Mark-

Team A.

-it.

Whoops, do it again. Second sticks.

Second sticks.

Go ahead.

Peter, you're talking about summer 1962, when you first moved and saw Harlem and Malcolm for the first time. Can you give us your reactions?

Well, I had moved to Harlem in the summer of 1962 and we moved in on a Friday. So that Saturday morning instead of-my roommate and I-instead of unpacking, we decided to walk through Harlem. We were living right off of Lenox Avenue which is Harlem's main drag, so we walked down to 100 and-we walked down. We got to 116th Street and Lenox Avenue and saw a crowd gathering. And we asked what was going on and they said that Malcolm X was going to speak. At that time we had heard of Malcolm but we had only heard the negative things that you hear from reading the newspapers. So, we didn't know him. So, we decided to stay and listen to what he had to say, and he spoke for about almost, almost two hours. He-and we listened and he began to-my opinion was that you could never listen to him and be the same again. If you disagreed with every single thing he was saying, he still forced you to deal with certain things, and think about certain things that you had been kind of not really dealing with and thinkin' about before. So, we became totally fascinated, and I found myself, personally, being intellectually resisting what he was saying because I had come out of the integrationist wing of the movement. And-but emotionally I was very, very pulled by his, his analysis of the system. I had never heard the system analyzed and presented in that way before. It made sense to me. It really made sense, and, and I had to, I was resisting it intellectually but emotionally I was very pulled toward it, and we found out that he was gonna be speaking there every Saturday afternoon. So, we made it definitely our purpose that we were gonna be back there the following Saturday, and we were. And we began to listen, and every time he would mention an article, or a magazine, or a book, we would go and try and find that article, and magazine, and book to read. It was in every sense of the word for me, it was a university of the streets. You know that tie-that term is kind of overused, but I think, literally, it was a university of the streets. In the sense that we were learning. It was a learning experience in the absolute most, most-the best sense of that term learning. And for about five or six Saturdays, I felt as though I learned more about how the system worked in this country than I had learned in all the years, you know, prior to that, just by listening to his analysis. So, to me, it was, it was the beginning [clears throat] of my higher education, though I had already had two years of college by the time this happened. But to me, that was the beginning of my higher education.

Cut.

Mark it.

September, 1963, at the Jackie Robinson rally. Describe the incident and what it meant to you in terms of Malcolm's power.

Well, what happened was that, you know, in early 1963, kind of, in my opinion, as a response to the, to the March on Washington, which I think occurred on August 28th, the church, 16th Street Baptist Church, was bombed in Birmingham and four little girls were killed in that, in that bombing. So, it was some time, I think, in late September of 1963, there was a rally on 125th Street in Harlem in front of the then Hotel Theresa, which is where all the major rallies were held in Harlem. And it was-the, the person who kind of seemed to have been put the rally together was Jackie Robinson. Now, Jackie Robinson had been my childhood hero growing up in Alabama. I remember when he broke into baseball, he was my childhood hero, and-but he-I kind of forgot about that when he began to-he became-he was very hostile to Brother Malcolm. And after I began to be involved with Brother Malcolm, I kind of switched my allegiance over to Brother Malcolm. But what happened that day was that there was a rally showing our support for those little girls down in Birmingham, [siren] and, Jackie Robinson-I mean, Malcolm X was the first speaker and he spoke. And then about, I guess, maybe eight or nine other speakers spoke including Eartha Kitt, by the way, who was at the Apollo Theater at the time. There's another story, a whole story there. But when it, when it was over, when the last speaker spoke, they, you know, Jackie Robinson thanked everyone for coming. And the crowd started yelling, We want Malcolm X! They wanted Brother Malcolm to speak again. And they kept saying, We want Malcolm X! and they wouldn't leave. And Jackie Robinson kept saying, Well, the real-the rally's over, you know, everybody should go home. And then the crowd started really getting belligerent. And they were jumping on cars, and stopping traffic, and-Brother Malcolm, who had been kind of leaning up against the Chock Full o'Nuts, which was right there at the bottom of the Hotel Theresa, got up on the platform again, and kind of said to the crowd, you know, Brothers and sisters, you know, let's don't this. You know, we-you know, we, the rally was for a very important cause, and we, you know, we've had it and I think everyone, you know should now go home. And immediately, the crowd just quieted down and moved on out. And it was if-it was the-my first time witnessing the, the ability that he had to move people, and how people responded to him. I mean, they just faded away. There was no more-all of the, the raucous and this, and all the jumping, and screaming, and yelling stopped, and everybody just left. And within a few minutes, you know, the area was, you know, was cleared. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, people really, you know, respond to him. I had never seen anything like that before. And it was my-it was an example to me of his ability, and how people, you know, responded to him, and his ability to move people. And he had a certain kind of integrity that people responded to, and that was that, and, and, and it always stayed etched in my mind. And at this time, I still did not know him. I had not met him at this time. I was still just kind of, you know, following around wherever he went, if I could be there, I would go and listen. But because I was not a Muslim and then really had no in, in, intentions or inclinations to become a Muslim, I was never able to get to know him before this time.

