I can remember Malcolm uh more by the responses of other people. I knew that when he was coming to the house, others got excited because Malcolm was different in that he was a lot of fun, he was kind of bizarre given you know; the forties attitudes uh

Oh, he came a number of times uh, Malcolm came to the McGuire home, where I was living, uh regularly to visit, uh parti'-, this was much more so after he came out of prison. I was, you know, probably junior high school age during that period and any'-, anytime he came, he was well-received. Uh, at the McGuire's they had a great deal of uh respect for Malcolm. And I think they were, BG 9153 themselves, a little bit shocked to see the transformation that had occurred in terms of the pre-prison Malcolm and the post-prison Malcolm. Of course, at that point, he had joined the Nation, and he was very serious

After he came out of prison, Malcolm really ...

OK. After Malcolm came out of prison, my earliest recollections were how contained and informed he was and how he attempted to educate everyone around him uh and share what things he was learning, and it was very clear, he was a serious student. He learned through his experiences, he learned

Malcolm preached in a number of mosques. 9317[[ The first time I saw him publicly appear was in the Detroit temple. And I remember listening to him saying, "My God, that's my big brother up there," You know? I was very impressed with his command of the language, with his connection to the audience and with the real sense of commitment he had BG 9354 to uh the message he was carrying at that time.]]9358

I had five brothers who were actively involved in the Nation of Islam. I used to think that each of 'em in their own way spent time developing their ministry through me. We, I heard a great deal about the Nation, I attended a number of their events, I at no time felt extraordinary pressure to become a member. Uh, I was a very young person at that time, but I think they also recognized I had a very independent BG 9420 mind of my own. Uh, I felt very, I was proud them, uh because they were committed to a cause ...

Five of my brothers were actively involved at various times in the Nation of Islam. I like to think that each of them in their own way practiced their rap on me, but I didn't feel any extraordinary pressure to become a member. I think they understand that I, a'- even as a youngster had kind of an inquiring mind, but an independent mind. There were some parts of the rap that I could not buy into, and I think we talked about many of those issues quite a bit, and you know, I understood much more through the questions and the discussion, but I never felt strong pressure to join the Nation. I suspect also wha'-, as I think back, that many of them felt that eventually I would

Five of my brothers were members of the Nation of Islam and I kind of admired their zeal and their commitment, uh I think they practiced their rap on me many times, and so I, I came into an understanding of the Nation, but I also understood that it was not specifically for me. Uh, many parts of their teachings made a great deal of sense, other parts did not. And I was always raised to BH 0186 say you must be true to what you believe. Uh, I didn't become a member of the Nation of Islam because I had other goals and

Well, I was a relatively young person when I first began to listen to uh the BH 0235 teachings. Uh, I had problems accepting certain issues like uh mothership did not, for instance, uh I couldn't comprehend that. I couldn't comprehend the uh Ja Coupe uh and, and various things like of that sort. I admired the Muslims for their commitment to improving, you know, lifestyles, uh healthy diet, appropriate uh treatment and interactions with others. I admired their strong family uh values, but uh at that point I had no thoughts about marriage or children. BH 0299 Uh, I was a young man. Uh, I, I believed then, and I believe now that there was much that we could gain from understanding uh what

[0331 There was a Savior's Day occurrence, uh I believe I probably was twelve or thirteen at the time, and my brothers uh asked me to attend. So I went to Chicago, and uh first had to sit through a very long activity that I suspect was four, five hours BH 0365 long and after uh [my family uh attended a dinner at Elijah Muhammad's home. So I had the pleasure of meeting him and, and breaking bread with he and other members of his family. And we had some discussions that I remember, and I think I was probably a bit irreverent at that time because I had said some things like, "I don't understand, nor can I accept this." And uh I remember getting a kick under the table from one of my brothers because people normally did not BH 0424 respond in a questioning way. You were generally accepting, because if he said it,

I think there was a presumption that one day I would join the Nation because, you know, I had a number of positive models in my brothers, and uh I think they believed that eventually I would see the light and would BH 0510 become a member. I don't re'-, recall any active recruiting, however, uh so if I was recruited, it was very subtle.

