^Very well... well uh, I would say very well, though I was three years old....

My father in my eyes at the time that I remember him most ... I was about three and we traveled together across the country -- he's a preacher you know and uh, he would be going to Boston to preach. He 0083 would dress me up and put me back to bed, so that I could wake up on time and he could still carry me whether I was sleep or not ...

He looked like me ... he ... I AA 0109 can't say he seemed like me but he looks like

My father looked like me. I look like him and uh, I don't remember him in later life up to to three years old I remember him and uh, he was a tall six foot five handsome black man. He had very sharp features, very keen features and uh, he spoke very well. His vocabulary was superb. And uh, I got acquainted with my father immediately after I was born because 0205 everywhere he went he took me with him to take the weight off my mother. So he would dress me up and have a suitca-, he carried me in a suitcase with the face cut out and we traveled to every mass. I did like to go ... I loved the trains ... I loved the sound of the horn. I loved the people and they'd AA 0245 speak in a grand and shake hands and what not. I was a baby but to me it was nice.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know. I was three when he ... my daddy was taking me around.

That's who I'm talking about.

My father married her so when he take me with him to church he ... he would AA 0314take her to church.

[MISC] She's talking about when ... Mom when .. I don't know if you mean ... you gotta be more specific when later because my mother has to ... she doesn't remember and you could mean later when she's a teenager or later when she went to see Malcolm you know and then that's we you know ... it's years later, so there's a point when they saw\each other ... saw her down South when she's little you know and then years later when she goes to get Malcolm so you have to ...

Yes, very well. I'm concerned and uh she was wearing a pink dress with flowers.

Yeah ... she was wearing a pink dress with blue flowers in it and I thought it was kind a odd to go together. And ... AA 0367 but she was nice looking. She spoke fast, out of tune. But uh, I liked her. She had raised the children by herself up to then when they were separated and I was concerned about her ability to carry on with the children and uh, I found that she spoke well, uh ... hasty sometime out of whack with reality. She fixed dinner for us, at least the girls (unintel) and they helped her -- 0426 the place helped her. But she was very interested in me -- me. And I wondered why. So I questioned her. Why are you so interested in me? We called her aunt. We didn't call her Mother or anything. We called her Aunt Louise. Why are you so interested in me? We were at the table and she said mmmmh? I said me. What is it about me that interest you so? Daddy? She said mmmhm. And you could wipe off the tear. She said you just look just like him. I said I AA 0489 can’t I'm younger. I'm so much younger. Well what is it about me that make him look

Batting eyes ... while I'm talking to her?

Well I ... I have a different observance ...

Batting her eyes ... I wanted to know why she would bat them so fast and look AA 0588 directly at ... at me. That's why I asked the question 'cause she ... she wouldn't look directly at me.

[0604 She nice looking. Not beautiful but nice looking. And uh, she had a pointed face uh, like my grandmother and uh, she fixed her hair where ... where she parted it in the middle and stood out too much from the side of her head and I wondered if she she'd 0642 let me comb it, would I braid it back and let her ears show. I ... I lived a whole lifetime eatin' that down because she was ... I wanted to know what it was that caused her to appear to me as I guess now I would say a foreigner. Then I would say a strange person. ]]0690

Because of her battin' her eyes and looking at me like she thought I should have AA 0704 on green instead of red or red instead of brown and then she would start ... she'd sit ... she'd be quiet and she'd eat for a while, then she'd say, why Ella Lee, she called me Ella Lee -- Ella Lee, when did you (unintel) to you insay I stop teaching school? I would answer her pronto and she'd say I don't think so. I don't think it was that soon. So I ... I wouldn't question her. And uh, again she said, why Ella Lee -- she'd put something else. So she made herself strange to me by her native AA 0770 approach in asking questions.

No.

It's a size 16, I think or a 10 ...

Yes, I can very well 'cause I ... he was the only one that I didn't see at the funeral ...

