Folks, I'd like to start because this will be a really [unintelligible]. We have two [pause] three things we'd like to do. I'd like to show two clips from the Eyes II, all right? Two that have been referred to today. One is on Muhammad Ali and the other one is on affirmative action, which is one of the issues that somebody in the first session brought up this morning. So, those are the two clips we'd like to show. One is fourteen minutes long or fifteen minutes long and the other one's about eight minutes long. And so, that would leave time between the two clips and after the clip for you to respond in terms of where you think you might go with some of that material if you used it. Just...what I'd like to do is put out [pause] I'd like to put out three, just three thoughts as you look at this first clip on Muhammad Ali. I think one of the problems we face, and you can throw apples at this after I'm finished with this, so, but one of the things we face when we deal with mass movements, whether it's the study of genocidal societies or whether it's the study of causes or mass movements of any kind, one of the problems we face in the classroom is how do we personalize events like that? Because if you think of the accumulation of footage or material or cases or readings or whatever you present when you discuss history like that, there's often masses of people. It's masses of people going across the Selma Bridge. It's masses of people at a rally and what kids keep seeing are lots and lots of people, two hundred or three hundred thousand at the memorial and so forth. So, somehow given all of the, all of the elements and all of the people and all of the mass organizations and so forth that are involved in this piece of history, I think somehow, we have to keep personalizing these events for kids. That's one of the reasons behind choosing this Ali piece, is that what you have in Ali is a person. You have one single man who's going through this tumultuous period. A second thought that I've seen worked into the classroom with this tape in particular is looking at the whole notion of an individual in a society. And those of you who have heard me before and other curriculum efforts and so forth know that that's one of my foci, right, foci? Is how do you look at how people get labeled and identified in a society and then how individuals and groups respond to each other, the impact of society on an individual and the impact that an individual has on that society. So, I think that's another theme that comes out of this kind of tape. And the third piece that, that I've seen works well with this, is that I think Ali or somebody like Ali or a piece like this, remember, they've got thousands of footage to deal with this stuff, that a piece like Ali can provide kids with a microcosm for looking at the wider issues of what's going on. So, it keeps it...I think that's what we have to do when we're dealing with history like this oftentimes. Again, like I said, this morning, the African Meeting House on Beacon Hill learning about the history of that is like, is a microco...it's a, it's a lens. It's a microcosm for looking at the larger issues that are going on in society and I think that's what the Ali ppiece can also do in the classroom. It's funneling your energy into one person, one piece but it, it's constantly going like this. It's looking at the particular of this man in the decisions but it's constantly looking at the universal application, the universal messages that come out of it, getting kids to apply that and so forth. So, those are at least three thoughts that I come to this with in terms of use in the classroom. What I'm trying to do in this session is to steer away from the discussion we had a little bit this morning about support in society to do this or support in our schools and all those kinds of issues. What I really like is to kind of push in on are what are some of the questions, where would you take this? Would you show it, wouldn't you show it? What do you think are some of the dangers in showing this? One of my themes often is to remind teachers and remind ourselves to think about the negative effects of what we do even though our intent is positive and we can keep coming back to that as we look at the tape, OK. So, let's take a look at this and then go from there. Hopefully [inaudible]. I don't see him up in the booth.

Quick question. Where is the archive for the montage [inaudible]?

They're gonna to talk about that this afternoon, the closing session, OK. [pause] This is like when the bee flies in the classroom, you know, and everything stops for a minute. This is about fourteen minutes long. Again, these are very rough cuts, very rough.

[sings] I know the one thing we did right was the day we started to fight. Keep your eyes on the prize. Hold on. Hold on. Keep your eyes on the prize. Hold on.

[narrates] For almost four centuries, American Negroes had been judged by White standards of beauty, culture and learning. To be accepted, many downplayed their African features and rejected their cultural heritage.

Poetry is black. Poetry is Black people. You know Black people like Black poetry, it's Black people like you and me. [inaudible].

[narrates] In the 1960s, Negros created their own standards. There were Blacks in America and Black was beautiful.

Can you really imagine whole generations living and dying and never once having loved themselves? That's what we tried to change when we moved into the Black arts, Black culture, Black consciousness movement. I said, Never again will I allow anyone to live and walk on the planet Earth and not like what they are, who they be.

