SPEED.

JUST GIVE ME A SECOND TO GET SETTLED.

OK.

OK, I AM SETTLED.

OK, THE FIRST THING I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT IS WHAT KIND OF PLACE WAS LITTLE ROCK—I MEAN, EXCUSE ME, WAS CENTRAL HIGH? CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT FOR US? WHAT IT WAS LIKE WHEN YOU WERE THERE.

Central High was a very special place even back in 1957, because of the long history—the colorful history of the school, the tradition that had come down through the years. Little Rock was a pretty good-sized town, in that time, just to have one white high school. And so, all of the students, all over the whole town went to this one school and for a town of a hundred thousand population, whatever it was then, it drew everybody together. And most of the people who were students their parents had also gone to high school there. So this tradition was passed down. It was a very, very—it was a school that was very steeped in tradition. It was wonderful. It carried over onto the football field. It carried over into the classrooms. The students really felt a closeness.

WHAT KIND OF REPUTATION DID THE SCHOOL HAVE?

The school had a terrific reputation throughout the United States. It had a, an unusually high number of National Merit Scholars that would come out which is still true today. There's a tremendous number of National Merit Scholars that come out of Central High School that go to the Ivy League schools every year that go all over the United States. Its reputation for scholarship was very strong and its reputation in athletics was strong as well. It had a football team that was, I think, we won thirty-three straight games during the period that I was there. They even created what they called a, a Junior Rose Bowl and tried to get Little Rock Central to play in that a—along with another school from California which were ranked as the top two high school football teams in the country. Unfortunately, our School Board wouldn't let us go though.

WHEN DID YOU, WHEN DID YOU HEAR THAT THE, THE SCHOOL WAS GONNA BE INTEGRATED? DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU HEARD THAT INFORMATION AND WHAT YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?

I don't remember exactly when I first realized that the school was going to be integrated, but I do remember that one of the things that bothered me was that we were being told to do something that we might or might not want to do. I was a student of the Civil War and, and Robert E. Lee was, and still is, one of my ideals and he was a man that believed deeply in the, in the local government having a closer knowledge and awareness of what the people wanted, as opposed to the Federal Government. And so, my first thought was—not that we were gonna have to go to school with blacks that didn't bother me, but that we were being told by the Federal Government to do something and we didn't have any say-so in that.

CAN WE STOP FOR A MOMENT?

MARK. THANK YOU.

JUST, JUST HOW SEGREGATED WAS, WAS LITTLE ROCK AT THAT TIME?

Little Rock was a 100% segregated back then. We still had separate restrooms labeled white and colored. I remember my father used to get someone to work for him in the yard every Saturday. He'd go downtown, there would always be a bunch of, of black men who were out of work, that needed work, and would do yard work and he would bring one home. When lunch time came we would go in to eat and my mother would always take the food for the yard man out, so he could eat outside. And we kept a separate plate and a separate Mason jar for him to drink out of and separate silverware and it was just something that was set aside for them. That was something that we all took for granted as, as something that happened. Although it never bothered me, when I went out of town and went up to northeast Arkansas, to a tiny town called Weiner, Arkansas, when I was very young, we used to play with all the black children up there. I never knew any difference. It didn't make any difference to me. But when it came back down to the more urban areas there—the line was pretty strong there.

CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT, ABOUT SEEING THE NATIONAL GUARD ROLL IN AND TAKING THE PICTURES THAT NIGHT AND HOW YOU FELT ABOUT IT.

Well, I had, I had gone down to the school, the night before it opened, and just kind of a tradition. I was gonna meet some friends down there and I was sitting there, outside the school, waiting for them and I heard some pretty loud noises coming down the street. And I looked up and saw a convoy coming down. And I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was military vehicles and they started rolling by me and started parking in all of the intersections all around the school. And I immediately moved my car out of where they were and I, I had a camera in the car. And I, I jumped out and ran back, and I was scared to death, because I didn't know what was happening, but I, I ran up and took a quick picture of, of the first vehicle that pulled in and then I was so scared that I jumped back in my car and took off without taking any more. I didn't know whether they were the good guys or the bad guys. I didn't even—I didn’t know whether they were National Guard or federal troops or what they were. And didn't know until I got home and it was all on television about the fact that Governor Faubus had called out the National Guard.

COULD YOU TELL US YOUR STORY ABOUT THE FIRST DAY WHEN THE STUDENTS CAME IN AND YOU ENDED UP DIRECTING THEM TO THE PRINCIPAL’S OFFICE. YOU WERE TELLING ME ABOUT THAT ON THE PHONE.

