racial identity as a way of not loving other people who are different and it's easy to escape within our own race and use that as a mask to keep us away from someone else, 'cause she says in the end, Why can't she be a racist-

And just love Blacks.

-and just love Blacks instead of believing in America? That's this provocative statement.

Linda?

Yeah. I guess I look at this almost as an uplifting piece. And it reminds me of an experience that we had this year. And I work in a school that is a third Black, a third White and a third Hispanic. We don't have any Asian students. And the staff, is my program, not my school, I should say, and the staff is pretty mixed. And we had some researchers that wanted to come in and talk with just our Black students about skin color and hair and the faculty flipped out that we wanted to segregate our Black students and give them the opportunity to talk about skin color and hair. And I'm reading this and I'm thinking, this would have been a really good cartoon to give to the staff, both Black, White and Hispanic to help them 'cause I had this sense that the staff had more trouble with wanting to get the students to talk about those issues than the students. We ended up, given that I'm the administrator, [laughs] I just said we're going to do it and we didn't talk about it anymore. [laughs] And it was one of the more successful opportunities for our students even though it made teachers feel uncomfortable. But I read this and I think I want adults, Black, White and Hispanic to read this 'cause I don't think just as Beverly said, we, race is so difficult to talk about. And as a subset of that, I almost think that skin color and hair is even more difficult to talk about and kids really want the opportunity to talk about that. I got to sort of be a fly on the wall and, you know, just be really in the back of the cafeteria, you know. You couldn't tear those kids away from the conversations they were having. So, I advocate this could be a very positive thing to give kids opportunities to talk about their own issues of racism.

What-Lyda, I'm writing down names. So, put your hand up, you get on a list. Lyda.

This is just the question that I, that I wanted to pose since this discussion is taking off in this vein. And I, and I guess it follows what he articulated to be a working assumption based on this cartoon with a lot of subsets that seem to be moving along. One, is that there is this concept called Black racism, that it's OK to talk about and raise and assume it to be correct. I'm not quite sure whether I would engage in that conversation and two, that, that to wanna deal with as they say, racism, Black racism has some, has some sense of an, [stutters] of, of being inferior. Why can't she be, why can't she love America and still be Black? I mean, why can't she, why can't we like to be Black and have that not associated with liking everybody else or having it associated with not liking America because I am concerned about loving Black people primarily first. And I think this has something to do with the discussion of pluralism, which I'm never quite clear about anyway. But I, I'm raising a question about whether anybody else in here is feeling OK about the direction of, of, of where this, this is going. I'm not feeling, I'm not feeling very comfortable. That's how I feel. I'm not feeling very comfortable at all.

I don't understand your question.

I'm not feeling very comfortable about the issues around Black racism because I don't-those assumptions because I don't believe in it. I think I'm, I'm not alone. There's someone else talking about it.

Dorothy?

I hear what you saying and I have mixed feelings. I don't know whether it's a comfort level or if it's my intellect colliding with my emotion. And I say this because we had a very heavy conversation last night at the 4:30 club dealing with this very issue of confronting ourselves in particular about our own feelings and beliefs about where we're going in terms of affirmative action and taking care of racial issues and what our hopes and aspirations are for our students and our children. And when we got into our discussions, I think I made a very stark discovery about myself. That I am very much a prejudiced person, that I carry that with me everywhere. And that although I'm trying very hard to set the old things down, it's going to take a lot to let my fears, my anxieties, my beliefs be put to rest. Even though I have seen many examples of there's been change, there's been positive change. There really is an understanding in an attempt to bridge all these gaps, but I look to my children to be the ones to make that step further. And the reason I say that is because I'm not quite sure that the mortal person that I am is ever going to really be able to fully accept the responsibility of making that commitment and that step forward one hundred percent without reservation. And it may have to do with my personality. It may have to do with all the things that occurred in my young lifetime that I carried into my adulthood that I think I had insulated my children from until the morning that they were at school as a young, and I mean, at an early age, at a primary school age when they came home with their first racial issue. And to really appreciate this, my two biological children, although very similar in features, when people look at them at first, say, They're brothers? Because one is a beautiful example of the '50s passing child and the other is very clearly identified as a Black child. And I watch the experiences that they have had in their short lifetime and I look at the impact that it has had on them individually and I think, my God, you know, somehow, they are making headway and they really truly believe all the things that we've taught them to believe and all the things that we've placed around them and enforced and reinforced it. Yeah, there's no difference between the races and, you know, people are equal and all those things. And then these incidents occur which deflate that momentarily for them but require a tremendous amount of the community around them. And it really does take more than just their parents but a support community made up of all the people that they believe in coming to the rescue and reinforcing for them that this is not an issue for you personally but an issue for all of us to handle and to deal with. And I look at that versus the reality of whether that could happen for every child that is ever confronted with an incident that will deflate them at, at least and maybe crush them to the point where they have to totally retreat from what they believe they were doing and recuperate...build themselves up again before they're willing to go back out there and try. And those are the questions and the issues that come to mind for me when I look at this because it's very much the fear the parent in me has that, have I been able to do what I truly believe I want to do enough or well enough to make that one more step to the level that I think we're trying to travel to? And I put it out there. I don't know.

Tessil?

I, I'm sensing certain concerns also. I mean, thinking over the last three, four days.

What?

I'm certain-I'm feeling some different kinds of concerns also 'cause we've been here for the last four or five days picking around all kinds of different opinions and attitudes and, and one thing that struck me in what this woman was saying is that White people always seem to have a concern with the need for people of color to have to deal with particular issues as a group without the advice or input of White people. I don't know why but it always seems to be a problem for a Black person or a group of Black people to say, Hey, let's go over here and deal with this as Black people. And, and, and it's almost like, Well, you don't have a right to do that without our OK. And, and we don't need your OK. And maybe in a school setting where faculty and, you know, parents and administrators have all these agendas but in reality, even sometimes in this setting, I was feeling like, you know, certain people were out of place in certain particular conversations. And it's not to say, hey, we don't want to be involved in, you know, a multicultural multi-racial group talking about civil rights but in some aspects of civil rights, Black folk gotta go in the corner and duke it out and, and deal with the concerns that some White folk just will never understand. And I don't know...that, that's just a, that's just like a, maybe like a little overriding concern that I, I've been feeling. And I just wanted to throw it out there because, you know, you hear things about "Black racism" and, you know, the White kid can't deal with the Black kid anymore. And it's like, you know, I've heard it for thirty-seven years and I'm still not feeling like, like I should care.

Thanks. Pat?

I was, I was gonna to offer Linda some advice. When you mentioned about the staff, how to educate them. There was a couple things. _School Daze_, the movie that Spike Lee did, has a lot of stuff in there.

Can't hear you.

Can't hear you, Pat.

I was trying to offer some advice, you know, trying to educate her staff with references and stuff. I was, I was just mentioning the movie _School Daze_ has a lot of stuff in there but you can't, you know, really bring that to school to show to the students because of the other stuff, but-

But you can bring it to the staff.

Right. Also, Eartha Kitt, a Black entertainer who suffered all her life with some of the stuff that, that Dottie was talking about, you know. She grew up hating her family because she was the darkest in the family and a lot of her sisters and brothers could pass for White. And the, and the mother seemed to have favored the other sisters and brothers over her and she grew up all her life, disliking her family and having a lot of problems with that. The other thing is there's a woman who works on the Boston School Department who also works at Roxbury Community College and she runs workshops for students around-she collects a lot of Black memorabilia. And she collects a lot of stuff around the nappy hair and all the different Black images and stuff like that. And Black images whereas some Black folks cannot accept themselves and she tries to teach the children how they can appreciate themselves no matter what texture of hair you have, no matter how you look, et cetera, and she's excellent. You know, I've invited her into my class. The last name is Williams. I can't think of her first name right now. It'll come to me.

Cheryl. But she's moved.

Has she gone?

She's moved she's out of state now.

OK. But there's, there's the man too. I met him at Boston College recently. His wife does something like that. I can try to find their number, yeah.

Judy?

I'd like to make a distinction between racism and prejudice that was made a couple days ago. I think that was a very effective and very important distinction. Racism is prejudice with power. I, I, I don't think it's realistic to expect to be a human being and to somehow be free of one of these very troubling aspects of our nature which is prejudice of all kinds. And I, I want to pick up on something John said the other day that happened at his school. The facilitator talked to the group and, and basically used the twelve-step approach to talk about every-people in your staff admit that you are, I would assume the White staff, that you are recovering racists which is the, the twelve-step approach. I think that's, I think that's an important and even for Dottie. You need to expect somehow at some point in anyone's life to reach it to make it. I don't think-I, I just don't think it's a realistic expectation of human beings. I think it's a one day at a time constantly asking, religion teacher in me, asking for the help of a higher power to try to move us along and to be, and to forgive ourselves when we discover these things in ourselves. I also think that for White people, there's a problem, because many White people of goodwill are, also have their, their confrontation that they're not expecting when they are confronted with prejudice against them from Black people at one time or another, that they feel individually are not deserved. But then if you look at the history of Black-White relations, I don't think, I think we have to as human beings, be able to somehow understand and try to forgive and forget and get past it, but not expect perfection from any one of us, Black, White. Just keep realizing we're all human beings and we're all moving along the same path. Hopefully, we can all try. We can keep groping towards loving one another better. I don't think we're going to get there in this life perfectly.

