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Preferred citation:
Interview with Frank Tomlinson, conducted by Blackside, Inc. on Malxolm X. Washington University Libraries, Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection.
SPEEDING. MARK. ONE.
Q: Okay, let's start off by, ahm, why don't you describe for me the conditions, ah, under which you started working for the police department, and you went out that, that night on an Ap'-, on what is it, April 28th?
Twenty-seventh.
Q: Twenty-seventh.
Yeah, which was a Friday
night, uh working, I think the morning
watch out of University Division which is
one of the sections of Los Angeles that we
were responsible for; and, ah, I had just
been transferred to that Division from
Police Department. I don't remember now
Q: Ahm, were you, ahm -- there had been - been, ahm, confrontations with the uh police and the Nation of Islam before that. Were you aware of any of that when you went out that night, and what under -- what kind of prior information did you have about any of that before you went out that night?
heard any conversation about, ah, the black Muslims.
Q: Ahm, when, ah, you approached the car, ah, that uhm, uh that night, were you aware that they were, ahm, members of the Nation of Islam, or black Muslims uhm when you approached them, and talk about what happened when what happened.
No, we had, ah, just
left the station, I believe. Uh, my
partner was someone that I had gone
through the Police Academy with, and at
that particular time, you had to have, ah,
a year's seniority on the job. You had to
be off probation before you could work
with a classmate. And, ah, so it was the
first time that we had been able to work
selling what appeared to be new clothes on
hangers out of the trunk of a car, which
made us suspicious.
Q: Ahm, tell me what happened once, once you stopped and inquired, just give me a, ahm, a, ahm, a, ahm, the sequence of events of that, ah, of that uh time.
When we stopped, we both
exited the police car. We were in a black
and white patrol car. And, ah,
thing; and, ah, my partner took the one
been talking to rushed to the front of the
car and jumped on my partner's back; and,
ah, I ran to try to help my partner, and,
ah, somewhere between trying to grab hold
of the person on his back, ah, and
actually being able to help him, uh I was
thrown to the ground by a group of men
that to this day I don't know where they
came from.
Q: Ahm, do - do you remember getting shot or do you remember how that happened?
Yeah, yeah, that's not
hard to remember, getting shot. Uh
group of men grabbed me and pulled me
backward and pinned me up against the car
that the clothes had been in, and while I
was there, uh it seemed as if the whole
group of men were trying to punch me at
the same time, which was probably good for
me because - ah - with so many fists
flying, I don't remember a - a lot of - of
ah hits being landed on me. But, ah,
while that was going on, I heard a
gunshot, and everybody froze; and s'-, and
cars, and I ran towards that man to try to
grab him and pull him away before he could
hurt the man who was trying to help us.
And as I approached, ah, I heard the man,
the security guard kept saying, "Stop,
stop or I'll shoot", and as the suspect
kept advancing towards him, I heard him
pulling the trigger on his gun because it
was clicking, and it was not firing; and
he did that once or twice, and so the
suspect kept advancing toward him until I
get right to his back, and then he tried
face as I looked around - it seemed close
to my face; and I saw him fire twice, and
~ the second shot hit me in the back, and so
I so was knocked over on the sidewalk. I
heard a third shot uh in rapid succession
and then they were gone.
Q: And, and, and the wound - your wound was what? What did you, how were you wounded?
Ah, the - the shot
actually went through the left side of my
back into my left arm and exploded my - my
left elbow, so that after I fell, I don't
remember if I lost consciousness or not;
uh but then I tried to get back up, and
every time I would start to stand up, it
felt as if someone was tearing my arm off
Q: OK. That's good.
OK. ROLL 'EM. MARK. TWO.
Uh just prior to the shooting, and it seems as if it was in really close proximity...
SPEED. AND THERE'S A MARK. SECOND STICKS.
Q: Okay talk to me about, ah, reading Esquire Mag and the impression that you'd gotten from that article, the position for some black Muslims?
Muslims or become aware of, of them, Uh
the article made an impression on me
because it talked about, ah, how violent
the movement was. It talked about their
uh hatred towards white people; and I
believe it - it made mention in there even
that they were trying to formulate a
belief that if a white person touched you,
the only way you could be purged from the
sin of that would be to kill the person
that touched you; and that they were, ah,
years at that time without encountering
any sort of problem like that.
Q: Okay, okay.
SPEED. MARK. THREE.
