OK then, go.

For most athletes defeat and victory are elemental parts of the design of any career. You have not experienced a loss, I believe, in some eight years. Does that alter, in any way, your concept of competitiveness or competition?

I think it probably enhances it, and I use the fact that I have been winning in order to enhance it even more.

Mm-hmm. Your event, the four hundred meter hurdle run, challenged you to both, to generate both speed and endurance. Does this mean that in that event, you are overcoming, more than other runners', the concept of time, concept of defeating pain?

Well, I, I get there first. That's, that's [laughs] the main point of, of running the race. And I work hard in order to, to win the race, so it's hard to tell how much pain another guy feels. But the race itself is very strenuous, and you have to overcome a certain amount of pain in order to be able to compete at the world class level.

At the world class level, in this event, of course, the, y-, you probably combine, or would you say that you combine, speed and endurance, perhaps more than in any other athletic event?

I think so. In terms of using it in the four hundred hurdles, it's, it's definitely an, an advantage to have both the speed and the power, and I've been able to mesh the two together, and put together a good race much more effectively than the other competitors.

If a champion in your field can be described as someone who refuses to quit when the body, and perhaps the spirit, oblige you to do so, is th-, how, how does that determination become regenerated over and over again? How do you drive yourself?

Well, I, I love track and field, number one. And that's probably the main motivation. It's, it's difficult to get out there on some days, and other days it's easier to get out there, but the challenge of wanting to run and compete internationally is what really keeps me out there.

Could you tell us anything about the coaching in the early part of your career? Was it—did it coincide with your own inclinations as an athlete, or did you have to be guided and moved in certain directions?

Actually, most of my coaching was, was not really correlated toward four hundred hurdles, or hurdles in general. In fact, I never really had a coach that, that was really a specialist—

—in hurdles. And throughout my career, since high school, I always tend to really push myself and wanna be competitive, and, and, and [watch beeps] want to be able to get out there and train every day. And that also occurred at, at Morehouse College, where I went to, to school. We didn't have a big program, but the guys that were there had the initiative to train on the, on their own.

And we developed programs for each other, and we worked out hard together.

You're the son of educators. Did they have an influence on your going to Morehouse, which, of course, is a, a center of learning, and—

Yeah, my, my dad wanted me to go to Morehouse—

—and I remember doing a book report in the fourth grade on Martin Luther King, so I was aware of, of Morehouse College at a young age.

And I didn't wanna go to a large school, and the only other school I applied for was Ohio State, which was a massive school compared to Morehouse.

Can you tell us a little bit about your experience as a, as a competitive athlete at Morehouse? As you said, they did not have a big program. Did you have to compete more as an individual than as a member of a, of a team there?

A lot of it was individual. We went through a few transitions where we were switching coaches and during the interim we had to get out there on our own. And that's what we had to do. And track and field was, was—sports in general was low budget at, at Morehouse. And the emphasis was placed on academics at that school, and to compete in sports you really had to wanna be a sportsman and wanna get out there and take the challenge and do it yourself.

Would you say, in that case, in the, in the instance of going to a place like Morehouse, you were left largely to design your own future as an athlete?

That's right. That's right. And also I, I enjoyed running track because it was an escape from academics for me, and I really didn't plan on being an Olympian, or really didn't have the idea in my mind un-, until nineteen seventy—

—six. And actually what happened was that I had an opportunity to, to make the Olympic trials, the qualifying standard, and I trained for it, and I did.

In 197-—we interviewed Evelyn Ashford this afternoon, and she said that she felt the 1976 Olympics, for her, were somewhat more exciting, somewhat more important, in her personal view, than the '84 Olympics.

Mm-hmm.

I wonder if you'd comment on that.

Well, the '76 games for me were much more of a challenge, because I was just beginning to be world class, and everything was new, and the excitement was really there, versus the 1984 games when it's been eight years, we missed the boycott, boycotted Olympics in 1980, and it turned out to be a lot more business-oriented than it did the excitement of, of, that some of the younger athletes may have experienced. So it was a different type of games, but the intensity must be there in order to go in and win.

People know so much about Edwin Moses in, in this event—the four hundred meter hurdles. Who are the other people in the, in the world who you would consider top athletes in this particular event?

Well, they are definitely there. Most people feel that—and it's probably from lack of knowledge of the other competitors—most people feel that there isn't any competition out there for me. But the event itself is very competitive, and it takes a lot of, a lot of energy to go out there and continually win. And the other guys are there—Danny Harris won the silver medal in 1984, in the games; Andre Phillips has run under forty-eight seconds, one of the other two men that are still competitive that has done that; Tranel Hawkins, who's from my home-town, is still competing; and, and David Patrick; and also Harald Schmid, from west Germany, who was the last guy that defeated me in '77. So those are the nucleus of the competitors in the event.

If you were to stop competing tomorrow, the, there is a clear possibility that what you have achieved in this event might never be equalled, matched. What, what is left for you to achieve in your athletic life?

Well, I would still wanna get out there and win. I'd like to be able to make it to another Olympic games. I still would like to continue to run on a yearly basis, and travel, and participate.

Let's go back a little bit in time, Edwin Moses, to Edwin as a youngster. Were there, or was there, a champion in your life—athletic or non-athletic—whom you particularly admired when you were growing up?

Well, there were, there were quite a few. Course, everybody remembers Muhammad Ali. And in terms of track and field, in my event there was John Akii Bua, who was my predecessor in, four years before the Olympic games that I participated in. I saw him run and win, but I had no idea that I would be the next world record holder in that event. So I just looked up at him, in terms of my event and my career in track and field.