This was the first time I had seen Malcolm, uh, after my father's death. And

[1051Malcolm came to Boston that time by train. I met him at the South Station -- AA 1060 Back Bay Station I met him.1065] And he was up there swinging along on the cars -- on the subway cars waiting for me -- he had come in the back ... come into Eggles(?) station earlier than he was supposed to. So he was wait ... he was told to wait right here. I had a man worked on the train that would look out for him coming in -- take care of him. So Mr. Roundtree hollered to me, "Here he is Mrs. Collins." Not Mrs. Collins -- I was Miss LaRue and uh, I stood and looked at him 1125 -- that's for the ... this was the second time I had seen him since my father's death. And uh ... he come running and his suitcase came open. So he stopped ...like the station belonged to him. He stopped and start picking up his thing and throw them in there are putting them back into place. So I got up on this platform to ... give him a hand 'cause he had to hurry -- the train was AA 1168 blowing -- the whistle was blowing ready to leave. And Mr. Roundtree was waving his

Uh, all I ever thought of was that he looked like my grandmother at the time he ... he looked just like her ... see my grandmother was white -- she looked it anyway and she had blue eyes -- so if she opened her eyes and look at you, they're blue -- solid blue. And that's the way he looked up. If he looked up at you, you'd think it was him looking at you. Um, on our way home he was telling me what he planned to do while he live in Boston. First of all he wanted to go AA 1292 WhenWill fishing. When I go with him, we go ... we're

‘Cause he determin-, he's determined that he was coming. Daddy had told me before he died that he wanted me to AA 1415 raise him.

Because [1430 Malcolm made it understood when he came that he wanted to live with me. AA 1437 The children were being scattered all over the country you know everywhere -- two here - - one there and but my father had also stated that he wanted him to be raised by me and that's whe-, but everything was going all right then they said to him -- him and Wesley -- he wanted Wesley and him to be raised by me.1471]] And I'd have to go to school to be up 1479with him and whatnot and I ... he was making all kinds of plan for them.

with Malcolm yes -- easy. Where's that picture Ronnie?

He had on rompers?

Oh, yeah you down to the ... yeah I know ... I know what you mean ... [Misc] That time when he had the accident ...

Yes, baseball, tennis, anything else uh ...

Well he was so ...

[1590 Malcolm was firm at whatever he had to say about anything. They called him the one that would make up his mind. Wherever Malcolm say go, that's what we go.] Hilda was too big —— she had to stay home and take care of the smallest children if they didn't get somebody to take care of them -- to live in 1622 the house with them.1624] And Ronnie was too small to stay with Hilda. She was a baby almost -- a year or something. Uh, Reginald was too wild they say. Reginald was too wild to go home with Ella because Ella couldn't handle him and he goes off and stay two and three days at a time and nobody knows where he is. Philbert was a cry baby too. He ... AA 1673 he warewas more like Wesley but he ... was not what I could put my head into so I ... I

He looked like my grandmother. Act like her. [He was ...|1908 he was sure of himself. I like people who're sureq... who have some inner spirit about what they're gone do. And he was so sure he was coming to Boston he'd packin' his things already. He going around AA 1931 and he's gettin' his baseball and got his ... his tools and things together. Now he

He as about ...

Yeah, Malcolm was always introducing me to boys’ games. It's one of the things he liked to teach me that we knew 2546 about -- games. So what I know about games I learned from him. Is that enough?

I don't know what armwrestling is.

That's OK ...

Yes I remember very well... he was that same day I was sitting in the car and he was telling me that his hands were hurting so he got busy and he start twisting his hands and showing off and hittin’ trees and boxing -- that's where it leads to -- I AA 2614 don’t know if that's handwrestling or not.

I remembered that after I got to . talking now ....

Yeah

Uh, it was wonderful. Malcolm would teach me all the games that he had picked up on and I would soon catch on -- log cabin up in New Hampshire -- was that New Hampshire -- it seemed like a new name. I better shut up I'm tired ...

Yeah, (unintel) New Hampshire but it was Upstate, New York .,. we would play ... (unintel)We'd get more fun out of playing barefoot on the ground and fishing -- Malcolm caught a big fish one time -- can I tell you about that? Well he caught this big fish. It seemed that somebody had caught the fish before and got away and came over a AA2727 water fall down into the river and Malcolm chased that fish and my cousins they chased

Oh, yes Malcolm is ... he said he's never caught a fish that big -- he used to go fishing all the time but he never caught 2774 anything that big. That fish must have weighed 35 pounds. So uh, we were all excited about him.

Very well, yes he loved it.

On our way to church and going to the choir and he's singing Christian songs AA 2827 and he talks about a young man who sings in the choir -- sings bass in the choir and uh, uh, he'll -- he'll laugh -- gotta the biggest kick out of him saying somethin' wrong and then he'd praise him for being the best base he ever heard. Things of that nature he could bounce from one thing to the other. But he was always looking for the good.