Cut.

OK.

Mark it.

Leading into January of '64, and what led up to you finally meeting Malcolm and working with him.

That came about because of someone that I knew. What had happened is that in December of-

[inaudible]

-1963, Brother Malcolm was suspended from the Nation of Islam.

Repeat that sentence again, In December-

Oh, in December of 1963 Brother Malcolm was suspended from the Nation of Islam. This came about as a result of statements in the press indicating, or trying to imply, that he had rejoiced over the assassination of President John Kennedy. You know, that occurred November 22nd, 1963. And what Brother-a statement that Brother Malcolm had said at the time was that it was a case of the chickens coming home to roost. And now, if you grew up in the South, like I did, you know, everyone knows that statement. You hear it all the time from the older people. You know, something about the chickens coming home to roost. And what he was basically saying was that he had been saying all along that, that the violence, you know, that whole violent atmosphere that had been created as a result of the movement, the bombing in Birmingham, and all the other things that had gone on, and by the government not doing anything about this, and in this case, Kennedy was be-was the president at the time, they had created a, a whole atmosphere of violence, and finally this violence had reached the White House. This is, this is what he was saying, when he said the case of the chickens coming home to roost. But of course, the press used this, and reported it as though he was rejoicing over Kennedy's assassination. And eventually, he in, some time in December, he was suspended by the Nation of Islam. Now, in the latter part of December, or early January, I'm not exactly sure of the date, a friend of mine, a young lady who I knew, approached me when we were having lunch together, and she said, How would you like to be a part of a new organization? So, I said, Fine, I said, What kind of organization? And she gave me that, you know, some very, very brief details. I said, It sounds very interesting. I would be very, I would be very interested in, in being a part of it. So, she said, Well, I'm gonna call you on Saturday morning around eight o'clock, and I'll tell you where, and, and everything. You know, very seek-you know, it was all very secretive. And so I said, OK. She called me, told me where to meet and what time. I went over there. It was a motel on Harlem at 153rd Street and 8th Avenue in Harlem. And when I got over there, I saw John Henrik Clarke, I saw John Killens and a few other people. They were two people I definitely recognized. There were a couple of other people that I had seen around but I didn't really know that well. But they-I knew them. and I was, you know, my curiosity was aroused, and so I'm wondering, What is going on here? And we sat around and talked for a while. And then in walks Brother Malcolm. Now when he walked in, I said to myself, Uh-oh, you know, this is gonna be serious. I had never, I had no idea, up until he walked through that door, that he was gonna be involved with this new organization. And that's when I found out that he was planning on forming an organization that would-where people like myself, who were non-Muslims, could work with his program. And, and after we, we sat down, and we talked, and we began to meet there every Saturday for about three or four weeks, maybe longer. But I think maybe even five or six weeks, we met there every Saturday. We discussed the organization, we developed a constitution. We got, developed the name, the Organization of African American Unity, which was after the Organization of African Unity which was, which had been formed about the same time over in, in Africa. So, we called ourselves the Organization of Afro-American Unity. And it was out of that, I met him that day for the first time, and nothing significant happened. I mean, I was just another one of the people there. But I remember thinkin' to myself, you know, that I think I had finally found an organization that was beginning to appeal to the types of things that I was thinkin' about at that time. I had been in many org-NAACP youth group, CORE, the Harlem Rent Strike Committee. I had been through all of these groups, and eventually, I would pull out because I used to get frustrated with them. But I felt, you know, this organization sounds like it's gonna be very interesting. And it was, it was my time, it was, it was my first time of-after, after hearing him now, of actually getting a chance to speak to him, and to begin to move and work with him with this organization. And we met and we announced the organization publicly, I think, around June of 1964. We publicly announced the organization in early June. And, and shortly after the announcement, he went off to the Organization of African Unity meeting in Cairo.

Cut.

K.

Mark it.

