Mark it, please.

Black Champions, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar interview, camera roll three fifty-four.

OK.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, we're gonna talk a little bit about champions, and championship play-level of championship play. I think the NBA is perhaps somewhat different from other leagues of professional competition in that from night to night, you are continually playing against the best players in the world. I don't think anybody looks upon a trip to any part of the NBA as a, as a vacation. Perhaps you can talk a little bit about the way that causes players to conduct themselves. It creates certain kinds of pressure; creates certain demands. Perhaps some fans are not aware of the fact that there is this night-to-night, city-to-city kind of championship-level pressure that's on every player. Perhaps you could discuss that for us.

It's kind of hard to discuss it clinically, because I've dealt with it for so long. It's just the normal state of affairs for me. And because I'm still involved in the sport, it doesn't, I don't understand the contrast exactly the same way that you might, because you see it from a different perspective.

D-, do you think most fans in that regard see the game from a dis-, different perspective than the playe--is there a gap between the, the player's understanding of, of championship-level NBA ball and what the people who are coming to see the games every night perceive?

Most definitely, because what they see, everybody's good, and everybody does their job well. They don't understand what it might take to be able to be prepared to do your job well at all times. And the players that have the ups and downs, if they have too many downs, they're not around too much longer.

W-, what kind of special preparations? I mean, on a, on a day-speaking of yourself, for example, on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis level of concentration that's required, must, must bring certain things out of you-

I think the, the most demanding thing is the training. We get the fundamentals basically as we're in, children and through high school and college. And from that point on, you have to maintain and sharpen on little things, the total aspect of your game. But it's not, there's no one thing that you have to do that's so demanding. You have to have everything prepared, and you have to keep it prepared. And that's really the, y-, you pay that cost in, just having to go to practice all the time and not being able to do the things that you want to do. You can't party, and you can't go visit your friends in Iowa, or whatever it is, 'cause you have be traveling with the team, and that, that's a constant demand.

I think in that regard, many people would wonder then what the role of coaches, or coaching staffs, may be in regard to-I remember a coach, years ago, saying, being, coaching NBA, working to teach the players how to comb their hair. What, what, on a, on a, again, day-to-day, or even season-to-season basis, does the role of the coach have to do in, in relationship to the guys who are professionals, guys who have come to a certain level of play?

I think-[clears throat] excuse me. I think the coach has to coordinate talent. I mean he has to be a very good talent coordinator. He has to understand personalities and he has to put the right people together who can work together. You can get a lot of very talented people; if they can't work together very well, the-, they're not as effective as a unit, that might not be as talented but has a good team concept and can be a unified force most of the time. I think the teams that have the talent and the unity are the ones that win consistently.

A few years ago I had a conversation with Henry Bailey, who was then playing with Philadelphia. He said that he f-, it was his view that the most demanding thing he confronted, coming into the league, was learning how to play defense, and that this was a consistent problem with players who came in to the league who had, perhaps, outstanding offensive games, never really learned to play defense. It was a sense of, you can't play zone in, in, in the NBA. You really have to learn, I would guess, a level of professional defense that, that may be even demanding than any comparable form of the game at the college or amateur levels.

I think the zone definitely has hampered a lot of players' defensive ability. It's a great tool to use in college, but it's totally absent in the pro game, and players who really haven't ever been tested defensively really have a tough time their first couple of years in the league. I can think of a couple players that just really don't understand what it is to guard somebody, especially big men. They have to, they have to guard people real close to the, to the hoop, and if they're guarding somebody that's very mobile and has a variety of shots, they, they usually end up looking like they're kind of lost out there.

I mentioned before the, the whole concept of championship play, most particularly in the NBA. There are no dynasties anymore in the NBA. Some people f-, say, feel it's because there are more teams and the travel schedules. It, it would seem to me that the reason this is true is because the NBA draws into its ranks every year so many outstanding players, and that that talent seems to be distributed around the league in a way that makes it virtually impossible for you to think of a team, again, like the Celtics winning eleven out of thirteen years. What do you make?

Well, I think the, the most basic thing is that the league changes just a little bit each year. Every team changes. Just two or three different players on a single team can make that team go from mediocre to being a serious contender. And you never know who's going to pop up where, who's going to get hurt. Those are the variables that no one can predict, and I think that's what keeps it more or less a revolving door. You don't have the ability to really have one group of personnel establish domination and maintain it, and-it's just it, it doesn't work that way.