Q: When - when the, ahm, incident started to take place that night, when, ah, the, the fight -- was it at any point during that fight that you realized you were, for the first time, confront - in - in contact with the Nation of Islam?
I don't remember when, but, ya, I became aware that this was what it was all about. And by the - by the way, in regard to that article, I don't even remember, ahhh, what locality they were referring to. I don't connect it to a Los Angeles problem as much as it seemed as if it was just generally saying, "Here's a new movement in the country, and
this is what they're all about." So I
don't remember even relating it to, to the
streets in Los Angeles. But, ah, ah, now
that I think about it, it was probably
when uh the dress, because I think there
was something in the article about the
fact that they, they dressed alike. Ah, I
think they wore black suits, white shirts
and maroon ties. Ah, and the fact that
there was a lot of chanting going on, ah,
Q: Ahm, do you - are you - how did the oth - the, ah - the police come to your aid, ah, that night. How did--- anyone, how did anyone come, know to come to your aid and did, in fact, people come, someone come to your aid, the police come to your aid? How did this ... ?
Well because of the information in the article, ah, I was really concerned after I got shot because
it was then that I saw my partner again,
and he was -- actually, would have been in
the intersection of fifty-seventh and
Broadway, and my view was partially
blocked by cars and partially blocked by a
large crowd of people because it was
Friday night, and I think there was a bar
on the corner; so that a lot of people
came out into the street; but I could see
my partner on the ground, and, ah, and the
was told to me afterwards, was that uh
when the watches changed and, and my
partner and I had gone out on the street,
one of the men who had gotten off duty was
on his way home uh about a half block
south of where we were, and as he drove by
the intersection, he looked down, he saw
the red lights, saw the big crowd in the
street, and decided that he should come
back to take a look and, ah, and when he
did, it was, it was that officer, ahm, who
was the fi'-, the first one to, ah, call
were going to do; and this was not the case. It was very chaotic, and so as soon as an officer rolled in, he was dragged from his car, and uh, or if he got out of his car, he was mobbed, and there was no time to respond at that point.
Q: Okay, What, ahm, what uhm, what happened at this - at - did - you, you - you appeared at the trial, correct?
Oh yes, at the preliminary and at the trial.
Q: And, ah, what, what took place at the trial in terms of, ah, ah - the - there were fourteen Muslims brought up for charges?
Yes.
Q: OK. And, ahm, how was --- what did the defense use as a - as a defense for them? Do you remember?
Well we were excluded from overhearing one another's testimony, so I was only in the courtroom when I was testifying; uh and I don't know what tactics were used for, ahh, the defense in general or for specifically other officers. With me it was primarily a matter of probable cause for us being there in the first place; and secondly, identification.
Q: The, ahm -- I - I was reading through the defense, the defense, ah, papers, and they were saying that the - the guys at the car that they were cleaners. They were -- Did that ever come out in the? That was never -- Did you ever hear that that was ... was that ever discussed on the street there that, or anyone say anything like to that - to that nature? Never got to that?
This is the first time I ever heard that story.
Q: About that they were cleaners?
Yes. That night there
was no conversation about the clothes in
the car or what the men were doing there.
Q: What was after, after well ... do you have a sense of what the, the ahm, the relationship or the situation within the community, itself, was like after this incident? Ahm, ahm, I know you didn't go
right back -- you didn't go back on the streets.
No, I can only speak to
what it was like prior to the incident,
and, and at that time ---
remember being put into the arnbulance with
several police officers
SPEED. WE'RE ON FOUR. FOUR.
Q: Okay, you were talking about the - remembering, if you can remember being in the police ambulance and how we were talk'-,...
Oh right, ah, and being placed into the ambulance...
Q: Start - start it - start it all over again --- "I can't remember being..."
Okay, how'd I get into that?
Q: We were talking about, ah...
Oh because we, we were not anticipating...
Q: We're going to stop. Do you remember where we are?
Are you ready?
Q: Yes.
And because we were not aware of the sort of feelings ...
Q: Let's start again because you've got to give me, 'It struck me..."
Further back?
Q:Yeah, further back. Uhm, "I can remember being in an ambulance..." and, and you were talk - talking about not being aware of...
Okay, I got into the ambulance through talking about the - the perception we had of the streets not
having any tension... Now, you don't need me to go through that part anymore. Just go into the ambulance.
Q: You can give it to me. Give me - give me - give me that as an introduction, yes.