[[2877 Life is to me I ... I have to first tell you about me and then you could understand Malcolm better. I'm the type of person that would walk a mile to save a life. I'm the type that'1l go around the world to avoid unhappiness in life. And I ... see if you can get from that what Malcolm ... how I saw Malcolm. Malcolm would ... if he could AA2934 ... if he could make you fly knowing that you can't fly but he can teach you and guide you

Everything . . .

His whole life was based on the good that he could get out of something -- put into something -- build around something. AA 3037 We had an old -, we had an old calf steer --

Is it ... may I ask you a question ...

Is that a dog there?

Let's start on Northampton Street and go up to uh ... let's see Kneeland

I'll do that. I'm gone try it anyway.

Uh,[3201 we had the most beautiful community. There were flowers growing from everything. Businesses were fun and growing. If I could paint it for you, you would get the shock of your life -- really you'd get the shock. on the corner of Camden(?) Street there was a little store uh, a man took care 3242 of it. He'd come out and say hi to everybody and go back. People going to buy would stop and talk to people and they'd go back. We ... we would speak to everybody. My mother was a caretaker of my store, out store. I was pleased to speak to people and I believe AA 3280 they were pleased to speak with me. I was

He got involved in everything atthat's (unintel)true-- everything he uh, got ... got inhim andto rejoin the church of course and told them that his father was a preacher in ... in uh, 3539 in ... in Lansing, Michigan and he preached also in Albin, Michigan and he told them all about daddy -- they knew exactly what he did.

Singing preaching ...

Oh, I see, well he uh, got involved in sing ... Malcolm got involved rather in AA 3587 the singing and the Preaching and the act of preaching ... they coulda have had a (unintel)act come on on and it's first thing Somebody morning that somebody would open the service you know, you ... he'd be the first one up there and he'd try to stand like a preacher with his hand in pockedpocket you know and 3615lean back and he even brought Wilfred here so he could see him up there as a preacher you and he was ... Wilfred that's ... that's all right with me he ... looks like a preacher -- daddy would be proud ... and uh ...

Yeah, oh yeah ...

... preacher can play ball. He went to St. Marks and played ball. He ... I AA3665 don't know how many different schools he went to to play ball but he was busy. They'd come for him, they even had him a captain's cap. Captain's jacket, students had made for him

What did I say?

Oh he got involved.

All right [3706 if Malcolm if Malcolm ... AA3707 if there was any activities in a church, at school or any type of program going on, Malcolm was involved in all the way -- he

I wouldn't let him get just any job. I wanted him to grow past the job idea to a higher degree of understanding the world. So the first job I got for him was AA 3826 St. Marks -- the young students would hold meetings and he was one of the ...

Yes. I got him the job at Townsend Drug Store -- just going by one day, I wassaid Mel Greene and he said to me your brother go back? I says no why? He said I was thinking about if he wane I can put him on here on Saturdays. I said what about Sundays? You don't want him working on a Sunday, he goin’ be the preacher here before you know it, he'll get Thomason out of there and he goin’ be a preacher. I said, OK with me, put him 3906 on Sundays then. You see any difference out there put him on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Fridays and all the days. He said, I'll do just that. So that following Sunday he preached yep ... and after that he'd preach about three times a week. We had service from Monday to MondayWednesday night and uh AA 3943 he'd be there, then they ... I wanted girl

The Roseland Ballroom he worked there after he preached -- this is afterwards. Uh, he ... the Roseland Ballroom was a night club and um, he asked me if it was a harm for him to sing in church and preacher pullspulpit it out of church what they call it ... I told him no, he had god with him and they couldn't go down and preach about devils and get away with it. Scare the 4027 devil out -- some actually, I was going to dinner and he said to me Ella, tell the truth would you let me go in, teach at St. Marks and then go and preach on ... from The Bible -- St. Marks -- I said you can take ten Bibles it's OK to me as long as you're talking about god, tell the truth what you AA 4066 know and don't tell me what I knew now, you tell me what you know.

No, no, no. Nobody invol-, nobody involved in it. That was (unintel) of hisjust Ella's brother. I ... I... I ... I rave about those days but those were the days when I ... I was missing out on it so I liked it. No, no, no. Different one came and then commended me on putting in in there and sing ...