When you say that the coaches are, have to be talent coordinators, I guess that means they really have to be able to select, from the available pool of college players, not only good ball-players-

-but people who are going to fit into a-

-a style, perhaps, that they've established already. Is that, is that, would you say the bigger part of the coaching responsibilities?

I think so. You have to have people that you know can work together. If you have certain talents, and you need a certain additional talent, and you get the wrong additional talent, then the whole picture doesn't-

-work. So, it's like a puzzle-

-you know, you need to get these pieces here together, and then this key piece, and then everything seems to, to fit together. And when that doesn't happen, things go off and, and you have a, a lot of disarray.

In the fourteen or fifteen years or so since you've, you've been in the NBA, their continuing talk about the process of bringing college athletes into the professional ranks and what this does; that we, we hear mostly about the abuses in recruiting and, and, and rec-, abuses in the use of players, and in, in terms of their educational programs. In your view, has it changed a great deal? Are you seeing players come into the league better prepared, let's say, for a total life in terms of education, in terms of their background in college; or perhaps less well-prepared than, than you were when you were in college? Has that situation really changed very much? Is the drive for championship play, championships at the college level, tending to distort some of the things that are happening?

I think the college situation is very distorted. I think that whole question of amateur athletics is, has really become, it's totally, it's totally separated itself from its origins and it's become-

-something else. College athletics is not really amateur athletics. It's a big business, and the only people involved in it that aren't allowed to make any money are the athletes, and they become, they're really exploited. You have a situation where you have universities making lots of money; the networks make lots of money; the coaches make money. The only people that don't make any money are the athletes, and most of the time they don't get their education. Most of the time they're not even pushed toward that end; they are just kept eligible as long as they are of some use to the university. And then when their eligibility is used up, they're gone. [Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

You had the case of a, of a young man that went through a whole college program, and he had first or second grade literacy. This isn't uncommon; this is more common than even we've found out about. And I think the athletes are really being exploited. A young man who would devote the time that he put into his sport and take that time and put it into academics could do a whole lot better for himself throughout his whole lifetime; I mean, immensely. There's an immense difference in the benefits that you can get from having a good college education and using it in this society. The difference between that and being an athlete for one or two years, it's night and day. But it's very hard, I'd say darn near impossible to impress young people with this.

You had to go through the same thing. You grew up in New York City. The pressures here for you as an athlete are certainly the equivalent, if not much greater, than they were for a lot of other athletes. You went to school; you maintained grades; you played ball. What is the difference between somebody who can do that in a pressured situation, in a university, and someone who can't? Perhaps we, we're talking about what is needed to make the difference between the guy who does achieve and the guy who doesn't.

I was very fortunate. My father had a college-

-education in music-

Cut.

We've just gotta change-

-just ran out.

Slate it.

Three fifty-five.

I think I was very fortunate in my background, because my parents always had as a goal for me, the fact that I should get a college education. My father has a college education. He went to the, Juilliard and got his degree in musicology. So that was always a goal for me, and I always had my eyes on it. Basketball became a possibility for me later, but my first goal was to go to college and, and get my education. So, basketball just made it easier, but I never lost sight of the fact that that's what I wanted to do while I was at college. I got my degree; I graduated in four years-which is unusual in itself [laughs]. It doesn't happen like that too much anymore. [Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

Is there anything that can be done at the university level? I mean obviously kids have to be motivated in, in the pursuit of an education. But are there things that, that the universities are, are not doing now that in, in your experience could be done, perhaps to, to make it, to, to raise that average of a, a number of athletes who do, in fact, get degrees?