Thanks. Anne.

I don't...I agree in the sense that I don't think we'll ever stop viewing people in racial [signal interference noise] categories, you know. Until that stops, I don't think we can see each other at a more equal level. And there are things like institutional racism, the system itself, that perpetuates that, conscious or unconscious. My two children are similar in the same sense that my older child is darker than my younger child. My older child was four when he asked me how come his brother was lighter. And I brought this to his father, saying-

We can't hear you.

My younger child was four when he asked me why he was darker than his younger brother. When I told their father that, he never saw the difference, OK. He said, I don't treat my children in racial categories. But I said, Yes, but everybody else does, you see. So, until the institutions in society change, I don't think that itself will change. We may see it in terms of stages of development, stages of awareness and then you can go in a full cycle sometimes, depending on where you're at, but I'm not the optimist that some people are. I don't really know if, like, even my children will know.

John.

What Donna said and Don-

Judy.

No, back.

Oh, Anne.

Tessil.

I kind of, I kind of-I, I, I feel the same way from the opposite end. I feel that frequently, I drive into the community every day and my, my students are all either Black or Latino and I leave at three o'clock and they're still there. And I really have to question what am I doing there by that driving in and driving out? I'm really disconnected. And that, even though I go to work every day and I try to teach kids and I try to do a good job and the issue of racism comes up, I don't think I, I know that I can never really feel what it's like to be Black because I was, was not raised Black. I can never have that feeling. I can try and understand and I can try and work to change things and so forth but I think it'd be foolhardy to say that I could ever feel the way you feel. And I often really question, even in faculty meetings, something you brought up. I want to say to some of my colleagues, the White people should shut up in this discussion. And I've noticed particularly with the administration, the Black faculty, particularly, are making statements about the students who are Black and how things should be done and so forth and so on. And I frequently feel that nobody is listening to them, about what they're saying. We know better. And I constantly get this feeling, I agree with you, I don't know that, that I can go to my grave feeling completely non-racist because I was born into a society which taught me to be racist. The only thing I can say is I know that it was critically important at a certain point in my life, and I don't know how it happened, to somehow say everything I've been taught isn't true and I'm somehow still keep looking for the truth and answers and so forth. But I kind of agree with both of you. I know, at least maybe it's me and maybe it's who I am, but I always feel that there is a wall between me and someone who is Black. There's never really that total coming together that, that I really would like to see, but just doesn't quite happen. I don't know if it can ever happen, I'm forty-seven and it's 1990, and all the things that are going on. I don't know that it's ever gonna happen. That's why when we did this thing and this term "recovering racist" was very useful for me because I felt-OK, I'm not, I'm not this terrible person. The fact that I've accepted that, that this is true that there's a lot of work to be done and it, and it still has to continue has to be good enough. I don't know what else I can do right now. And as far as recognizing people of different races, it occurs to me that, because I know that you're a woman, or you're, you're Italian or whatever you are does not mean you're unequal. A woman is different from a man and maybe you're different from me because you're Black or Hispanic, but that does not then, the equation does not go to that being inequality. And so, I think that's the other thing I keep in mind. I'm never going to look at her and think she's not Black. So, what does that mean? Or look at someone else some of my other friends and say they're not Italian. I'm always gonna know that. So what? then becomes the question. That does mean we're unequal.

Thanks. Russell.

I, I think that, that this whole discussion points out part of the philosophical problem that exists within, within the United States right now. I think that over the past twenty, thirty years, we've done a lot of work at promoting the idea that, that people are equal and that as far as our major devices of philosophical input, that there's a lot out there that promotes the idea that people are equal. So, we have kids in the classroom being taught at very early age we're all equal and he's just the same as me. In terms of our essential humanity, I think that's correct, but I think it's also true that we're all different. And I don't, I, I think perhaps part of the next philosophical step, which is going to be real difficult, is building the understanding, or communicating how equality and difference fit together. I think that that's part of, part of our job and the reason why we still need to wrestle with some of the civil rights issues, to, to tease out in the same way that a lot of other things were teased out, through 4:30 discussions and others, some of the, some of the things that are now part of our, of the cultural base that we give to the kids, but it's not enough, yet.

Thank you. Dan.

I think one of the important things that needs to happen too is-the hatred is there-there are White people who hate Black people.

Can't hear you, Dan.

The, the hate, the hatred is there. There are White people who hate Black people, Black people who hate White people. Jews who hate Germans, and so on. And I think, the, the thing that I try to do is when I, when I, instead of saying, Oh, it's not there, but acknowledge it and try to move past it. I know for example, with my own mom, you know, she hates Germans. We're Jewish, she hates Germans, it's justified. But not, that's not, for me, that's not good enough, you know. I think at some point, you gotta just say, OK, what, what's the next step, because the hatred is so destructive.

Thanks. Ed.

I'm trying to make some notes, and sort them out, but I'm sort of responding, probably to everything that's been said and how [inaudible]-

Can't hear you.

Sorry. I'm trying to respond a little bit to what John was saying. And I, I guess I raised my hand because I became a little troubled with the notion that we must be like our students to teach them, or even be like them is best, because we may be able to understand what we think they're going through, but if we're troubled by the fact that we really don't think we understand, or we don't think we can empathize, does this prevent us from being able to teach them? My comment, I guess, to that, is I'm sure that that creates some problem but that, in fact as, as educators and teachers, our, our main value in the process is who we are and what we bring to the process. The problem and dilemma in, in, I think, in being, becoming an effective teacher is, is recognizing that and then going with it, with whatever that means and being open-minded and trying to help your students to be open-minded, you to them and then to you and to the process of education. So that the, the progress is made when you or the student or both, can take on a little bit of each other in that open-minded kind of form and see that - wow, that maybe I may not ever feel like Black person, I may not understand anything about them but because of the uniqueness-you, John, that I bring to my classroom in that process and the openness that I'm willing to come into that room with, I'm going to take on a little bit of the educational experience I've had with them and surely, they're going to take on some from me. And then with the, whether it's civil rights or English, history, whatever, whatever in the context in which we're going through the educational process in, our filters will filter that in, when more and more, particularly teachers, are doing that and more and more students, we're opening them up to that. You're creating a situation where, where the twelve point or whatever, however many points there are, that process is possible to occur. So, it's kind of a long process but it's, it's hurt, I think, when we question our value in the process because our students are different. I, I teach all, predominantly White students actually, but I've taught all sorts of students. I've never once questioned, or thought about, what the, the difference for them or for me, because I'm not like them. I, I always walk in with the excitement out of the fact that there is a difference, and that we're going to be able to explore that in the context of the educational process and both are gonna get something out of it as well as learn something.

Thank you. John.

Yeah. I've, I had great difficulty most of my life with the problem of race, you know, being brought up in an area where the only Black family in the whole town, except in the next town here was Uncle Herb and, and Aunt Nellie. And then I always felt that the differences in terms of race were artificial. And then the more I studied the difficulties of all of what I call the planned matches, Jew versus Gentile, Black versus White, men versus women, pimp versus policemen, but it seemed to me that once you got by the planned match, then you came to the real match which was between those who had a capacity for life versus those that don't, and those that don't usually become administrators.

All right, just give me the signals, folks.

And, and, and they have to-and, and one of the most pervasive images in literature is that of Dracula. And Dracula, in order to, like most administrators, have to attach themselves to people with real blood in their veins. And I, and I, but the thing is that that we're building something that's so phony and artificial and I feel like you're building castles in the air and I'm, I'm asked, I'm renting a damn room. And, and I become part of your illusion. Now, the different, like I feel the truth is so private that no two minds can appreciate the same truth at the same time. And that my endless effort to touch any human being, one of the reasons that I quote so much feminine literature, and I'm a, I'm a real feminist even though I find very few women who are. And-

That's a chauvinistic statement, right there.

See, if you were a feminist-

Look, we're all teachers and I'm only man in the society who's paid to tell the truth and so I ought to do it, and it's the truth as I see it, and am I to believe you or my own eye? And so, if we are going to deal with, with, with real things that, and we're going to find a new basis not looking in one another eye, eyes, I don't-Last night, there's a fair man who just came in, that I was having a, a chat with, you know. I grew up. without knowing it, I'm, all right, I'm anti-feminine, because I grew up in a chauvinistic society. My mother filtered her genius through a fathead I called father. And now, he's a nice man a very nice man, but, but he, he was profoundly ignorant and he had no idea of the beauty and power of that woman, nor did he ever have to know it, because she never asked him to. She could be gracious and kind until death remembered her. And it did when she was forty-six years old. That's twenty years younger than I am now. And here I am wondering what I'm going to do with my life now that I'm almost grown up. And, and so I, in trying to, I came here to learn how to write the curriculum and I'm very concerned with that, but what am I gonna tell kids? Am I gonna have 'em deal with a battle that should have been won a long time ago or are you going to risk taking a new stand on something that at least appears to you to be truer and saner and more inclusive than the things in which I have riches that leave another poor?

Thanks, John. Samantha. Did I skip? Carol.