[narrates] This struggle for Black pride was galvanized by the national civil rights movement. Now, Blacks began to demand a new respect from America. Among them, was a young boxer named Cassius Marcellus Clay. Clay had won the Olympic gold medal in 1960. Just four years later, he challenged Sonny Liston for the Heavyweight Championship of the world.

And I'm not going to beat myself. Can't be more clear. You tell it to your calendar, your TV man, your radio man and you my fans, the whole world. [inaudible] I'll Cassius Clay and [inaudible]. Tell him he's the greatest [unintelligible]

[narrates] Liston was considered a devastating heavyweight. He had taken the title from the previous champion with a first-round knockout.

I'm real, man. I'm real. [inaudible]. Fall in five or in four. Now I don't get hit. I'm the fastest thing on two feet, man. Is you crazy?

Yeah, I thought Liston would absolutely take this kid apart and just kill him. I mean, Liston was an absolute thug. And the very idea of this spindly kid from Louisville just out of the Olympics going in there with Liston who'd had so many fights in and out of the ring and having a chance was impossible for anybody to digest.

I saw Sonny Liston, a few days ago, Cassius.

In the open? He's too ugly to be the world champ. The world's champ should be pretty like me.

Well, he told me to bet my life that you wouldn't go three rounds.

Well, if you wanna lose your money, then bet on Sonny.

What percentage of the fans who are coming to see you fight Sonny Liston, what percentage of the fans do you feel will be coming to see him and what percentage do you feel will be coming to see you?

Well, one hundred percent will be coming to see me but ninety-nine percent will be coming to see me get beat-

You really feel [unintelligible]

-because they think I talk too much.

I remember when I was in high school, the teachers at my high school didn't like him because he was so anti-establishment and he kind of thumbed his nose at authority and got away with it and they, they didn't like that at all. The fact that he was proud to be a, a Black man and that he was...had so much talent and could enjoy it in a way that was not seen to be...that didn't have the dignity that they assumed that it should have. I think that was something that really made certain people love him and made other people think that he was, he was dangerous.

[narrates] For many, Clay's friendship with Malcolm X was especially threatening. Malcolm X was the national spokesman for the Nation of Islam.

We teach you to obey the law. We teach you to carry yourselves in a respectable way but at the same time, we teach you that anyone who puts his hand on you, do your best to see that he doesn't put it on anybody else.

[narrates] The Nation of Islam taught Black pride, self-reliance and self-defence. Many saw it as a militant separatist group. One of Clay's boxing promoters got nervous.

And he came to me, said, Angelo, unless Cassius Marcellus Clay refutes the reports out of Chicago that he's not a Muslim, I'm gonna cancel the fight. So, I said, Well, geez, I'll talk to the kid. And I said, Better still, I said, You go talk to the kid. And I made him go off into another area and speak to the fighter. So, Cassius came back, and I'm sitting in the office and he said, Angen, I don't think we're gonna have a fight. I said, Why? He said, Well, because they want me to say I'm not a Muslim and I am a Muslim.

[narrates] Clay refused to make the statement but with millions at stake, promoters went ahead with the bout.

[unintelligible] die from shock. I'm the greatest thing that's ever lived. I don't have a mark on my face. [unintelligible] Sonny Liston and I just turned twenty-two years old. I must be the greatest. I am the king of the world. I'm pretty.

Hold it, hold it. Hold it. You're not that pretty.

I'm a bad man. [unintelligible] of the world. And after beating Sonny Liston and after becoming champion, I no longer had to talk to convince people that I was the best because they knew it.

[narrates] Clay no longer tried to hide his membership in the Nation of Islam. Muslim leader, Elijah Muhammad, required his followers to drop the family names assigned by slave masters. Heavyweight champion Cassius Clay would be no exception.

But my father called me that night and asked me did I know how to get in touch with Cassius Clay. And he told me to get in touch with him if I could, and let him know that his name was, it has been changed. He was changing his name from Cassius Marcellus Clay to Muhammad Ali and that this name would connect him with five billion Muslims all around the world.

When Muhammad Ali joined the Nation, it was a continuation of what we knew was happening already. Everyone had seen Malcolm down in his camp. Everyone had seen, knew that he was teaching him and instructed him at that particular time. So, when he changed his name, we said very simply, that's his name. When people felt, when people called him Cassius Clay, we would say, That's not his name. Call the brother by his name. His name is Muhammad Ali. Go on. Do it. Get it. Walk on. And we were very pleased and very happy.