You're talking about how this organization satisfied you more than any others, and the principles behind the OAAU, and how it folded into Malcolm-

Mm-hmm.

-and his travel.

OK, you know, by this time, I had basically been following Brother Malcolm for almost a year and a half. Since this-we're talking now the early winter of 1964, and I had first started following him in the summer of 1962. So, for a year and a half, I had been kind of, from a distance, supporting his organization, going to rallies, you know, listening to him speak, following him on television, radio. So when he walked through that door, and I saw that he was gonna be part of this new organization, that was very, very-for me, that was a, a tremendous opportunity for me to become involved in something that I thought was really serious. And, as we just sat back and-the thing that amazed me is that he, you know, he responded. He, he wanted to know what, what those of us thought who were there with him in the organization. He did not come in there and say, you know, This is the organization and this is what's gonna happen. And we sat down, and we worked out a constitution and basically, we had just different areas. We'd say, politically, that back people should control the politics of our community. We believe in an independent Black political party. We did not believe in being members of the Democratic or the Republican party. Economically, we talked about collective economic activities, that we, you know, that we were under-utilizing our economic power in the society and that we could move if we do it, did it on a, on a collective basis. We had a program for self-defense, and, of course, this was always the one where the press accused him of advocating violence. And basically, the thrust of his policy in self-defense was that in those areas where the government was either unable or unwilling to protect the lives and property of Black people, then they had the right to protect themselves. Now, if you know what was going on with all those bombings and, and things, and, that were going on during that time. You know, we considered that to be a very lo, a very logical position to take for an organization. And then we had policies on the social policy. We talked about the necessity for, you know, for guardianships, so that Black youngsters who got in trouble, instead of them going immediately into the courts, they might be able to parole them off into a guardian organization, which is what other groups, you know, have done and, and still do consistently. And I don't think that, we're still not involved in that in any kind of serious manner that would keep the kid from getting a court record very early. Those who-some, of course, can't be stopped, but some who, some who can. So, we talked about that as part of our social policy. But, but the one thing that-and these were all different approaches from most of the other organizations [car passes] that existed at that time. But if you want to understand the biggest difference that we had with them is that I think we were the, the first and major organization of that time who had a foreign policy. I mean, we had a foreign policy. And it was based on Brother Malcolm's contention that it was to our advantage, and in our best interest-I'm talking about African Americans-to have strong relationships with Black people all around the world but especially on the African continent. It was his contention that this was our, our only real, place, you know, where we had, we would get protection. And he all-and an example he used, which was very, very interesting to me and which I always use when I talk to students, is that he said there used to be a time when people would say, You don't have a Chinaman's chance. And I can remember as a kid hearing that. He said, But since China has become a force on the world scene, you don't hear anyone saying anymore, You don't have a Chinaman's chance. Because a strong China, a respected China, is a protection for Chinese people of Chinese descent all over the world. And he said the same, say, with Jewish people, he said Israel had become a protector. If you mess with a Jewish person, no matter where in the world you mess with, with somebody, you know, they had somebody who's prepared to, to organize to defend them. He felt as though we had to develop that same kind of relationship with Africa. So, he built the foreign, he had a foreign policy. He used to travel. We called him our foreign minister and our secretary of, our combination of foreign minister and secretary of state. That's why shortly after the organization was formed, after the OAAU was publicly announced, he went off to attend the Organization of African Unity meeting in Cairo. This was very important because, number one, it was the first time that an African American had been allowed to sit in on the meeting. He did not participate, he was not allowed to speak, but he was allowed to sit in as an observer. And while there as an observer, he distributed documents, you know, outlining his position, and trying to make the Africans see where it was in their best interest to have a strong relationship with us. In was in our best interest to have a strong relationship with them, and it was in their best interest to have a strong relationship with us. And if you see some of the documents from that time, he outlines the reasons behind this, and so we were the-we, we had a foreign policy. You know, the OAAU, unlike some of the other organizations at that time, we had a foreign policy, and Brother Malcolm was our secretary of state and our foreign minister. And he spent time over there, and one of the results of his spending time over there, was a, a statement issued by the Organization of African Unity supporting, denouncing, what was happening in Mississippi. Because, you know, this was the summer, we-now we're talkin' the summer of '64, the killing of Chaney, and, and Goodman, and Schwerner, those three kids. A Black, one Black kid and two White kids who were killed in Mississippi. This had happened. There had been other bombings going on. The Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was being organized, and trying to replace the racist Democratic Party in Mississippi that came to Atlantic City, and they refused to seat them at the Democratic Convention. So, all of this, you know, was happening at this time. And, and for the Organization of African Unity to issue a statement recognizing what was happening at this time was a very, very important step. And it was laid, this foundation was laid by what Brother Malcolm did at that OAAU meeting. I thought that was a, that was a very significant move, and I really believe that this was his success in doing that. And his success later in the summer, besides issuing that statement, when the situation broke in the Congo where some Belgium Nationals were killed in the Congo, and there was a big to-do over here about those terrible Africans, you know, killing Europeans in the Congo. At the UN, some African diplomats, for the first time in speaking before the UN, connected the situation that was happening in the Congo to the situation that was happening in Mississippi. This was a-and they did this because of the foundation that Brother Malcolm had laid. So, I mean, our foreign policy was beginning to connect up. And I think that that was when he began to be considered a seriously, serious and dangerous. Because I remember he told us that when he was traveling in Africa at that time, in Kenya, at some affair that he went to, because in Africa, he was treated like, you know, like he was, like he was our, our foreign minister of the African American people to Africa. And in Kenya, I think it was, the American ambassador there, some affair that he was attendin' that the American ambassador was present, told him that he had no right. No right to come to Africa, and mess with American's foreign policy. And Brother Malcolm's response to him was, If you were not doing the things that you're doing or the things that are happening to Black people in America were not happening, then, you know, there would be nothing for me to say. So, you know, you would not have to worry about anything that I say while I'm over here in Africa. So, the government began to take, you know, began to look at what he was doing and began to realize that this man was very serious. He was very serious. His-what he, what he ultimately was aiming for at a foreign policy level was to have the government, the US government, have to defend its inaction in terms of the racist attacks that were going on at that time, to defend its actions before the UN Commission on Human Rights, and take it before the World Court. Now of course, we all know that if-whatever the World Court decided, the American government could say, you know, We don't have to pay any attention to that, you know, we are powerful, you know, it doesn't mean anything. But the fact that they had to go and do that would have been a tremendous propaganda loss and I think that was-they did not want that to happen.