I don't think that anything can be done at the university level, because by that time you have somebody that's already been totally through an educational system; and if they're not equipped, it's very hard for them to backtrack and make up all that lost ground. I think high school programs really have to be the ones that try to help n-, students that have potential to be college athletes, they have to help them with their academics. They're gonna need the math and the languages and the science that everyone else has to have in order to get into a, an academic institution. They're gonna need that too. And that's not impressed on them in, in high school. [Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

I'm positive that a lot more students would understand the, the need for the academic background if it was impressed on 'em at an early enough time, but too many of them see the fact that so-and-so just signed this pro contract and is driving a, a, a big car, and is dressed well, and is very popular, and that's, seems to be the goal, rather than academic goals and things that are a lot less sensational [clears throat], but a lot more stable. [Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

You've been around champion athletes who are basketball players and probably in most other sports, as well. Is there an identifiable-is there a commonality among people who have come from one place to another on the way of being a champion, or who've come from circumstances that perhaps did not speak of championship-level, or even aspiration, who have arrived at, obviously, a very special place in terms of the effort that has to go into it. Is there something that people could know about them, that perhaps you'd say, hey, this is what you gotta be. This is what these guys have done, been through. If you're young and you wanna go there, this is the common thread that binds these guys together.

I think the most common thing that you, you'll find is the desire to win. I know I had it when I was a kid; I wanted to win all the foot races, and I wanted to [clears throat] get the most home runs when, when I played baseball, and I wanted to score a lot of points playing basketball. And I guess it's something that I concentrated on and managed to do well at. So I, I just think the desire to win is probably the internal thing. And then you have to have certain physical gifts.

Is the desire to win something you can teach a person?

I think you can, you can aid someone in developing it, but if they don't have it, they're not ever gonna have it. You know, there are some people that just like to sit home and read books, or go to the movies. They don't have a very s-, intense competitive urge. Other people do. Some people that, that have the competitive urge aren't athletic and they get into different other things. But there are, there, there is a difference between people who compete very hardly and-pardon me, who, who compete very intensely, and people who just kinda back off from that type of thing.

In ball, are you gonna find the same thing? Are you gonna find perhaps the difference on some teams is that people cannot compete intensely, or-this is another level of, of, of what you're talking about. But is it possible to think that on some ball clubs, the difference between champions and guys who, you know, come to the playoffs and reach one round or another every year-is the difference between guys having, and perhaps in a final sense, that desire, that, that intense internal fire to win; and guys who maybe don't have it?

Well, I think at the professional level, everybody has the talent. Everybody has the talent. But some people can't deal with the hardship that you have to go through in order to [pause], to go that extra couple of feet; to, to, to make that extra basket or whatever it is. Some people just, they give up sooner than others. And you can take two people of equal talent and if the competitive edge in one of them is a lot less than the other, then you'll see a big disparity in their performance. People who have the same competitive edge and differing talents, then talent takes over. But I think that the competitive desire of an individual really sets him apart from ordinary, from ordinary people. It's a lot easier to see in horses, you know. You can get a big, strong horse who's got speed, and if he doesn't want to run at the front of the pack, then he's always an also-ran and of, of no consequence. It's the one with the heart that usually brings home the purse. That's, I think that's a, a very true fact in athletics.

When we spoke to Arthur Ashe, he, he described for us a place he said tennis players call, the zone. And it's a place where you play so far into the game, where you've become so obsessed and concentrated wi-, with the moments, the moment-to-moment activity in the game, that he said, he describes it as almost playing out of your mind. And he said the level of the game at that point is, is not only unimaginable to many athletes, it's almost completely divorced from people who are watching games. Have you ever experienced anything even similar to that?

Well, I know what he's talking about. When your concentration reaches a point where y-, you are totally single-minded and your whole being, your body your mind and your, your total focus is involved in the moments of the, of the competition-very talented people will demonstrate things that an, most people don't really understand. Another way to un-, to understand it would be, you can take a woman that weighs a hundred twenty pounds and she sees a piano fall on a child and she can pick the piano up off her child. And you let her do it a thousand more times and she can't even budge it off the ground. This is something that human beings are, are able to do. It's reaching into the depths of whatever it is, and giving their most. And when you do that, you usually excel.

Those of us who watched the, the NBA championships this year, between your team, the Cel-, your team, the Lakers [laughs], and, and the Boston Celtics, I think felt that a number of points-I certainly did; I can only speak for myself-that you were playing the game at a level that, from a spectator point of view, was just phenomenal. And it, it occurred to me that you must be feeling something completely special, because most cynics would say, hey, he's gonna get paid, anyway. If they go home without the ring this time, they come back next year. But it seems to me that something does happen. Could, could I, would I be safe in saying that during that series you were, perhaps after these many, many years in the NBA, achieving some very special personal levels of play?

