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Preferred citation:
Interview with Betty Shabazz, conducted by Blackside, Inc. on Malxolm X. Washington University Libraries, Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection.
MALCOLM X PROJECT -- BLACKSIDE PRODUCTIONS -- IT'S JUNE 29, 1993. 7 AND 1/2 IPS ON A 4 TUNE(?) 60HZ REFERENCE TONE FOLLOWS WITH MINUS 8DB.
WE'RE TALKING TO BETTY SHABAZZ AT MEDGAR EVERS COLLEGE.
ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE, TEN, ELEVEN, TWELVE.
Q: Just so you know since this is film B -- this only goes for about twelve, thirteen minutes and then we change rolls. Oh, and as much as time, as much as possible we try and keep it it time -- so when I ask you to first talk about how you first -- first impression of Malcolm first meeting him, uh, not to go forward but to try and keep it within that amount of time.
That certain amount of time or conversation?
Q: Conversation -- fine, yeah.
Framework.
Q: Yeah, that's it. OK
Q: OK, all right, so can you describe um when you first meet your husband and your first impression of him.
I met him in a meeting.
Q: I'm sorry because they won't hear my question if you can just mention his name.
had gone to this meeting uh as it was put
legs and he looked as if he was really going
to some place uh, within the confines of of
that building that was extremely important, you
know. And I said to myself that that must be
the minister you know that everybody is uh
talking about or um that this young lady had
told me about and some other people that I had
met in that setting had talked about and in a
admirable way.
speakers who was off in the jargon uh without
explanation, without examples and um I could
follow him because uh he reminded me of the
conversation that my father uh would always
Q: What was it about... when you talk about self-sufficiency, why did that appeal to you?
My father always talked about our
condition but he talked about it from a
Methodist point of view. But that there were
certain things that we had to and that we were
primarily responsible or should take
responsibility for doing certain things for
ourselves.
that you"re doing, you can do it um uh in in
such a way um, that it will bring out the best
in you, that um, whatever you're doing you
should do it in a way that will make other
people look at whatever task and and wanna do
it too so that uh everything that you do in
terms of task should be done um to some degree
of professionalism that would somehow speak
about the character of the individual who was
involved in doing it. Do the best you can do
Q: Is this what attracts you to the Nation -- I mean what -- as a matter of fact I should ask you what attracts you to the Nation of Islam?
What attracted me to the Nation of Islam?
Q: Particularly as a black woman -- African- American Woman.
parents who uh, didn't have any economic woes
who um adopted me and just wanted me to be
happy. Uh, so that I really didn't have any
consciousness about being a black woman. Um,
it was that I had to be educated, that I had
to work, that there were certain things
socially that I must, must do. That um, I had
to be religious. You know those kinds of
things that uh, parents uh try to instill in
their children, so that it really was not aabout
being an African-American woman. 0824
Q: How did he do this?
It was uh the college. It was uh more or
less the surrounding community. And I think
if you have not been directly exposed to
racism, it is very traumatic, if you're with
your parents and you have that protection and
that shield, I i-, it is much different than
being on your own, making decisions and uh I
mean it was just just very traumatic.
Q: Dr. Shabazz - - did your husband - - did Malcolm have a sense of humor?
Yes he had a -- he had a...
Q: I need to hear Malcolm in there ...
Q: Do you remember any story around that?
Not any at the moment that I'd care to share.
Q: Got you. OK. Um, let me ask you -- how was the -- the husband who who walked through that do-, different from the public Malcolm X
that everybody else thought? What did you see that was different?
What did I see that was different? Um, I"m not quite sure I understand what you're saying ...
Q: You know when people come home and they close the door, they're not the person that is out there on the podium, they're not the person who is up there speaking -- they're not even the person who's doing the press conference. They're a different -- they're a different person. And I'm wondering how that person who's at home playing with the children, talking with you is different from that public view of Malcolm X?
Q: And you mentioned um, you know in an interview that he loved to read and I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit about that.
Well he was uh ...
Q: -- Malcolm ...