I want to back up again and talk about the _Backlash_ and its purpose. You were talking about the publication and-

The publication?

Yes.

OK.

And communications. Can you talk about that a little bit, the newsletter _Backlash_?

OK. Well, well, you know, one of the things that Brother Malcolm taught us, and it is the reason today was-eventually, why I ended up being a journalist. Because at the time, I had no intentions of being a journalist, was the importance of information, of having the correct information on which to base whatever actions you were planning on taking. And another thing that he taught us was that you could not depend on someone else to get the information out. You had to have your own means of getting the information out. So, one of the first things we did was to form a newsletter. And since no one else, you know, took the job, I took over the job as editor of the newsletter. The first three issues, I think, were called the OAAU Newsletter. And then after, that we named it the _Blacklash_. And it was kind of a takeoff, because at the time, there was a lot of talk about the White backlash. You know there was a White backlash developing over things that had been happening, and so we decided to call our, our publication the _Blacklash_ and that's how it became. It was Xeroxed copies, you know. It was nothing fancy. But when you look at it, we had a, a lot of information in there that was not being presented anywhere else. The speeches that he made in Africa, we presented the whole speeches. The African nations' res, declaration supporting our position in this country, we present-we, we, we, we published that. We published Sheikh Muhammad Babu's whole speech. When he came, he spoke in Harlem. And so, we used that publication, and we sold it for five cents at our rallies. And it became our publication. We were getting information out.

OK. Hold, stop, please.

Mark it.

OK. I, when I-thinking and talking about things that Brother Malcolm-

Starts, start again, OK, had to re-focus. Go ahead.

Go on.

OK. Another thing that he taught us, and this is very important, too, that we learned, was that be careful with words because words can get you a lot of trouble. I remember I wrote, when 1964 with the Harlem uprising, when this policeman was accused of killing this young boy, I had written a new-a paper, something for our newsletter, describing it as a murder. And I read it to Brother Malcolm over the phone, he was in Cairo at the time, despite the fact that some New York newspapers was saying that he was in Queens directing the uprising. He was in Cairo. And I read it to him over the phone, and I described this as a murder, and he said, Brother Peter, you can't use murder. Murder is a legal term. You can-and you can, and you can only use that once the person has been convicted. He said, Use the word killing because you know he's gonna be acquitted, and if he's acquitted, then he can sue you for libel and defamation of character. So, we went through 500 copies and changed the word murder to killing. And I still have copies there, where you wrote killing at the top and scratched out the word murder. And sure enough, later on, when Gilligan, the cop, was acquitted, he sued SCLC and CORE for distributing information, and public information, saying that he was a murderer.