I, it's flattering for people to want to compliment me on that, but I, that was a team effort. I was in the position of leadership, people count on me for leadership; but everybody gave their best, and if it didn't, if we didn't get that type of effort from everyone, we wouldn't have won. But without a doubt the people that we count on to lead us, myself, and, and Magic Johnson, we definitely, we were ready, we were totally into the game and focused on it. And I think we kind of pulled everybody with us.

You know, when we watch the playoffs, particularly the NBA, one of the big factors is the number of injuries that have affected the playoffs, affected the teams that have successfully negotiated the playoffs, and the level of championship play itself. Injuries seem so terribly common in a time when we know there've been tremendous advances in sports medicine; when we know that players themselves are a lot more aware of the care of their bodies. Does it seem to you over this period of time that you've been playing, that injuries are, are more common than they once were; or are they more serious, perhaps, than they once were? What, what about the, the rate of injuries, and the way it affects, again, championship play?

I don't think the rate of injuri-, injuries has increased that much. It's just that a, a crucial injury can, can knock a-

-team right out of it.

Cut.

Slate it.

Three fifty-four.

Thank you. OK.

Set?

Mm-hmm.

Good.

I don't think the rate of injuries has really increased at all. It's just that when you have an unfortunate incident, it really affects a team's ability to compete. Sometimes one player can really make a big difference.

I, I ask that question in relationship to questions raised by a number of, of observers of the game that say that the schedule and, and the traveling, and particularly at a point in the season players may be especially fatigued, and that the injury becomes a very significant part of the, the drive toward the playoffs schedule.

I don't know if it causes injuries, but it definitely decreases the quality of play. You, you got guys playing four games a week for like two, two or three months in a row, and after awhile you just don't have your best to give. They're gonna have to do something about that if they want the quality of the game to improve. But they don't have to do that. I think the, the owners of the, of the teams just really don't care. They care, but not enough to change anything. They're very comfortable with things the way they are, and they don't care, really, if the, if the game suffers because of the travel schedule.

Does that carry over into the general relationship between management and players? After all, we're talking about an industry, really, so we're talking about management and, and the proletariat [laughs], in a sense. Is there, in your view, a better relationship in that regard than existed when you came into the league?

I think it's better, but I don't think that management is totally committed to improving the game as, as much as they can. The season is too long, and you know, we, we play until-I think we stop playing about a week before Wimbeldon starts. That's ridiculous. You know, basketball used to be a winter sport. You know, it used to be something you did indoors after the football season ended. And now it's, it, they, they drag it out too far. I think they have a very good thing in the playoffs. There's a lot of fan interest in that; it's very well attended; it gets a lot of publicity; it's starting to become international. People are starting to recognize the NBA playoffs as a, as a major sporting event. And I think that they just really detract from that by dragging the season out so long. You have a situation where you have twenty-three teams in the league. Sixteen of them are gonna make the playoffs regardless of what happens. And they're gonna play eighty-two games to, to decide who makes the playoffs. That's just a little bit too much. They could cut it down and pare the season down to where it made sense, and to where they could have the playoff begin at a, at a great time, right in between seasons, right between the time that baseball gets hot and football has cooled off. I think it's a perfect time for the, for the NBA playoffs to take place. We have the whole arena to ourselves almost. But, you know, they don't see it like that; they don't see any need to change, and I guess we're just stuck with this.

Recently, Lou Carnesecca, the coach of St. John's team, said that he saw a time, perhaps, in the next five to ten years, when basketball would be a truly world professional sport. Do you see that coming?

I see it coming, definitely. There, there are starting to be talented players from around the world now. I believe there's someone from Spain that's gonna try out for an NBA team this year. There's been a Yugoslav that's tried out already. So, the, the talented people that are needed to play the game are starting to pop up in some faraway places, and there's a lot of interest. I believe the, the playoff finals this year were televised in Italy live, which is totally-I, I didn't understand that at all, and next thing I knew there was, I was being interviewed by an Italian TV crew. And I believe they showed one or two of the games in England and in Paris. Friend of mine that lives in Paris saw, saw one of the games in Paris. And people seem to really enjoy the game. It's, it's a good game for, for television. It's not very complicated and you can see the ball, and you can see what's happening, and you get a chance to appreciate the athletic skills. So I think that that is the future of the game.