Okay. The amb - and
Q: So, you - you had never encountered this kind of confrontational, ahm, kind of personali - person or - or group in - in -
in any of the work that you had done before?
No, no, nothing with that kind of rage or hatred.
Q: Now in the uhm -- during the trial, there was one - there was one Muslim who was uh charged with attempted uhm murder or for firing a fire weapon. Ahm, and there's an interesting story about that because in fact they did dress alike, correctly - correct?
Yes.
Q: And it was, were you asked to identify - identify them at the trial?
Well I couldn't identify the person that shot me. I was able to identify one of the men who held me against the car while, during the attack; and, ah, and to this day, I don't know who the person was that shot me; but it was
the security guard that was able to identify one of those men. I don't know which one it was.
Q: Ahm, what, ahm, had the, had the uhm, had there been -- were there very many uh, uh black police officers on the force during that time; and were they patrolling in the, in the neighborhood as well?
Mmmm, that's funny. Uhm, it's funny to reflect back because black and white didn't seem to be the issue that it is today; and, ah, I can't remember the numbers of black officers. The officer that went out of his way on his way home to come down and save us was a black officer, and he was attacked.
Q: And the security guard?
The security guard was black. Ah, I, I was sort of isolated from where the fight moved to because it moved towards the temple, and uhm, and so I was
on the sidewalk maybe a half block away; and there was a black woman who comforted me while I laid on the sidewalk, but I never knew who she was.
Q: Okay. Uhm, that's about it. Anything that we've particularly missed in this story?
Oh you can make it as big as a story as you want to. I could talk all evening about this.
Q: Let's cut for a second.
Q: Okay. Talk to me about that moment and being in your - what you were feeling at the time?
Well I had been a - ah, a police officer long enough to have been in all sorts of confrontations, and, ah, I had never been injured or, or never even
placed in a position where someone else
had control over me the way uh the Black
Muslims had control over me that night;
and, ah, I thought that I was going to
die. There was an incident in my mind
that seemed as if it had just happened
prior to that where uh an officer had been
in an fight and had gotten shot through
the arm and had bled to death before the
Q: Did - were you - did you feel, ahm, ah, unsure of this relationship with this community that you'd been working in for a long time, ahm, and uh as a police officer and any, ah, confusion about what, you know, was expected and what your role was, and what you expected your role to be?
I think I was afraid of,
of that change.
Q:Okay, that's it. That's good.
SPEEDING. MARK. SIX.
I guess my strongest personal feeling about what happened, ah,
would be to hope that people might
understand that from the police side uh
and especially from me, personally, there
was, there was no sort of a plan, a
conspiracy, a plot to get out on the
street and go after a certain people. Uh
Q: In, in the, in the after, uh have you, you know, after time and, and, and your knowing more, do you see the Black Muslims any different or do you se'-, or any of that since then?
Since then I haven't - I
haven't kept aware of what was happening
with the Black Muslims.
Ya, that's okay.
MARK. SEVEN.
Q: OK. Talk to me about the, the kind of energy that surrounds the case when Malcolm shows up in court.
Yes. In regards to
Malcolm X, uh because I was unfamiliar
with the movement, I didn't really know
who he was.
was the way my time of testimony was for
both the preliminary hearing and the
trial, but it especially escalated in that
sense when he was present there.
Q: Okay, ahm, now ahm, did you - did you have a chance to then read more about Malcolm and, and, ah, who he was after - after that?
Yes, later, ah, and I was out of police work later. I was retired because of my gunshot wounds. I, I can remember keeping track of the news accounts of Malcolm X and the movement.
Uh I did a little bit of reading about
their origins beginning as a prison gang
with Cecil Poole and, and, ah; and so I
was a little bit more aware of who they
were, ah, after the fact. But I still
felt, even after the fact, when I would
read of police confrontations where
policemen would be injured or the
situation would be out of control that the
Q: Okay. Uhm were you aware when Malcolm, were, when he was assassinated?
Yes I remember reading that, but today I don't remember hardly anything about it.
Q: Okay, let's...
Didn't he change somewhere in there? Didn't he move from the violent posture to one that was ...
Q: He left the Nation of Islam, yes.
Okay, and so he was probably assassinated for that, then, huh?
Q: Mmm.
That was the - that's the one thing I remember is that he was probably assassinated because he changed.
Q: Yeah, OK. Good. Thank you.