Yeah. I think that John really hit the nail on the head about how, at least I would use this cartoon. I think that you can't use the cartoon unless you've been honest with kids for a long period of time about the history of teaching and I think that's very difficult to do, and that's one of the reasons why I came here. I'm always accused of making kids feel cynical or depressed because of the way I teach US history using Howard Zinn's book that's referenced here a lot and using a whole lot of other things. I mean, I begin with the fact that we're gonna be celebrating, excuse me, celebrating this thing about Christopher Columbus. There's also a great article in here about Christopher Columbus and what we should be doing in 1992 as far as resistance to allowing anybody to celebrate that in a, in a positive way. For me, this cartoon said that there is some kind of incredible strength about people who didn't come here of their own accord, who were kidnapped, who were brought here, who were enslaved, who were Jim Crow-ed, who were kept out, who were done a whole lot of things to and continue to believe in process, in democracy, in freedom, in all of the things that this country says that it stands for and never has. And that's what I would use the cartoon for. I would use it as a way of reinforcing this notion that it's OK to have an honest view of American history and that it, it still doesn't need to defeat you because there is a whole nation of people that it never defeated and who continue keeping on and looking for freedom and, and working toward it and that's how I would use it.

Joyce.

I've been, as I've been sitting listening, I'm reminded again that particularly with educators, those of us, that we use language a lot and I have a real thing about language, because in spite of ourselves or because of ourselves, we create pictures as we talk to each other as the elders as we are, and then as we try to help children deal with the diversity of the world that they live in, that we all live in. And so, I just jotted down some of the words that I think that I would then raise questions about. So, as we talk about something called the wall, what I don't hear, is the wall troubling? And how high is the wall? Because if it's too high, then you have to do something. If it's not too high, then there's something else that you can do. And so, the way that we use language, so that as we talk about what is it to be equal, where is the definition in that, what does equal mean? And so, I know that for instance in some of the schools I've taught in, in early years, people wanted the elders and said that we were equal to the children, to the students. Which some of us said, no, that's not really quite the definition that we're trying to promote in this school and other, other members of the elder community said, you know, something else. So, language often for me, is something that I need to listen to and try to figure out how others are receiving it, because we do paint pictures with our words. So, that as we're helping each other deal with difficult issues, such as institutional racism, then how we help children and the language that we use and what we left unsaid. So, that as we say things, I drive into the community. When you say that, I think of THE COMMUNITY in capital letters and is that what other people think of? What does that mean, you drive from a community, I hope. And so, those are the kinds of questions that I hear as people are talking because we're using language which is our, our life. And I just wanted to have us think about the images that we paint, whether or not we need to, and perhaps we need to follow it up with something, and that might be some of the glitches that we get into.

Dottie.

I think that, in part of my reflection by myself, and then looking at each of the days and the work sessions that we've worked with, part of my need to withdraw has been to step away from the intensity of our group, and step away from my own intensity, and try to see where we've had our plan for our goal and our ascension or dissension or however we're heading there if we're zigzagging and see where we're matching or coming close to what I think is the direction that we're trying to follow. And I think that at the end of each session and each evening when I've looked back, the sense that I have, is that we've made tremendous growth and steps, with the pain and sometimes the tension that has evolved and been present in this room. and that when we go away from that, we have a sense that we need something more. We all keep saying we need this curricula, whatever it is that we came here to create. And yet, we all have so much more ground to cover in terms of preparation and design for preparing that curricula and its presentation to students. And I'm wondering if we weren't hoping for too much to occur over the course of a week and in fact, have covered much more than we thought would occur, yet have not been able to see the direction that we've set for ourselves. I think that in, in our earnest desire to be able to go back and say, Oh, here's something I can use now, this is going to make us all feel better about being able to go in there and teach this curriculum. I think that the curriculum is truly still within us, and it is springing forth from the experiences that we've all had, the experiences that we've shared, the arguments, and some of that paper airplane flying that's going on within the group and in some of the smaller sessions. And I think that if we begin to look at those ideas and think about what it is we're going to really take back to our, to our classrooms and our schools. We may not be at the point now where we can write a hard and fast curriculum, but at the point where we can begin to explore a new approach, or try new things, in terms of presenting the old curriculum we've been using, and in raising the consciousness further of the students and the people that we interact with around us. The second thought I have is that while we're going through this stage in development, we are also charged, I think, morally as well as intellectually with the responsibility of continuing the education that we've placed and set forth in our different classrooms and schools around the country. And it's almost as though there are two, there are two parallel paths that are at some point, I hope, going to intersect successfully. And that is that while we're grappling with our prejudices and our aspirations, so too are the young minds that we are working with on a daily basis. And when I look at them, I think it's so nice for them to truly believe all the things we've taught them until they collide with a small example of the change. And I think that the other thing that I would really like to see is to see those children working through sessions of this sort with others. And maybe it means you go home with on the thought of taking ten of your friends and their kids and getting together periodically and, and sitting down and exploring their thoughts and their hopes and aspirations and dreams and their reflections of what they've learned and compare them to your own. And I'm not sure that I'm prepared to look at that either, but it is a thought that's been raised in my mind, that I think there may be enough diversity to make me feel as though I've done more than I think I really have.

Thanks for that. Lyda.

This is somewhat following up with what Joyce said about languages and images and the definition of equality. One of the things I thought about was a Black psychiatrist told me years ago-

Could you speak up?

A Black psychiatrist told me years ago-

Can you start again?

This is to follow up what Joyce was talking about around language and images and also to say that in defining equality, I remember a Black psychiatrist saying to me years ago, It's an easy definition, in this country, everybody is equal but some people are more equal than others. And that's the, that's the dilemma that kids face. I, what I have is this question, you see, about these languages and images and even in, in particular the use of this cartoon. And this cartoon by the way, is a symptom of much larger problems. It is not just an issue of process and understanding history. But what do you do as a teacher who uses this cartoon, and has my kid in class, and my kid comes home and says to me, Ma, you've been teaching me to be proud and to love being Black, but to be Black is to be racist instead of loving America? There we have this very real issue around languages and images, that everything that's out there isn't necessarily used, even if we find creative ways of using it, because what's in there sometimes, sometimes becomes very destructive to the receiver who can only articulate it outside of the classroom, and that's so dangerous. But the second thing is that there are resources to handle it. And it's something that I think I heard you saying, is something that I think I'm going to respond to what you said, and that is there are resources in practically every school system because of legislation, namely Black people. And when Black teachers say, and there's no monolith, everybody doesn't think alike. And when Black teachers start to say, Don't use this, use this. Don't use this, use this. We got to talk about this. This, I don't-this is bothering me. Like I just said, and we've had a discussion. I'm bothered by this. How dare we not listen? How dare we not defer? How dare we not use that resource to say-wait a minute, this is something that I think somebody else may know how to answer better than I. I don't understand all the dynamics, but clearly, if grown people, that's my model grown people, you know, that's what we are, grown people can discuss and have differences about, which is clearly what many of us in this room right now may have some differences about this, then maybe for the sake of the kids' education, in the way that we say, since we come to this, we want a better world to be, maybe it ought to be something that the grown people from that group needs to discuss to come to some consensus with, to communicate to me about that consensus before a decision is made about that particular material, the particular approach to the material because there's obviously some problem with that. That's where, as a parent, I find the greatest dilemma because as a parent, I go in and I say I, I know you're well-intended. This is not a bad/good guy scenario, but you have been destructive. I had a teacher have my child take the position of supporting slavery and couldn't understand, as a learning experience, why I would be so offended. She would have never had anybody else take the position of Hitler and, and defend, and defend the Holocaust. But she would have my kid defend slavery, as a learning experience, to know what it was like to be Southern, and want to enslave people. So, the point being, that there's resources out there, but we choose sometimes to listen, sometimes not to. I'm not saying that there is one answer to tell. We come to consensus somehow in our classroom. The point is, using what resources that exist to come, the proper resources that exist to come to consistency. That's all.

Thanks, Lyda. Lurline.