Cut.

[inaudible]

Time code ten-four-three.

Mark it.

OK. The last days of his life when you were talking about the fire bombing, France, and the last day you had a quality-

OK. Well, by the, by the, the winter of 1965, there were three things that happened right in a, in a row. He was, he was banned from France. He was, his home was firebombed, and he was assassinated. Now to me, and, and I'm looking now as back on this, it was like somebody had said, you know, This guy's gotta go. First, he landed in Paris. The French government would not let him in. They shipped him back to London. That happened. The following week, he was home, his home was firebombed, his wife and children in the house. They got out. They lost everything but they-no, no one was, was injured in the firebombing. And then the next Saturday, the next Sunday, I remember, the next Saturday, we had a meeting at our, in the OAAU, and it was decided that from then on, everybody was gonna be searched who came to our rallies. And we had a big rally scheduled the next day. And Brother Malcolm said, No. You know, he didn't want people searched. You look back over it now, we should have told him the same thing that, you know, that, that they tell Reagan, you know, you have no, nothing to do about your, about your protection, you know, we make this decision. So, then we went on, and we went to the, to the Audubon Ballroom the next day for the, for the rally. When he came in that Saturday, I had written something the day before, saying we still support him. And again, he looked at it, and he told me, Brother Peter, you can't say this, because you say it like there's something, you know, get in trouble. So, I put it off to the side. So, when he came in the next day, he called me backstage. And the reason he did that, he thought that he knew that, he said, You know, I know you worked very hard on that, and I just want you to understand why I said don't do it. I said, I do understand. I understand exactly what you're saying. We talked very briefly. There was an article about the, the Deacons for Defense and Justice in _The New York Times_. I showed him the clip and he said, Well, it's about time. It's very good to see some brothers now talkin' self-defense. This was in Louisiana, in New Orleans, in Louisiana, that they, they decided to do this. We talked about fifteen or twenty minutes more about different things. He said, told us that he was gonna go to Mississippi to speak to SNCC, and then he was gonna come back and he was gonna really work on forming the organization. And there was about five or six of us backstage at the time talkin' to him. And then, we had decided that this Reverend Galamison was gonna come in, and make a, you know, speak to the audience about getting some clothes and supplies for his family. So, he said, Does anyone here know what Galamison look like? And I said, Yes, I do. So, he sent me down front to wait on Galamison. When Galamison came in, I was supposed to bring him backstage. So, I'm sitting down front, waiting for this, in the little room off the main ballroom. And you know, this place is like almost a football field long. So, I, I heard Brother Malcolm say Assalamu Alaikum. And the next thing I heard was shots. And I ran into the main area when I started hearing the shooting, and I got knocked down, and I laid on the floor. Two people running by me, and I heard screaming, and crying, and shooting. When the shooting stopped, I jumped up and ran down the length of the ballroom, jumped up on the stage. And when I got there, Mrs. Kochiyama was holding him in her arms, and someone had pulled his shirt open, and you could just see the bulletholes all, you know, in his chest. I kinda felt then that it was no way he was gonna survive. He was kind of gagging. You know, he was laying on the floor, he was kind of gagging. I remember jumping off the stage, and wondering had anyone gone to get the doctors, but some brothers had already gone over to, to Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center. No doctor from there would come over, so they rolled, they took a cart, and rolled it through the streets, put him on it, and took him back over to the hospital. But I remember about that time that, that there was some police there in that place. We know there was undercover cops. I remember, I saw police in uniform. And they was, when I, I can still see them with all this chaos. People laying on the floor, a lot of screaming and crying. This is, you know, immediately afterwards. And they were walking very casually through the place just looking around. Nobody looked as though there was any kind of real serious effort being made. And I really think the only reason that there eventually was a trial was because one of the brothers had, had, had disobeyed Brother Malcolm who said, No weapons. And one of the brothers in our group had brought a weapon with him. I didn't know he had brought one, but he had, and he had been able to shoot this one guy when he was running by, slowed him down, and he got caught by the crowd outside. And I really think they would have stomped him to death if the police had not taken him away from him, and put him away. And that was the only reason, I think, they had a trial. I think if he had gotten away like the others did, there never would have been a trial. It would have been like, Well, we're, we're checking things out. We're investigating. But because he was caught, and so many people saw him get caught, there had to be a trial. I think the assassinations-I think back over it now, was done like it was for three reasons. Because he could easily have been assassinated in some dark corner as he was going home. One, to intimidate his followers, which was a success. You know, we can shoot your leader down in the middle of the afternoon. Two, to cause all kind of dissension within the group, you know, who's in the group? Somebody in the group is obviously a plant with the police. Who is it? You know and three to cause a shootout between the, the Muslims, the Nation of Islam, and Brother Malcolm's people. That's the only part of the whole thing that did not, did not succeed because brothers in both group had cool enough heads to keep a blowout from happening. And when it did not happen immediately after the assassination, that night, the mosque was burned to the ground. And there's no way that anybody associated with Brother Malcolm could have gotten to that mosque that evening, and burned it to the ground the way it was. So, I, and then again, I think that was supposed to lead to the shootout and, and then the shootout still did not occur. That was the only part, I think, of the game plan that did not work that day in terms of, of his assassination. And with Brother Malcolm being assassinated, the organization which, of course, unfortunately, had built around him, it-I mean, instead of around his philosophy, it was around him. It kinda fell apart. But when I think back over him now, and when I talk to people, and they wanna know what he was. You know what I always tell people? He was a master teacher. And there is no greater loss to a community than the loss of a master teacher. And those of us who worked with him, and who learned from him, we now have to kind of spread his ideology, his philosophical positions to, you know, [truck passes] to other people. And some of us are still doing that. But he was a master teacher- He taught us.