But what's in a name? The odd thing with me was the individual but the tough, tough thing about it really was that it was such a pretty name. We had nurtured it and played it up, you know, Cassius Marcellus Clay and then we was, the rhyme on it. It was a beautiful name and then he changed it to Muhammad Ali. People resented that, you know. Why, why? And a lot of people wouldn't call him but what's in a name? To me, he was still the same individual, same guy. And I actually, I didn't know what a Muslim was really because I thought it was piece of cloth.

[inaudible] Muhammad Ali. Muhammad means worthy of all praises and Ali means most high in the Asian African language.

How long have you had the name?

Well, for about two weeks now.

Did anybody special give you the name?

Yes, sir. My Muslim teacher. The most honorable Elijah Muhammad.

[narrates] In the spring of 1964, Ali traveled through Ghana, Nigeria and Egypt.

They received him as though he was a president of their country or king actually. In fact, in Ghana, I thought I might even get killed because so many people was running to Ali. I ran away from him to get...to save my life, and the same thing happened in, in Egypt.

[narrates] Ali returned to his boxing career in the States. In 1965, he began a war of words with former heavyweight champion, Floyd Patterson.

I just expressed the way I felt about the things he believed and he expressed the way he felt about the things I believe. And I only did this because of some of the derogatory things he was saying about my beliefs. He called me a White man's champion and I resented that.

[narrates] A devout Catholic, he was well-loved by the public and the press. For many in America, Patterson was a more acceptable champion than a Black Muslim like Muhammad Ali.

I would say I'm a better champion for America than Floyd Patterson. I said I am the real champion and I go all throughout the streets everywhere meeting all the people. I would say I'm the real champion.

He actually is in a better position than anyone else to restore the, a sense of racial pride to not only our people in this country but all over the world and he is trying his best to live a clean life and, and project a clean image. But despite this, you find the press is constantly trying to paint him as something other than what he actually is.

[narrates] Ali and Patterson took their fight to the ring on November 22nd 1965.

Well, it was, it was a good guy, bad guy situation where Patterson was a well-loved individual and he's fighting Muhammad Ali. And Floyd had the...he always had this thing about saying Cassius, Cassius, Cassius, you know, and it gets to be a rub after a while because then he was Muhammad Ali. The fight with Patterson, my kid was doing a number on him. Said, What's my name [laughs] pop. What's my name pop. So, I felt sorry for Floyd because Muhammad did a number on him.

[narrates] In twelve rounds, Ali defeated Patterson and solidified his right to the title. His next major fight would take place outside the ring. [pause] By December 1965, President Johnson had committed 180,000 troops to the escalating war in Vietnam. Three months after he defeated Patterson, America's heavyweight champion was drafted. Ali requested deferment as a minister of Islam and a conscientious objector. Dropping his usual bravado, Ali faced the press.

The real enemies of my people are right here, not in Vietnam. And we follow the most honorable Elijah Muhammad. Take no parts in wars as the holy Quran teaches us, we take parts in no wars on the side of infidels or Christians or non-believers in Islam. No wars unless it's declared by almighty God Allah himself or his messengers.

[narrates] Ali was training for an upcoming fight in Illinois. The State Athletic Commission demanded that he apologize for remarks they considered unpatriotic. If he refused, the commission would cancel the fight.

What about your unpatriotic remarks that you made?

I apologize for saying things to the newspapers that I should have said to the government officials or to draft board of record, I mean to say. I apologize for opening my mouth and saying things that should have been taken up with them and not with just our newspaper writers over the telephone.

Questions, have any questions to ask of him?

Mr. Clay-

Muhammad Ali, sir.

Mr. Clay-

Muhammad Ali, sir.

-Mr. Muhammad Ali, either one.

Yes, sir. I'm just Muhammad Ali.

When you appeared before the-

[narrates] The commission canceled the fight. Ali faced his next three opponents outside the United States.

When Ali made his statement that he was not gonna be a party to unjust war against the Vietcong of Vietnam, the Vietcong people, that it was a backlash from the White community. Some of them would call him all times at night threatened to bomb his house. They would throw at his house. Some even drive by in cars hollering drunk and shooting at his places and different things like that.

We feel like that if we send a boy to, from Owen County and draft him for the, for the armed forces, we feel like what's good for the goose is good for the gander, they should go [inaudible], the so-called ministers should go too.