That would be hard to do to describe that moment. It would describe ... uh, he had had his hair done a couple of weeks before that and I had raved and carried on enough about it enough to make him cut it off or to let it grow or tell me to got to AA 4132 you know where and what not and uh,[4168 he came Sunday morning, he said, I still got it, he

Oh, boy now that ... how did you know about the zoot suit?

oh yeah [4304 Malcolm had three zoot suits. He worked like the devil and got hisself those three suits. I thought he had one ... he stor-, hiding one. The next Sunday he hide the other one around. But he knew it was different. He knew something 4332 that I didn't know. Really. I didn't think he was the type ... the attention that he did but[he knew he could put that zoot suit on with those big legs and that big collar on his shirt and it's (unintel) his fancy tie and draw attention and that's what he wanted. He wanted to draw them to the attention, look AA 4376 at me I look like a fool but I (unintel)Ella's his brother. You know and so many people asked

Oh.

Mmmhmm. Yeah I see.

What you say?

No.

No.

He was.

Yes, I was a ca.., that was built for him. And the other boys who was suppose to be, but all them guards were for him.

An, uh, an the cage.

The cage, I used it, I used the trial and the cage, er, the sedation of the..

...trial.

I used that as my gimmick.

‘Oh yeah. It's mine. Uh, I, uh...

Not to get involve what the man is doing. Keep his mind going on what he got his mind on.

And he'll carry on once he's back free again.

You can, you, er, you can whoop a...

Lemme see if I can see it.

Uh-huh.

I know.

Uh, there's two cages in the, on the stand. Uh, one for the man and one for AA 5061 the women. The two white girls were never shown in the cages, and they was brought to the papers uh, interest. And they blast about it in the pa.., paper. That the two negroes was shown daily from sun to sun as they been train to work. But two white girls were their as witnesses, and they were the leaders of the gang. Uh, I wrote a note to the judge...

[5127 Well, [ I was what you call a mad negro, I was one. And I knew what I saw was real. I know it wasn't anything funny about it. I knew that when they'd laughed all together, they, they were laughin at.., loo, look what we did. We doin it to the negro.5155] And how I felt, well one, whe..., this court officer looked over at me one ti.., he was laughing about something. An his hand on his stomach, an he saw me looking, an, he, he AA 5173 moved his hand gradually, he was whipped. I

5211[ A big cage with two to the, two to the, divide , division, and bars and wire. It were no place for a human being.]5236 Got any ideas. I had all kinds a ideas. Hmm.

Oh yes. Everything was coverin’. You could hardly move in that place. An think I got up and left, to long bout the AA 5263end, I didn't stay to the. . , they finish that day. Um...

Like it is right, I was beginning AA 5281 to say. Like it is right now, the.., all the mede, media cover right now. They get at the, they showin these murderers an all these different things, they even brought Jesus back on trial, an the, an, an, an what's that man name, uh, the one that was killed. They bringing his case back.

But, ta, what we had to realize is, they just play this game in the movies as a rule. But we, they played to us every day of our life. An we not, intellectual enough to realize, it's been played over and over and over er, again. Kennedy's death been played over and over again.

Oh yeah.

Definitely two white women. But..

[5377 Malcolm was definitely involved with two white women. And this is what made the case so powerful. So outrageous. Teach AA 5393 ’em a lesson. Next time they get er, the uh, two negroes get involved with white woman,

I told 'em the day, I wasn't in court the day they handed down the sentence. I told em the day before what they were gone do. I knew what was gone.., I told the 5444 lawyers what, wha, wha, what it was gone be. An I didn't go that morning. And then they, the judges handed down the decision before 10:00 uh, (unintell). And they read off by the court officers.

Uh, someone had the nerve to ask out me..., someone had the nerve to ask |out me. Someone had the nerve to ask me...

Someone had the nerve to ask me, what did I think about the decision.

I said can't you read? You read AA 5503 the paper yesterday afternoon, ya showed it TK 12 to me in the papers. He said how did you know that. |out

All we uh, we uh, had made arrangements that he wasn't to go to Norfolk..

Mmmhmm.

Uh, I know. Um, things were pretty AA 5559 trying through then, that area. Some of the old folks, had done give up on Malcolm see, ya know how people are. And uh, Malcolm had resolved hisself uh, to go with my help. He kept sayin to me, with you help uh, Ellen, I'm goin with your help. I'll go, and I won't start no fight, no mess. But I do it with your help Ella. OK, go on I said, we 5600 have bang down war on em.