The, the cartoon, I guess something that I could possibly use, I could use it to deal with issues of stereotype and why we need to teach about stereotype and get children to identify what is stereotype because some things that are stereotype are so close to real things that it's difficult at times for children to understand. Well, when you say all Blacks are musicians, that's a stereotype because all Blacks are not musicians yet there is truth in it because there are Blacks who are musicians. That's what I'm, I'm getting at. Here, we have, Black is ugly, and then we have later on, Black is beautiful. An exercise I have done on several occasions is, just to get people to think of the word Black and two columns, one positive, one negative. And let's, let's ask them to identify the things in the positive column that's related to the word Black and things in the negative column that's related to the word Black, and it's amazing. The negative column always surfaces as the longest. It sometimes takes up, takes up several columns whereas the one with a positive is perhaps just a half a column. Another activity I have done which helps to bring out what are stereotypes is, to have several columns with Black, Spanish-speaking, White, Asian, Native American. And get the group, two groups, one group will think of all the positive images that come to mind based on association, and I stress association with the different groups. And the other one is dealing with all the things based on what they have seen in text or they have just heard. And it's amazing the big difference in the two activities. So, we compare them and you can see well, things that they've read somewhere or they have just heard are merely, mostly focusing on the negative things about the groups and their own stereotypes, whereas the things based on direct association with the group, the lists are never as long but they're also more positive towards the group of people and telling more truths about the groups. And there are some studies going around and some programs, and I can't remember the name of the woman who I first heard with it, on unlearning racism and unlearning stereotypes. And it's so important for us to unlearn some of these things. Not that they're gonna go away from us completely, but it's as though we're going to speak in a different way. Some of us in speaking, we perpetuate stereotypes in our day-to-day language with each other and with children. As presenters, some of us perpetuate stereotypes. So, we need to watch our own language when we are in fact dealing with our peers, dealing with others and training persons because sometimes, we leave the people who we say we are training in a worse position than they were before, because we have used so much loaded language ourselves. The, the term Black racism, I deliberately asked that of Beverly two days ago, because I have found in my experience that very often, when I'm dealing with a Black-White situation, that I am told that it's by the White person, Oh, but you are just as racist because you're a racist against me. And I try to show them - well, that's not racism. I know I am prejudiced, for we all are, but there is a big difference, whereas with one thing you have been empowered by laws, and that's why what it is that you display towards me, White to Black is racism but what I display towards you is really not racism. It's pre-and I, I think somewhere, we need to give some definitions to the terms. I have seen one publisher that really sets out to define all these terms that we use like stereotypes, institutional racism and so on.It's the interracial books for children in, in one of their publications, they have these definitions. But do we use them, and do we teach them, and do we let children even find out the meanings of them so that they become a part of their, their daily usage. By using things, we understand them better. And I just think that we, we need to help each and everyone, and our children, to have these things in our, in their vocabulary and our vocabulary, use them, pick up on things when we hear them on the streets or see them somewhere and be able to discuss them. And I, I find that many lessons could be done around this cartoon, and around the other one, which seems to give a lot of power again, to, to the White population. That's the first impression I have when I read the other one. And what are we doing again in terms of getting power in the other groups? And there are so many people of color groups that are coming in and making, trying to make life but there is no power with those groups. And until we can help people to use some of these things which they will see. If we don't use them in the classroom, they're gonna see them elsewhere. And until we can discuss some of these things, we are not going to be able to change, we're not going to be able to get people to understand that certain things are wrong by thinking of blacks always in a negative light, is wrong. If anything goes wrong in our society, we say it's Black Monday, it's Black Tuesday or it's black this or it's black that. And automatically, as a Black person when I hear it, I cringe, because I say once more that's another negative that's attributive to black. And that is why as soon as you walk in a place, they hear me on the phone, some of you will get a job on the phone but by the time you walk in a building and they see your complexion and your complexion is so dark that you cannot be mistaken for anything but what your complexion tells you you are, you don't get that job. And it's because of this negative thing that's always attributed to Black. And I'm just hoping that if we see things like this, that we will look for the different lessons behind it that we can use and help to trigger discussions around these things and try and see how we can give supplemental material to combat the racism and the stereotypes and these other things that are in them.

Pat.

There was a couple things.

Speak up.

There was a couple things. One thing was reflecting back to the hair thing. This past year, had an experience with the director of, of the Brookline Metco sharing with parents how some of the kids won't take swimming because-the Black females won't take swimming because their hair will go back to being nappy. And so, they wind up getting F in their, in their, in their physical education program, when they're scholars and they could get A in their physical education program. I'm sure that happens at my high school with the, the Black females there. But we had this young woman who wanted to come in and talk to the students. She's the director the swimming program at Harvard and she was an Olympic champion, a swimming champion and she wanted to come in. She's a Black female. She wanted to come in and talk to the young people about how, you know, they don't have to worry about that, they can still swim etc. That was just, the reason I brought that out because there are other, other things around the hair issue and etc. that, that bothers our young people. Because I was just thinking back some of this stuff with Linda. But another, another thing I wanted to bring up just this week, we're going through all the things that we've gone through and thinking about some of the things that Dot had said earlier, there are times, she calls it her 4:30 group and they're reflecting and stuff, there are times when I think that probably a lot of us probably felt like we needed to like go in the corner or go someplace and sort of reflect and, and, and sort of do some self-evaluating and stuff about some of the things that went on this week. Also, there were a few emotional explosions that I felt we should have elaborated more on and, and it was around dealing with language and the use of, of, of language and how the use of language can really paint pretty, and other, pictures.

Joe.

Yeah. Earlier in the week, when I was talking about the North Carolina story, and I was talking about the fact that the Eyes of the Prize [sic] was used kind of intermittently, I think this is the reason why. Teachers refrain from using this, refrain from using the Eyes of the Prize [sic] for anything other than information sources because to use it, and to really effectively use it, you've got to call into, into play a whole series of skills where you teach kids how to one, define their differences and then out of those defining differences, to arrive at, at an understanding of what the whole is, and that takes time. You can't do that in a clipped time-on-task lesson. So, what we find happening in classrooms in North Carolina that may be true nationally, is that we play it safe. We just do the basic facts. We do objective testing and move it along, and in doing that, we're doing damage to our democratic system because we're not teaching kids to be really effective confronters, consensus builders. Those are the skills that are gonna help us survive as a democratic nation. If we're gonna be citizenship education teachers, that's the essential thing that we have to teach. There's no single piece of factual information that we can ever give our kids that will have the power of helping us preserve our democracy, that's as valuable as teaching the consensus-building skills, and that's what I'm really hoping that we can get as a social studies profession in North Carolina out of the Eyes of the Prize [sic] materials is to use this as a vehicle to teach us to be better teachers about the civic democracy that we're a part of. And I appreciate the opportunity in this institute to have learned how to do that. I'm far more sensitive to language and the idea that language has the power. I was- intellectually, I knew it. I know it at a much different level now and I appreciate that. I had a sheet that I was gonna hand out earlier in the week that's full of language errors that I now recognize as language errors. And if I could hand that out and then show you the, the changes at some point. I'll just pass it around. It was my structured response or my speaking notes to question A, the question that's on that sheet and I think you can see the obvious errors that are there that, that we need to change.

Just want to respond briefly again on language and jumping off what Lurline has said. Again, the way we use language, so the prejudice, discrimination, stereotypes, racism, they are often used interchangeably when we're talking about Black-White relationships, other people of color and White people. And so, racism is not the same as discrimination or prejudice, and we need to help each other understand that. It makes it a little bit easier to help young people understand. So, I think Lurline has already said that, you know, and Lyda brought it up earlier, that prejudice plus power, or Judy quoted Beverly. And, and that's very important. So, we really need to add the word power to our vocabulary, and begin to figure out what that means. And the issue of, of the language. And it's a lot easier for us to say when we hear a racial slur, or some incident, we say, Oh, that person's just prejudiced. Well, that's not very helpful many times, because if we don't put it in the context perhaps in which it happened, and we don't define it, because even the word prejudice becomes difficult for many of us to try to define. Discrimination is an action word. And so, as we look at this, the interchangeable, we use the words interchangeably and what I'm advocating is that [clears throat] we think and not use the words inter-

-see people inside. Changing everybody so that nobody's holding anybody down and everybody's up together, we could get along better.

Bob.

Today's orienting question, the first part of it, seems to me a cutting-edge issue, that you may want to take up or not depending on the mood of the group, but the question says [reads] "Some argue that the civil rights movement early on was a search for community. William Raspberry and others today argue that the movement is searched for proof of victimization and its appeal is to difference. What supports this view, what argues against this point of view? How can we judge the relative merits of the argument?" The, the idea of victimization is another term, terminology, another language matter that has, it seems to me it is the cutting-edge issue because right now in the nineties because it will determine-it is, it is used in the in the official discourse as reason to not advance in areas of affirmative action for example, in the areas of other forms of empowerment, psychological, psychic and actual economic and political empowerment. Is he saying, Raspberry, that by definition the movement for empowerment is by definition a search for victimization? Is, is the search for empowerment a search for victimization? To redress grievances. Or is it, is the search for empowerment, simply a search for power and growth and as one proceeds along that way, one finds the impediments and must necessarily deal with those things. I think that the victimization part of it is, is related somewhat to what we've been talking about in terms of our own personal growth and self-esteem too, because some of these writers argue that the, the stance, Raspberry would say I suspect, the stance to seek proof of victimization is ultimately unempowered. I, I throw that out, because I'm groping between all of these, these issues because I think that this is the cutting-edge issue. They don't, I, part of my feeling is that Raspberry and Steele and others don't really give a good analysis or critique of what, or include in their critique the, the very fact of institutionalized racism. But I'm not sure yet that, that I have firmly enough in mind, I mean, I have feelings and I have evidence, but institutionalized racism is one of those things where like it's like a fish in water, and the fish doesn't know a lot about water. It's, it's just over everything that, it's the entire environment. So, to prove to Raspberry that institutionalized racism is an objective fact and to point it out is not a search for victimization but is a search for empowerment, is the answer for the 90s, is the question and the answer for the '90s, it seems to me. And as we go back to our schools and whatnot as we advance wherever we are, we've got to, we got, that's the case, I think that's the case we have to make.

Dottie.

