-time. Actually, I used to work with someone who was chronically late. So, I suggested that whenever she got there, we should just turn the clock to nine o'clock and then she'd be on time. And it worked very well, until she quit, but it was an attempt. What we're gonna talk about today is the ways in which the first Eyes on the Prize series has been used in the classroom. And there's no doubt in my mind that there are some of you out here who could easily sit up here and that will be fine. And for our next conference, I hope you'll tell us who you are so that you can. What we try to do is identify through a project that Blackside has had ongoing, to find out the ways in which the Eyes on the Prize material has been used and to bring a couple of teachers who've used it at different age levels together so that we can have a chance to talk about the ways teachers have used it to answer questions. And I also hope people out here who've had successes would be able to talk a little bit about what they found to be most helpful. There's one panel member who I don't see, Maureen Fleury. Is she here perhaps? She works at the Old Colony Correctional Institution. She was supposed to be here. We hope that she'll be here later. She may be lost. Let me introduce the rest of the people on the panel. And we'll start over here, Ron Bennett teaches in Boston at the Martin Luther King School in Dorchester. He previously taught at the Mackie School. And he has put together a lot of material that he uses along with the Eyes on the Prize material and he's...teaches at the middle school level. Next to him also who has taught at the middle school level for the most part is Daryl Durham, who's a student program specialist with the Newton METCO program. The course he taught was at Day Junior High in Newton and his students, we hope to see on video behind me. I feel like the Wizard of Oz. This is actually very helpful. Only needs a little smoke and it'll be terrific. Esther Kattef, who's sitting on this side teaches at the elementary level, the Edward Devotion Public School in Brookline. I always make sure I say Edward Devotion Public School at Brookline because everyone figures when it's devotion school, it must be some sort of parochial. But it's a public school in Brookline. She uses Eyes I as part of her curriculum that she uses with the fifth graders on social responsibility. And we are... we spared no expense on getting Esther because she's recently come from a panel for the, for a workshop and conference done by the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War that was held in Hiroshima. So, we figured she could go to Hiroshima, she could come to Medford.

But I didn't have to park.

That's right. You didn't have to park in Hiroshima though. Barbara Howard is actually the only one here who has a wide view of what's happened because she spent a, a part of the year interviewing teachers who've used Eyes material. And Barbara has worked on a report that will be issued by Blackside about the uses of Eyes on the Prize. Barbara has also worked as a reporter for NPR, CBC, the BBC and she's the winner of a Peabody Award. And sitting next to Barbara is Linda Nathan who teaches at the high school level. And she's taught in the Boston public schools for over a decade at both the middle and the high school and she's used Eyes on the Prize with her high school students in the Fenway Program at Boston English High. Perhaps the best way to start is to start with Ron. And what I'm gonna do as facilitator is time people and make sure they don't go too long because I want everyone to have a chance to ask questions at the end and also to raise suggestions of their owns. So, once Ron tanks up with some water, we'll let him talk. It's coming out of your time, Ron. This is the mic.

Oh, OK. My worst fears have now been confirmed.

[laughs]