-- 12281259
Q: What would he do with the children when he was home? What would Malcolm -- start the sen-, I need to hear Malcolm?
He would do uh, I would imagine
what any other father would do, he would wanna
know um, about their activities.
Q: What were the things that gave Malcolm joy? I mean people talk about ice cream and stuff like that. What ...
Pardon me.
Q: Well the things that you would wanna talk about.
held
And that we needed to move in that, in that direction. But at the same time have an uh, a general respect and tolerance and patience uh for other ethnic groups but first it was for yourself.
Q: Was there a part when um African diplomats or liberation leaders began coming to the house, for example? Were you meeting with them? Was he meeting with them?
Of course. Of course. Of course. African people are very intelligent people. African people all over the world recognize the resource of having friends. So that yes of course. MMmhm.
Q: Um, do you remember any folks that would come by the house? (unintel)
Yes, of course. I, no I don't, I would not, I would not uh call their names but uh yes of course. Mmhm.
Q: Let me stop for a moment because what I"m gonna do now is talk about um, some specific events um...
What is it that you were saying about Ronald Stokes?
Q: Uh, we"re saying that there was an incident when the police basically attacked the Mosque. And that Ronald Stokes was killed and that we have the Nation lawyer who who speaks about that. But if if you could talk about then um, the relationship that your husband Malcolm X had to the Los Angeles Mo- Mosque and to to Ronald Stokes.
OK, what point do you want to specifically bring out?
Q: Um, that there was a closeness, there was a personal relationship above and beyond the brutality and how how mad he would have been at seeing this happen -- this kind of police assault on a mosque. That there was also a special thing that he had with Ronald Stokes having you know, knowing him through the
Boston Mosque and um, you know that, there was a sense of above and beyond and also that that continuing issue of police brutality that we're showing here.
OK, I'll speak about it generally.
Q: OK. OK, however you wanna handle that then. So if you could talk about the Los Angeles Mosque and Ronald Stokes and your husband Malcolm X's relationship to those.
OK ...
Q: OK um, was there a special relationship that Malcolm had to the Los Angeles Mosque?
Mohammed and uh, some of the followers, one of
the things he said is that he has made me a
very rich man. Number 2 that thanks to him uh
there's a Mosque in every major city in
America and some outside of America. And that
was uh attributed to to Malcolm's um zeal,
energy and work.
Q: Excuse me -- we just rolled out ...
MALCOLM X -- BLACKSIDE -- JUNE 29TH, 1993 -- 75IPS ON A 42 NEAPOLITAN(?) 60 HERTZ REFERENCE TONE FOLLOWS -- MINUS 8DB.
WE'RE TALKING TO BETTY SHABAZZ AT MEDGAR EVERS COLLEGE -- THAT HEAVY NOISE YOU HEAR -- THE (UNINTEL) CANNOT BE TURNED OFF -- WE'RE ON CAMERA ROLL --- WE'RE UP TO TAKE 4.
Q: ... some kind of chronological fashion -- let me start with ... Johnson ...
Q: OK, and if you can set the scene -- we're gonna show footage of this so if you can set the scene of being a part of this large group of members of the Nation of Islam at the hospital, and what that felt like, you know what the scene looked like.
Of course uh the scene was uh very ...
Q: ... hear Johnson in there somewhere ...
it was just just outrage. No fear, just
outrage.
Q: And were you, I mean how did you feel when when all of these people at nighttime, and you can give us what that felt like to be a part of this group, this large group of people.
I don't, I don't know if you can
really on, on my part, if you can really um,
systematize feelings uh at at that point. It
was to me just a sense of outrage that that
could have happened. And yet on the other
hand, the power brokers um, somehow felt that
uh because Malcolm was able to control the the
whole uh episode that it was um, seen as as
Malcolm having power which, you know, bespeaks
of some sort of wickedness. You know that,
that maybe it was dumb
Q: Let me jump now to the Los Angeles incident with Ronald Stokes and if you can give me a sense of uh your husband Malcolm um feelings about this and was he traveling back and forth a lot them to keep in touch with the ...