Yeah. I had—one of my jobs as a, as an officer in the, in the Student Council was to do some outside work for the—raise the flags for the homeroom period. So I was generally the last person in the halls every morning after raising the flag before I went to class. We had—this had been going on the, the—all the commotion and everything outside the school had been going on for some time. The federal troops had come in. And one morning after I had raised the flag and was on my way to my homeroom I looked up and through a side door I saw the students, the black students, coming in. And they looked lost. In fact, when they first came in there was, there was nobody with them. They were, they were by themselves. And, and the military people were behind them, so I didn't see them. So I walked up to, I guess, Ernest Green was probably the first one in line there and, and I said, I guess, I guess you're looking for the office, aren't you? And he said, yes we are. And I said, well c'mon, I'll show you where it is. So I took them down to the, the office and walked in and, and told Miss Huckaby that the students were there to come to school and with that I left.

YOU WERE SAYING THAT FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT, RAISING THE FLAG, THAT YOU SAW A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT AFFECTED YOUR—THE CHANGES THAT HAPPENED IN YOU THAT YEAR. CAN YOU DESCRIBE SOME OF THOSE THINGS?

Well, it's, it’s a weird thing, I think. You wonder if anything good ever comes out of giving—being given a task such as raising a flag, but, I think, that gave me an opportunity I would not have had otherwise, because I, I had the opportunity to see what was going on outside the school, to see the, the anger and to fee—feel the, the sense— you could cut it with a knife, the tension outside the school with these people who had come in from other parts of the state, other states. There were license plates from all other states that were there. People who had come in and were outside our school. Very few people from Little Rock were there causing these problems that I could see. But it was just an ugly attitude. And it, it, especially, I have a picture of, of when Elizabeth Eckwar—Eckford came to try to get into school. And the crowd began to heckle her and jeer and shout as she walked along. And I, and I was just dumbfounded. I ran up with my—I had my camera at the time. I ran up and took a picture of it. And then as she went on, I thought, well, I can't believe people would actually be this way to, to other people. And seeing all of this hate really began to make me realize that, that, that all the world is not rosy. That in fact, there, there are some people out there that are persecuted. And there are some people that don't get a fair shake. And there are people that are ugly, that don't understand and are not open-minded. And I began to change from being somebody who was, I considered myself a moderate, who, if I had my way, would have said, let's don't integrate, because it's the state's right to decide, to someone who felt a real sense of compassion for these students. And felt like they deserved something that, that I had and I also developed a real dislike for the people that were out there that were causing the problems. It was very unsettling to me.

STOP FOR A MOMENT PLEASE.

I’M THINKING—YEAH.

SOUND IS ROLLING.

OK. GOOD. OK, IT’S ALL YOURS.

ABOUT HOW LONG AFTER THE TROOPS CAME IN DID IT TAKE FOR THINGS TO BEGIN TO REALLY SETTLE DOWN AT, AT THE SCHOOL?

Are you talking about the 101st or the National Guard?

THE 101ST.

After the 101st Airborne came in things settled down probably within twenty-four hours. That was a crack bunch of troops. They knew what they were doing. Their leader was a, a superior military man and they called us together in an assembly at school and introduced General Walker as being the commander of the troops and he told us how the cow ate the cabbage. The troops were first-class in every way. They were very courteous, but they didn't take any—anything off of anybody and you could tell, just by the way they stood, that they meant business and so things cleaned out immediately. One of the, one of the good things was they immediately moved the demarcation zone away from the campus. And so, that we were protected by a block of dead space, where people couldn't drive down and, and they dispersed. We didn't know whether there were any riots or people or anything going on away from the school, because they had the good sense to move their line of troops away. And that immediately, once, once the crowds got away from the school there was no excitement to them. So they eventually dispersed. And it was because of the professional way that the 101st handled it.

WHERE THEY FAIRLY INTIMIDATING? I THINK YOU ALREADY ANSWERED THAT BUT—

Yeah. They, they were very intimidating. They were, they were all business. They were there to do a job and, and they did it.

I THINK YOU WERE TELLING ME THAT THERE WERE OTHER THINGS THE TROOPS DID, THOUGH, TO TRY AND WIN THE STUDENTS TO—SO THAT THEY WOULDN’T BE SO AFRAID.