I was at Michigan State and probably in my sophomore or junior year at this point and a number of people had begun hearing about Malcolm in various ways. Many did not know that he was my brother. I tended to keep family related business within and among family, and so someone· asked me if I could BH 0577 find a way to get Malcolm invited to Michigan State, and I said I would try. So I contacted the proper people, and he agreed to come to Michigan State to speak.At Michigan State we had a building called the Union Building, and it was a student union and we reserved a room t hat perhaps had fifty to seventy-five seats in it, and uh Malcolm spoke before a predominantly black crowd, but there were a number of white people in BH 0623 attendance, mostly faculty and graduate uh students. He was very active, he, he used all of his skills and he think he overwhelmed

[[0734 Students during that period, and we're ta~ g approximately fifty-eight, BH 0742 fifty-nine were just becoming aware of the civil rights struggle, and I think were

[[0794 It seemed to me in recalling that meeting that the white students seemed to be more accepting of his description of the racial issues and the tensions and the problems. Uh, most of the black students had been at that point in their lives conditioned to believe that things were gonna improve if you just took your time and you were patient enough. Malcolm was a very impatient person BH 0839 and he was essentially saying, "Change now!" And I want to see it in my life time, not necessarily twenty years from now. And I

The first visit which was in, you know, the fifties, uh was small and it was almost uh cultish if you will. Uh when Malcolm came to Michigan State for a second visit, uh we had to find a much larger space. Uh, we had our meeting in the education departments auditorium uh which was called BH 0923 Eric Senkiva, and there we probably had three to four hundred students sitting on the floor, standing around the, the walls, every seat was filled. So it was clear that some emerging consciousness was happening and that the Nation of Islam uh had also begun to receive some degree of legitimation among BH 0960 minority students. Uh, it seemed to me, as I recall, that the composition of the crowd was predominantly minority at that point.

In the second meeting, one of the things I recall is that there were more people questioning the validity of integration as the objective in the Civil Rights struggle. It became clear, too, that those who were strongest in support of the traditional Civil Rights struggle were students either from the South or who were BH 1051 connected to the issues in the South. Northern students tended to be a little more quote "reality oriented" in that we had

I think the white students were still a bit frightened by, you know, all of what the Nation of Islam represented. Uh, on the other hand, there were more acceptance of the problem definition. I think everyone by that time, you know, in the sixties had begun BH 1156 to recognize that racism was alive and well, and a very dominant force in the lives of both black and white people.

[[1182 When Malcolm visited and I had an opportunity to talk with him, either prior to or after his public appearances, one of the things that always impressed me was he wanted feedback. He was very concerned with how his messages were being received by students and eh, even though I saw him many times, I noted BH 1218 that each time out, he was better in terms of particularly connecting with the educational processes.] He had real hope for young people, and the students in particular, that they could grow well beyond their teachers and their parents understanding of many of their real problems.]]1249 So I think he got better each time out. I think he was very serious about trying to get a student BH 1258 perspective because it helped him in his studies as well, to understand how best to present issues.

At the time, uh I felt that Malcolm appealed mostly to black students. What I've begun to realize over time, white students equally have a strong interest in Malcolm. Number one, he was a straight talker ...

A'-, as I remember those meetings uh Malcolm had a direct visceral kind of uh ...

In the early sixties, I think Malcolm appealed to black and white students in different ways. I think generally both appreciated his straight-forward candor. Uh, they certainly appreciated his oratorical style, and the intellectual presentations that he usually made. He took very simple, eh uh but difficult to understand concepts and was able to paint word pictures that you BH 1376 couldn't help but understand his meanings. Black students were particularly proud of the way in which he was able to articulate and to present, particularly his descriptions of white people, the power system, etc. I think white students were amazed, number one, that he was so articulate and number two, that he generally was right on target. So, in a way, he articulated the thoughts and feelings of BH 1419 many of us, that we had never had either the nerve or the opportunity to express in any kind of reasonable way.