Well yes and and of course we had
pictures and uh it was, it was uh it was not a
very pleasant uh kind of situation out there.
But um, you mentioned earlier Malcolm's
specialness towards uh the brother.
Q: There's another, another time in terms of the outrage, where a lot of folks felt when the Birmingham bombing happened in the ...
Oh yeah, that was, that was really unmerciful. Mmmhm.
Q: D-do you remember Malcolm's talking about - - particularly as a father he felt ...
Well, well yes, and that was one of the the uh reasons later on he felt that what we needed to do was take the whole issue to the UN. That um, it wasn't a matter of civil rights, it was a matter of human rights. And um, a lot of people had put, this was after he was expelled from that movement and a lot of people had put a lot of time and energy into the civil rights movement and felt that they didn't wanna change uh by elevating the civil rights movement to one of human rights. Um, but I think perhaps we would have been able to get more mileage out of it if we had uh kept it at at that point and then just moved to the level of human rights. Malcolm felt we needed to be involved in the human rights struggle because we would get sweeping and immediate changes you know rather than um, I am not criticizing the sit-ins and the sing-ins and and the marches. I think they got us to a
certain point. And of course we must be
grateful for all of that. But um, we really
should have moved to the human rights level.
So that all of our areas and bases would have
been covered beyond the borders and the
confinement of the United States.
Q: Let me stop for a moment.
Q: OK um, a lot of people talk about your husband Malcolm's um, very strong sense of moral code and personal code. And I was wondering if you could talk about the personal dilemma
that he faces when he finds out about Elijah Muhammad's children.
them I think needed someone to sign because
the child was going to school and they needed
a last name or something or whatever.
Q: ... if you could hold on he left. Just ran out ... Just pick it up on ...
WE'RE GOING TO CAMERA ROLL --TAKE SIX IS UP ...
Q: So you were saying he then left?
conversation he had with Elijah. And he had a
conversation with another family member and he
recalls some remarks that had been made
earlier and one of the things is that
Q: I'm sorry do you mean that Elijah Mohammed thought Malcolm knew more than.
another major incident happened while he was
reeling from that, uh one young lady was, had
left Chicago and gone back to Boston and was
gonna marry a young man and of course if
you"re gonna marry someone I guess there
should be some things you should be able to
tell them that perhaps you would not share
with others. And she shared with him that
the name of the father of her two children.
And uh the minister called my husband and and
shared it with him and he said, my husband
said, "I'll be right there." And he got on the
plane and went to Boston to try to uh deal
with that as best he could without uh uh
everyone just kinda going to pieces or uh
sharing it with everyone. And thought it was
controlled and when he returned back to uh New
I'm afraid of him um because of his past life."
Q: The minister of the Boston Mosque?
Yes. So that um my husband really could not believe that he would have lied on him particularly uh with all that he had done for him to help him get his life back on track. So that um it's just really funny how you think that people are for truth and justice for themselves. How as a people we were exploited and uh abused by another ethnic group and somehow people are under the impression that other ethnic groups will do it to you and not necessarily your own and what we have to understand is given the circumstances and the background most people will behave similarly.
Q: Let me ask you about the silencing -- um, how, how is is for Malcolm when he is silenced and then expelled, given that this for both of you have been the main community of which you were part of at the time.
Q: Who was the they who was sending the people?
I don't wanna share that.
Q: But I mean was it Nation people or was it ...
I don"t wanna share that ..
Q: OK. All right.
So that um erything that the people who called him to share with him who uh felt close to him and who were looking out for him, everything they said was correct and it happened just as they called it.
Q: Did Malcolm talk with you about, that the FBI-infiltration of the Nation when he was still there?
Yes we all knew it.
Q: would you be able to just say that within a sentence 'cause they're not gonna hear my questions.
What, what is it that you want me to say?
Q: Um that they knew about FBI infiltration because they won't hear what I asked you.
OK, um, you wanna know about FBI
infiltration.