Yeah. We, we were apprehensive about the, the troops when they came, because, I think, I think they were uptight too. They didn't know what they were going to get into. There had been some, some violence go on. There had been some people hurt and they were going in to what they might even consider a war zone, so to speak. So they were a little tense. And, and, of course, we were tense because they were coming in, as federal troops, and we didn't know what to think. They bivouacked and pitched their tents on our football practice field. And the helicopters parked out there and from time to time would take off. But they didn't fraternize with the students, at all. So there was a, a little bit of distance between ‘em. But the first time there was a home football game, when Central played at, at the stadium which is right behind the school. Well, all of the 101st airborne troops came as a unit and marched in and sat on the Central High side and cheered for the Tigers. And when they did that they immediately won over the hearts of the parents and the students, and the team, and everybody else and it really broke the ice and, and was a great thing. Another thing that they did was—they went several of them went to the state fair and they won a bunch of stuffed toys out there. And, then, they decided they were going to give those to, I think Children's Hospital, donate those. And so, they called the student newspaper, and asked if they could get some publicity for that, which, which we gave them publicity. And they did little things like that that really kind of won the community over to them which I thought was really great.

WE’RE STILL ROLLING? SHOULD WE CUT?

I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION. WHAT ROLE DID THE TEACHERS PLAY IN THIS SITUATION?

The teachers had a very tough role in this situation, especially, early on when the National Guard was there. At the time, the school was not air-conditioned so the windows were open and hot in September. And the crowd was right outside the windows. So it's terribly distracting. You could hear people milling and shouting and chanting and the noise of cars driving around and every once in a how—once in a while you'd hear a jeer go up, and you'd wonder what in the world. As, as a student, you'd wonder, what's going on out there? And so the teachers had to work extra hard to keep our concentration and to keep our minds on our schoolwork. I think they did a fantastic job. They—then after the students, after the black students came in, of course, the, the tension was there and the teachers did a tremendous job to break down the tension and to ease everybody's mind that there wasn't gonna be any violence. Although we had, from time to time, we would have bomb scares, fake bomb scares. I think one time they may have found some dynamite in a, in a locker, but it, it was really the teachers who, and the student leaders, who worked so hard to ease all of this and to make the transition smooth. And they really did a tremendous job.

OK. CAN WE STOP FOR A SECOND?

NO GIVE ME A SECOND STICKS THERE.

OK. SECOND STICKS.

GO AHEAD.

OK, LOU IT’S ALL YOURS.

OK. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE, THE CHILI INCIDENT WITH MINNIJEAN BROWN? WHAT, WHAT HAPPENED AND, AND HOW THAT MADE YOU FEEL?

I remember lunch was a particularly interesting time, at this time, because I, I had the same lunch period as, as the blacks did. We had split lunch. There were a group of, of boys. I don't know how to describe ‘em, but they, they would taunt the black students. And they had to be very subtle about it, because there were troops. The 101st was standing maybe twenty feet away at the door to the cafeteria. And—but the, the taunts could be heard by the black students. And Minnijean had been getting more than her fair share of taunts, because she would, she would talk back. The other, the other black students kept to themselves and, as the Bible says, they would turn the other check. Minnijean would snap back at people and so—and she immediately—that caused her to become a target. These boys had been taunting her at lunch that day and she very discreetly got up and as she walked by them, with her bowl of chili, she just proceeded to put it—dump it on top of this fellow's head. And there were a lot of people started cheering and laughing, but immediately the troops came over and the guy jumped up and the, the troops came over to make sure nothing would happen and got her out. We thought it was kind of funny at, at our table. It was—as long as the guy didn't get burned, but the chili wasn't that hot apparently, but, but we had seen her do some things that we did not think were, were good for the situation that was going on. Of course, obviously, in retrospect, after they had taken her off, we sat there and talked about it and then felt like that that was a damaging, particular incident, in terms of trying to make, make the integration go smoothly that she had finally caved in to the point that she did something that was gonna be harmful to the overall process. I had—I sat at lunch every day with the same people and I noticed that there were some times that Ernest Green would come in and sit by himself. The other, other students might have been—other black students might have been elsewhere. So one day I, I asked Ernest if, if he'd come join us for lunch. And he got his tray and came over and sat down with us. And then I realized it was very awkward to talk with him. Because I began to realize that I didn't have anything in common with him other than we were in the same school. I couldn't talk about things that you do after, after school, 'cause I didn't know whether the black kids did the same things we did after school. I mean, that's, that's how segregated we were. I, I didn't know whether we had any commonality of interests. But I still wanted him to know there were people there that, that cared and that nobody—everybody at our table was glad to have him there. And he sat with us, off and on, most of the time then for the rest of the school year. And we eventually were able to find things in common that we could talk about.

AFTER THE MINNIJEAN INCIDENT WERE YOU AWARE OR, EVEN BEFORE THAT INCIDENT, WERE YOU AWARE OF MATERIALS BEING CIRCULATED IN THE SCHOOL? RACIST MATERIALS, HATE, HATE MATERIALS?