So, I can go on from here. My name is Ron Bennett and as Steve said, I work at the Martin Luther King School. This is my first year teaching at the Martin Luther King School and a new adventure in doing my program, presenting my program to my students which is called "Make the Prize Come Alive." It's a program now. It wasn't a program before. It was something that I did in my classroom. It was a very important piece in my classroom. I was invited here to talk about what I do and I think because I have used Eyes on the Prize so extensively, that I was, I guess, cited as a person that would be good to have here. I'd just like to say that from what I just viewed in the other, the other viewing room is that I almost...I would really like to talk if I had the time, about what I'm going to do when I use Eyes on the Prize II and not what I've done for the past three years. And I hope that people come here with that spirit of what they're going to do when they leave here and how they're going to use the information and how they're going to use the materials and how they're going to benefit from the, the people that are here making these presentations. That said, there's a lot to talk about in terms of the history but I have to make it very brief. I started the program in 1987, my first year in the Boston Public School system realizing that nothing was being done around or in celebration of Dr. King's birthday or very little at that that was being done, to say the least. So, little by little, I began by using the Prize because I had seen it. It was the first year it came out and the first year it was presented to the public. And I became so inspired by it but I, that I knew instinctively that it really, it really had to be done. I couldn't think about how I was going to use it. I couldn't think about when. I just had to use it. I'd like to give an overview of my program. I'll read this from my program overview that I disseminate among teachers that I train to implement the same type of program in the classroom. This has been made possible by a grant that I received from the Impact II-Teachers Network in Boston. So, I would like to begin by thanking them. [clears throat] [reads] The purpose and objective of the program is that students witness change and growth within the framework of our national laws as embodied by the constitution of the United States. In doing the program, what I've come up with and I have, what I've understood is that beyond Rosa Parks and Dr. King, students know little about the civil rights movements of the 1960s. Through the use of video, selected readings, discussion and essay writing, they learned the history of that movement along with how the constitution is shaped by the Supreme Court's landmark decisions for example Brown v. Board of Education. They are introduced to people's struggle of their civil and human rights is guaranteed by the constitution primarily through viewing and discussing the award-winning documentary Eyes on the Prize. The film is supplemented by workbook type assignments and add to their sense of the movement. Essay writing lets them parallel their personal experiences with program concepts and events. The material generates discussion of civil rights issues that are still at the center of national debate. Students research actual civil rights questions and present orally relevant articles from newspapers and magazine articles. Confidence in written and oral expression grows as students incorporate their own life stories with the Prize. If I didn't mention it before, the name of the program that I, the title that I came up with to do this particular project with teachers is called "Make the Prize Come Alive." And a packet has been developed with program materials that outline some of the activities and some of the ideas that I've generated over the years of doing, over the years that I've done this program. I think the last line really sums it up because it is a matter of incorporating this information, this material with the lives of my students. And in fact, the program as it stands has come from them. It has come from their input to what they have seen, what they have read and the discussions that they've had with each other. We approach things that they understand as important, that they contribute and that they relate to in their own lives while viewing Eyes on the Prize and while reading other materials related to Eyes on the Prize. There is a poem that I use by Langston Hughes and I think many of you know the poem already. And if you don't, I'll recite it for you. [reads] Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly. Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams go, life is about for...Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams go, life is a barren field frozen with snow. This is a piece that my students recite, they talk about, they discuss, they come to identify what their dreams are while viewing the Prize, while reading Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech. They learn to or I should say, they express what it is that they're looking for in their own lives and we finish the exercise by children writing their essays, their dream essays. And the first year we did it, we did a very, very nice display and that was entitled We Have a Dream and there was artwork that went along with it to depict what their dreams were. Poetry also. Children wrote poetry about what their dreams were and how they saw the prizes affecting them and helping them toward their dreams. An important piece of the program is centered around oral history. The Eyes on the Prize is an exercise in oral history. It's an exercise where people come together and they relate their experiences in the movement and they tell about what it is that happened to them. And I think that's an important thing for students to see. They're not just looking at important figures such as Dr. King or Rosa Parks. They're also looking at people much like themselves or their parents, their community members. In fact, people that may or probably were involved in the movement. The questions that they bring to the classroom really inspire subsequent activities. They really bring the thread that puts it all together. I've had students ask about for instance, Where were Hispanic people? Spanish, Hispanic students in my classroom have been very concerned about where Hispanic people were during this period in history, if they were involved, how, how were they discriminated against. And we use that, those, those kinds of questions to direct that energy back to them to bring those questions home to their families, to have them interview their families and to have them discuss what it is that they are, that they have found out and what it is that they've been able to get from those conversations with their family members and their community members. And also, an opportunity to exchange ideas with the community members about what the dreams...what their dreams are and how far they can go with their dreams. Basically, those are the two biggest pieces of the civil rights program that I do in the classroom. There have been materials that have come seemingly out of nowhere when people have found out that I'm involved in this and that my students are involved in this. They've brought pieces to me or I've met somebody who knew somebody who was doing something around the civil rights movement. And so, through this, I've been able to accumulate materials that I, that I use regularly, that I use a lot in my classroom and there's always more things to be used. One of the things that I have used and that is a real nice way to introduce Eyes on the Prize is by showing them a, a very short video called the Civil Rights Rap. And I'm sure you're probably aware of that video. If people are not aware of that video, it's available through the Children's Museum here in Boston. That's one place I know where you can get it. What it does is it introduces some of the ideas and...I should say some of the people and through rapping up three vignettes. The story of Linda Brown versus the Board of Education, Rosa Parks and the bus boycott and the student sit-ins of the 1960s. This is a piece where students if they're not aware of these particular events, have a chance to discuss them and, and do research around those particular things before we see Eyes on the Prize. The actual viewing...two more minutes and I'll be through. The actual viewing, what they get from the actual viewing that I have found is that they really focus on the things that are relevant to them, they really focus on the things that are about them. And they look at the people, that they, they really get into the people that that they can identify with. Emmett Till, they are at an age when, they are at the age where Emmett, when Emmett was killed. They are about thirteen or fourteen years old for the most part. They can...they, they have that fear of dying and they see death and they see violence around them and it's an important thing for them, them to talk about and for them to relate to. And they do, you know, they do realize that this is a, a child that, that had his dreams ended. Whatever dreams, whatever, whatever aspirations he had were, were ended all of a sudden for, for something that they really are not sure of. It, it wasn't, it wasn't over drugs, it wasn't over some of the things that they've experienced in their lives in terms of direct violence. But they...and they bring so much to coming to understand, you know, what happens there. Identification with Mose Wright to get over that fear of speaking to people and to speaking up for yourself. That's an, an issue that we, that we discuss and they also write stories about those people. And they do role-playing around those characters, around those figures in the, in the, in the film. Basically, I feel that the, the experience of doing this particular program has introduced so much information to the people that I've worked with and to myself. And the feelings that have come out of working with the students have been, have just been incredible. I feel that students need to see what is going on and what it has gone on before them and tie those things together and I feel that we need to do that as educators. We always walk in with an agenda and we have that hidden agenda. They're never quite sure what it is we're going to be having them do that, this particular day. And when you come into the classroom and you try to tap into their experiences by developing materials that relate to those experiences, I think you've done a credit to your students. You've done a great service to your students and a credit to yourself. So, I'd like to encourage you all to make the prize come alive. Thank you.