[The following is labeled Malcolm X B. Shabazz 6-29-93
Q: One fourteen and uh ... Malcolm X. Blackside. So, seventy-five BSN oh four two, [???] sixty Hertz, reference tone follows of minus eight Db.
Q: unintel.
Q: We're on camera roll two three three, we're up to take seven.
M: This looks good.
Q: Mm-hm-hm-hm.
Q: I'm just going to pick up with your last
statement so it's also on the
N' I've said it already. Not sayin' it again.
Q: Okay. All right.
Mm-hm.
Q: Um, the question is that if you knew who
the agents were, how, how were they able to
They were not agents. They were informants. At that particular time, they didn't have...eh, black agents. They had informants. They didn't get all of the information. They just were able to get some information.
Q: And was there any way that Malcolm was able to protect himself against them, knowing who they were? Ah, to in some way protect himself.
Eh, well, of course, of course. Of course, yes.
Q: Let me just make a leap . Um, when you go down to Muhammed Ali's camp, um, when we're talking with Atallah, she gives a sense of this as kind of a ... the one vacation time she remembers. And I was wondering if you could talk about that, as kind of the first time, or maybe ... you know, what that meant. For the family.
Well, w-we had had other
vacations. Okay? Ah, little mini-junkets,
and maybe ah ... maybe she didn't consider them
ah, uh vacations, but I certainly did. Any
time we left home, we, we were away ah
summers. In the Catskills. My husband would
rent a cottage. You know, so that ... but this
was ah big time. This was on a plane, even.
Ahm, but um ... it was an experience, perhaps,
for the children ahm ...
interstitially.
greatest! Aaah'm the greatest!" you know, my
husband told him, "you're the greatest." You
know? And that comes from, you know, Allah,
is the greatest, you know; he told him, you
know; and that he, God, in him. So he had to be
the greatest and he had to be the victor,
um ... dinnerware. And every day, my husband
would say, "did any thing come yet? Did, did
you get a package? D-did you get a package?"
And I would say "no. No. No." And I went,
oh, God, what is going on with this package?
You know? So, of course, ah, they...mail
system is as good as gold, but it was slow!
And so I got it and and so that I, every time
I ah use the silverware, I think of that
incident. But he, he stayed with him.
Q: Does he talk to you when he comes back, back from Africa and, about being ignored or shunned by Ali. In Africa.
No. Was not important. Ah, w- when was ignored or shunned?
Q: We understood this happened in Ghana. And that he saw um, he and I guess Alice Windom? - the group around [???], saw Malcolm and Malc- and um, saw Ali and Ali's brother. And that Ali kind of turned his back on Malcolm. This was after--
No, but, see, what what you have
to understand: you have to understand that
movement. M-M-Malcolm uh, if that happened,
understood. Uhm, eh, h-he was a champ now.
The ah, parasites had him. Ahm, and I'm sure
no one wanted him to associate himself uh with
Malcolm, at, at that particular time. But,
uh, Malcolm ...
helped Ali win that fight. Why? Because
Malcolm believed in him, and wanted Allah to
believe in him. And wanted Ali to believe in
himself.
Q: But even within that, you don't feel that there would have been something that --
N-no! Of course- no. No. Why?
Why? No, absolutely not. Mm-mn. And
did not understand the tenets of that
Q:
Q: Okay, so ... Malcolm has now been silenced you are still in the mosque. How are the two of you dealing with that?
Malcolm was... he was in charge.
He was the boss. We were partners. We were
equal, all of it, okay?
understanding the rumor. The rumors that had
been put out by Elijah Muhammad. The rumors
that ... moved him from Chicago, from Detroit to
Chicago, and the behavior continuing. And,
Q: Um, how did you- how did you two work out-
Oh, yes, yes! So that- I went
to ... the mosque and I came home and I just
said that was it; I wasn"t going back. The
things that they were saying were- they were
untrue.
worked. I knew the times that we would be
asleep, when he would get a call from Elijah
Muhammad to go here, to do that, or to help a
family member out, .or ... to- to- just ... worked
him totally to death. So I decided that I
would not go back. And I did not.