But along with that case is the responsibility that when you raise someone's consciousness to the point where they are willing to internalize that and begin taking action and standing up for themselves. And I'm talking particularly about young students, you need to be prepared. And I think we have that moral obligation in a compelling way, to be their support system when they try it out. And I say that because, I look at the young adolescents that have gone through our early elementary schools, and they've had all this, this education about what's good about them and feeling good and they're great and they can work with each other and they're doing real well. And they get up there and all of a sudden, the first time that they get up in class and they say something that's coming from their heart and their brain and it's all matched up well and they're saying something that truly is not something that would be unacceptable, but because it is received and the message is somehow threatening, because that kid is too aggressive, or that kid is too cocky, or that kid's got a problem with his attitude or her attitude, we are no longer there to say, It's OK. You did the right thing. You said it. You were polite. You were straightforward, you know. You voiced your opinion. You were right on target but it was the other person's problem. There's a whole lot of other persons out there especially within the educational system, that cannot deal with that and will do everything they can to turn that into a recycled aluminum can, you know what I mean? It will just be compressed and put in the bag, and the next time that that child comes out again, they're going to be very leery, if they come out again.

If they come out at all.

And that's what concerns me. That's why I say that we have to have another idea and another parallel plan, that we may not do the right thing every time. We may not always be prepared for it, but the thing that I struggle with more than anything else, and in particular looking at my, my youngest students now, is what will happen to them when they go out that door? And some of them have already met it, going home or out into the other portions of their world, and are, and are meeting that. And it is not a comfortable confrontation at times because they are not always prepared to understand that it has nothing to do with them, and the message they were sending. It has to do with the reception and the person that was receiving it, and their inability to accept it. And I'm not sure how we can do tha,t but I think we have to keep our minds open and be responsible to the issue of some sort of extended support system for them when we send them out there, because we are truly giving them the ideas that I don't know that we are willing to carry it. I mean, I'm saying that from my heart because I look at my son and the first time he came home from his, his first overnight with his scout troop, he was so excited. He's gonna be at scout. Now, you finally let me go out here and be in an integrated scout troop and they went off and they were going up the trail. And the first thing that the scout master said to me when we went to pick him up at the end of the three weeks was, There was a problem and I need to speak with you about this because I think you want to be prepared when you meet your son. And I thought holy Jesus, mother and Joseph. What happened? I thought, oh, my heart's ticking. My son's got all, you know, he's got this blood disorder. Did he get hurt? Did he have to have a transfusion? Did something come up? I think oh God, there are bears in the woods. Did a raccoon get him? He didn't take the food out of his pocket, you know, all those awful things. And he said, There was a confrontation on the trail coming into camp. Confrontation on the trail coming into camp? What happened? Now, the other side of me comes. I says, Yeah, well, tell me the story now. I got a new attitude for you now. Go on, tell me the story. One of the young scouts has been taking shots at Macio all year. You know, he's been doing some racially unacceptable things. And I thought to myself, [unintelligible] What's happening here? On the trail, he called Macio the N-word. I said, I beg your pardon? He called Macio the N-word on the trail. And before we could do anything about it, Macio threw off his backpack, ran down the trail, knocked the boy at the ground and they wrestled down the hill. And I had to stop because my first thought was not - are they physically OK? My first thought was-what did you do? What happened? Well, when we finally got the boys separated, and he wanted to reassure me that everyone separated them because the whole troop abandoned the trail and went down there with them, We had to calm them down and then we let the boys talk. And I thought-one, my son has never been in a physical confrontation other than wrestling like a bear cub at home with everybody else, or his buddies. And I thought, I don't think the boy even knows how to fight. So, I'm thinking immediately, what was on his mind? He's running up against this big kid, and this is a bigger, physically a larger child. When he did this, what was he thinking? What did he hope to accomplish? I know what he felt, but what was he actually going to do? And I was, you know, I said to him, his father, I said, Well, we have to be prepared for this. And his father said, No, we don't have to be prepared for this. We just have to be ready for whatever he says. Now, we went to meet him and talk with him about what happened while the other parents were going to meet their son and talk with them about what happened. And all the other scout parents were being told what happened, because the whole troop had been involved in this, and have witnessed this. And all the parents, you know, the big smile. We're gonna see our darlings. We were crushed. And for a good thirty-five minutes after we had our private conversations with our children, none of us could look at each other or speak to each other. We all took our little family pockets and went off to different clusters in the woods and communed with nature. Finally, when we had to come together at supper time, the two fathers of the two boys involved came across the campfire and spoke to each other openly for the first time in front of the entire group. And I know my husband well. He tries very, very hard to understand the other side, or the other perspective but deep down inside, he believes in protecting his child and if it means the shotgun by the nightstand, that's what it is. And I thought - what's he going to say in front of all these people? What's he going to say in front of his sons? And my heart went right up into my throat while I watched him. He said, you know, the two fathers extended their hands. And I could see, you know, Jerry is a big man and his hand was trembling as he put it out there. And he said, You know, your son gave my son the first real lesson of his manhood on this trail and for that, I want to thank you. And I thought to myself - are you crazy? You're thanking this man for his son calling your son this, on-and then I stopped myself and I said, OK, just let him handle it. And while the other father was looking at Jerry, I could see the look in his face he was very tense coming to Jerry because he was physically smaller than Jerry, and because I think he was afraid that Jerry's response was not going to be anything near what it appeared to be. And he told Jerry, I'm sorry for having been the person that caused it. And I stopped because that's the first time that I have ever heard a parent in a situation like that take responsibility for their child's behavior, thoughts or actions. And I relaxed a little bit, and they took and put their arms around each other and then all the other fathers moved to the center of the circle and they all went off to swim and fish, without saying a word to the rest of us. And I'm sitting here on the log thinking there must have been some resolution in what we just witnessed, but I'm not sure what the resolution was, because the language was not apparent to the rest of us. And to this day, no one in that troop has said one word about the incident ever again. I think that we learned from it. I think that we all needed a support system very, very much when we were there. And I also think that the test that we were placed in the center of, somehow was able to resolve itself without us having to think about it. And I think it was because of all the education and learning that has gone on, over whatever eons we've been doing this. But I think again, that I don't know that I would have had the moral strength to extend my hand across that campfire as the parent of the child that had just been through a very serious trauma. And I look at that child every day and I thank God that he walked away from that, because he does not seem to carry anything in his heart. And that's why I say, I think that what we are educating our children toward, we need to be prepared to support, despite all our own prejudices and beliefs and fears, because I truly have trepidation based on my personal fears about how they will survive going forth with this new approach, new belief, new knowledge.

I think we will take a ten-minute break at this point. Ten minutes.

