THIS WILL BE UH MURIEL FEELING’S INTERVIEW ON CAMERA ROLL ONE EIGHTY-THREE, SOUND ROLL NINETY.

READY WHEN YOU ARE.

Q: OK. Ready?

Q: Oh, you rolling? OK.

MARKER - ONE.

Q: So when are you first aware of Malcolm, where are you and what do you think.

rights activity that was going on was kind of sit-in kind of demonstrations and much of it did not seem to be ah as serious as I thought it should have been. It seems as though there are a lot of excuses for interracial uhm, uh activities, um and but I think it was the seriousness of what I heard in Malcolm's voice I I was not exactly um inclined to feel motivated to be involved in something about the passivity of it seemed, you know, I clearly know now, looking back upon the civil DA 3071 rights movement, that it was not a passive movement altogether. Uh, I was not drawn to that type of passive activity in me, something in the words of self assertion, and taking charge uhm of our own destiny, seemed to appeal to me very much. And it was through the the I guess the speakers that used to come to the campuses and um I think one of the people that was a close friend of DA 3106 mine, this Ethiopian student, was one of the people that really was very much taken up with the idea messages of the Nation of Islam, and particularly Malcolm, and so that was when my interest got sparked, and something just said, "Yes, that's it!" I was

you know, I really needed to to be a feel a part of what was going on in a real way, and I could identify with some of the things he was saying, which were not about violence, they were about ah self assertion, and protecting family and self, and taking uh an, an active role um in ah shaping up our own destiny and putting things back into proper perspectives.

Q: And do you see at this point Malcolm separately from the Nation?

Q: How did you see the Nation of Islam at this point?

Q: I'm sorry, can you start again and mention?

Q: I'm sorry they won't know who they are. Start again.

anything that was quite so magnetizing. And then also I was impressed with the testimonies of those persons who came on campus and the like who spoke about their transformation, um from people who had been hoodlums and actually murderers and the like to people who have been transformed, their lives are turned around. Also kind of like the idea, the way the male role of taking assertive attitude in terms of his family and DA 3339 uh the protection. 3342[And [I know lot of women who were drawn to the movement because of some of the philosophy more than the religion. And I think I was more taken with the philosophies that they had of uh self determination more than the you know the religious aspect.]]364 Um...

Q: Why do you not join the group ok.

SPEEDING. MARKER. UM - TWO.

Q: So why don't you join the Nation of Islam?

Q: Yes, Um, so when you come to New York do you have sense though that the Nation is different in New York than what you had mentioned after the bazaars?

performing and many of the Muslims were wearing African dress and things of that sort and um there was a more of a black nationalistic um environment then da the religious aspect of it was there but it wasn't as ah seemingly as overpowering as it was later on where the mode of dress and all those things seemed to be so different. Um, DA 3494 with the you know the clean haired Paris hair does dudes in the ties and the um and the uh more western type dress was such a part of it um, yeah I and then I began to ah become more conscious of um the the actual being in the city where they were actually the restaurants and the this businesses and other like that were ah that we frequented.

Q: (unintel).

Q: Uh, yeah.

of a cultural and nationalism seemed to be DA 3561 evident in New York, um there was the I remember Muslim bazaar where Max Roache and Abby Lincoln uhm were performing aah for a benefit and ah Muslims wearing African dress and things of that nature. ]]3583 And um I also had a chance to go into some of the establishments that were run by Muslims, restaurants and the like, um and it felt really good to go in a place and see a place where nutritious food was being served, DA 3605 clean, excellent service and the like, so uh those are some of the impressions that I have.

Q: Talk about the restaurant a little bit, what was it, some did people talk about it as as an oasis almost?

Q: Yeah.

prepared very well and um just spaciousness DA 3643 and light I just seem to remember these are just some impressions that I have from something that um they're talking about something thirty years ago almost almost. Almost.

Q: Um, let's go to the first OOAU meeting, um, talk about going to that, coming to New York to participate and then what it's like when Malcolm comes in on it.

Q: And some of the qualities you see.

Q: Sorry, if you could please start over and just mention OAA meeting.

Q: You were awed.

IS THERE A PROBLEM?

Q: Yeah. Why don't we cut?

SPEEDING. MARK. THREE.

Q: So a sense of what happens when Malcolm comes in.