I wasn't there, I told you he, he, uh when they handed down the decision, an I got there, they were over a place, like a pen. Like a fence. An they ha.., had a roof AA 5638 on it. An it was uh, pitch dark area. An

Tears. He was tears, but he wasn't gone cry. I'm not goin' to cry. And I watch him an he wasn't seein. You're the boss. Am 5844 I crying, tears just pourin down his face. An he asked me what, what was my plan. I said ya mind ain't, not strong enough for me to tell you my plans yet. And wa.., wait till I get em togetha, we put em togetha an make em work.

Very.

He was very angry. He was angry at the two that.. He repeats saying it to me that he's (unintell) a yearthought I didn't hear, set by the court. Her pointed out diff, different people in the court, that he knew were out to get him. Uh, I told them last year, I told them, they was, he's back. They thought he was gone for good, I said, but he's back. I put it in the Globe.

Not cryin. Water is runnin out of his eyes, and dripping down his lap, just like a baby. He told me how they try to make him eat, try to feed him. Try to tell him all kinds a tales, why if he don't eat he would catch diseases and what not. He got a AA 5982 bad cold when he first got there, and uh, I, I gave him, I took him some casserole, Uh, he

He knew it. He knew what he didn't do, and what he had done.;[out I wouldn't thought about him gettin no fair sentence. In the beginnin, an I didn't know what it was about. After I found out what it was about, I know he didn't get no fair sentence. Uh, that's out a the question all togetha.

All right. If thexe such thing as x a fair sentence for a black man in prison, don't you know, ova half our peofile would not be in prison.

He didn't...

That's why I stopped there. [6087 I 6088 guess, there was a change in Malcolm after he joined the Nation. He had something to do, something to look forward to, more, more than before. An when I found him lookin lost, I'm misunderstanding. Er, I could bring up the Nation of Islam and he would start telling me different things takin place around the world, and he felt that it was an asset to the black.] 6151

He reads more, much more, and asked me... Constantly askin' me for ne.., AA 6170 different books. I recommend that he could read. Uh, Malcolm was a gifted reader fro-, from the beginning. But, as he grew older he would ask for different books, different titles. And uh...

No I don't. He wouldn't ask me for that anyway. That applies to the Muslim. He would ask them. They were the one's that faced the east. He don't ask me that now.

He, he liked what the brothers were doin. He explained to me every time he sits | SND N/G with round, an he always said what they could AA 6276 be doing.

And he really and truly believed AA 6286 what they could be doing. An they made me believe it.

Now or when.

I didn't see him that often at the mosque. Uh, after we had our differences of opinion in the mosque, I didn't go often. Once or twice if he was going to be there something special, I would go and stay by the channel an I stayed all the time. And uh, I'm not gone tell a lie about this because it's deirer to me than anything else I have in front of God. An Malcolm's changing -- endeavors mean more to me knownow than I guess it would to a lot of people, means a lot. AA 6399 Uh, I'm sure they do. Um, (unintell), wellIf the Muslims were on the right track, the right program

He just said it ’cause ... that I seemed skeptical. well, we had two directions before us. Theirs and his. And I didn't feel capable of applying myself a hundred percent to his and theirs. It has to be divided in some angles. And there has to be division knowingly, not questionably but AA 6529 knowingly.

No if I thought that I'd tell him to leave. I did not feel that they were holding him back but I didn't feel they believed in him in anyway.

Most dif-, definitely other reasons. They had him on the block for murder. Malcolm was on their block quite a while. If you had followed the teachings and along with the happenings in the street, you'd find that they had planned it a long time. Now you ask me where I came from and AA 6615 made that statement. I was here. I've been here all the time.

Well, when I mention the Nation of Islam, I can only mean one group -- one faith -- one group.

There were many reasons why Malcolm was silenced -? remember that. The Nation of Islam was just one of them. They did their part and the others did their part.

They're on the scene now -— doing AA 6705 their part right now. They're doing their part bringing back Kennedy's death, right

OK. OK.

I believed in it.

Oh [6762 I gave Malcolm his fair to Mecca to the Hage and my brother went with him. I gave another young man his fare there. He was from Mecca. He was here to see me about a month ago from Mecca. And he asked me the same question, why did I give Malcolm his fare to Mecca? I believed in it. AA 6820 Still do. I prayed in Mecca. I believe in

Tie him down. Give him a walking stick and he could guide more ... more carefully. Wake him up. Talk to him. Seek him out and bring him out of the field and put him in a role and let him hold his own row -- hisrole -- as man. It stays there for you, if 6886 you could see it.