Thank you, Ron.

Why don't we just continue. Darryl.

OK. My name is Darryl Durham and as Steve said, I am the Student Program Specialist with the Newton METCO Program. Last year, I was working at Day Junior High School teaching a course which is an African American awareness course. And the teachers, basically the teachers and myself and the fac, the administration of the school decided that there was a need for this type of course because the year before or two years ago basically, I made a video of a group of students, group of Black students, both METCO and Newton resident students at the school. And all I was doing was basically asking them some questions about their experience in the school, about being in a situation where they were minorities and they were in a predominantly White society and White situation not only coming from the Boston school area and going to a predominantly White community but also just because the numbers of the school, numbers of students in the school were very small. And some very interesting things came out of this video in that the biggest complaint that the kids had was that they didn't know anything about their own history. What struck me as being very ironic is that they said, We know about Greek history. We can tell you about Roman history. We can tell you about American history but in American history, there's nothing about, about our people. That no one ever talks about what Black people have done. All we know about American history is that we were slaves and that, that's about it. So, I showed this, this video to the faculty and I wasn't really sure what type of response I was gonna get because I know that sometimes it's difficult for people to, to have to face these things. And the kids were very honest with me. I wanted them to be extremely honest with me because I wanted to set up a situation where they would be relaxed and that they would be able to really express themselves, which they did. Out of it, the course was developed. And I came into the course, as Ron said, you go into a course with an agenda. I came into the course with a set agenda. I brought in material on, on people in African, African American history and I wanted the kids to go to the library and also to work like that. The first day of the course, the kids looked at me like I was crazy. They said, Oh, we didn't think that this was gonna be work. We thought this was gonna be fun. So, I suddenly realized that if I was gonna accomplish my goal, which was to teach the children about African American history and I should rather say American history, and still make it interesting for them and make it worthwhile for them, then I had to change my direction as far as what I was doing with them. And I'd noticed over the years in working with kids throughout the system that they were really into...well, for lack of any other term, I would call up to date multimedia type of things. VCRs, different types of music, rap music, different things like that. The kids really attach themselves to these things and I saw this as a means of education for the students. So, what I decided we would do is that I would allow them to use whatever medium they wanted to, to learn about African American history. I was willing to give a little bit as long as they were willing to give a little bit. And what we decided to do with the course was that we were gonna work on the civil rights period. A couple of the problems that I had initially, and I think that a lot of times because the African American experience in this country to African Americans is so negative, we, we really do. And I remember growing up myself seeing images of African Americans as only slaves or the negative images of the African Americans in the movies as, as the, the waiters or, or the maids or something like that. That when you start talking about slavery or you start talking about civil rights period to the kids, they immediately shut off because they feel so negative about that. They feel very insecure and they don't feel that there's anything that their race has done that they can be proud of. And so, my goal was to show them that, that they shouldn't believe what they see in the media and that there are things that they can be proud of about their race and that there's a way in which they can learn. So, we decided that what we would do is we would take rap music and that we would take videos and that the kids would work on skits and different things like that to talk about African American history. What we did was I broke the kids up into different groups. They decided what they wanted to do. What, what was the most important thing or what was the most fun thing for them to do. And in the process of using the thing that was fun for them, I also gave them a specific goal with that. For example, there are some students who did a rap about the civil rights period and about African American history and I gave them specific topics. I told them to research those topics and then to come up with a rap which basically would have some information about those topics built into it. And I'm not, I'm not sure if this is the time that we should go into that or if you wanna do that? OK, we've got a tape that it's basically a rough copy of a tape that we did for a television performance. The television show, Ready to Go last year during Black History month. The first thing that we have queued up is a rap by two students from the school which has to do with African American history. [pause] Am I directly in the way?