I saw this person in this setting which was entirely different than anything else and I guess Peter and others can tell you about their impressions you know, uh also that were very different 3909[ and [it was at this point that I I began to see um just ah the magnitude of the vision of this man and the his ability to bring people together uh of various backgrounds it gave him that kind of DA 3932 support and to um was was a powerful tool]]3939 and ah I suppose this is why he's not with us anymore because I think there was no one else around that really could draw that range of people, um and later even north and south. Now we saw ah ah the same phenomenon.

Q: Well how does he react... OK, right. My next question is going to be how does he um first how, yes.

UH THIS WILL BE CAMERA ROLL ONE EIGHTY-FOUR ON SOUND ROLL ONE, OH, SOUND ROLL NINETY.

BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO.

THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X ON SOUND ROLL NINETY-ONE, CAMERA ROLL ONE EIGHTY-FOUR IS UP.CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH UH MURIEL FEELING.

SPEEDING. MARK. FOUR.

Q: Ok, so how was what is it about Malcolm that that he is able to attract this kind of diverse circle of people?

Q: Sorry, start again

Q: Wha'-, some people say that Malcolm wasn't analytical, how would you respond to that?

interviews of, of those those there are some people who have said I've heard that he was DA 5165 not a critical thinker, um, or that only a attributed the his critical thinking ability to those people he was associated with at this time and when he was about to establish this new organization, but, if people would remember the ah the thinking on his feet that he did in these television interviews with with ah newscasters and the like and then the debates that he ah wa participated in with ah DA 5208 people like Jensen and many others who were scholars I think they would have to think again, because in those kinds of situations of debates ah and the like ah you have to be a critical thinker, and um it it makes me think about his ambitions as a child when he wanted to be a lawyer and was told he should DA 5236 be a janitor. I think about that those qualities are the qualities that make for a lawyer who who can do that kind of uh that kind of thinking on your feet.

Q:And what does Malcolm like in this kind of meeting, how is he reacting to all this diversity.

Q: And you didn't expect him to listen quite the way he did?

a situation before it and I'd only really just heard him more through the media than, DA 5364 than, than anything else, ah up at that point, cause I had not been in New York very long, but I'd heard alot about him and I was when I came to New York it was I I expected to to to be coming in contact with those people who were involved with um forming what was to be a human rights organization, so um that was ah another side of I saw initially DA 5400 right at the beginning. And there were among that group women and men who were inputting and that was another thing that um the media you know, um, and I guess the philosophy of the Nation of Islam um one did not encounter that kind of thing, um, publicly, publicly anyway.

Q: Let me just mention, in terms of the women's thing, you mentioned that women's voices were respected by him as much as men, could you just talk about that for a minute.

there people who had various knowledge education and um, these people were a part of DA 5466 the people that were part the group that he listened to and helped to provide some of the foundation of the um various structures of the OAAU]] some of the philosophy and a bylaws and the like. Um, [Malcolm was a person I think that was uE'§E3 who was bigger than any personal issue or anything else I think he basically saw people, black people who had abilities that everybody ’s abilities DA 5505 needed to be brought together and used and so the sex didn’t seem to matter too much at that point,]]5514 um a lot of people...

Q: If you can just say the gender.

Q: Well, give me a sense when you're in the OAAU of the sense of the double life you're working um, at the publishing company.

changed between he and I because you know he knew just wa how I felt and I could bare it no longer so I had left at that point I left and uh went to the school system because I needed to be involved with something that was I was trained to be a teacher anyway, and I went to teaching a school in Harlem, and ah

Q: What were you doing at night, how do when you come off work, what

um, the there there that was at a time when I DA 5765 really began to have be able to have some kind of impact with children as well um, so.

Q: Let me shift from that, in terms of uhm, when when Malcolm goes to Africa, why does he go? Why does Malcolm go?

Q: Let me just rephrase that. What is the goal of the OAU that Malcolm fulfills when he goes to Africa?

the case of the African American's impressionoppression in this country out of the context of just United States and the civil rights context into a human race context, by bringing the case before the UN,] and ah so that was the goal, [his goal there was to gain the support of African Nations to bring these case before the UN and ab there were some African Nations DA 5893 there that had supported that]5895 and it was tabled to have been there for that next general assembly, which somehow was aborted.