NBA basketball, of course, has been dominated by black players for a number of years, and arguments, certainly here in the New York papers, have tilted back and forth on the reason why that is true. I've listened, for example, to Harry Edwards say there are more black ball players in the NBA because they work harder to get there and stay there. There are people who offer an argument I find kinda silly, to say, well, blacks are particularly physically suited for this, for this kind of game. Somewhere, perhaps, between those two extremities there is some reasonable discourse-

-about why seventy-five to eighty percent [laughs]-

[laughs]

-of the players in the NBA consistently out there, for years, have been black.

I have my own theories. I-they might not make me very popular, but-

A strong belief.

-I have my own theories. First of all,-

- athletics, as a means of changing our economic background, is really one of the few things that black people have in front of them where they have examples of people who have been successful. And you tend to follow the light, so to speak. Someone else was successful doing such-and-such; well, I'm gonna try it. So there's that incentive. I think there's the, just our own subculture. The, the whole idea of being able to go out on the basketball court and express yourself as an individual seems to appeal to the black population. It's appealed to a lot of whites too, but that seems to be something that's part of our subculture. I think physically you can't discount the fact that blacks in this country were bred to be physical specimens. The strongest men, the strongest black men that were around were encouraged to reproduce in the slavery system. I think that has built up a collection in our gene pool of physical specimens. Now I might be totally wrong. I, I think somebody should check that out. And I think it's, th-, there's also a factor that blacks have absorbed the dominant traits fr-, from two 'tirely divergent gene pools. And you see blacks from America and the Caribbean doing very well in certain sports; and I think that definitely helps their genetic, I think it, their genetic background definitely helps with that. Somebody that is strongly Japanese genetically is not gonna do well in basketball because they're not gonna be, have the right height. Yet on the other hand, they might be perfect for gymnastics. This is a genetic factor that definitely affects physical capabilities. I think it's there. I don't know to what degree, and I'm not saying that we got the right genes to play basketball, at all. But it, it does seem to be something to that, 'cause I, I've noticed that, that the black guys from Africa don't do well in the sprints [laughs] and they don't do too well in the four-hundred, and I was just trying to figure that out. That's why I started just observing that. And I could be completely wrong, but I, I think there's something to that. [Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

In, in regard to African-we've had one African, [unintelligible] a large one. Do you see a time when, because there are tribes of Africans who produce very tall people, do you see a time when there'd be a substantial number of, of Africans, perhaps, coming in, into the sport? Or is that-

I don't, I don't think that's far-fetched. Ten years ago, if you said there'd be a whole lot of German kids playing basketball, y-, somebody'd look at you. It's like in the pros, there's two or three now and there's several in college. Germans seem to have the genetic background that gives them the size that al-, al-, enables them to, to excel in basketball, a--some Germans. And because of that, it, the ones that do have an, the incentive to compete athletically, they'll probably produce more basketball players.

In the same regard, having this model in front of a lot of black youngsters across the United States, having on television, and having in their, their local arena, these stars performing, has convinced some people that there is perhaps too much emphasis being placed on it, that-this is something that Arthur and I talked about in our interview-that perhaps there is too much emphasis on athletics in the black community, a-, and we're losing a sense of balance for a lot of these kids, who may just put all their eggs in that one basket, and come up short, so to speak. Do you think there's m-, an overemphasis-as, as you move around the country, do you think that people perhaps are pushing black kids too often into the direction of athletics, perhaps neglecting some other areas of development?

I totally agree with Arthur. I worked with him on his project for the academic incentive thing that th-, he was trying to do in schools around the country, and I agree with him on that completely. There's too much emphasis placed there, and then it's reinforced by everything you see in the media and read in the sports pages. An athlete like Edwin Moses doesn't get much notice, yet he's darn near Ph.D. I think he's got his Master's in physics and going on his Ph.D. He's a very brilliant man, and kids don't understand that. They just know that he runs the hurdles real well. [Note: Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

And, th-, they don't get the opportunity to, to appreciate that.

Come back to that part. We-

Cut.

-have one more?

Yes.

OK. There's one more roll-

Three fifty-seven.

OK.