Mr. Muhammed Ali is from Louisville, Kentucky. Did you know that?

Yeah.

He was born in Louisville, Kentucky. Do you know what's happening in Louisville, Kentucky today?

Marching for open [unintelligible].

They're marching for open occupancy. Now, here's a Black man who can't live where he wants to live in Kentucky and the monkeys gonna send him to Vietnam to fight for freedom for [unintelligible].

I think that he's hurting, I think, I think the morale of a lot of young Negro soldiers over in Vietnam. And the tragedy to me is that Cassius has made millions of dollars off of the American public and now, he's not willing to show his appreciation to a country that's giving him in my view, a fantastic opportunity, hurts a great number of people.

[narrates] Ali's request for a deferment was denied. He was ordered to report to the Houston draft board. Refusal to serve could mean a five-year prison sentence.

What might this do to your boxing career?

No comment on the boxing career. No comment on nothing. I just face the judge and that's all I face [unintelligible] the judge.

Before Ali was to appear before the Induction Board, he called me that morning as he do most morning or most nights and he was asking me, you know, like What do you think gonna happen not that what he should do. I think Ali was already convinced in his own conscience that he was gonna stand up for his principles but he always liked to bounce it off to me how I felt about it because we also realized the repercussion that this could have about his career.

[chants] Hell no, we won't go. Hell no, we won't go. Hell no, we won't go. Hell no, we won't go. Hell no, we won't go. Hell no, we won't go.

[narrates] April 28, 1967. Ali arrived at the Houston Induction Center.

Muhammad Ali and the people who were to be inducted that day came in. I explained to them that as I called their name, they would take a step forward and that step forward would constitute their induction in the U.S. Army, OK? So, then I started down through the list starting with the A's, you know. Army always starts at the A's and ends with the Z's. So, I started with the A's. And when I got down to the M's, Muhammad Ali, I said Muhammad Ali. I looked him in the eye wondering if he was going to do it and he didn't do anything. Then I called Cassius Clay and he didn't do anything because we wanted to make sure that the name was correct that we were calling.

Good evening gentlemen. Mr. Muhammad Ali has just refused to be inducted into the United States Armed Forces. Notification of his refusal has been made to the United States Attorney, the State Director of the Selected Service System and the Local Selecting Service Board for whatever action deemed to be appropriate.

[narrates] Ali was sentenced to five years in prison. He appealed the decision. Ali's struggle had won him new fans but it cost him the heavyweight title. He was banned from boxing while the appeal went through the courts.

I would like to say to those of the press and those of the people who think that I lost so much by not taking the step. I would like to say that I did not lose a thing up until this very moment. I haven't lost one thing. I have gained a lot. Number one, number one, I have gained a peace of mind. I have gained a peace of heart.

[narrates] In 1970, the Supreme Court overturned Ali's sentence. It was an expensive victory. Ali had lost three years at the height of his career. In 1974, he defeated George Foreman in Zaire. At the age of 32, he was once again, heavyweight champion of the world.

He was the genuine product of the moment. He was the best example. He was the, the Negro kid who came up with a Black moment who was Cassius Clay that then became Muhammad Ali that took on all of the characteristics and was the embodiment of the thrust of the movement. He was courageous. He put his class issues on the line. He didn't care about money. He didn't care about the White man's success and the things that you aspire to. He brought, he brought America to its, to its most wonderful and its most naked moment. I will not play your game. I will not kill in your behalf. You are immoral, unjust and I stand here to, to testament. Do with me what you will. And he was terribly, terribly powerful and, and delicious. And he, he made it, he made it.

Wait five minutes and then...well, what's your response to that? Let's start there.

Was it, the...a few minutes in, he was speaking, was that a recent clip that she was talking about?

No.

There wasn't, there weren't any recent clips in this at all?

No, no.

OK.

Who was the person who was talking about him who said he called him every night or a couple times a day?

Yeah.

That was Elijah Muhammad's son.

It's Herbert, I think.

Herbert Muhammad.

Yeah.

Were there any impressions as you, as you remember back on? Yeah.

The lovely woman who spoke. What was her name?

Betty Shabazz

I thought it was Sonia Sanchez.

Sonia Sanchez.

Yeah?

It's so powerful and it shows how, you know, he didn't seem to be manipulated by the press at, at that point. He was really in control of himself and it, it's just a beautiful coming together of a human being.