Q: At what point do you think your husband understood- stood that he [glitch] going back in again?
he was not going back. Urn, he just went along
with it.
was not aware that the two of them had a
heated conversation about me earlier on. Um,
he felt that my husband should not have
married me. That Allah had sent me ahm, to
Q: Can you talk a little bit about ... about how you and Malcolm are dealing with the fact that the Nation tries to take the house away from you?
Well, number one, I I guess I was
a little naive and, and- because I was
shocked. I, I should have um, understood, you
know. That you can have evil doers in every
ethnic group.
campaigns that I ever was p- a part of when I
joined that movement, was uh, a financial
campaign to raise money ah, so that Elijah
Muhammad could take his children from the jobs
they had, menial jobs, one construction, one
cleaners, one whatever, so that his sons could
work for him, and his daughters. They could
work for him and he could pay them. That was
one of the first campaigns and I was a
student, and I can remember givin' my little
money because I thought this was, was a great
thing.
Every money- every month he brings me money." You know. Of course that was the money that was divided between the twenty-two children.
Q: Was there a certain irony to the fact that Malcolm puts the royal family up and that that is what helps destroy him?
Even if he knew it would destroy
him, he would have eh, did the same thing
because he probably felt that black people
needed to be able to point to something.
Q: I'm going to ask you about the women piece.
M: Mark.
Q: Um, what is Malcolm's attitude towards the role of women while he's in the Nation? And, more specifically, how does he relate to you while he's in the Nation?
Number one, there ... in th- as part of the ritual, there was a behavior code for men and for women. And he was observing the behavior code of that movement. Okay? The other part was ah, he did not want to be um, ah seduced. Okay? And um ... so it was, was really more on I'm ab- I am abiding by the behavior code. I'm abiding by the folkways and the mores of this religion, because, number one, of that movement. It wasn't- it's
not a religion, we understand that- that now. Ah, but that, there were uh people, uh women, who every day seduce someone and there was um ... a punishment attached to that. Of where you w- walk in with a um, in full attendance, all of the members. Ahm, and uh, uh receive your punishment er, and they would name places, dates, the whole bit, and he didn't want to be a part of that. So that, he was be- uh, ah abiding by the behavior codes of that movement. And he didn't want to be seduced. And, and of course, you know, ah, there were a lot of people who, ah, wanted to seduce him. You know. So that he- the poor guy was runnin' for his life. Ye-d'ye-heh! Do you know what I'm saying? And it wasn't not necessarily against the women as much as trying to stay on the straight and narrow. Right. Ah because it was happening every day.
Q: Now, what did he view, though, as the as the proper role of a Muslim woman? While he's in the Nation.
W-whatever the dictates were. Whatever the um, ah, the code of ethics for
women happened to have been. You know? And he didn't violate it. And I- I would, uh, imagine that some of his enemies wanted him to violate it so they would have something over his head. He was a free man. You know. And ah, and ... they couldn't get it. Y'know?
Q: Now he gives- uh- he a- we have a speech where he's ta- talking about seeing women, sisters who were in the liberation movements, and that begins to see the role of women perhaps differently at that point. And I'm wondering if you see any difference in the way that he relates after he leaves. The Nation.
No. He's always uh, behaved
toward me the same way.
Q: And in terms of the way he w- what he wanted for his daughters . Was that part of that also?
Education. Yes. To be education
and skilled, and ... yes. Um, eh there again,
all uh, minorities have seen education as
another step towards freedom. It is not
freedom within itself. But uh, y'know, I
never would have been able to help him like I
helped him ah, had I not had some degree of
education. Because there was no one else to
do it. Y'know? So that, yes, um, and uh,
sometime to deal with uh a conceptual
framework, we would just talk about, he- he
wanted to know, what are your ideas on this?
What are your ideas on that? Eh, why? When?
You know, and I'd just, oh God, I would go up
the wall.
Q: Let me go back to the Hajj. Um. And do you see a spirit, a spiritual change in Malcolm after he comes back from the Hajj?
