— and he wrote a good bit.

Oh, he did. He was an absolutist, right?

Yeah, he was, he was a pacifist anarchist.

A pacifist anarchist. OK.

[laughs]

Anyway, what we're going to talk about— why don't you tell the story of your experience at Big Flats, and your, relationship with the secretary of, for the fascist leader— fascist leader, that sounded a little more intense than I—

Everybody else seemed to be telling their background, too, so I—

Yes, and that, too. So why don't you start by just introducing yourself and telling us a little about what you, what happened to you in World War II.

OK. So I start talking now?

Yes, go ahead. I think, yes? We're rolling now. Good. We're rolling.

Well, [coughs] I'm interested in how many of the men here grew up in Quaker, Brethren, Mennonite families, because I didn't. I grew up in a Methodist family, and I also was a city person, and not urban, as, not rural, as many of them have been. I grew up in Lakewood, Ohio, which is a large suburb of Cleveland, practically a part of the city, so that I rode the streetcar downtown. And, my parents were members of a big Methodist church there, one of the largest Methodist churches and a fairly rich one, which meant it had a very good Sunday school program, and I, I got [laughs] a good grounding in what, what you're supposed to learn in Sunday school. And at that time the Methodist church had a very good youth program, led by a couple of radical ministers in Detroit, who were associated with the Reuthers, who formed the auto workers union, and so on— Blaine Kirkpatrick and Owen Geer, and they ran a very exciting program. I became a pacifist as a result of the teachings of the Methodist church, and, and generally the emphasis was on the social gospel, you know, concern for others, reform of society so there'll be equality and justice. And—

Let's stop for a sec while she walks through.

[laughs]

Well, you know what I'd like to ask you.

Yeah.

Why— OK, you became a pacifist on the basis of your, your Methodist teachings, and yet millions of other Methodists didn't become pacifists on the basis of those same teachings. How did you interpret those to become a conscientious objector?

Well, as they got reinforced—

Let me start over again, and ask you— you didn't introduce yourself, number one—

Alright.

— and number two, you need to incorporate my question into your answer, because they won't hear my question. So, if I ask you what motivated you, you need to say, what motivated me was, or—

Well, I'm George Watson. I, I don't think I became a fully committed pacifist as a result of, of being a young Methodist, but I got well-started on the way. Then, with war coming on— I mean, it was in the wind in the early '30s, and with the Depression on, I became very much disillusioned because I felt the Methodist church was being hypocritical, and not practicing what it had taught me. When there was an issue of whether they would continue to support a, a missionary couple in India or buy a new carpet for the, for the church, they bought the new carpet. And the two exciting leaders of the youth movement got fired because they were too radical. And, and I also found that I wasn't really an orthodox Christian, and so I left the church when I was in high school, and became a socialist, of Norman Thomas, the non-communist socialist. And I remember, I canvassed, my street for the socialist candidate for governor, who was the pastor of an Evangelical and reformed church up the street from where I lived. So, that also gave me a strong internationalist slant, which was a part of the evolution of my thinking. And so by the time I went to college, I was very much in that direction, but not fully committed yet. In college I got involved with my future wife, and, I don't want to tell this story at great length, but we grew up on the same street, and our families were friends. We met on a blind date in college, and neither of us would've gone if we'd known it was the other, because it'd be like dating my sister. [laughs] But, when you'd paid a dollar for the big Saturday night dance, you didn't waste it. And so, we discovered that we could get along pretty well. She had a strong Methodist background also, but she had been very much exposed to the, the story of the activities of Gandhi, and became deeply committed to Gandhi, and went around making speeches about Gandhi when she was in high school. And, of course, that was a very strong pacifist orientation.

Could I, is this, is this jacket driving you nuts?

I was wondering— yeah.

Yeah. If you could either sit— if he doesn't move with, we're OK, right?

If he doesn't move it's fine, but, I know it's chilly, but—

Can you not move, it's scratchy, you hear the—

Oh, I'm sorry. [laughs]

It's alright—

We can hear it, but—

Yes.

— we can't see the source of it.

Yes.

OK, I'll try not to move.

Try not to move, cause the story's great, I want to hear more about— your wife was speaking—

Yeah.

— in high school about Gandhi. OK.