Q: Can you give me a sense of somebody who's connected with Africa even here, of the sense of excitement that you have at these newly independent African Nations.

Q: OK, of somebody who feels a connection with Africa, are you excited by these newly independent African Nations?

Africa, we had even considered the Peace DA 5943 Corps before we later realized their reputation as a junior CIA agents uh agency was um was something we didn't want to be identified with, but we had I had planned to go to Africa before I left college and then a number of African students in college and began to learn a lot and began to read alot and so 5969[[ Malcolm's involvement with usthis we really made a lot of us very proud, I mean this was a landmark in going there it was ah it was a landmark in being received all over DA 5485 those various countries and the ah the universities where they he spoke, ah I I was told that one of the campuses in I think it was in Nairobi, Kenya the students after a debate carried him across the campus]out 6005 and my my maybe the, the location I may be a little rusty about but a yeah, ok.

Q: You know about it, great, great, yeah.

ONE EIGHTY-FOUR ON SOUND ROLL NINETY-ONE.

THIS WILL BE CAMERA ONE EIGHTY-FIVE ON SOUND ROLL NINETY-ONE CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH MS. FEELINGS.

SPEEDING. MARK. FIVE.

Q: So, the story you heard about being his being carried ..

the human rights effort, before the UN, and um these are countries that I remember DA 6089 Malcolm saying something about them the countries that are considered conservative behind closed doors uh are often different and some of those that were considered well that Liberia and Senegal were two of the nations that supported this and they also supported the Pan African Pan Africanist movement um also so I don't recall all the other nations that had given support but it DA 6125 was tabled by Alex Quaisansaki was the President of that General Assembly that was supposed to have been held where that actual that motion was actually served and brought forward.

Q: In, let me ask you about Malcolm at this point, I mean do you see him growing during this last year that you've know him?

travel myself, and live in other countries t hat I began and to really understand what happens, quickly, it can happen quickly too, but he already ah ah a propensity for this, he was already a Pan Africanist in his spirit, and many people who knew him when he was in the Nation talked about how he addressed Puerto Ricans in Spanish and all the likes, so he already had a this of a larger global, a global more global perspective. I think even then um and a it DA 6212 just had an opportunity to express itself and his vision got a chance to be enacted and that year um I saw a bigger world view about political um ah positions and the like, um, I think his black nationalism became Pan Africanism ah when he began to see that our struggles were all the same, whether it was in Africa, whether it was in the Caribbean or whether its in North America, and um, I think he he he had really a basis for trying to DA 6268 bring together the differences between the various kind of political movements in the United States among the African American community and um, was even ah disposed to trying to le’-, gi’-, I think he gave more

credence to the civil rights movement too, DA 6292 but he saw that there was a need for everybody to get together and I think it would have happened at had he lived longer.

Q: And how does he seem to you after the house bombing the week before?

Q: I'm sorry, how does Malcolm seem after the house bombing?

Q: And how does after the bombing, how does Malcolm seem personally to you?

reception from the African American community DA 6485 there to a closed door the next time he went to Paris.] There are a lot forces both nationally and internationally that I think he became aware of that were out to crush what he wanted to do, and I think he began to try to accelerate his activity] and to stay home, I mean to stay home, meaning stay in the States because he'd been travelling a great deal that year,]6516 um, to try to DA 6520 consolidate some things. I think he saw urgency and ah when he brought a meeting I I last remembered attending ah public that the big public meeting was when he brought Leon Amir, and introduced him as someone who's going to help to put the structure and put that get things rolling in terms of the OAAU, he was I believe Mohammed Ali's formerly DA 6554 Mohammed Ali's press secretary, um, I really thought something was really going you know get nailed down, things were really going to get nailed down there.

Q: How did their problem keeping the OAAU going with Malcolm away so much?

about Africa and about new nationhood and some of the struggles that were common uh to our own and ah those unique and um to help to get them gain gain a greater broadening of their world view, which was one of our purposes in in doing this, so these things helped. Umhum Umhum.

WE HAVE ABOUT THREE MINUTES LEFT.

SPEEDING. MARK. SIX.