I think black athletes who are capable scholars don't really get the publicity that they should get in the black community. Obviously the, the community at large is not really that interested; they have scholars, and, bright people. But in our community, that does not always take place. Our scholars, and, and, and great minds don't get the publicity that they should get in order to give the children an incentive to follow in their footsteps. Someone can really, overnight, make millions of dollars by signing an athletic contract, whereas if you're gonna develop a, a, a new computer chip or work out a, a mathematical sequence that is a, considered a break-, breakthrough, you're not gonna, nobody's gonna know about it, and that's, that's a big problem, because the kids only see the easy way. They don't see the, the sure way. You can use your mind your whole life; you can't use your body in all cases competitively past your thirty-fifth or fourtieth birthday. So it's a, it's a, there's a big difference there that children need to understand, and be guided in. And unfortunately they don't get that guidance un-, until it's too late.

I had a conversation a few years ago with George McGinnis when he was also still playing in Philadelphia. And I asked him, as part of the interview, I asked him if he knew guys in the NBA who had sons they th-, who he thought would grow up to be, to be ball players. And he reflected for a moment, and he said you know, I, I really don't think so. He said, one, I don't think they're gonna have the hunger for this, that we've had. And I'm wondering if part of his answer means that the sons and daughters of the group of men you've come through athletics with may in fact be ready to produce a very special group of scholars, because opportunities for education, for example, wi-; or opportunities for travel, opportunities for certain kinds of spiritual development will be there, that perhaps haven't been available in the previous generation of black people, so that the doctors, the lawyers, the engineers that I think Arthur has spoken about, have come alo-, he expects to come along, may be coming out of this gene pool. Maybe daughters of champions and sons of champions are gonna produce that new race of people. What do you think?

Well, I, I, certainly am doing my part. [laughs]] I have four children, and I encourage them academically all the time. And I don't put any pressure on them athletically. They can pursue whatever they wanna pursue. I always get on them to maintain their academics, because that's the most important thing. And I think that they, they understand that. Now, it, I tell them, and they've, understand that it doesn't hurt to, to want to be involved in competitive sports. I think it's a great thing for them, especially as far as their physical maintenance. I think that's something that they should do. But it has a place, and it has, it, it shouldn't have one hundred percent of our attention. It should only have a certain percentage of our attention. And once the, the young people understand that, I think that they can definitely make more strides as far as becoming a, a well-rounded human being.

Let's, let's talk a little bit now about your championship career and on who you-sort of telescope backwards. You were, of course, always taller than most of the kids your age as you were growing up, and I guess people sort of pulled you literally by the arm into basketball, and said, hey, you just can't be that big and not play ball. Was there a point at which you said to yourself, regardless of the expectations of other people, or the, or the desire for other people to make me into something, I wanna be a champion, I wanna be something special in, in this game. Did that happen to you anywhere? Were you consciously aware of it occurring to you at some point?

Well, nobody made me play basketball. There are a lot of things that I, that I did. I did everything, actually. My, my grade school had a, a couple of sports teams. I played on everything that they had. I was, I ran track in the spring; I played, well, I played little league baseball; and then in the fall I play sand lot football and I play basketball and that w-, it was just a, a year-round thing for me. I, I just loved athletics. And my family just let me get involved. They always emphasized, though, that I should try to make the honor roll; and I made the honor roll consistently when I was in grade school. Only made it once in high school. [laughs] But by the time I got to high school, I, basketball had become a career for me. I knew it was gonna pay the bills, et cetera. So I started to pursue that.

Did you think, did you think it, of it in those terms? Did you think, well, hey, this is a career line for me? I can really start thinking now in high school, of building a life for myself around this game? I'm trying really to find the center of something else. I think there is also a somewhere in all of that, in all the practical assumption, maybe the somewhat lofter [sic] assumption again about championships, and being there at a point, even for a moment, just to be able to say, hey, this is the best there is. This is as high as you can go.

I remember watching Loyola Chicago when the NC2A-I said, I wanna do that, I got a good chance to do that; and if I go to the right college, I can do that. But already at that point-w-, I, I think I was a freshman in high school, I knew I was gonna go to college, w-, because I was gonna get a basketball scholarship. I knew that already. And that was a goal, and I said, jeez, I don't have to pay anything to go to college; that's great. And that, that's all it was. And of course as my high school career unfolded, and I made All-America, I knew that it would probably involve the pros. But or-, originally, it was just a, a way to get my tuition paid for, for college.