And, went on doing it after, after we were in college. And, so she influenced me also. And, in our senior year in college, Bishop Paul Jones, who was a very interesting leader in the pacifist movement— he'd been an Episcopal bishop in the First World War, and had been kicked out of the church because of being a pacifist, and he now was a Methodist bishop, and was in trouble, because he was being a pacifist, too. [laughs] But he came to our campus at Miami University in southern Ohio, and gave a series of lectures in, Easter week that year, and when he left, there was a Fellowship of Reconciliation chapter on campus, and we were members of it. [coughs] So, we had that commitment that evolved out of the background of both of us. And, we ended in Chicago as graduate students at the University of Chicago, she also studying at Chicago Theological Seminary. And, she had thought she had wanted to be a professional preacher, like her grandfather, but, there was a prejudice against women, and, even in the congregational church. There were hardly any other women in the seminary then. Also, we wanted to find a church connection that believed in peace even when there was a war on, [coughs] which clearly our, Methodist church hadn't quite done. And, so, we, we began attending the Friends Meeting on campus at the University of Chicago, and very quickly realized that this was where we belonged, and we became active members. And we were married in 1937, so this was early 1938 that we became members. And, we worked at it, we read a lot of books, and, this was an activist meeting—

Hold on a sec, I think we've got—

— particularly—

I think we've got a sound problem.

Am I drumming my fingers or something? I'm sorry.

You were, but it's not that, it's—

It's good now.

Oh, it's the airplane.

Yeah, it's the airplane. But it was just around when he said we wanted to find a church that could believe in peace even when there was a war. That's what I think we missed.

Well—

And, and there was a cough there, too, so I would just have him repeat that.

OK.

It was important.

Well, we wanted to find a religious connection with a group that believed in peace, even when there was a war going on. And we knew [coughs] we knew the Quakers were like that. So, there was a meeting on campus, we began attending it, and found that that was really, our home.

Did, Methodists only believed in peace during peacetime?

Well, that's kind of a crude statement, but [laughs] that was the way we saw it, that we'd been taught peace by the Methodist church, and then as the war came on the church began to back out from that position. And, there were a lot of others like us, who, who were Methodists, became conscientious objectors, so it did have influence on others, too.

Did you sign the Oxford pledge? The pledge to not, that you wouldn't fight?

I'm not sure whether I did or not. I knew of it, I could easily have done that, but I don't remember it as a specifically important incident in the process.

Did you, as a pacifist during those years, as, as, as there were many pacifists during those years, and then a lot that changed dramatically after Pearl Harbor, did you feel abandoned by people who proclaimed their pacifism until there was a war?

No, because the Friends Meeting stood firm. So, we had this religious home among people who thoroughly supported the position, and who, who reinforced it. In fact, I probably ought to tell you the story of Paul Douglas, who became senator from Illinois later. Paul was a founding member of our meeting. He was professor of economics at the University of Chicago. We both studied with him, and, knew him as a member of the meeting. And he was a firm pacifist, early, but sometime in the early 1930s he took a trip, in which he visited Nazi Germany, and he came back convinced that you, the only way to deal with this was you had to fight it by military means. So, he abandoned the, traditional, peace testimony of friends, and, and that made him feel uncomfortable, so that, after he— well, of course, he went off to war. Volunteered as a member of the Marine Corps at the age of fifty. And, after the war, he came back badly wounded, but he recovered his health and ran for the senate and was elected. And when he came back to Chicago, while he was s senator, he would sometimes sneak in the back of the Friends Meeting when he was home for the weekend, because he was somewhat embarrassed by knowing that some members of the meeting were critical of him. But, we were strong supporters of him, because this was clearly a conscientious position, and as far as I'm concerned, it's conscience that's the primary thing, and pacifism is, is the right thing if that's where your conscience leads you. And his conscience had led him the other way. I must say that someone who has held your position, and moved away from it, is one of the most difficult people to argue with in the world, [laughs] because he, he knows all the arguments and he's ready to counter them. But Paul's a wonderful person, and even though we disagreed, we also supported him politically, and, but this is, this suggests the kind of mixture there is among Friends in, in the view of these things.

Is he still alive?

No.

Can we get that again about, even though, that conscience is the main thing, and pacifism is secondary, because of the plane.