At the time, the, there was a campus NAACP group, and some of us were, I would say a little more to the right, and others were a little more to the left. So there were different ideological factions, some very strongly integrationist, some questioning the need for us to utilize self-help as opposed to government help. And I think those two groups were uh addressed effectively by BH 1487 Malcolm because he recognized that that was one of the fundamental dilemmas of the time: which way to go. I think he very persuasively presented uh more of a Michigan state to students separationist uh, more independent approach. Uh, [[1511 I can recall his asking the rhetorical question, "Do you expect the people who use you to teach you what you need to know to overcome oppression?" And, you know, in your heart, you had to say, "No." You had to say, "Hey, maybe he's up to something here. Maybe we better listen." So he had a presentational style that could ask a BH 1546 question that would require you to personally answer it, and sometimes get a little uncomfortable with the answer that you received.]]1558

At the time Male'-, of Malcolm's second visit, I was in graduate school. And I can remember sitting there just kind of bursting with pride, but at the same time, observing the audience and looking at people whom I knew uh some of the per'-, personal philosophies I was familiar with, watching them go through a internal process and finally recognizing, "You know, he's making BH 1618 some very valid points here. Maybe I have to reconsider some of my thoughts." So I saw

As I recall the student newspaper had a relatively small innocuous article. [[1666 At the time, most of the reporting about Malcolm BH 1671 was generally negative or orientated to maintaining the status quo. He was poi'-, you know, painted as a fire brand, a militant who was out to destroy everything. I think it was a most deceptive betrayal., And I, for many years, had limited respect for the media reporting on people of color because of the way that they presented him.] I have sat in meetings and I listened to his presentations, BH 1716 and I read articles that made me think there was an entirely different person presented. And I don't say that just because that was my

Many people did, many people did not.

Many people knew that Malcolm was my brother, many did not. And so I talked with people who were familiar and people who were not. It's interesting that those who were not familiar tended to be a little more BH 1781 candid about their private feelings and thoughts than those who knew that he was my brother.

During that time, there were a small minority of black students on campus, but we BH 1802 were a relatively close group. I did talk with black and white about him, however.

Generally, I think they were awed by Malcolm. They were respectful of what he was saying, not always agreeable, but you know, with respect. I think they understood that things were not as we had been taught. And BH 1836 he began enlightening both black and white through his presentations.

As a student, and particularly in my undergraduate days, uh I had my ups and BH 1873 downs. During one period, I wrote a paper on uh negro history, and I incorporated

See, this was before I think he had decided internally to get out. And, but I, I think he was struggling as he learned, you know, with , you know a lot of things. Uh, and I think he was trying to shield me because. he knew, also, that I wasn't about to submit to a lot of their stuff, you know, uhm ... (audio cut).

[[2532 When I talked to Malcolm about the possibility of leaving school and maybe joining the Nation. That was the first time I can remember his being truly upset with me. Uhm, he made it very clear that this was not my thing, it was his thing. He made it also clear that I had the opportunity of a life time, one that he did not have, to pursues my studies,] to have access to a great deal of BH 2571 information that could be used to help my people,2576] and I needed to crosh sound prepare myself.

He, he indicated that I had the greatest opportunity to prepare myself for BH 2603 the future and he question, "Why do you think I'm working as I'm doing? Because that's what I can do. You will have opportunities,

This was many years before that.

[[2652 In approximately 1955, I was BH 2659 travelling to New York with a band, and three of my friends, two of my friends, rather uh wanted to go with me. I told them I was going to meet my brother Malcolm. And I called Malcolm, he said, come up the A Train to a hundred and twenty-fifth street and ask somebody for me. I thought he was ego tripping. But, none the less, I went on the A Train, I got off, and the first person that BH 2698 I saw, I said, "Can you tell me where I can find Malcolm?" And they said, "Yes." They

They, you know, the Muslims had a series of teachings that talked about the BH 2941 supremacy of the African. And he was able to do things like look at, you know, what's

underneath that fur. White skin is underneath that fur. Look at the nose, look BH 2964 at the lips, etcetera. This is not African, you know?