I wonder if you'd talk about the biggest incentive for you going to UCLA. Young kid, you're gonna go three thousand miles away from home, totally different environment, I think, from what you grew up in, you know. What really was the clincher in going out there?

I think I wanted to get that far away so I could be on my own. I was tired of parental supervision, and I thought I was a man; and I was ready to make a man's decisions, so let me get away from my folks wh-, so that they can't be watching me all the time. And that's probably why I went so far.

Talk to us about your relationship with John Wooden when you were at UCLA. I, we've listened to a lot of people talk about the, the influence of his basketball mind on, on their development. What precisely does that mean?

Well, he has the game broken down into very simple and fundamental little modules c-, so to speak, and he believes in total preparation; and he believes that if you prepare yourself for what you have to face, that you can overcome all the odds, if you, if you want to win. And that's what he taught everybody. He said, if you apply that to your life, you'll also be a winner in the things that you try to accomplish with your life. It's the same situation, and he was right. 'Course, that's a little bit too subtle for most college students who are more interested in girls and success, and you name it. But my relationship wis- h-, with him was was very, was very educational, and I learned a lot from him as far as win-, what winning was about and how to win. There are a lot of different ways to win, and he w-, has always been a class individual. A whole lot of successful people don't have class. You know, they're very successful but they have very little class, and he to me is the epitome of somebody that, whether in victory or defeat, he was very gracious and t-, always showed a lot of class. I, I have a lot of respect for him in, in that respect.

In 1968, you made a, a very significant, very important decision, and that was to support the boycott of the Olympics; a decision some people criticized you for; it was a decision I think you made yourself, and were willing to take whatever flack or consequence came out of it. Looking back now-it's, it'll be twenty years soon. How do you reflect on that decision?

I'm, I'm still very proud of my involvement in that. There was no boycott, as you know, but I did support the concept of a boycott because of, the Olympics is most definitely a political, well, semi-political event. If it were not political, they, they wouldn't have any national flags up and they just let the athletes of the world compete, but that's impossible. We, politics is one of the facts of life in the twentieth century and the Olympics is most definitely a political event. I'm, I'm very proud of Tommy Smith and, and John Carlos and those guys for taking the stand that they did. They suffered for it; they paid for it; and I think black people benefitted from it. I think it was the type of thing that people around the world respected because the, we were not firebrands, we were not talking about burning anything down or, or any type of destruction, but we did call attention to the, to the inconsistencies of, of life here in, in America, and I think that that g-, got us a lot of respect. That, that was probably the, the height of my political activity, but I'm still, I, I'm happy I did it and I have no regrets about it.

Could we cut for a moment?

Cut.

Vinnie-

Slate it, please.

Three fifty-eight.

OK.

I talked a few years ago with Ornette Coleman and he said that one of the things he found about basketball similar to his own art was that it gave the soloist an opportunity to function and to flourish, actually, within the ensemble concept. Is there any-I know you pursue the, the music art. Do you ever feel that relationship? Is there anything to that?

Absolutely. I think that you can definitely express yourself as a, as an individual when you play basketball; and it, the fact that it's a team sport mean that, means that you do have to work with other people, but every individual has something unique to give to the game and we see that all the time.

Is it a rhythym game? I've heard Armond Hill, who was playing then for the Hawks, tell me that he felt that, that guards in the NBA were like the drummers in a, in a band; that they sort of establish the, and really maintain the tempo. Is that, is there any truth in that?

I think so. I think that teams, when they're, when they're going well, they, they have their own pace and their own tempo and they have their own special kind of flourish that only they, that group can make happen on the court. I think that's one of the wonderful things about the game-to see certain individuals come together and, and what they can do as a unit.

You played, of course, with Oscar Robertson in, at, at Milwaukee, and-one of the premier guards in the league in just this regard, in establishing, maintaining the tempo for, for a game. I wonder if you'd talk a little bit about that experience. You did win a championship with that team, and I wonder if there was some, some moments in that season. I know you've talked about them in a couple of articles and things, 'specially-I wonder if you'd describe some of that experience for us now.