Q: What qualities about Malcolm do you most remember and most affected you?

saying it in different ways, um, his emphasis on teaching people and teaching them to be DA 6777 about teaching them not only but giving them knowledge but also attitudes and values.]]6784 About being broad minded that he really wanted to bring people to a higher level of awareness of themselves, as not a minority in this country but a part of a world population of people of color and um his integrity, I think um you know there was so many times when we heard disappointing stories about DA 6815 people we kind of saw as our heroes and loved, um, who you know had little transgressions I always thought moral, [[6828his moral principles were very much very admirable to me, uhm you never heard anything Malcolm being anything but someone who loved his wife and his children and I don't think anyone ever could put a story out about him having extra marital affairs. That was very DA 6850 important to me because it meant a consistency in a persons principles and that meant privately and publicly that meant he was you know holistically principled, ]and um that this man was a seemed to thrive on a knowledge. [He listened to people and ah

DA 6880 could a eat the fish and leave the bones, he didn't indiscriminately just take peoples ideas but he and he didn't let other people determine who were his friends and who his enemies, he said he used to say I remember "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."]]6901 It could be and in in a case where it was useful that particular aspect of that persons or that that source's philosophy was useful, he would use it and um, um, and he um talked about bringing I guess his positivities when not anti white were pro black he used to say, DA 6931 and that was important to be proactive um and a the fact that um he could respect ah people across gender lines was something I felt was the making of a great ah great leader, because we have to pool all our resources and its ah it should be no divisions on any lines, and the fact that he was seeking to bring about a movement that was going to embrace the concerns of people across um ah DA 6975 various social economic and religious lines, I thought were very important strengths and um, so these were some of the things that I I remember and I that he his ideas that he promoted of self determination, of finding

Out knowing who we are, knowing about our history, um were things that have been a part of of this the founding of institutions today, were based on those principles out of self determination.

Q: OK. We're gonna go back and we're just gonna.

WE'RE OUT.

Q: Yeah.

END OF SIDE TWO.

THIS’LL BE SOUND ROLL NINETY-TWO ON CAMERA ROLL ONE-EIGHTY-SIX, CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH MISS FEELINGS. THIS IS BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION, MALCOLM X, SHOW NUMBER EIGHT HUNDRED.

Q: If you can go back to the um rally, the assassination, um, if you can talk about going there that day, and also include Benjamin's [MURIEL INTERRUPTS]—-

remember, um Benjamin's remarks when he introduced Malcolm. He even concluded with saying that this man would die for you.] And then I re-, I was sitting on the side, and there were chairs across the facing the stage on that side, and there were booths on the side of the Audubon, /I was sitting in the booth with some other people, and um I remember hearing up from toward the front some kind of altercation; some guy saying, "Man, get get your hand outta my pocket, man. Get outta my pocket." And um, then Malcolm DA 7635 trying to, you know, quell this, and he said, "Uh, cool it, brothers. Brothers..." And then a hail of bullets. That's all I remember. Um, and I, ironically, his last words were, "Brother?”] And uh, these were, you know, later realized, uh, just attempt to, what I later learned was just an attempt to um distract the audience from where the, DA 7672 from the rear, where the assassins were coming. Uh, um, I just remember shouts and screams, and people clamoring that someone had apprehended one of the assassins. And that some of the elders I remember from the Garvey movement, who had given us a hall,

were just hysterical, saying..[MURIEL STOPS TALKING SOUNDS To BE STRUGGLING AGAINST TEARS.] Excuse me, (unintel). Excuse me.]7740 I'll have to get myself together. Um, I'll have to start all over again, I guess.

Q: (unintel)

would not tape this.]7869 Excuse me. [audio cuts out here].

Q: --with uh Betty coming onstage.

the police um the ambulance to get there, um and the hospital was just across the street from the Audubon.]7978 So I heard other stories, I guess, about people who saw one of the assassins jump into a police car, um and those kind of things which, uh, I was told. And /I remember, [[8002I went I went went went with Betty across the street to the hospital, and uh they got there before I did, before I did came up on the elevator behind them later on. And I just remember um, that when I got DA 8023 there, they just had pronounced him dead,] you know? And uh… ]8029 so, I guess, you know, I really just, I just saw Betty's position being such a, you know, really, it was just a, it was just nightmare. It was like it didn't really happen. When I left the ho- hospital, um, I remember seeing Ola Tunjee, and he I was saying that he had, that's on his way DA 8065 there because he had had a bad dream and was going to tell Malcolm not to speak. I just remember him saying that afterwards, and um…

Q: What do you [Muriel interrupts here]?