-that you had a great time. But I wanted to tell you that I had a great time too, and it was just fabulous. And until I could say that with you all, it really wasn't complete. I had to get closure on that as well. So, I am here for a lot of reasons, but one of the main reasons is to just get a sense of how powerful such a group as this, around the topic that you're discussing, and the issues and concerns that are emerging, will have impact for further development and for further work that may spin off from this in association with the museum, for varied and different activities. So, it's very meaningful me to-for me to get this association with you and then to be with Phredd and the other colleagues that I have worked with in the past. We are the, the vendors now. You're getting this little break and here come the sales people. Only everything that I have for you really is free and there are no charges for any of the services or the materials that I bring to you, because you've already paid for them with your tax dollars. I mean, they really are yours anyway. And what I bring are the materials that come by way of the US Office of Education Title IV of the Civil Rights Act that created the Desegregation Assistance Centers. Some, nearly eight years after the Civil Rights Act, people felt that the Civil Rights Act needed some teeth in terms of enabling school districts to go about what was a part of the desegregation that was taking place at that time. It took a long time really, to put it in place. That act created Desegregation Assistance Centers in, in forty-four sites throughout the United States. And some of you may be well familiar with the Race Deseg Centers, there were National Origin Centers, and then there were Gender Equity Centers. Now, what's happened is that, in the wisdom of Washington, around 1986, it was felt and believed that those centers could be collapsed and all put under one roof. And at that time, there were ten Deseg Assistance Centers created for the ten regions of the country and under one roof in the ten sites reside now the Race Deseg, Race, National Origin and Gender Deseg Assistance Centers. They all don't use the words for their titles as Deseg Assistance Centers. We refer to ours as the New England Center for Equity Assistance. It is a title for Deseg Assistance Center that services the six New England states. Those of you that are from other states, know that you have a Deseg Assistance Center with another name, that is not exactly the same as our name. And you may, or I hope you will in the future, have an opportunity to call upon them for the resources that they have for your school district. What the Deseg Assistance Centers do is that they bring services to educators as they work with students. We bring services to the community as well, but it's always by way of the school district. If we work with parents or with citizens or other members of the community, it's always linked to the school district. The dollars that come to support the Deseg Assistance Center are dollars that are used as, to provide technical assistance, some training, some very specific work with teachers. Teachers often receive stipends, if they are so designated, for the work that we do. And we work closely and collaboratively with other agencies, not as much as I would like, and to attend to the issues that are emerging and surfacing in the school districts in this particular region. So, given that we're talking about all the way up to the top of Canada and parts of New Hampshire and Vermont to the southernmost tip of Rhode Island and Connecticut, those are the, the areas that we serve, the west to Connecticut and as far east as Boston, the six New England states. The upper tier, as you probably well-surmised, probably has less than two percent people of color. They're Native Americans in Vermont and New Hampshire that are in great need of the services that we provide, and the density of people of color rests within the southern tier in Connecticut and in Massachusetts and in Rhode Island as well, but not as much. So, that's the region that we service. I think it's as important to service the school districts that call us that have absolutely no people of color, as well as the school districts that have people of color, because clearly, everybody's got to get the same message. So, we spend our time, we spend our dollars, doing this work. Now, there are some products that are associated with the work that we do because we not only bring the technical assistance to the school districts, but we loan materials and we have a vast resource center that has print, as well as non-print, materials that are available for you. And I sent a box down earlier this week, and I hope that everybody got a copy of this booklet, which includes all the print materials that we loan. All you have to do, if you're in this six-state region, and if you're not, you can just call me, and you can still do it, but I won't tell if you don't tell. But you just use this booklet, and you'll find some of the things, including Eyes, including, Eyes, Eyes I and it's in here. And I think we have two sets of Eyes, we'll probably be getting, if we don't have, Eyes II. But those things are on loan for you, and people use them in the most creative ways that they can. There are also print materials where you can come to the resource center, make an appointment, sit for hours if you like, and use the things that are there. There are print materials that are just totally free for you to request and they're included in this little flyer, and I hope you got this, so that you can take a look at some of the things that you might want to either have in your own collection. And there's some that are at nominal cost, and that would include postage. This will probably go into a revision within the next year and it'll include more things. This, I'm going quickly because we've been given a little bit of a warning that you have a lot more business. So, after I finish, you can slow me down and, and ask me about things that maybe I've covered too quickly. This little booklet, is a booklet that we put together this year capitalizing on all of the places in New England that have particular references to African American history and multicultural and women's history and women's education. And if you're not from this region, and you don't have something like this in your region, it wasn't a hard thing to do. Most of these little abstracts were in other books, and all we did was cull through and try and find where they were and put them together and make them easy for teachers to use, when they plan field trips or have students write or visit, while they're on vacation, and to take a look at things like this. So, this was a very, very easy and quick pamphlet for us to put together. And we are in the business of publishing and disseminating information and making books. And we will be also providing the, the new Afro-American source book, Bill Parson's book, as soon as it's ready. We'll be one of the disseminating agents for that as well. If you didn't get a copy of this, this is just the boilerplate piece that tells you what NICEA is, the New England Center for Equity Assistance, the Title IV Deseg Assistance Center for New England. And then inside of that packet is a sheet that contains the staff development programs that we make available generally to school districts. It's not as easy for us to bring a program directly to a teacher, and most of the teachers that we work with usually work in collaboration with other groups or with committees, and will request that these training programs, these workshops that are made available for teachers for free for your school district can be scheduled on our calendar. I want to call to your attention "The Change Game." And I, there may be some people here that have played "The Change Game." "The Change Game" is a simulation of how to move innovation, a concept, an idea, through a bureaucracy. And it gives you ways of trial and error, how to be successful, how to build coalitions, when you make your mistakes and how to rectify and correct them, and to go back, and to see if there is a way to institutionalize change. It's a game that was developed by The Network, a company that I work. And it allows people to see how you can move change in such a way that you can have a full impact for more than a few people and you don't die doing it all by yourself. It helps you build coalitions and helps you know how to coalesce and to join with other people in moving an idea. And we were very fortunate to be able to have all the Metco directors come and play "The Change Game" with us. There are some other, and many of you are probably familiar with the other workshops and training programs that are included in this list as well. Lurline has been very much a part of The Network over the years that I've been associated with it, and she knows that some of these programs have been used in the area that she services as well. There is one other thing that I did bring for you, and that you don't have. And it seemed like I parked my car in Tewksbury when I was bringing this box down the hill this morning, in the rain. But I wanted to make sure that you got them for two reasons. This is a publication that surfaced, and I hope some of you have seen it, that talks about the re-segregation of public schools. And it was put together by the Deseg Assistance Center directors and we use the acronym DAX. And it has in the back page, the list of all the Desegregation Assistance Centers. And so, for those of you that are not from Massachusetts, you'll have access to the ones that are in your region. But it has some of the Office of Civil Rights statistics that look at the enrollment in states by race. It also includes the, the enrollment and the percentages by race. It also has a number of LEP students and it has enrollment by sex, special education and those are all really critical areas that we have to vigilantly sort of watch and pay close attention to, as we go about doing the desegregation work that we do, for excellence in school, and for high performance for all students. That's the goal and that's the purpose of all this. So, it has briefly discussed topical issues around what's emerging in the desegregation of schools, and I want all of you to have a copy of this. Now, you really weren't going to get me for this program. You were going to get my daughter, and my daughter, this is a brag, here we go talking about one's children, but Leslie Fields is a lawyer for the NAACP and as you all know, NAACP is in Los Angeles, and she just couldn't get here today and, to do the work that she had to do out in California. And as I was listening this morning, and trying to glean from the group on the few times that I've been here, some of the major points that are emerging around how we can build curriculum, and how we can address all the answers, and how we can make sure that we cover all the needs around race, gender and national origin. And I was thinking that, that all these things are going to have to go into doing that for us. But one of the things that Leslie would have talked about, had she been here, would have been just one of the small steps that's occurred because of what's happened before, and because we have Eyes, and because of all the legislation that occurred subsequent to that. But very recently, and it was in April that, you know, that the Hate Crimes Statistics Act was signed by George Bush and my daughter was one of the lawyers from NAACP that helped move that through. And so, she got a chance to get one of the redline copies of the act which is the act that Bush signed and she worked closely with Paul Simon on this. But I, like you, get real discouraged sometimes but then I think that all of these people that we're touching, including our own children, including our kids that surface through those, those situations, or it's just one other kid and another youngster where they use the N-word, but those make lifetime impacts, I think, on them. And I think that having this Hate Crime Statistics Bill which means that in communities all over this country they can no longer say that that was a rag burning on your lawn when somebody burned a cross but that was the real burning of a cross and the police have to record that as a hate crime. And then we can have documentation about hate crimes in communities, and people don't dismiss them, and do away with them, and not count them. Or when any groups of people are beat up, as they make their ways through the streets of cities, whatever their persuasion or sexual preference or the way they look, it's not because they bumped into somebody, but those were hate crimes, and that those crimes will be recorded. So, this Hate Crimes Statistics Act I brought to share with you, that, it's one of the things that when we sort of get glum and down and low and we think that it's tough for us, that I mean, this is on the books and it's on the books because of what happened before, and because of what we're talking about. So, it's really not an answer that we're looking for but it's a lot of things that we're doing to make this work. And I think that I've covered all the things that I have to share with you at this point, but I always remember something that I've forgotten. And we thought that I would bring some of the resources quickly for you, so that you can peruse through them at your leisure, and then Phredd would talk about the very substantive work that Facing History does, in terms of the content and the coursework that they bring to schools, in addition to the services and materials that I bring from-

It's over there. I always, I always have to look for it, but I'll get it for you, and I'll make sure, but I won't do it now, and Phredd can go ahead.

Could you repeat the date? Did you say the Hate Crime Act was passed or Bill was signed?

It was approved and signed George Bush on April 23rd. We're very proud of this. In fact, we're so proud of it that my daughter says that I can pay for having it framed for her office, for her-

-but that's the way it looks. That's the, the red line. As you know, Bush signs lots of them and that's the red line bill, and that's the bill that they give to people that are there for the signing. And it's very short but if, if we can, I would very much like to perhaps Xerox it for you all, so that you can have a copy of it too. I think we can put this on a Xerox machine. It's very, very short. Paul Simon from Illinois was instrumental, and I'll read you the letter that he wrote to Leslie Fields. [reads] "Dear, Leslie, Enclosed, you will find a red line copy of the Hate Crime Statistics Act. Your hard work and commitment were critical to the bill's passage. I certainly appreciated all you did. While we all know that this is but one step in the fight against prejudice, it is a step we can all be proud of. Thank you again. I look forward to working with you in the future." And she would have had a lot more to tell you about this work than her mother.