Let me just tell you that the
whole ah, pilgrimage ah, it certainly has a
profound effect on the- on human beings.
the World Court for its maltreatment of our
people regardless to where they lived uh on
earth. And a lot of people um, were
frightened by it. Felt that it was a ghastly
idea, but it was, I think, the best possible
idea. Um. For our people. If that is a
world court. Okay? And if you are s- to
address world issues, then that's where it
Q: C-can you give a sense also of urn, any changes that you see in him after he comes back from his trips to Africa? When Attallah was talking she just said its [glitch] people, for example, in the house. New, you know, different kinds of folks and, I don't know, I mean, is there a change that you noticed in...?
Ah, he was not as girdled as he
was by that movement. Ah, he was not
encouraged to have uh, foreigners um... of any
sort uh, in the meetings, y'know.
whatever means necessary to bring about a
society where our people are respected and
treated as human bei ngs regardless to where
they live.
Q: Could I just get back too to the, to that last um, year. Can you give a sense of how hectic his schedule is. Traveling with him within the States?
I wou- I wouldn"t say hectic. Hectic gives the impression of unorganized.
Q: Oh, okay.
Uhm, busy, yes. Ah, a lot of
things were being put in place. Lot of
support and people um, from around the world.
Um, all sorts
Q: It's ... we've rolled out. We're still running while you--
Q: Camera roll two
Q: All right. Here you are.
And also what you do, what Malcolm does, what the kids do?
questioned by the de- fire department. But
uh, some other people came by and, and uh,
they went to all of the members of the Black
Muslim movement who lived in the area who had
moved there because of my husband, y'know.
And, and there were lights on throughout their
houses and apartments. And uh, car hoods were
warm in some places. So it was ah, a very
confusing time, but he was- he was still in
charge. I just was ... kind of there, that was
Q: What was the reaction of your daughters.
Q: What do you do after the firebombing?
We were offered a, a house in
Jersey. And I, I will not call the guy's
name but he offered me a house in Jersey and I
didn't, I didn't know the uh terrain so that I
did not
for the sake of my children. So that there
would be some, some continuance. So uh and my
husband stayed in the hotel. And uh had
dinner with him once. Then he came over once
after a radio program. And that was that. FG8969
Q: Can you give a sense of -- of the last week and and what's going on in the conta-, the days that are -- I mean I understand Percy is is helping you all to do a will, and you're house hunting, that he has lots of speaking engagements -- can you -- can you give a sense of that.
Yes, as a matter of fact he spoke at Dartmouth and uh just last year um or earlier in the year, they named the center after him that students start calling it uh Malcolm X Center after Malcolm spoke there. They just, after 20 something years just just named it and uh pretty much um uh alumni and uh some present students and urn trustee and others you know was uh a marvelous function.
Q: But in now, in terms of that, back then, that particular week ...
FG9235
was his sister did that. But uh anyway it was crowded with activities that um needed to be uh taken care of.
Q: OK, let's stop. Um ...
Q: OK ... talking about Captain Joseph uh when does the relationship start to go bad between Malcolm and Captain Joseph and if you could just name those names?
the local membership collect money for him.
Q: Why do you think Captain Joseph agreed to it?
I don-, kno-, I I don't know. don't know.
Q: Did Malcolm talk about this at all?
Sure of course we talked about everything. Um, at at that point uh we
probably talked about more than than um than
TAKE 12 -- WE'RE TALKING TO PROFESSOR SHABAZZ
Q: OK , talking about that morning of the 21st , can you talk about the call that you got and how feel as you're going to the Audubon that day.
The call that I got from my
husband? Well th-,
Q: Did you wanna try talk about going there ...or is anything you want to say about any of that?
Like what?
Q: To talk about what it's like when you see him at the Audubon -- you've seen him for the first time in 24 hours um and walking into the Audubon.
Q: And then what happens?