No.

No. He hadn't changed. He changed his mind some. A little bit he changed his mind. He got a better direction from AA 6928 somewhere. He didn't get him from me. He got it from over there somewhere and he came to me and told me. I got his knowledge he said ... Don't worry about me no more.

He wanted to verify the change. I knew I knew ... he knew I could see it. When he came in the door, he started talking, I know I'm gone tell you everything. I got the rest of the afternoon to ... to confess. He 6985 had a lot of things on his mind.

Things that he thought that he AA 6997 should have followed -- maybe could follow

Yes .

Yes, I saw a change in him. He told ... he went over the whole program with me. |outNow here he wanted me to go ... he ... he'd give me the money to go. No, not time AA 7045 for me to go ..

[7543 He called me after the bombing and told me I almost didn't ... I'm almost not here, something like that. He said it ... he said ... I said, what happened? He said they tried to get me tonight -- bomb me. Tonight I said you just (unintel) what time ... what time you mean? He said oh later on ... early on but they was intending to get me ’cause I 7585 told several people that I was gone stay in and rest and they all sanctioned my staying home and resting ’cause I'm tired, I'm getting a cold.]7604 While he was onsthe phone he told me to hold on for a moment. He said they tried again. What do you mean tried again? He said either somebody losing bombs AA 7625 around here or finding -- I said tell me ’cause I'm dumb now, I said you get me all

mmmhm.

That clarifIes ...

Yes. Immediately. Uh, More than one occasion He talked about it. And he just seemed quite serious about it.

Mmmhm . . . when he got back from um Mecca, or was it Mecca? No, it was another one. Egypt I guess it was. [[7867 He'd talked openly about who he thought might be interested in having out of the way. And it had nothing to do with the ... the Americans. He uh, had spoken a couple of times about being Americans but on a different level and ... and uh once it came but uh, he didn't elaborate further on that until after he told me about the bombing that night. He was 7948 kinda upset that night as if to say it was so and so but he didn't say it. I was hoping that he would tell me but I think he was hoping that I didn't know.] 7981

I got a call ... I got a telephone call after he hung up and were deciding whether or not we were going to New York or AA 8011 wait until the next day. Mr. Scott and ... and the other boy came by and we talked and

They didn't want to tell me about him...

Oh, I'm gettin’ tired but don't worry about that.

Go ahead.

Oh, yeah.

When ...

Uh, [8201 after dinner I put all the dishes and everything away, the phone rang again. This is much later than the first time and um, the phone was in ... in the diningroom. So I just passed into the diningroom and got the phone but dragged it with me and sat down and began to say hello. I thought it was Malcolm. I said are you all right and I could heard someone crying. What you 8260 crying about as if I didn't know. And they told me. I told (unintel) Mr. Scott about it and I got to ... I just got ready and we all started off to New York. Just that simple.] 8308

Betty.

[8326Ella. I know you heard about Malcolm. No what about him? They killed him.] It's that simple.]8354 I didn't wane talk anymore. He's already dead she said. She said that they had rolled him out of there and did something. She kept on (unintel) talking about it but I ... I didn't pay no attention.

Yes, he does.

With my eyes open?

Uh,[8466 um M-M-Malcolm came back worried that, and I asked him ‘cause he'd ... first he wouldn't say. I asked him what brought about the worry? What did he see in Egypt and all over the countries he travelled him that upset him so? He said oh, I'll tell you one. You watch and you see, I'm gone sit down AA 8502 and tell you everything. I said tell me some of it now so I'll be (unintel) get

Oh, yes. I tell you about it. He uh ... he feel ... he felt that the AA 8723 threat was to get rid of black people -- period. Just by the thousands -- just

Yes.

That uh on the way over there, there was an incident where uh, the woman was pretending she didn't know who he was or why he wore the X and uh, when she found out, she came right out and said it you know. Black people got arou-, surrounded by us, looking out for them, dying for them, going to war for them. So he told them. More white AA 8817 folks dying for us, looking out for us.

Do I have a sense?

Oh, definitely. If you listen to every word I said to him, oh yes or why he was away, long before the ... long before the Muslims go interested in 8856 the man wiping them out, I was interested. I interested long before Malcolm was 10 years old.