Oh, there was noise again? I'm sorry.

Oh. [laughs] Well, we supported him, and, and the people who thought that he ought to be ran out of meeting, we just disagreed strongly, and there never was a real movement for that, because, of the, conscience is, is the basic thing. When you have, know, in effect, referred this issue to the inner voice, and, and found what guidance there is from that source, then that's where you, that's, that's your right position. And this following of conscience is more important than any particular principle, like pacifism. It leads those of us who are Friends mostly to be pacifists, but, we didn't, we didn't think any less of him, because he had conscientiously found his way to another position.

That sort of explains a question I've been having since I've been here, cause I've always sort of assumed that most, that most Quakers were conscientious objectors, but, in fact, the opposite is true, that most Quakers actually volunteered to fight or were, were drafted during the war, and didn't, didn't—

Yeah, I think it was probably—

— declare themselves—

I don't really know, but—

It said eighty-five percent in the meeting yesterday, I, if it was somebody who knew what they were saying—

Seventeen percent were [unintelligible]

Do you need me to change the tape?

I—

I'm sorry, yes, go ahead.

Yeah, it, the principle, it was founded on principles of human equality. No quotas. Equal opportunity, not only in the student body but in the faculty—

OK, hold on.

— and even on the board of trustees.

OK. Maybe we should talk about that just briefly. If you could talk about how your, just, if you could crystallize—

Well—

— what CPS—

Should I, should I put it in sequence? [laughs]

Yeah. Tell people—

Cause I was holding that for—

Right. What was the experience in CPS camps—

Yeah.

— for you? What are, what are the—

Right.

— high points, what made it—

Well, let me— whole process. It's more than just in camp, I think, that I ought to talk about. My first job in 1939 was teaching at Southern Illinois University, in Carbondale, Illinois, which is what other people have referred to as the Bible belt. It's really very Southern culture, even though it's in Illinois. It's thirty miles north of the tip of the state, south of St. Louis, and so on. And, it was a, an institution that was emerging from being a teacher's college to become a university. And, I was one of the group of liberal arts PhD's that was brought in as, an important stage in this process. And, so that's where we were when the Draft Act was passed in 1940.

Mm-hmm. What was your area? What did you teach?

Political science. So, there I was, as a, know, a committed pacifist, who'd been quite active in the peace movement in Chicago while we were graduate students. I knew the law, because I was a political scientist, [laughs] and there wasn't anybody else available, so I invented draft counseling. Lots of other people did, too, and it wasn't even called that then, but I started counseling conscientious objector students, because there was nobody else to do it. Some of them were as old as I was, but that was alright. I knew it. And, as a result, I was well-known to the draft board there, and we went round and round on many issues, because they were trying to railroad everybody they could get their hands on.

And you were still, you had not been drafted yet.

No.

No.

We had one child while we were there, in 1939 to '41—

In [unintelligible].

— then we moved back to Chicago.

I'm sorry, in my bag—

— which is downstairs.

OK. And we should finish in ten minutes.

OK. Ten minutes.

K. We moved back to Chicago, and, I had a job with a public administration organization— that's my professional specialty— on the University of Chicago campus. We, we, we were going along in a kind of a quiet way with this operation, while war went along, too, because we went back in '41, just before Pearl Harbor. And, I was drafted quite late— March, 1945— because I had three children. And there was a rule, under selective service, that the fathers of three children would not be drafted. But, Battle of the Bulge came along and everybody got jittery, so they wiped out that rule. And draft boards all over the country refused to draft fathers of three children, but my draft board was just waiting for the chance to draft me. [laughs] And so, I went in, in March of '45, leaving my wife and three preschool children to manage as well as they could with no income. That was the hard part of it. Fortunately, my wife was able to work in a settlement house where we had lived when we were graduate students, to provide room and board for herself and the children, and it actually worked out quite well, but it was a time of pretty severe stress. Meanwhile, I, then, was sent to Big Flats for three months, which is an orientation period. And see, at, Big Flats at that time was primarily an orientation camp. And there I met a lot of these people who are here now, including Steve Carey, who I commented on. And, it was a forestry camp. I learned to wield an axe, which I never had done as a city kid, and that's stood me in good stead. But after three months there, I was then kind of drafted to go to the National Service Board Office. I, it was my professional field. And so I served for eight months there. At Big Flats, there was quite an interesting range of people. And, there was this one man, who was no pacifist. He was actually a pro-Nazi. He had been the secretary to Gerald L. K. Smith, the leading fascist in the United States.