What lines or images stand out the most for you? Yeah.

Just a cold lack of respect at the, the Illinois Boxing Commission. This man insisting that he's gonna call him whatever he wants to call him. He called him Cassius Clay three times. That speaks to the kind of undignified manner in which I think lots of Black folks have felt that they've had to put up with for years. That I can't even give myself a name and you can't respect that.

I feel the pressure of time. I'm gonna shift it. Go ahead.

I was thinking that you, I mean in a way it's, it's so good to, to talk about that today because we talk about the lack of role models for, for young people today and you can, you know, that whole idea of, you know, what is a role model and, and kind of examine people that you admire and, and why you admire people for what reasons. Because I think kids especially, they're, they believe so much of what the media tells them because they haven't been taught otherwise. And they buy into notions of, you know, beauty and all this other stuff and, but this idea, you know, admiring somebody not because of, because of something deeper than that, their principles and their values.

Is that a role model you would hold up to kids?

Yeah, I would.

Was Ali a role model you would hold up to kids?

I think, yes. I'm 23. I was born in '66 so a lot of this story and this history about him, I didn't know. So, I think coming up, just knowing about him being the boxer always known as being the greatest and sort of mouthing off and having his rhymes, that was fine but I think this brings much more to him about what he stood up for. And so, I think he's a very viable role model for children now who probably don't know that he set up for things like that and his career was put on hold for three years and they just know him as Muhammad Ali the boxer.

Does anybody have any concerns about showing this to a group of kids?

I don't actually have a concern. I'm just curious in a way that you jumped from '70 to '74. And if I remember correctly during that time period, he struggled with his comeback with the loss of Frazier and different things like that. And I wonder if you include the struggles in there because sometimes kids don't understand the struggle that it takes and that you have, you have times when you don't achieve immediately your goal but you continue to work at it. And I think that's important for kids to understand that also, that when he came back from retirement it wasn't that he was immediately the champion. He had to struggle somewhat but he sort of worked his way through those struggles and he was able to overcome the obstacles. So, I mean, I'm sure there's more to it but do you go into that in later...?

I'm the wrong person to ask in terms of, I mean, you need to get the producers back up here in terms of the full context. I guess just, just before we shift to the next piece is just, you know, what kinds of questions, where would you go with this if you show them? Because they're no hands going that I wouldn't show them then people are saying they'd show it.

I just think the one concern I have is that I think if it was shown alone that it would tend to reinforce the conception of how many young people think history moves exclusively namely, you know, great people with very forceful personalities. But I think in the context of the rest of the series which does focus on ordinary people being able to make history after organizing together, I think the message of this particular segment would be very different and would help provide a certain balance to show that both, you know, groups and individuals can have an impact.

Yeah?

The, the one thing too is that I think it'd be important to tell them what, what kind of a position he's in today because I mean, you know, that the whole idea that perhaps his illness is related to his career and to the, to the avenues that are open to him. I mean I think it was interesting that they said they didn't wanna show him today but I heard somebody in front of me who felt that they should have because they said that that was kind of the truth about what had happened to him as a boxer. That that kind of, that was important to show that kind of what had happened to him as a result of, you know, not being in the ring and fighting and, you know, coming back at a time when it was detrimental to him. But I, I think that that's kind of an issue 'cause, you know, what do we hear about him today?

I was just on a panel with some of the others that was on The Today Show. It was very interesting watching him joust back and forth about how they really kind of took society on and they, I mean, the bantering back and forth was very...yeah.

But this clip including Eyes on the Prize is about Muhammad Ali, the African American man who stood up to the system and said, I can make it anyway and I don't need your money and I don't need your glamour, it's not about Muhammad Ali the boxer. That's not what it's about, you know, so, what happened to him as a result of how hard he worked in the ring and the fact that he took it the extra mile and it hurt him in the end physically is not what this film is about. He was supposed...this is to inspire people to know what you can do with the force of your character, not about your physical body.

I like that, yeah.

Just...yeah.