Q: What do you think at the moment when you see this person who has been so alive and energetic—-

person who I we expected was going to help him implement some of the plans and um move the organization, get the organization moving.

Q: Do you go to the funeral?

Q: Why didn't you go to the funeral?

kind of, I guess, is one of the most tramatic things, u and um, I guess Betty, I guess, 8298[ there were, [I guess, Peter and I, were um closer to Betty at that time than we'd ever been. And um, the you know, I felt so much for her. Um, four girls and two more on the way.]8327 And uh, so I guess at that point in time, I was really clear that I was going to Africa. I'd been thinking about it and making some provisional plans, and did, at DA 8346 the end of that year, go to East Africa. Uh, and a lot of the the ideas that I had uh developed about what I wanted, to do in my life came from influences theythat hethey gave us, that our struggle was bigger than United States, and that we needed to do things on on on different, on all those environments that were part of our our people. So uh...Mmm- hmm?

Q: (unintel) about the personal qualities—-

Q: --that you would like to remember him for, what would [Muriel interrupts]——

Q: You mentioned the ego (unintel).

remember another occasion where Malcolm had some of us who were um uh members of the OAAU come with him to a reception at the UN, uh the Tanzania Embassy's ce1e- independence celebration. And uh, I don't know, Peter and I were, were just watching this very middle- class black woman who was, you know, never expected to see Malcolm X in the context of a United Nations reception. And we said, (unintel) just watch, watch, and she inched DA 8519 and inched and inched, and then she came over to almost to where he was, and he turned out around and smiled. And I just watched her whole demeanor change. Uh, you know, like I I remember occasions where he said, "See, I have no horns," you know. And people would just nod. I think his qua1— warmth, warmth, yes. Mmm-hmm.

Q: --run out.

THIS IS UH, CAMERA ROLL ONE-EIGHTY-SEVEN ON SOUND ROLL NINETY-TWO, CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH MURIEL FEELINGS.

Q: Uh, (unintel).

Q: How uh--

Q: Tell me how you see him.

Q: Just uh, just that one question.

Q: No, actually, just tell me how you, if you had this image right now of Malcolm, describe him. Personally...

Q: So you can start with that one.

um African-American, who were surprised at him, to see him there, and another one of the members and I were watching as they inched their way over, you know, reluctantly, toward him. And when he turned around and smiled, then they just melted, and their whole attitude was just so different than...There were other occasions where um, you know, people um tried to, or kind of gingerly DA 8759 approached him, and he just said, "See, I don't have any horns," you know. So he disarmed people, and I remember this, that he disarmed people, and you saw that he's jus-, he was just a human being,] you know? A lot of warmth,]8774 and uh no-nonsense when it came to doing serious business. Very no-nonsense. And uh, but he was very human. And um, did I mention to you about the student, this white student with the, one of the rallies?

Q: Yeah. You mentioned...Let me just ask you, ‘cause you talked about how his lack of ego.

him, too, is that uh he would accept ideas DA 8816 from people, wherever they came from. He didn't seem to have a ego about uh being the originator or something. He would absorb those things. It was kind of a pragmatism, that uh real concern for uh the usefulness of the individual, rather than the agenda, or their their uh what their backgrounds were. Uh, you know, there was a time in the Sixties when even people had a middle-class DA 8856 background were being put down for it, when he saw anybody could be, that whatever qualities and knowledge they have is the uh essence of who, what they were, rather than um other things, external things. Um, so these are the kind of things. Really to embrace uh uh people of various backgrounds, DA 8888 and bring them together and utilize them. He was a good organizer, I guess, and um he was able to...There was a potential there for a lot of things that I think we could, we would've been miles ahead of where we are today.

Q: What is Malcolm's legacy?

those who he learned from. And uh the independent uh economic development efforts that have also uh evolved. I think the whole thing's that, everything's developed out of a sense of self-determination.

Q: (unintel)...

Q: He has to get the tone of the room.

UH, THIS’ LL BE ROOM TONE FOR--

ROOM TONE! STAY OUT.