I just want to get an opportunity to say thank you as well, and I'm going to try and do as, as brief semi-non-commercial as possible because I'm, I'm not crazy about always being in a position of having to do a commercial. And for the fact that there's so many people here that have had some contact with Facing History and Ourselves, which is a national non-profit educational organization, that does teacher training and curriculum development. Before we even got into that, I wanted to share like Jackie did, in terms of the excitement of being a part of the planning committee, and a part of the group that brought such a variety of people and hearts and minds together, because it's been really exciting, even though I haven't had the chance to, to be here every single day, the days I have been was important. And particularly, I think about last night as I'm sure so many of you have, in terms of, it wasn't just the music that was so important there, but it was the spirit, the culture that was shared and the history, and, and the language and the feeling and everything that really made a connection to talking about what came before, and that there were these people that had this rich culture that brought it forth. And it brought into mind again to me about the whole legacy, the thing that I know we've talked about as part of the planning committee on Eyes, and the work that I do with Facing History is, how do we keep that legacy going? How do we make the connection in kids' lives today, and adults lives today, to the past? Because of all the kinds of references and the issues that were raised around language and institutional racism that they didn't just start in the 1950s or whenever date we want to say they did. They have a long legacy. And that kind of feeling I got last night really helped solidify that for me more, as the kind of work that Facing History and Ourselves does, by looking at the past to make connections to the decisions that we look, we make today, and how they affect our lives. The, the things that, what Facing History does is look at a case study in history to make the connections and to look at questions-Joe mentioned about what are we about doing here, in terms of citizenship education, dealing with issues of discrimination, against racism, looking at issues of, of race, class and gender, and how they affect our decisions. When you determine terms of looking at institutional racism, I was thinking again, when that was brought up today, I think back and look at when we-because the case study that we use in history, that was chosen by the organization when it was started in 1976, is the case study of looking at the Holocaust. When I say the Holocaust, it's not the Holocaust of the bodies and the actual genocide period when the war started in, in '42 but it's looking at the kinds of steps that led to that kind of decision-making. It look, looks at how a democracy failed. And again, when I think about how we have to talk about institutional racism today, the fact that in looking at that period of history, it's looking at institutional racism because the decisions were made, based on race that led to the ultimate end of a people being annihilated. And in fact, that's how, that's what we use to go into classrooms throughout the nation to talk with educators in terms of the training that we do, and some of the curriculum resources that we provide with print materials, AV materials to try to get them to see that past. But also because, you know yourselves, in the conversations that came up today and over these, these past few days, that people talk, that there is tension in terms of when you really come to grips with talking about racism, particularly racism that's in your own immediate life, and the kind of effect that that's had on you. What we've chosen to do is to take a step back, and to look at a period that seems very removed when you talk about forty-five years ago, soon fifty years ago, that it enables people to come in contact with each other and to pro-have a dialogue about situations that happened through that period and the kinds of racist things that were happening then, and the kinds of decisions that everyday people made. I think that's the kind of thing that's really important, is not holding up the Hitlers or the, the Jesse Helms, or the other kinds of-the KKK, or those people as the, as the individuals to be afraid of, but it's looking at the tendency of human behavior, and looking how each one of us, at any given point in time, depending on the situation has the capability to, to inflict some, some pain as, as Dottie was talking about in terms of her own child, or some, some death, a murder against someone else and it's making that connection. In doing that, in looking at these resources in terms of the first resource book that we've put together, which is called _Holocaust and Human Behavior_, which is in the process of being rewritten now, it was challenged to, by, to us by students that we've worked with nationally as well as educators that...OK, it's all well and good to know about the past and to talk about the decisions and the difficulties that people made, but what do you do with that? Where do you go with it? How do you make decisions now that this information, to go forward and to do something with that? And that is what the challenge was for us to look into that, and to look into terms of how people make coalitions, to look at how people come together when they have very different views and very different backgrounds to make some kind of change, to affect some change, to really look and try to make democracy work and to do what this new resource book came out to be called _Choosing to Participate_, when people make decisions about choosing to participate. One of the, quote, "gifts" that I have for you is a copy of this resource guide.

As if you don't have enough stuff now, but I know as a teacher myself, whenever somebody came around to give stuff, I didn't say no. I'd take it and then look through it and decide what I was going to do with it later. But hopefully, it is something that you, you will really work with. Because in doing a lot of the work that we've done, in looking at what was happening throughout the world in terms of Europe, it was a challenge to again, what were we doing in the United States, in terms of that war, in terms of world history? And this is a focus on looking at the traditions from colonial period up to today, in terms of the kinds of things that people have done to work towards some, some equitable situation, to work to participate to make democracy stronger. One of the things, in terms of, also the connection of when I think about the civil rights movement, especially in 1950s, think about the energy and, and, and that scene is the period that the civil rights movement began. But I'm also thinking about the soldiers, the African American male soldiers that were in World War Two, that were in, some of them that were in World War I, that were fighting, quote for "democracy" and fighting for freedom, but freedom for people for, for people that they didn't know, but also for something that they didn't have themselves. And I'm thinking about the energy and the excitement and the anger and the frustration that those individuals came back out of World War II with, going into some of the concentration camps, going into these countries and looking to see the kind of inhumanity that happened to a people, and coming home and knowing the kind of rights that they did not have themselves, yet knowing that in foreign countries, not that there wasn't any discrimination or racism or prejudice there, but that they were treated much more royally than they were here. And those are the kinds of things that, I feel, help spur and push the kind of attitude to, to decide that we're gonna push further for our own rights in this country, and still pushing for that. One of the other things that I want to say about this resource book is, one of the things I've talked with students about, and adults, is that again as, as on the first day on Sunday when we looked at the promotional piece that was used to be taken around to different people in the initial Eyes to, to get funding and to kind of get the word out, is that focus on Rosa Parks, and you saw the energy there and the kind of the community that went together and pulled together there, but I also say again in my work to try to connect past history to that, is I think about a person that is just recently, or I should say recently for me and recently for a lot, getting a lot more focus, is a woman that fought what you would call segregation in 1950s, Jim Crow in the 1890s and during the Reconstruction period, I'm talking about Ida B. Wells-Barnett, and the kind of work that she did to fight Jim Crow, when she was forced off of a train car that was a segregated, or quote "Jim Crow," train car, having went through, won the case. I mean, as an African American woman, took the case to court, won it, unfortunately later to have it repealed and a kind of frustration at that that led to-I just want to read a brief quote from her about that, that reaction that she wrote in her diary where it says about her reaction to having lost the, the suit. It said, [reads] "I had hoped such great things from my suit, for my people generally. I had firmly believed all along that the law was on our side, and would, when we appealed to it, give us justice. I feel shorn of that belief and utterly discouraged, and just now if it were possible, I would gather my race in my arms and fly far away with them. God, is there no-God, is there no redress, no peace, no justice in this land for us? Thou hast always fought the battles of the weak and oppressed. Come to my aid and teach me what to do but I am sorely bitterly disappointed." I'm talking about one individual there, that was attacked based on her race, and based on her gender, that didn't give up. She was one individual that went on and then took on a whole anti-lynching movement, and against, again, discrimination. And it was through her, and the work that she did in affiliation with other organizations, that is talked about in this resource book here, that talks about the kind of connection that, it's not one of us working together. It's how we as individuals, and as groups, and where we go out from here, and we'll just multiply in terms of that, that idea of a movement to bring people together to fight for something. I mean, it was through some of the work that she did that we got, you referenced the NAACP, that we got from the Niagara movement, with W.E.B. du Bois, the NAACP's founding and on from that. So, it's kind of remembering those kinds of things and looking at that and looking at those traditions in the past as well as the kinds of other self-help kinds of things, the things about homelessness, the whole situation about homeless society today and making the connections again back to settlement houses and things in the past that was set up by nonprofit sectors to try to tap into that and understand that. And lastly, I want to end with the, the piece in here. It's also in terms of the last chapters, looking at the piece that oftentimes gets left out of any kind of history, any kind of social movement is the young people. And it's not so much what we can do for them, but it's the power that they have to do for and with us. And it's looking at the kinds of things that young people have done in, throughout history. And one in particular, where there's a focus on a, a interest group of students a mixed group of students at Brookline High School that came together wanting to know, they call themselves the Third World Awareness Club because they wanted to know more about the third world. They wanted to know more about their background in these other cultures. Their association there, and the kind of work that they did together, led them to decide and push Brookline Retirement Board to divest monies from South Africa. These are young people, high school students, that faced a lot of obstacles, and were told that, Look, you know, it's going to cost us more money if we take money out of South Africa or divest this. Oh, well, we can do it but we'll do it on our timetable. And through connecting, these young people got individuals like Mel King involved. And Mel King stood up, not for himself, but as a voice for those young people there that said, Look, you can make a decision. You're gonna make that decision now, or we're not leaving this room until you give these students a decision, a date about when things will be divested. And it's that kind of thing, that kind of energy that I, I want us to hold on to. Because the kind of thing that I hold on to and that constant, not memorializing history, but recognizing that there are things and people and events that happened prior to us getting here, and we have to gain the strength from that. Sorry for my sermon. Thank you. The museum tours can give you more background in terms of some of the kinds of activities and things that Facing History does which are in-service workshops, tons of different things as well as the conferences that we give every year. Questions or we're at time?

Questions?

The goodies. We want the books.

I have, I have a question though, because we really do need to, to hear from educators around designing the things that educators would like to have, the most meaningful things. And I would really like to hear from you, if you had your druthers around a technical assistance or workshop or in-service, if you had any ideas that you would like to share with me, I would, I would welcome hearing that.

Russell, you had a question?

None of us [unintelligible].

OK, all right.

Jackie, do you already know what [unintelligible] do.

But even if you don't, just if you had some ideas.

I just would like to see what you already did.

OK.

Yale Child Study Center.

No. I thought it was a Desegregation Center.

It was, and that, that one's gone-

From the book, also the redline letter.

The red line?

Yeah, good. I just want to get a close-up shot of it, OK?

All right.

If that's allowed.

Both or at the same. I can't hold them both.

No. One at a, one at a time.

At a time. OK, this is the-

Your list of what the network-

OK, that. I didn't bring that. I just brought this but I could get that, OK.

Right. You can stand where you're standing.

OK. This is the-

OK. How's that, looks good? OK, one more second, please. OK. Thank you.

Is everything OK?

Get the full person in there.

Did everybody sign the videos and slides and [unintelligible] photos of preference? All right.

Thank you.

What did you say? The video and photo?

We'll, we'll send it around that way.

Send it, send it over here.

The persistence of people like Ruth Batson and people like Jack Mendelson, our next presenter. And Jack has really been a stalwart in every, every phase and stage of working for that passion for justice that is the freedom movement. All of the conversations that we've been having this week, I'm sure Jack would have loved to have been here and listening, learning from you, as well as contributing some of his own experiences. So, I'm glad to welcome for a presentation now, Jack Mendelsohn.