Yeah. But I, but I think I just had some students reading and reviewing the biography of Paul Robeson and was struck by how the last years of his life was so just brutal and hi,his relative obscurity and yet when I grew up as a kid, my dad held him up to me as one of the great, greatest of Americans. And I think one of the things that people need to remember when they're in struggle is first of all, it's, it's just not for a segment of time. And when you commit yourself to the prize, it's the whole thing. And the other thing is that you, you, you may well fall. And I think the thing is that one of the things in terms of the movement, I think, that was a problem in the late sixties was that people opened themselves up to radical disillusionment because they had illusions. And I think one of the basic illusions is that this society is easy to change or that having done it once, you don't have to do it again or having done it for five years, you may not have to do it for ten. And I think Muhammad Ali teaches us that there are costs, there are terrific costs. So, it's sort of like, you know, with no cross, no crown. And then that's why I would say you need to, for young, I just say for young people, you need to have some sense. You will get hurt. It will cost you.

Let me just get-

I, I think that cost comes out without you having to show the physical individual. I tend to go along with this young lady here. I think there are two separate issues here. And, and I also feel too in education, I think we are guilty of this all the time of withholding information. And I feel if you're gonna get a point across if you're creating heroes, and I think in the terms and this is what we, I think we need, is the creation of additional heroes, you do not show the final plight of this particular man. I think explain it, yes. Show the physical man himself, I would not. I feel it would not serve a positive purpose. But by all means, I think this is one part of the education, you explain to the students the, the going of the extra mile, the causes of it for him. But to show the physical man himself in that plight, I think you would negate all the positive things that you're hoping to create.

I agree.

Yeah.

The producer earlier stated it very clearly and eloquently why they didn't do it and I, I support the, the decision. It's just not that confusing to me.

I agree that-

I like the apology scene. Today, many of us are forced to apologize for strength of character for the way we say things. And in that scene, he was apologizing, yes, and everybody thought he was just gonna apologize and stop but he merely apologized for not dealing with it at a higher level. And I think that's one thing we can use as a role play, a model for many of our young youths.

Real quick. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I was really annoyed at, at the use of Ali at the very beginning. I thought he looked foolish, I thought he looked silly. I thought he was emphasizing pretty boy, beautiful, I'm terrific not because I'm a good boxer, not because I'm Muhammad Ali but because I'm pretty, and I didn't like that. And I noticed the change. I really appreciate seeing the whole piece together, when he became Muhammad Ali, that he became principled as well and he began to talk about principles. And he was still flashy and he was still out there but he was, he was talking about wanting...sticking to something and wanting something and it was for more than being pretty. And I liked seeing it all together.

[unintelligible] going in the air.

I think the wonderful part about the, the young man at the beginning was that I have had so many students who walk through my door who was that young man, who had that sense of themselves, who really was in love with himself in a wonderful, wonderful kind of way. What we saw was the evolution of a man, all right.

Thank you.

That's right.

And that's what I would want my students to see. It was the evolution of a young boy, 22 years old, and he was pretty.

He was all the things he said he was. And suddenly, here was this articulate, principled, eloquent fighter.

Yeah, I appreciated it-

And it was, it's a wonderful, wonderful movement.

I appreciated seeing that sequence and I, and I like the way I changed and the way he changed and the way that...and the model that that all shows for kids is, is fabulous. I mean, I mean to say it was...

And then in terms of themes or questions of where you go with this material, I, I would keep coming back to that. No matter what you're passionate about whether you think it's beautiful or not or what you think is foolish or not or whether it doesn't fit what you wanted them to fit and you can't put him or package him or whatever. The theme or the idea of individual and society, of, of the again, the microcosm, of somebody who went from this to that, of changes in individuals, of him not giving in. Whether you like him or don't like him, whether you think it's right to show boxing or not show boxing, whether that, you know, revitalizes issues of violence with the kids or whatever, the, the point is that that may be the theme or maybe one of the themes that as we develop ways of using this in the classroom, that context may be one that makes a lot of sense to kids in terms of how an individual can change and the pressure on him. Look at the pressure on this man. And Belafonte at the end sort of coins...I mean he kind of capsulizes it at the end that here was a man that didn't fit. Nobody could make him fit. I mean that exchange in the beginning with him and the reporter, it's like you can see that reporter trying to get him to be where he wants him to be and Ali keeps looking at him and Ali won't fit there. And, you know, it's like...and it may have some signal about the movement as well, of how people wanted the movement to be in a certain place, which I think leads to this next clip which is a clip on affirmative action. And again, I think this is where the series of Eyes and the II [sic] begins to move into an area that we need much more help in terms of how do you present this kind of material to kids? Because it isn't Bull O'Connor [sic] and King. It's affirmative action, it's desegregation in schools. It's, it's the issue of excellence, right, and affirmative action. I mean, however you make those diagrams for kids with excellence on the one hand and affirmative action on the other addressing old needs and whatever, that gets more difficult. So, let me kind of show this and then, you know, we'll start. Yeah, please.