Why yes, I had a sense ... AA 8874 when Malcolm told me that while he was

Frankly, I ... I can admit it, I'm a little bit psychic -- little bit. Just enough to know what is going to take place. And I told him before he left here not to go. After I counted his money out to him and gave the 8940 envelope, put it in and told him go to ... you've been to Mecca but with the understanding it might mean your death. He said they're not that bad over there. I said, they're worse than that. These are (unintel)facts. When he came back, he said to me I know what you mean. I said did you learn anything? He said, yes of course. And Malcolm told me they were AA 8987 gone kill me-, Elijah Muhammad. They're gone bring enough scandal against him to

[9084 Betty called me. I told you just talking about ...[Betty called, says they got him, they got Malcolm. AA 9101 Betty was in positions to get things

[90989159 Betty called ...[no I was waitin' for him to let me know when he ... he spoke and everything you got ... as all over. And the phone rang and I said that's Malcolm. And I went to get AA 9180 the phone. She said they got him. Got, I started to say got who but she was crying and the crying let me know that ... Malcolm. so she came on out with it and I hung up.]] 9216

Yes. I expected I I ... I ... I'm a trouble look ... looker. I am always looking for trouble. When um ... when he told me how they had followed him there in New York and into this restaurant and how ... went in to get something to eat and they looked around and there they was closeby and he told me a lot of little things about it. And I told him that he'd get ... he was getting like me. I said, you're getting 9261 me like you suspi-, suspicious of everything. Go on a about your business and do what you have to do and get it over with. I was joking ’cause I was cookin’ and the TV was going and I was talkin' ...

He didn't tell me. He had told me so many times who was ...

[9355 Don't ask me what I do after I hear about Malcolm's assassination. Try some ... somebody else that don't mean as much to me. There's nothing on earth will make me accept Malcolm's assassination -- nothing. As far as I'm concerned it may sound a bit weird but AA 9388 he's alive -- very much and one day I'll get even. That's the way I go to bed

Naturally. I |out didn't cry a tear after he was shot. I went to New York that night. Identified his body ...

When I went to Chicago I more or less wentxto warn Muhammad that to be aware of his family

My memory comes back and forth through um ...

Well, it meant nothing to me ’cause I had to shut my mind off. It was impossible for me to be cooking dinner. I finished that dinner you know ... uh, and uh, Malcolm called and back and forth.[[0079 I know he called until the meetin’ was over usually if something is up he'd give me notice so ... he gives me notice so that I ... like I have to (unintel) so when the phone rang I naturally know it's him again and it was Betty and when I heard I crying I knew ... she never did tell me he was dead. 0110 She never told me he got shot or anything but I knew by the crying and everything. She was trying to tell me something and what it was. Betty don't cry for nothing.]]0128 And uh ... I then got (unintel)Ronnie and we got ready and Mr. Scott came by and we ... I asked him ... go and asked him one time did he wane go drive with us to New York. He said what for? You know like anybody would ask I AB 0166 guess, what for. I said they got Malcolm. He said you said they shot at

Nothing.[[0227 I didn't know Monday from Sunday. Didn't mean a thing. When I found his tie didn't look quite right, I took it off and put a better one one and went on about my business. I combed his hair even. I wasn't the least bit worried. I had seen my father die. I had seen members of my family ... my AB 0259 grandmother -- all of them are dead. And I had helped to get ’em dressed.]]0268

I uh ... did you ask me how many times I've gone over that in my ... in my mind. And so many times I've come up ...

No, I am not going to ...

Well ...

Kill who?

When we read one day where a big tall black woman with no legs came in and cut his head off and cooked it ... she got him ...

Talking about it not going to reveal anything ...

^... (unintel) handling itself, right on from Bush on down all the way through -- Kennedys all of them and uh, if you just open your eyes and listen, 'cause I said I can hear things and see things. Maybe I better not tell you ...

^ Now to Malcolm I'd tell him just exactly what's on my mind and he accept it and if his mind told him, I guess his mind would tell him, not to deal with it, 'cause it's bigger than we think so don't deal with AB 0509 it, he would never say another word ...

Let me tell ... let me simply it ... the government of America

|out... it's showing its weight -- showing its self -- they're showing this to themselves. They had movies out of reach and 0545 they brought them back to focus. They don't know why they brought them back to focus but they did. They have uh ... now for me to explain this in my words, it would sound a bit off but um, Malcolm's death, Kennedy's death -- those families -- those close deaths did a lot...|out

Yes ... Malcolm's death, Kennedy's death and all those deaths, think about them all that went through there and no one has been proving anything yet. Everybody's talking, everybody's finding guilt but nobody's really proved anything. Nobody been to jail for it -- didn't amount to anything. It depends ... I .... I could go so far as to say handed down by God -- handed down by Jesus but it wouldn't sound right. You 0646 wouldn’t believe that in the first place.