Well you know what happened.
when I moved back and kind of raised up I saw
my husband falling back -- falling back. He
didn't bend. He just fell straight. And then
I tried to -- I forgot my children. I tried
to get to him and uh I had just finished my
first trimester of pregnancy. So a lot of
people didn't know that I was pregnant but I
was uh trying to get to him on stage and I was
held back by a woman who claimed that she
didn't do it.
And but for the grace of God there were some
good people.
Q: Can you talk some more about legacy. I mean what is the legacy for young people . And then also for African-Americans and for the world?
Freedom and responsibilities and
commitment to that. And the fact that uh,
religion and politics should not be the
dividers of us any longer. Perhaps... you
can read it in my book, OK and for all of
those people who uh, who helped him and who
helped us,
Q: I still wanna ask, what would Malcolm be doing now?
I don't answer futuristic questions.
Q: Because of, there's no way of knowing what he would be doing?
Yes. Yes. It is part of my protest. Uh , he was quite capable of answering for himself. Cowards ask now. And I don't satisfy that inquiry of course he had an agenda. And I will not share it.
Q: Because.
I will not share it, no because ... it 's part of my protest.
Q: Uh, one, one kind of last question -- these books have indicated that the day, day Malcolm was assassinated, (unintel) was to those who were trying to get him. But that kind of information is in these books which you feel is correct.
I'm not even sure what you're asking me.
Q: Some recent books have suggested that Malcolm had a list of those who were going to try and assassinate him and that he was going to make that list known, the day of his assassination. And my ...
He had a list of names of people who wanted to assassinate him or he had a list of names of people who had tried to assassinate him. Now what are you asking?
Q: Did he talk to you about either of those lists?
... I think ...
TAKE 13 IS UP ...
Q: No we have the footage as a matter of fact ...let me go back to the question of the list -- can you talk about ... can you talk about the list that Malcolm had of those who had first attempted to kill him and suddenly were planning to attempt to kill him?
various uh uh places urn that the black Muslim
movement uh had uh every week every month and
uh Malcolm was always able to avoid them. Uh,
some of them who came from places on the East
Coast -- he recognized.
Q: Did he think that there was any way he could protect himself against this?
Well if I say to you that they had uh tried for a year and a half and had not been successful, it's obvious isn't it?
Q: Why do you t hink it was successful that one day?
Why do you think?
Q: I don't know.
I' m sure you're intelligent.
Q: Is there anything that could have been done to prevent it?
Perhaps. If you look back over it, hindsight.
Q: OK, let me um, let me just ask is there a nything else that we haven't covered?
I have no idea.
Q: OK, no, that you would particularly want to say.
No, none other than uh I think Malcolm um and certainly and uh the history of
my life um he stands out as a uh one of the
greatest leaders that I have ever known or
read about. And although our people don't
have their full human rights, it is not to say
that people need to give up hope because I
think it will come.
Q: And is there a particular message that that Malcolm had, or legacy for young African- Americans?
Q: OK, thank you very much.
Q: What was the, I don't know if the word, if the correct word is power but the influence of, of uh a man like Elijah Muhammad that he can tear families apart like he seemed to have done your husband's family? What is it -- what was, what was it about that moment, that time you know it, they're probably quite a few ...
... so when you say tear families apart ...
Q: ... Or cause them to ...
OK, who're, who're you calling my husband's family?
Q: Well I'm saying I'm I'm a man with brothers ...
OK, OK . . . you mean the extended ...
Q: -- all my brothers in terms ...
-- extended. Extended family.
Q: Yes? How can my brother turn against me? What is it that -- what was going on in there? What was the (unintel)
Elijah Muhammad told my husband that uh, now are you asking me this off camera or you ...
Q: I'm not rolling right now.
Well ,...
Q: I I'd like to roll it if you don't mind but ...