Please?

I think the problem is that not, the, the children might-

You said the problem, right?

-well, I think there, there's a problem not with the clip but with parents of these children don't know really what affirmative action means and what it really is. I work for the Department of Labor and I worked in the equal opportunity...as an equal opportunity specialist going into companies, making sure they're following affirmative action. And what I read about these regulations is not what my parents taught me or not what I learned in school, what I'm learning in college about affirmative action. That's not what it is. It's not what people told me it was. It's...I mean it's, it's equal opportunity for employment based on anything from age to gender. I mean, everything. I mean, you can be female, Black, you know, old, young, I mean, whatever. That's what affirmative action is, just equal employment opportunity, I mean, or equal entrance opportunity. And I think the problem is that children are gonna have this, this information but it's not gonna be backed up by what parents know. I don't know how to overcome that but that's, I just think they're not going to get reaffirmed.

I think you also picked up on one of the, I mean, sort of the irony, one of the ironic comments that was in there which is kind of what we've been doing all day, are bites of information. [laughs] And, you know, that what the nation picked up in a sound bite which needed a lot more delineation, distinctions and discussion. But I think that also, what you see with kids in the classroom with this even though this may be, quote, "a more adult agenda" or adult issue is that it touches developmentally with kids on the issue of fairness. I mean, that's what it brings into focus, is what's fair or what's unfair? Let me just, yeah.

I don't...well, a couple of things. One, is I don't think it's just an adjult, adult agenda because if you're dealing at least with high school students who are possibly thinking about going to college, this is a real consideration. So, I think it can...one of the producers worried about it being too dry. I think it, it, maybe for some people will, but I think in other people it will hit home, it can be lively. Just a following up of what this woman said, I think it's not only [clears throat] what the, the specific guidelines say. It's not only understanding that. It's understanding how it's in reality played out because I think there's, there's at least three things. It's what the guidelines say, it's what people in society think it is and it's what people who are supposed to follow the guidelines actually do. And because they're all these different things, there's a mass of confusion about what is affirmative action. Because in reality, it's not just this one clear policy that, that some people can say, Oh, yeah. It's very clear. There's no problem. And other people say, Oh, it's really horrible. It's disgusting. It's a lot of different things and that contributes to the confusion.

Yeah, please. In the bleachers.

I know I come in, came in late but you know what I worry most about with that clip is not the students. I'm sorry...I worry most about that clip not the students but the teachers. Those are the people teaching our kids. What do we do about that? I mean, I work with those, the teachers that, those White teachers that aren't getting promotions or supposedly they would say, because of affirmative action. We have to do a lot of staff development with teachers who are gonna be using this in order to get them beyond their own personal issues about having been unjustly treated before you can even think about how you would do this with kids. This is our...that's our society, that clip, you know. And the teachers who are teaching, what's the median age of teachers, what's the race of teachers, what's the gender of teachers? It's White males at the secondary level. So, that I think is, you know, all I kept thinking about all the people I know who would see this and go, That happened to me, you know, identify with Bakke.

Yeah, [inaudible] question? Or over here.

One, I really like the way it ended because it added the part, not just fairness of getting in and things but she showed that there was a real need. And I think sometimes we think affirmative action ends in the acceptance process and it really goes beyond. And I really...it was a point I hadn't really thought about. Regardless of whether I supported affirmative action, I hadn't thought about there's a need for this...I, I thought ended on a really positive note too.

[inaudible] on, on a social level, it's clear that, that the, that the will of, it's probably the will of the Supreme Court would be to help encourage a correction of the, of the, the, of the social wrongs. But on a legal basis it's...I don't think the Supreme Court wanted to commit itself to what maybe the predominant idea in the society was reverse discrimination. I don't know if they, they had to commit themselves to that.