You've been quite outspoken on a number of instances about the world of international track. And without leading, or guiding, or putting words into your mouth, is there something that you feel must be changed at this time in the world of internathonal [sic], international athletics generally, but particularly in the world o-, of track? Is there, are there changes that are going to have to be made if, if track is to continue to be, be an event that maintains a certain integrity; that people will come out and see, and feel that they are getting their money's worth, or their excitement's worth?

Well, the sport is doing pretty good right now, and a, a lot has changed in the last four years of the rules, amateur rules have changed a lot, and allowed us to be able to earn money, compete l-, over a longer span of time. Now you have people who are able to think in terms of two and three Olympic games, versus two and three years. And what probably is gonna have to change is that the athletes are gonna need more protection in the future. Most of the athletes operate with very little protection, and very, not very good sound advice. So that's probably gonna need to change.

I wonder if you could expand on that. Protection from what?

Well, amateur athletes are, are competing in track and field, and people are beginning to make money, but a lot of the athletes have not taken a professional point of view towards it, and that, we don't have the protection of the people in the international federation and some of the meet organizers, and that's gonna need to be changed.

I've heard you—I've read, I guess we should say—that there is a, a harmful effect being placed on many amateur athletes—professional athletes, I suppose, too—from the use of drugs: steroids, and other kind of, other kinds of drugs. What can be done about that? I mean, is, is it something the athletes have to police themselves? Or is it gonna have to be a, an imposition of tighter regulations from the governing bodies of sport?

Well, the r-, the regulations are there, and the athletes are gonna have to demand that it, it is policed more heavily. I think that the athletes are responsible for that themselves. If they want to have a sport that's relatively drug free, then it's gonna have to be the athletes that take the initiative.

Ho-, how much of that do you think is being done now? I know you've spoken out about—you've been very public on, in your view. Are there other athletes who are doing the same? Do you think enough is being done, or what, what more will have to be done, let us say, before the next Olympics?

Well, the Olympic committee has their drug testing program, and then there are meets that are tested in track and field on a continual basis. So the rules and regulations are there, but the enforcement is, is gonna have to be—

—very stringent in order to really change it, and make it a lot better.

I think we're out. I just wonder—

—if we could come and just pick up at that—

K, go.

Speed.

Go.

Good.

Edwin Moses, we're talking about the problem that has been publicized, perhaps too much—the use of drugs by athletes, particularly internationally competitive athletes. In your view, is this a problem that is—is there a cause for alarm right now, do you think?

I think the cause for alarm is the fact that the younger athletes are beginning to, to use more drugs in the case of track and field. And it's basically anabolic steroids, and growth hormone, and things of that nature. And a lot of the kids are using 'em coming out of high school, because they wanna get bigger, and they wanna become better. And the temptation is always there, and it, it seems as though it always will be there. And we've tried drug education programs, we tried by bringing the problem out. But I think the problem within itself is only gonna be solved when the athletes themselves stand up and say, we don't want our sport to be this way.

In your life as a champion, is there an event, or perhaps even a moment, that's particularly memorable for you?

Well, winning the Olympic games in '76 definitely was. And in 1983 the world championships was a big moment for me, because I had been injured in '82 and had come back. And also the, the Olympic games in '84; and also each of the world records I've, have managed to run. But probably more important is just the lifestyle that I live because of my participation in track and field, and that's probably as enjoyable and as important as all the records and all the big races.

Tell us a little bit about that. I'm sure it, one of the things it involves, a great deal of travel—

Yeah—

—a-, and—

—we, we get to travel quite a bit, my wife and I, all over the world. And I've been to just about the entire globe because of track and field, and most people don't get that opportunity to travel the way that we do. And it's continuous. And I could travel all year long if I really desire to, but I really try to stay at home certain times of the year so I can do my training.

In 1976, the event—I wonder if you would perhaps—we're gonna show that, we're gonna show footage of that. I wonder if you could describe in any way—particularly for people who are not as familiar with that event as perhaps some of the others—something about how it progresses. We've talked about the fact that you've got to maintain speed, which I think most people can understand. But you have to maintain speed against rather demanding physical odds against yourself, or—is there any way you can share with people, is there that, for people to understand that perhaps a little bit better?

I, I could send everybody out to run a quarter, and then they'll [laughs] understand; run four hundred meters. But the event is very tough. It's, consists of ten hurdles, and they're thirty-six inches high, and they're spread out thirty-five meters around the track. And the race is tough, because when you get tired, the hurdles are still there and it seems as though they get higher.

We have asked all of the people who participated in this program a, a question, and we get a variety of answers. And of course, we're gonna ask you, how you would complete this sentence that begins, to be a champion. And I, I would appreciate if you would say those, those words, and then finish it in your own way. To be a— [missing frames] —champion.

Well, to be a champion, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of work; probably more work than courage. But it takes the courage to be able to do the work. And it takes a person who's not gonna quit, and a person who's gonna keep going when things are very bad, and, and hopefully things'll get better.

I would have never become an Olympic champion and world record holder had I quit at any point in time, because the training was very, very difficult, and I had all the excuses in the world to not go to training, and, and not run hard almost every day. And the only reason that I really became a champion was because I stayed in the sport longer than a lot of other guys that I ran with, and I worked harder, and I was fortunate enough to be blessed with the talent, and the physical body, and the spiritual essence t-, in order to continue to do that.

Bill isn't in here.

William has left the room. Well, where—I think we can—

—cut it.

Cut.

OK, f-—