How was-

-He taught us.

-he a master teacher?

He, I, remember before, when I kept talking about how he taught, he taught us. He taught us-

Cut please.

OK.

Mark it.

New institutions? What did this man leave as a master teacher?

I think that he left changed minds. He left us with a new way of looking at this society. He left us with a clearer vision as to what had to be done if we were to develop, you know, our power as a group. He talked about self-determination. I mean, this is still important. He talked about self-defense. He talked about education. Anybody who, who say they follow Brother Malcolm, and who do not believe in education, is, is not, you know, simply is not following him. Because he believed very strongly in education, but the right kind of education. He believed in responsibility. I mean he could be very critical of Black folks, you know, with some of the irresponsible things that he felt was going on. He, he insisted upon that we must be responsible for our own communities. He believed-as I said, he had an international of-he made most of us look abroad, and not just in that emotional sense, because so many people who, who only think about Africa with very emotional-they got cut off. You know, he, he had gave very emotional and very practical reasons why we had to have an international a, a, a posture in international positions. He was a, he was a teacher. He taught. He lef, like any teacher, he left behind people who then take what he has done, and present on to other people, to keep it and, you know, perpetuate it. When you think about a teacher, a master teacher, and I've developed a concept of dance, because they always talk about the master dancer. Where even a person who's a great dancer will go listen to a master dancer teach. That's the way I felt about Brother Malcolm, he had that same kind of appeal, and he left that thing with us to develop, to learn, to develop our minds, to, to continue to move, to continue to work, to continue to, to try to, to, to organize our Black people around a, a unified concept. Not because we feel as though we can be isolated in the world, and don't have to deal with other people. Nobody believes that. That's impossible. Nobody can function in the world. But that when you deal with other people, that you deal with them from a position of respect, and power, and, you know, and, and that you're not sitting at the table asking all the time. That you are there because, you know, and you can demand just as much as everybody else can. He taught us that, that we must, that our minds-he used to say that the revolution that we need is a revolution of the mind. That it is our minds that need to be, you know, revolutionized. And that if we develop ourselves, and develop our mentalities, and develop our minds, and then function on that level, we'll, we'll almost automatically do the correct thing on a political and an economic level. He could analyze the system, you know, I never could, you could never look at the American system again, after listening to him. I mean, even when you talk about slave-I remember he told us the three kinds of people involved with slavery. You know, you never heard about that before.

Legacy.

His legacy?

Black national.

His legacy? He was a continuation of the whole Black nationalist concept. He was a follower of Marcus Garvey, Martin Delany, and people of that type. People who still-he was not some isolated, he was a part of a continuity in Black American history. And it is the-it is-and his legacy was that he, he reached more people with it than anyone else did. Not because I'm gonna say that he was better than these men who preceded him, but because of the change in the time. There was more better communications. You were able to reach many more people in many more different kind of ways with television, for instance, that they did not have. So, his, his message, he carried the, the nationalist's message further than any of them had ever been able to because of, of the times in which he, in which he operated.

And Elijah Muhammad?

And Elijah Muhammad was also a part of that, you know, despite the fact that we may-