Should we have him repeat that?

Yeah.

This is important, and we're getting a lot— did they stop pound, they stopped pounding over there?

They stopped pounding—

That was quite a sneeze.

We do— do we want to wait till Karen gets back?

We'll take a note, on this tape—

[laughs]

— that we have to, cause we can dub it in the beta. Go ahead.

Should I go on?

Are we rolling?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, Eric? OK, go ahead.

He was, he was the secretary to Gerald L. K. Smith, the leading fascist in the United States—

Oh, now we've got an airplane.

— use this and everyone falls over.

OK, OK.

OK, so, back to our fascist friend.

This man had been the secretary to Gerald L. K. Smith, the leading fascist in the United States, and his draft board really didn't know what to do with him. He was a pro-Nazi, so he didn't want to fight against Germany, and they didn't want him in the armed services, and so they sent him to Civilian Public Service. And there he was, obviously a thorn in the flesh of everybody in the camp. But, I got along with him pretty well, because he was an extremely good contract bridge player, and so was I, and we had a bridge group going. So most of what I saw of him was across the bridge table, where we got along alright.

What did he chat about at the bridge table?

I don't remember.

So you didn't have—

And when you're a serious player, you don't chat, you just do your bidding and play.

That's true. This might have been the only time—

[laughs]

Did, had Steve Carey—

It sort of shut him up, yeah.

Steve Carey talked about the, the, camp being a real opportunity for people to, firm up their beliefs. It sounded like you came to that experience with pretty firm beliefs.

Yes.

Do you think you influenced—

After all, I was well-established into my career, I had a family of three children, I knew what I stood for, and my wife was in complete agreement with me, my Meeting supported me, neither set of parents did, but that was, they, they loved us and they put up with us, so that, I didn't need to have my beliefs firmed up. They were already solid.

Do you think you, helped other people to clarify their beliefs?

[overlapping] I think I may have. In fact, before I was drafted, I had visited some Civilians Public Service camps, as a representative of the Chicago office of the American Friends Service Committee, so that I knew what was going on at them, and I had talked to the people there, so on, so I, I was already in a kind of leadership position. And, so it, it, I didn't need that to firm me up.

Maybe one, one more question, which is just about mentorship. And you've been a teacher, and you've been a, you know, I mean, as a teacher of political science— which is my field, and I was mentored by political theorists who influenced me a lot. What, do you think that you've been a mentor to other people as a pacifist and as a, or do you consider yourself a pacifist? Would you use that—

Oh, yes.

Oh yes, you did say that—

I would.

— say your a pacifist. And, and an anarchist, you said?

No.

No.

That was Corbin Bishop—

That's Corbin—

— who was an anarchist— — oh, I heard that word, and [unintelligible].

I think any Quaker has a certain amount of anarchist in, in, but no, I'm, I'm for the use of government for many good purposes. I'm opposed to military, military activities.

And, and how do you see your role as a mentor, and do you think that's an important role for someone, for the, the people who are here today, and, and, people who have—

Yes, I think it is. I think that telling our stories, discussing the values of these things— I have had a, a very happy recent mentorship, experience. There's a small organization in the Twin Cities called Friends For a Nonviolent World, which is like, the American Friends Service Committee, but is local. And, I'm on the board. In fact, I've been the clerk of that board for awhile. And we have summer internships, for two college students every summer. And I have been involved in serving as a mentor for those interns for the last few summers, and I find that a very satisfying experience, to help them find their own way into the aspects of working for peace, and believing about peace, that, that is their natural development. I think this is much more important than preaching to them what they ought to believe. And I find it a very congenially activity. I wish I had time—

What do you think about legacy, Judy?

Yeah. Oh, that, I'm sorry, finish, that, what, the other thing—

I just wish I had time to tell you about Friends World College, which was where I was for eight years before I retired, which is a, a small, small Quaker college on Long Island where students, it's all without walls. Students engage in independent study projects all over the world, and mentoring is the principal faculty activity there, so that there was a good model of mentoring that I had participated in for a number of years that I've then been able to apply to our interns.