Yes.

[[2980 Malcolm, I remember specifically BH 2986 took us to the gorilla stand and he began to describe, "Look at the features of this person. Look at the nose, look at the lips, look at the ears, and look underneath the skin. What color is that skin?" We did not descend from animals. They did. We descended from Kings, and it was a very subtle way of making you proud of your BH 3020 African roots. Uh, in the fifties, most black people were ashamed of any connectiveness to Africa. I left there as a

It's difficult to freeze a single~ moment in time about Malcolm, but [3094 in my mind, BH 3096 [I see him sitting in his chair, relaxing, laughing and joking, enjoying discussions of his experiences in his various life stages, uh reflecting on the changes that he has gone through. The ways in which he has learned. He was a laid-back, quiet, and a perfectly enjoyable, warm person. So different from the public imagery. We tend to see pictures BH 3139 of Malcolm pointing his finger, and looking very hostile, etcetera, when in fact, he was so different from that, uh particularly among

I don't think that we had truly a big brother - little b r other relationship, except to the fact that that was the BH 3199 situation, we had never lived together in the same household, except for a very short period of time. I think we had a, a relationship that was special, however, and he knew idolized him, you know, and I enjoyed being in his presence. And I think he took his responsibilities as a big brother very seriously to be sure that what he said was uh appropriate and helpful and kind of guided me in various positive directions. [[3244 I have a BH 3246 hard time, still, thinking of Malcolm as deceased because I see so much of him in so many things now, the way many of us think,

[[3306 When Malcolm left the Nation of Islam, I think there was some tension within BH 3318 the family. Ah, I personally felt that if that's what he chose to do, he was doing the right thing for him. Ah, some were less positive in that regard. And I do believe that that created some tensions in, within our family. Mainly because we didn't talk candidly abut some of the things that may BH 3351 have triggered his leaving and ah some of the behaviors of some of my family relative to his leaving. It's very difficult--and I

[[3406 In nineteen seventy- two, seven years after, approximately eight years after BH 3416 Malcolm left the Nation of Islam, I saw a movie.And for the first tirn, I saw my brother reading a very negative, derogatory statement about Malcolm. It hurt me, it shocked me, it appalled me. And I think I will have many years to come before I would ever accept the fact that that was the right thing to do.C Ah, C I perhaps re-spected him, but I think I lost a bit of respect for him as a result of that. It was clear that he BH 3466 was choosing the Nation over his brother. And I don't think one should ever choose any organization over family.]]3478

3482[ I was n- unaware. Totally unaware that ah ah my brother was in fact condemning Malcolm and in some respects condemning us BH 3496 all. He implied that Malcolm was mentally ill.]3499 He implied that--

Mmm-hm.

MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL 119.

Y'all gonna see my sh- m- I should be shaving before I get on here.

Speeding. Mark. Eight. [cough]

At the time my brother read a statement, I think it was before a news conference that was convened by the Nation, I had no awareness that he felt the way the statement read or that he in fact had said this. It was, it took seven years or so before I even became aware of what he did. BH 3573 And I have to say that my estimation of him changed considerably. 3580[ I do not believe it was the right thing for him to do. [I believe that no one should, either by force or agreeably, put the organization ahead of family ties and connection. I was hurt. I still am hurt by that. And I think some other members of his family are hurt by 'know BH 3613 his behavior during that period.]]3617