There was a small group of, oh, maybe fifteen, twenty students out of the, oh I guess, maybe eighteen hundred or two thousand students that were hard-core arch—segregationists. The rest of us were pretty much moderate in, in this particular situation. But this hard-core, whose parents were very active in something called the Citizens' Coun—White Citizens' Council, would bring things to school and pass ‘em out. And, and it was really hate literature. It was— when Minnijean, for example, was kicked out of school following the chili incident, they, they brought cards and gave them out that said, “one down, eight to go." When school was out in, in May they still hadn't given up the fight. They, they came out with a two-color card that said, "Ike go home. Liberation day, May 29th, 1958," which was graduation day. They were still fighting the, the battle even then. And this went on all during school. It was really disconcerting. It was, it was sad to see them do these things. And I don't think they ever won anybody over, but they did come out and pass these things out, off and on during the school year.

HOW IMPORTANT DID—IN TERMS OF THE STORY GETTING OUT AND PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING WHAT WAS HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF LITTLE ROCK—

—HOW IMPORTANT WERE YOU—DO YOU THINK THE NEWSMEN WERE IN THE CRISIS? YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING INTERVIEWED YOURSELF.

[pause] Well, I'm in public relations and I teach journalism at a, at a black college here in Little Rock.

OH, I’M SORRY.

WE’RE ABOUT TO RUN OUT FILM AREN’T WE?

YEAH. MY MISTAKE. I WAS SO INTERESTED IN WHAT HE WAS SAYING I—I FORGOT WE’VE RUN OUT OF FILM.

SPEED.

AND IT’S ALL YOURS.

HOW IMPORTANT WERE THE, THE NEWS MEDIA IN THE—IN THIS CRISIS AND WHAT WERE THEIR ROLES?

Well, I've, I’ve thought a lot about that through the years. I'm in public relations and, and, and I teach journalism at a black college here in Little Rock, at night. The thing that—I was real—really upset then. The idea of the liberal eastern press was very evident, to me, as far as I could tell. I really didn't feel like that the—a balanced story was being given. Throughout the whole year, I—Dr. Benjamin Fine, who was the education editor for the New York Times, was down and spent a good deal of time here. But I felt like his, his reporting was slanted toward the black viewpoint. And I felt like the moderate white students, who were there for an education whether it was racially mixed or, or segregated, their story was never told to any degree. The sensationalism of the violence, the sensationalism of federal versus states' rights these things were uppermost in their minds and, and the little, the little people, the students got left behind. There was a great cartoon, editorial cartoon, by the late John Kennedy, in the Arkansas Democrat, in, in which he showed the students being pulled in every direction, by a number of different things that went on during this time. That recognized where we were, but in, in terms of our story being told, on a national level, I don't think it ever was.

LET ME MAKE ONE QUICK ADJUSTMENT HERE.

WANT TO STOP? JUST GO ON AND ANSWER THE QUESTION THEN.

AND MARK.

SPEED.

THANK YOU.

SO I ASKED YOU ABOUT THE, WE’RE GOOD, THIS IS WHAT WE’LL GET GOING WITH. THE FEDERAL TROOPS IN THE SCHOOL AND, AND WHAT YOU FELT ABOUT BEING—HAVING TO SPEND YOUR SENIOR YEAR LIKE THAT.

OK. WE’RE BACK LOU. IT’S ALL YOURS.

OK. I THINK YOU’VE ALREADY DESCRIBED THIS IN PART, BUT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT WHAT IT WAS LIKE HAVING THE FEDERAL TROOPS IN THE SCHOOL YOUR SENIOR YEAR? I'M SURE YOU HAD EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT THAT YEAR WAS GONNA BE AND THE LAST THING YOU EXPECTED WAS TO SPEND THAT YEAR UNDER ARMED GUARD. WELL HOW'D THAT MAKE YOU FEEL AS A SENIOR?

I knew my senior year was going to be a great year. And I was determined that nothing was going to keep that from happening. It, it was a real tragedy the way it began, but having to go to school my senior year under federal troops, I was—I figured well, that's, that’s the way that it's going to be. I can't let it interfere. I’ve got to go on and get my education. They were inside the school, but they became invisible after a while. You just—they, they kind of were sorta like the statue of the tiger there. You just pass by ‘em all the time. And you went on with your schoolwork. You went on with your life and you went on with developing your relationships with your friends and planning for the future. It didn't inter—interfere with my education, because I didn't let it interfere with my education.

DID YOU EVER SEE ANY OF THE, THE, THE HARRASSING INCIDENTS WHERE THE WHITE KIDS ATTACKED OR HARRASSED THE BLACK STUDENTS ASIDE FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE RAISING THE FLAG? DID YOU SEE ANY THINGS, THINGS HAPPENING IN THE, IN THE SCHOOL ITSELF.