It's, and, so that's, that's an important, so you really have seen that mentor—

Yes.

— activity, in, in action—

And I think it's very important for those of us who have experience and commitment to help young people find their own commitment, and search out their own experience, and make it a part of their own lives.

How do you do that?

[laughs]

Just as a model, do you model it for them, or do you—

To some extent. The younger members of the Friends Meeting I've often talked with about this sort of thing, and, with these, interns, I've, helped each of them program a plan of study and, and work on aspects of the program of the organization that, that seemed most congenial to them. Again, I think this experiential process of testing what kind of activity you're called to do, and what kind of developing, understanding, and belief works out right for you. It's terribly important to help young people do this.

Well, one of things we're going to look at in this film is not just what happened during World War II, but how that, the group of people, this, this group that's represented here, this week, that, what they went on and did in the world. And, what, what do you think stands out as the most important legacy of, of the CPS camps, and of the, and—

As a political scientist.

Yeah, and as a professional looking at these kinds of things.

Well, I think that, I, undoubtedly the leadership in the peace movement, and all the other activities of the Religious Society of Friends, and I suspect it's true for the Brethren and Mennonites, is, is the most important legacy. The—

Can you say that again, and give me a whole sentence about it?

Alright. I think the most important legacy of CPS is the way the men who went through this process have formed the leadership of their religious denominations, and of the peace movement, in the United States for a couple of generations after they got out. And from then till now. [laughs]

That's exactly what we needed. [laughs] We needed somebody to say that, and it's good coming from you, since you've got a professional perspective on it.

Yeah.

Anything else that you think is important that people need to know about this experience, and about what it meant to be a CO in World War II, that they might not understand, or might be—

Well—

Surprised to hear? Wait for this plane goes by.

What about Hitler?

What about Hitler. What about Hitler? Oh, oh, you're, I thought you were asking me. I'm kidding. [laughs]

Yeah, Judy, what about Hitler?

Yeah, what about— what did you say when people said that? Did people say that to you, what about Hitler?

Yeah—

And do they still?

I said that it's my fundamental belief that in the long-run things will be better if you do not fight violently. I think one of the things we most need in the peace movement is to develop a very strong understanding of how to engage in effective nonviolent resistance. I think we aren't as strong on that as we should be. I think Gene Sharp, who's been working on this kind of thing for some years, is someone we ought to be paying more attention to. But this, I think, is, is a contribution we all ought to be making.

It's too loud. It's too loud? Say it again? Where's Gene Sharp. New York somewhere?

He's at, he's in, in Boston.

Oh, Boston.

He's taught at Harvard and some of the other schools around there. But he's published some very—

We can do it now.

— very important books.

Give me a title that we should look at.

We have those.

No? OK, we have those. We have Gene Sharp? I haven't read him.

That's just the kind of question I'm hard at answering. [laughs]

That's alright. OK, I've got, I'm getting, collecting such a huge library at this—

— books, but when I'm asked for a title—

OK.

— blooey. [waves hands]

OK, just say that again, what you think that, I'm sorry, I, now—

Well, I think that—

Developing effective nonviolent—

Yeah, do, effective, effective techniques of nonviolent resistance, organized, comparable in commitment and capacity to deliver to the military itself. And this, this is what we really need in order to develop an effective alternative to fighting Hitler with violence.

That, you need to start that again, cause you started in the middle, and kind of went in both directions. Just give me a whole sentence. [laughs]

[laughs]

I mean, I know you were, were picking up on something, but we need it all on one piece.

You need a whole paragraph! [laughs]

Yeah, I need a paragraph, I don't need the, yeah, I got the fourth sentence and the first sentence.

A paragraph without a point—

Alright. People ask what do you do about somebody like Hitler. And my answer is that I'm convinced that in the long-run, it's worse to fight him violently than it is to find ways of resisting nonviolently. And developing the techniques of effective nonviolent resistance, on a national and international basis, is one of the most important tasks of the peace movement for the near future. And I think we should all be paying more attention to the work of Gene Sharp, who has written in this area things that I think are very good.

Well—

Does that pull it together?

Absolutely. Said as a true political science professor.

[laughs]

Good. Thank you! [laughs]