Power. Power. Power is the ability to achieve moral purpose. Do you recognize that?

No.

Martin Luther King Jr, essay called, "Black Power." A lot of people don't know he wrote an essay on Black power but he did. It's brilliant. And I bring it up because, he defined the contradiction that many people experience, or think they experience, between love and power. His movement of course, was associated with love. He was trying to speak out the truth that love and power are not necessarily moral properties at all, and that it's a mistake to present the premise that they are. They can be, and as King put it, power without love can be cruel and abusive, but love without power, he said, can be sentimental and ineffective. Well, all of that came to my mind as this incredible workshop has been going on, this institute, because in the times that I have been able to be here, I have realized how much power there is in this group, incredible amount of potential and actual power. And it certainly seems to me to be the kind of power that is motivated by love. It's the kind of power that wants to achieve for all human beings, the riches that are possible in the gift of human life. And so, it's been very impressive for me to have had an opportunity just to be a part of this from the very beginning, the planning of it. And I want to express my own personal gratitude to the people of the three cooperating institutions that made this possible. The Museum of Afro-American History, where we were last night for an unforgettable evening certainly. That Larry Watson is something, isn't he, but so is, so is everybody else who-but most people perhaps don't know that Larry Watson is what you saw last night, extraordinary musicologist and musician but he's also a very important official at Harvard University and he's quite a burr under the hide of the Harvard University officials, let me tell you, because he's been leading the fight at Harvard now for some time, to get Harvard to realize how racist its practices are. There is institutional racism conducted every day of the week by the people of the best will in the world, people who really believe in love for humanity and the human race. But anyway, where was I going with that? I can't remember. I wanted to be sure to say something about Larry-

The three institutions. You were talking about the three institutions.

The three institutions last night.

The three institutions. Bless you. Well, the first, the first one is the Museum of Afro-American History where we met last night and where I want to say a few words-Oh, no, no. The second, the second institution is the Lincoln Filene Center at Tufts University with Tufts University as the host of our time here and our place here. And I'm awfully sorry that Rob Hollister hasn't been here for this, because he's been one of the fairly prominent people in putting this all together, but maybe it was explained to you, probably was, either Rob's family or his spouse's family, I'm not sure which, scheduled their famous family reunion exactly at this time. And so, he had to make a choice.

And he made that choice, Jack? [laughs]

Be nice [inaudible].

And then of course the Civil Rights Project Inc. Anyway, I was listening to what Larry said last night about the way the spoken word is lyrical in the Black church, and how Black preaching, African American preaching is, is a very lyrical form of discourse. And I did think some of getting up here and saying, Civil Rights Project Incorporated, CRPI, that is the subject of my discourse today. And then you would say, Well, there's another White guy pretending to be a Black preacher. The Civil Rights Project Inc came into existence only in 1985, but its backgrounds, as Loretta suggested, are much deeper than that. They're deep in friendship with, for instance, with Henry Hampton. Ruth Batson's here and I'm here, some of the other folks, I wish were here were part of a circle that for, well at least fifteen years, maybe longer than fifteen years that sat together, talked together, and agonized together around Henry's dream, the dream of bringing _Eyes on the Prize_ to fruition. It's taken that long, every bit that long to bring it to pass. And the organization of CRPI in 1985, was to provide a not-for-profit framework, an institution that would be in a position to conduct research, to seek resources, to mobilize the kinds of things that would be necessary to produce an audio-visual history of the freedom movement in America, conceived and led by Black Americans. And since 1985, CRPI, operating as a Massachusetts corporation in full cooperation with Henry Hampton and his Blackside corporation have had a kind of moral partnership in this endeavor. One of the reasons I wasn't here in the last f-couple days, more often, was that we're right now in the process of getting out a great big mailing to all the people who supported _Eyes on the Prize II_. And when I say a big mailing, I mean, complete financial reports and accounts, narrative accounts of how it all was put together, expenses down to the most minute items for every aspect of production, and education, and then all the covering materials, and the covering letters, and the auditives, and all that. Well, it's quite a task to put something like that together, but we were putting it together for the people who produced, altogether a little over six million dollars for the production of _Eyes on the Prize II_. And a good healthy chunk of that came from, from PBS and CPB, public broadcasting people, but the bulk of it, probably sixty, sixty-five percent came through CRPI. So, CRPI and its board of directors, Ruth Batson is one...are responsible for working with Henry and his people to pull together all the facts that fully account for the way in which this money was spent, and the product which resulted. So, that's what I've been doing for the last couple days, a great deal of the time, seeing to it that these mailings were getting out. There were approximately sixty corporate and foundation and individual supporters of _Eyes on the Prize_ who contributed more than a thousand dollars. Great many people contributed five dollars. School group out in Newton sent in a collection a class had taken for fifteen dollars and seventeen cents or something like that, and a hundred dollars and two hundred dollars and fifty dollars. There were a great many of those and they're all going to get reported to also. But we thought we'd better first inform the people who gave us great big chunks of money, and let them see that we had, all of us together, Blackside and CRPI, done our best to be faithful as trustees, to what we were asking to do. And I think there's no question that we were. Now, CRPI, in addition to its interest in the educational uses of Eyes, is also the, the organization responsible for the archive. You're heard a little about the archive from Judy Richardson. Judy is the coordinator of the archival project. What does the archive consist of? Well, it consists of about X number times more of materials than you saw in the eight programs of Eyes II or the six programs Eyes I. It's hard to estimate whether it's ten times more, or twenty times more. It doesn't really matter. It's a great national treasure as was expressed to you, because it has hours and hours of permanent record of interviews with many, many extraordinary people, famous and not famous, many of whom are now dead. Some of whom died almost immediately after we had finished these interviews with them. And some of the money that CRPI has especially channeled for particular purposes has been that, instead of just getting maybe an hour with somebody, we got two hours or three hours of somebody. It costs money to do that, and obviously, you can't use it all, but we have these hours and hours and hours of most wonderful human interchanges with this incredible array of human beings who participated, in one way or another, either for or against, the African American freedom movement in this country. Then there are all the producers' notes and all the research findings so that, as somebody suggested the other night, quite correctly, we now virtually know where virtually everything is to be found that does exist about this history. And we have an awful lot of it, in our archive, which doesn't mean we can let just anybody use it, because we don't own it, but we at least have a record of it. We have our own copies of it. We know where it exists and where permissions can be gotten. Meanwhile, we just have an immense amount of material which is our own, and is going to be made available, just as rapidly as we can get things organized, so that it can serve the purposes that you've been talking about here for these last four or five days. And the best thing that you can do for me this morning, in addition to any particular questions that you might have, is to let me hear some, some things from you as you've put in this week here, some things that occur to you as to the ways in which this incredible national treasure, which is what it is, can further the goals and objectives that you've been talking about here. For you, for your school systems, for your students, for your institution-

-Blackside. We share Blackside's building. And so, if you, if you will drop me a note expressing your interest, I will see that it gets processed in ways that would be helpful to you and to us, OK. Yes.

Yeah. The _Eyes on the Prize_ curriculum is the core of our humanities course that we teach and what would be very helpful to us is-

-Judy Richardson yesterday, did something that if, as teachers, we had the time in the world to do, we would be able to do too. But what she did was, she was looking, at social strategies for social protests and she put together clips from a whole variety of tapes. That's the resource that we need help with, because we don't have the time as classroom teachers unfortunately, because we have responsibility for so many other things, to do that in-depth research during the school year. And so, what I would like is the resource people to both help figure out what are the primary source documents that you could use in terms of literature and reading, because you can't use these films without that, that would be appropriate and also all the different ways that you could put together different clips to, to teach the lessons that you were trying to teach.

Well, and that's precisely one of our objectives obviously, is to put this material in interactive video shape so that it is quickly accessed for the various types of combinations.

Along those lines, if you could put the tapes on video disc, then you could use computers to access individual frames and pictures.

If you had that kind of sophisticated-

Apple computers, apple computer-

If you had Apple computers.

Apple Computer company, the, Jim Lingle who's a consultant, the New England consultant for Apple computers, would be able to help you do that.

Yes. And we're aware of that.

And there's money to be-but that's, that's not-

He works closely with the lab at MIT, which, and we're also in close touch with him. In fact, I'm hoping that Gloria, Gloriana Davenport who runs that lab at MIT is, is going to be meeting with us at this August 31st, July 31st, August 1st meeting where we are bringing together a group of advisors representing different kinds of experiences and skills and suggestions about the use of the archive. We've very much aware of the one you've just talked about as primary. Go over to this side now.

The Smithsonian Institution, I guess working with the National Archives, puts out boxed sets of documents, facsimile documents, letters, photographs. It, it gives students not only an opportunity to analyze primary documents, but to kind of wrestle through the old trunk of history, and I found them very, very well-done and they might provide a model for one way of distributing-

What is it called?

The Smithsonian-

Smithsonian Institute has these, they organize them by periods of the thirties, the twenties, the thirties, et cetera.

The Smithsonian is a great resource for researchers who work in Henry's teams, production teams, and particularly the new, new series that we're, we're into now which is about the-