Well, that [laughs], that was long ago and far away, kind of. And it's hard to remember everything, except one of things that does stick out is the fact that the ease in which we did it. We won four straight from the, from the Bullets, and I, it, it's very rare that happens in, in championship play. I was very proud of that.

With your current team-three championships if I, if I can recall correctly?

Mmm-hmm.

Seasons of championship play. Because I think in being a champion you're not just talking about the usual, win the ring. It's the, it's the competition, it's the level and the style of the game that you're playing year after year. Maybe you would talk about any things that particularly stand out for you in these seasons that you've spent in Los Angeles and perhaps even more to the point with this current crop of players you're with now.

I think my own personal development really is the thing that has happened in my life that I'm most pleased with. It's helped me in my public image, and I guess the way people perceive me, but it doesn't have that much to do with basketball, although people do see differences in my game. I just think that learning how to deal with who I am and accepting myself and allowing myself to be known by the public has really helped me a lot, and I think that's, that's what I'm most pleased about in these, these past couple of years.

In these years, have, you've seen yourself changing, or have you seen the public change in regard to you? Have you had to work to develop certain things in your, in, in yourself that you thought perhaps were there, needed to be, needed to be brought out, particularly by you, not because of the influence of others or because of the influence of your being a public figure?

I think the fact that I've matured and have learned how to deal with the public. I didn't deal with them very, very well. I didn't have any real strong will to deal with the public daily. It just was a hassle. I'm a lot more patient and understanding now, and I think people see that and they like me a lot more, and it kinda snowballs.

In the work that you do, is there something you would say to people who are gonna be looking at you this season, or looking at this game. Is there something perhaps that you feel the public doesn't pay enough attention to in, in, in the sphere in which you operate? Are there things perhaps you read about in the papers or senses that you get from people's reaction, that perhaps there's something in, in your game, in ball, that ought to be understood a little bit better, by, perhaps by the press, perhaps by the people who watch the game.

I don't, I don't know. I think the game is pretty well, pretty well exposed. I think that as the public becomes a little bit more sophisticated in the nuances of the game, that they'll appreciate it more but I, I for the most part, people understand basketball because it's an American game and just about everyone in this country, whether they are male or female, old or young, at one point in their life has thrown the ball at the hoop just one time. If it was only in PE class when you're in the eleventh grade, you've done it once and everybody seems to be able to relate like that.

One more question in that area. Is there a regional difference in this understanding? Do people in different parts of the United States understand the game better? Are there, are there areas, for example, where people are already perhaps a little more sophisticated about basketball [unintelligible]?

I think in the, in the inner cities, especially here on the east, basketball is like very deeply ingrained into the, into the lifestyle of everybody-just the whole thing of there not being a lot of room and a, a basketball court can be, can be set up just about anywhere. A half court can be set, can be set up against any wall, just about; and you know the kids in the inner city, they, they go at it. Out in Indiana where, where John Wooden is from, it's, it's, it, there's a different, totally different ambiance, but it's the same game; and I think that's one of the great things about the game. It, it flourishes in different environments, among diff-, different ethnic groups, and it, it, it makes for a, a very exciting and diverse type of game.

You said a moment ago-and I thought y-, you said very well-that you've, you, you've felt that these past few years had contributed enormously to your, your personal development, and that that was something that you remember about this time. Is there anything in the game itself, is there a moment or a, a time or period in the game as you've participated that particularly stands out in your mind, that you'd want to remember ten, fifteen, twenty years from now; that you'd want other people to remember?

Well, I think this past season when we overcame the, the great bugaboo o-, that the Lakers had established against the Celtics, you know, losing all the time, and we managed to, to turn that around. I think that kinda transcended even sports. It's just like the team that you always knew could win finally came through in, in the toughens-, toughest of circumstances; and people really appreciated that and got behind that. And it was on a level that, you know, really went beyond just normal basketball fans. People who aren't basketball fans saw it and, and were really entertained and they got some of the joy out of it; and I, I think that's w-, what has made the season probably my most rewarding in my pro career.

How would you finish the sentence, for us that began with the words-and I'd appreciate if you would say the words-to be a champion?

To be a champion means to give your best and to strive for the top.

Cut.

OK.