..^Trying to make me say it. Aren't you? It's the mind ... the minds of people. one AB 0708 mind can't control it all but there's a mind among you -- the very determined plan -- you

He was who?

Yes. Yes ...

I had a sense and he swears that I gave it to him.

No, there's no criminal stuff in it so far ...

He didn't write it ...

Did he write the autobiography?

You're surmising this ...

Malcolm stayed as far away from crime when he came out of jail as he could from ...

Oh, before he goes to Jail?

... I saw him start to dance. I saw him try to dance with me on many occasions. I heard him singing the blues and different things, singing the blues ... saw him participate ..

Yes, I saw him ...

I saw Malcolm start to dance. I saw him getting interested in singing with me or singing with whomever was at the house. I never saw him once lean toward crime. That 0930 was so bitterly against him, he'd get mad if I even brought it up. Accidently I said, well Malcolm you know you're the biggest gangster this side of ... what's that guy's name, that gangster and he'd say don't say that to me, don't ... don't put me down like that please. Don't do it no more, not in AB 0956 front of people.

Malcolm was not a dancer. He'd pop his fingers and bounce around the kitchen floor and tell me he was sorry, he'd wax it AB0982 tomorrow and go on out about his business. I'll come home and he's already upstairs in the den and read till got sleepy and went to sleep and ask me to wake him up. Uh, Malcolm had really given up dancing. You might say gave it up —- singing blues and popping his fingers, he had given it up before he went to jail. And I know he didn't go out on the 1031 street just to dance.

Well he was going to church now.

Oh yeah ... oh yeah ...

Pop his fingers and things, and AB 1062 sing to thisSt. Louis woman, got hima diamond ring and how (unintel) .^that sound Ella. sad ... he had to ... how's this and did ... didn't it sound like, what's |out that guy's name is that sings the blues ...

... yeah and uh, they'd say ... who ...

Count Basie, Count Basie ... we all |out thought of uh ... Roberta King ... she don't sing no blues.

Yes I ... went a couple of time ...

Are you ready?

His hands and doing the blue.>mike pop sing those St. Louis blues and then asked me how it looked -- how it sound ...

Like me on a ... on a (unintel)mike pop

All right we're talking about Malcolm ...

1180[[ Coming in the house and hearing the music playing and start popping his fingers AB 1187 and walking across the dining floor and he's singing to his St. Louisblues and uh, uh, just like Count Basie could do it. Ella Fitzgerald did the same with the blues pop too. He might come in at night and not even say a word about it.]]1215

Comes in the diningroom door ...

That's punishment . . .

All right fair enough ...

Now?

I can see him now, coming in the door, coming in the diningroom door, listening to the music for a second and then start popping his fingers and headed toward to kiss kitchen (?) you. Uh, he's pooping his fingers to the tune and singing h is St. Louis blues. He'd go on (unintel) into the kitchen and uh, looking AB 1302 for something to eat. (Unintel) ... the blues ...

I haven't got the same rhythm to it.

I ... I guess that's it

Free at last.

Yes.

Yes, I am all right.

They ... they're gone put that in the picture too?

mmmhm.

OK, go ahead.

[[1356 Malcolm comes home in time for dinner and he comes through the diningroom door, popping his fingers and twisting his arms to singing the "St. Louis Blues" and head for the kitchen. He is hungry and then

Oh, yes all the time. He'd get up in the morning and want -- can I have six eggs this morning? What for? Because ... I asked him you're gone sell ‘em? No, I'm gone eat them right there and he'd get them. He And that's another thing would uh, (unintel) and that's another thing he'd pop his fingers, he would get his plate all set up on a tray, he'd go in the livingroom and eat. He pops his fingers down to cross the living room, back into the livingroom and sits down and 1455 eats the six eggs and finish the toast and everything else (unintel) and then he ready to go to sleep. I know I can't put the (unintel) finger into, ’cause I tell you frankly, I hate to see him popping fingers. I was always on him about it. And I used to tell him don't do that because Mr. Eisenhower AB 1498 wouldn't do that, come popping his fingers across the diningroom. Malcolm was going to

You ... you know I'm gettin' tired.