And I think also the reality is the level of what Linda's talking about, is just their school and our businesses and even that level where, you know, we all, there are lots of decisions that are made which is to hire a person. And what is on the ground [unintelligible] on the basis of which we hire them. The strikes that are going on in the state, I mean the things that are happening in education now in this state in terms of layoffs. I mean, it brings, it's a big issue. It brings it home. What do you do with affirmative action given the, the numbers of cutbacks that are being made in the state right now? What is it, five thousand teachers or whatever in the state. I mean it's...so, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna bring even more focus to the issue and the reality of...What I like about Eyes on the Prize and the Museum of African History which are the two organizations, especially the museum where I've been associated with, is they make a conscious effort all the time to go at that issue. It's con, it's all the time. It's just a conscious effort. We don't want an audience of all White or all Black. We don't want an audience of whatever level you're talking about. I mean I know that's stretching it but it's, it's, it's an organization like that that keeps making decisions like that, that they're modeling for, I think, for schools and for other people. Yeah, let me just right here and then over. Yeah.

Well, what, what you just said is one of the points about affirmative action that we never hear about which is that when the University of California, Davis admitted the sixteen students by affirmative action, Davis was enriched. It's not just that those sixteen students individually got a chance they deserved, which they did but that the whole community and the whole society was enriched. So, it's not just individual rights. It is in fact the, the true nature of pluralism that it is always better than a monocultural context.

Which I think going back to Henry Hampton's comment this morning of this is a real look and a test at pluralism in the society and whether it's going to work, you know. Yeah.

I just, it's, no...it's the same thing. When, when Black folks said Black is beautiful, I mean a lot of the, a lot of dealing with racism is, is forcing a redefinition not just of language but of the entire rules of the game to say that there are only so many slots and, you know, that's all we're admitting. That's a zero-sum game. Someone has already decided that. Well, maybe we need more doctors, maybe we need more teachers. I mean, what affirmative action is about is not just equality of opportunity. It's about redefining what opportunity is and who it's for. And, right, the community is enriched by being different. The community is, is made less, it's depleted by being the same so that by definition, and that's at the beginning, the thing about excellence on one side of the fr-that's, that's, that's, that's studying the game the wrong way. Excellence is inclusion. Excellence is diversity. And anything that defines itself as excellent without everybody or without color, that's crazy. That's, that's, that's nothing. And, and I think, I hope that, you know, that's, that's part of what's dealt with.

Yeah. Go ahead.

I, I have to say that I had a criticism of it. The first thing ever in Eyes on the Prize that I haven't liked because affirmative action is me now in college as a person of color and it's so personal. Affirmative action people on this campus cry constantly because of affirmative action and how we're told that we are not qualified because we definitely got in here on affirmative action. And affirmative action and how it's used against us is, is a constant reminder that we are less than. And I feel that this part of Eyes on the Prize didn't answer any of the questions of what are qualifications? And the fact that the affirmative action admittees are not under-qualified because we do graduate. If we are...I can...I'm not even saying I'm affirmative action student because I don't know if I am. I went with tears to the Director of the African American Center saying am I an affirmative action admittee because I don't know and somebody just asked me, OK. And I really don't think that you answered the questions. And well, OK, yes, a lot of people will be sparked now to go out and do some reading on it perhaps but how many will be, you know? You're here at Tufts University and our White students just tell us that they know what affirmative action is about and they're here at Tufts with a big library and they never go read about it.

So, what about your ignorant, you know, what about your ignorant, I won't say the word, who won't, who doesn't read newspapers anyway and takes the type of assumptions that we're inferior anyway and then sees this? I wish there had been some answers.

This is only part of it.

It's only eight minutes.

This is only part of the whole show. It's an hour. We only showed eight minutes.

Oh, OK. [inaudible]

I think I'm just gonna end on that.... I'm gonna end on that passionate note. And because I think what you're gonna to find is that if you show for example this clip to a staff in a school, you get quite a discussion. And I think going back to what Linda's statement is, is that, you know, where do you go with this and how do we train ourselves to deal with this issue, I think, is going to be very difficult. And I think it's a sampling of some of the difficult material that's coming up in the Eyes II.

I just want to call everybody's attention in your packet that more attention was given to this issue than any other in terms of background simply because the producers of Eyes on the Prize are well-aware of how difficult it is for so many of you to deal with this. But in the back of your pocket, Gerald Gill here at Tufts has put together some important background historical materials.

Thank you, folks. Push on to the next one. Thank you.

What was your question?

[inaudible]

Bill, Bill, Bill, can you look this way?

For what?

Bill.