Elijah Muhammad uh told my husband uh see initially Elijah would share things with my husband about his family. That he says to Malcolm because Malcolm was full of fire and brimstone when he got out of prison and ready to to leap with the message. And uh didn't wanna be a part of something that was
so small that that was not moving. And he would, he says to Malcolm that he liked his spirit. He liked his dedication. He liked his humbleness. And that he wanted him to make himself known. So that he would be known. And he wanted him to fish -- fish meant get new members. Malcolm had a very uh excellent way of getting people to become part of um of that movement in different towns. He would go into a town and, and uh , and he would just start uh galvanizing people and then after they got so many members they would then meet in someone's home and then after that they would uh then talk about a meeting place and uh and after this had happened about five or six times and and obvious that the movement was growing, uh and Elijah was just, just ecstatic. He could- , couldn't imagine. And he says to him, I want you to uh make yourself known. But one of the things is that when you make yourself known you will make me known. And the message will get across to a lot of people. But please be aware that people will be jealous of you. Not only just ordinary people out there. But your own brothers who have sat in this movement and done nothing.
Well you know he didn't know exactly how to take that but that was what Elijah had said. And uh, uh Wilfred used to tell him that he was going too fast, that he needed to slow down. That he shouldn't do this or that or the other. Uh, but he didn't know exactly who to believe. Elijah was saying your own brothers will be jealous of you. Uh, and yet they were saying one thing so he just kept going. He just kept doing. He didn't wanna be part of a movement that people half-stepped. He didn't want be a part of a movement uh that people might be in uh, number one to make themselves important and number two uh just to get a little money or number three just to have some name as the head of this or that. He wanted to make things move, to make things grow, uh and I used to always say to him, "You know you are a self-actualized person. " My mother used to always say that a self- actualized person was a person who did things for the pleasure of doing them. And the glory of seeing them grown. And he used to say, "Self-actualized, huh." And he would laugh. Uh, but he was not intimidated by someone else's greatness. And I think that in the
final analysis, that is one of the things that I have looked for in our leaders. Uh, people who become intimated by others or who try to trap others or who try to control others in you know. I don't think they're very good leadership material. So that um , Elijah knew obviously as as as uh, that is Elijah was, he knew that Malcolm's thrust would antagonize a lot of people and it did uh because a lot people were concerned about a shift in their own position. A lot of people who had the ear of Elijah no longer had the ear. Uh, because they were new people and different people than yo- , you know. Uh , actually that 's how uh he uh became known to uh Muslims in Muslim countries. When I made Hajj, I had my wardrobe made in in Europe. And there were two men who had come to see me who had said they had found Malcolm six years before his assassination. And they had already recognized that they needed him to help focus the Orthodox Muslim Movement. And he was being considered to be a member of the Hajj Court . It was a pleasure no-, not only to meet them and to have long conversations but to find out that they knew as much, number one
about the movement, about his family uh his, his uh siblings um and that antagonism. I mean they knew everything about him. So it was, at that point a a pleasure and rewarding to me that people recognized his goodness and and his focus. And not try to uh keep his movement uh within parameters of their own dogma. But to see him uh moving out into the stratosphere. When I was part of the bicentennial advisory uh council that was one of the things they decided to uh two two women, two white women as a matter of fact, both of them had come from Nebraska and uh they wanted a sense ... part of the bicentennial was to uh locate and identify uh different ethnic groups and to uh talk about the contributions of the mosaic. And uh they felt that uh Malcolm was from uh Nebraska and uh they were from Nebraska and uh they wanted to do something uh during the bicentennial to recognize Malcolm. So they uh were made aware that um one of his brothers lived in Lansing and uh that maybe he could get some other family members. And uh maybe they would give them the uh the address of the wife. And uh uh they could talk about some kind of plaque
for Malcolm. Some sort of uh historic landmark. And um the meeting went on on on and on and on and I never showed up at all. And then I don't know where one of the women, where she got my phone number from but it was about 11 o'clock one night, the night before the function, that I got a phone call, says, you don't me. I said well how did you get my number? Said well, let's let me talk for a minute. Are you part of the bicentennial. I says yes, a presidential appointee, yes. Well what we thought was, would be a great idea but we have not had any input from you, is that um we wanted to have a historic landmark on the site that Malcolm grew up on, grew up six years OK. And his family owned that plot of land and now there's a housing project and we would like to put a historic landmark there