Inside the school, I never saw any incidents at all. I never saw any of the supposed pushing and shoving incidents that took place or any of those things at all, never did.

DO YOU THINK THEY HAPPENED?

Probably, they happened. Yes, some of ‘em did. I know some docudramas have sensationalized some of the things. They took a few liberties to make them a little worse than they really were. But some of ‘em did.

WERE YOU HARRASSED YOURSELF BY OTHER STUDENTS WHO DIDN'T APPRECIATE YOUR MORE MODERATE POSITION?

I was harassed to some point on occasion. I was interviewed back in '58 on national television and there were two segregationists, two moderates and two liberal students. Six students were interviewed. And I was one of the moderates. The segregationists wouldn't even speak to me, because I wasn't a segregationist. When I invited Ernest Green, the only black senior, to join me for lunch I got some verbal abuse from some students for doing that. But other than that, that was it.

CAN WE STOP FOR A SECOND?

AND MARK.

SPEED.

GOOD. OK.

ALL SET?

I AM ALL SET. YEAH.

CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT GRADUATION. YOU, YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO HAVE A VERY NORMAL, PRODUCTIVE SENIOR YEAR. WAS IT, WAS IT NORMAL EVEN THOUGH ERNEST GREEN WAS THERE AND, AND LITTLE ROCK WAS, RATHER, CENTRAL HIGH WAS GRADUATING ITS FIRST BLACK STUDENT? WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

Well, graduation was prettty electric. We didn't know what to expect. Graduation in those days was held outdoors in the football stadium. Security was very tight. People had to have passes to get in. It was a time that we were apprehensive, not knowing what could happen, if anything could happen. We still didn't know whether some outsiders might roll in from some other states and, and firebomb the place. So we, we were a little nervous about it. Course we were excited about graduation coming and the all-night party and things that go along with it. As was Ernest, and, and he stood around joked with the students. We were all joking together there waiting to process in. And I do remember that as the students’ names were called and they'd get up and go across the platform and receive their diploma that I really held my breath when Ernest's name was called. And he walked up, and I just prayed that, that nothing would happen. And he got up and walked over and got his diploma and walked down. And, and I breathed a sigh of relief. When the last person in line got their diploma, I knew it was all over but the shouting. And it was a tremendous feeling. It was a great feeling of relief, too.

ALL RIGHT THAT’S IT. I, I’VE GOT NO—

STOP FOR A MOMENT.

AND MARK.

OK. MAYBE YOU CAN DESCRIBE FOR US NOW THE, THE NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS.

When the—

CAN WE STOP FOR A SECOND?

EIGHT.

AND MARK.

[coughs] CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE, THE NATIONAL GUARD COMING TO, TO LITTLE ROCK—TO, TO CENTRAL HIGH?

The National Guard, that was there first, was called up by the Governor and it included everybody, including some of the students from Central High, who, eighteen years old, had just joined, joined the Guard, probably went to summer camp that summer. And they found themselves with rifles, standing there, face to face, with their fellow classmates. I've got a couple of pictures here of some of the National Guardsmen. It, it was, it was a funny feeling to see your friends there with, with guns, on the campus. And, and they were very uncomfortable about it, too. They didn't really know. It, it had come up so suddenly. They didn't know how to react, what to do, they were just following orders. And it was very lacksadaisical [sic]; it was almost a, a joke to, to some of ‘em. They laughed about it. They were very casual about it. And, and they were not as strict and disciplined in their actions as the federal troops that were gonna follow them.

STOP FOR A MOMENT.

I’M GONNA WORK—CHANGE SOUND.

OK.

The students came in and they were a little bit disoriented about where they were. They were looking around and, I remember thinking, well, thank God, this is over they're in. And we can go on and, and get things done. And I was, I was almost overjoyed to see ‘em, because I was so sick and tired of all the trash that I'd seen going on outside of the school which is why I walked up to them to take ‘em to the class—to the office, so they could go ahead and get on about their business of going to, to school. They probably were dressed better than, than most of us in the, in the school, I remember that. They—the boys had on denim pants, black denim pants, and, and most of us wore blue jeans. But they, they were very nicely dressed and, and I could tell that their hearts must have been pounding clear out of their chests. I could tell from looking at ‘em they were scared to death. That they had finally crossed over the threshold and gotten inside the school and I'm sure that there must have been a lot of panic that they felt too. I never ask ‘em about it, but I just could sense that about ‘em, too.

DUNK? [sic]

WE’RE, WE’RE, WE’RE GOOD.