Eh, yeah. [[3633 Malcolm was very instrumental in arranging to have my mother released from Kalamazoo State Hospital. She had been there for over twenty years. And I think all of us were somewhat uncomfortable.] Ah, attitudes about family members ah who were hospitalized are not like they were today. So we might have been unenlightened in some respects. But [I think it was something that served to strengthen each of BH 3679 us as we became re-acquainted with her. And I am y'know, one of the things that I'm concerned with is that he never really got a chance to interact with her as much as I know he wanted to.] Ah, [I happened to be with my mother on the day that Malcolm was killed. And I remember her not saying a word, but just watching television and listening to the announcement. I was not sure that she knew who Malcolm was. I sensed that she did. But BH 3731 she did not express any overt relationship or connection.]]3740

Well I, I heard about Malcolm's death before I went to my brother's house, where my mother was living. And so I went there to kind of be with family and to to share our family personal grief. And it was very ah, I can't say it was an unexpected event, because Malcolm had frequently talked BH 3792 about how his life might have been in jeopardy. He had speculated about who might wish to s ee him dead, et cetera. Ah, but it- the hurtful thing to me was that he never really had the time and the opportunity to get to know her as she was at that point. Ah, she was a very strong woman. A very proud woman. And withstood a great deal of pressure and anguish and quote treatment in the mental health system. And ah, I wished BH 3843 he could have spent more time with her.

3858[[ On the day that Malcolm was killed, I was at home with my wife and young daughter. And I was living on the university campus. I had recently completed graduate school. My wife was attending school. A person from the campus newspaper saw the AP wire and called me. Ah, I think he wanted BH 3892 first to share the information, but as many people do, he wanted an exclusive. Fort unately, I did not give him one. He asked me if I thought the Muslims killed Malcolm. And I said to him very candidly, I'd not like to believe that. Ah, I felt that this was larger than the Nation of BH 3924 Islam. Although I had no proof at that time that it was larger.]]3931

3942[ I think I had intellectually accepted the notion that Malcolm's life was at risk. But when, in fact, he was killed,

Malcolm meant hope to many black people. He also meant change for both black and white people. He had a commitment to change. He- we had a belief that he could assist us in this change. I think Malcolm has become stronger in his death than during his life. You know, certainly more people are now familiar with him and have reviewed BH 4055 his speeches, his records, and some film, and are reviewing it much more favorably than at the time. So, I think now people are

At that time he was bold, he was articulate, he was committed, he didn't sell out. Y'know, he was a model. I think Ossie Davis's eh eulogy describes everything much more eloquently than I could. He was a prince. Ah, he was energetic. He was committed. He wanted for us. He never asked BH 4157 for himself. And that's a lesson we- many of our leaders ought to learn.

[[4167 We went to New York when ah we became aware that they were gonna have a funeral. My sister Yvonne and I, my foster sister Ruby, and their husbands, attended, and we viewed the body. We attended a private service. We did not go to the public service. Primarily because we were too trusting. Some members of New York's law BH 4207 enforcement community advised us that there was going to be trouble. And ... we were not a part of the New York scene. We had no way of evaluating that. So, we actually sat in the hotel room together, watched the service on television, cried together. c And we felt that we accomplished our purpose. We had no interest in a lot of publicity. There were a lot of games and agendas being played during that period. And we didn't want to really be a part of that. We were there to grieve our BH 4256 brother. And we were not there to be a part of some public display.]]4262

I'm not sure we talked a lot. I think we more felt for each other. Because BH 4279 all of us loved him. We all were in awe. Of his capacity. We were in awe of his commitments. Ah, we held him on a very high pedestal. Because he was doing things. Most of us at that time thinking about things, you know. 4307[[ He was a doer. And, I don't recall a great deal, of emotional wailing or anything. But I know we all felt a sense of loss, a void. I know we all were glad that we went to New York. Many people ah over the years have said we didn't go. BH 4336 That we had no interest.] Ah,]4338 you know, people revise history to suit their purposes, I guess.

You know what BEEP I'm getting at, don't you?

We're not going to get any of that!

Heh-heh.

Mark. Nine.

I really don't know who killed him. Whoever participated may not be the individuals or o r ganizations behind it. I hope one day that this information will become public because we all need to really know.