Maybe, I don't know.

One, two, three. [raps] Listen up chronic people, we are free at last. But there's some things to remember from the past. A lot of great leaders have come and gone. But they know their memory still lives long. Martin Luther King Jr., he had a dream. But do you really know what history means. Harriet Tubman, she was born a slave. She was a kindly Black woman and she was brave. George Washington Carver made the peanut great so any man with the rhyme could create. Now, you know Gandhi do you remember his face but you know he was a credit to the human race. He believed in non-violence and freedom for all.

My name is Jarod. [phonetic]

My name is Jamal and that's the history lesson for you all. Peace.

OK. The next segment. All right, the next segment that you're gonna see is another group of kids that we had working...OK, they're talking about the sit-in movement.

-Mr. Charlie.

They walked right into Woolworths and sat right down on the White folks' fountain.

They did. Sat the White folks fountain. I could not believe it.

They sure did. Saw it on television myself. My, were those folks upset. They did them terrible.

What happened. What did they do?

You know they didn't like it one bit. They did all sorts of things to those young people. Spilt hot coffee on them. Burned them with cigarettes. You know how bad the peckerwoods is over there.

They is about as bad as the ones here.

The police came in and arrested them too. Drag them up, kicking and all that.

My, my. I don't know what's getting into these kids.

Whatever it is, it's about time. Those folks have been treating us wrong for too long.

They leave us alone, we leave them alone. That's what I feel about it. No sense in stirring up more trouble than there already is.

Young kids is these days is smarter than we were. They're not gonna get stepped on like us. That they're gonna stick up for their rights.

They're gonna make it harder. They're just gonna make a mess of trouble.

You won't catch me going into any White folks' fountain. No, sir. I'm too old for that now.

I just hope they don't come over here and try that stuff.

You like going to kitchen doors to get your meals? Drinking from dirty fountains while those White folks have nice clean ones?

We had our place. We don't have to go where we're not wanted.

They won't let us vote. Treat us like dirt.

I remember what happened big man over in Belzoni when he tried to register. Found him in the river. They beat him bad and threw him in the river.

Well, I just hope that doesn't happen over here.

[clears throat] Excuse me. I'm Gail Jones and I work with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

Aren't you one of those kids from over in Shelbyville?

Yes. I go to the college there.

Were you in that demonstration of the day over at Woolworths?

No, but they're members of our group.

I saw how they was mistreating you kids on television.

Mm-hmm.

I hope everybody's all right.

Yes. Everybody's out of jail now.

Well, what are you doing over here? You ain't fixing to start more trouble, are you?

We don't start any trouble. We just want equal rights for all people. The trouble's already here.

Well, you know what I mean.

We want to integrate public facilities here. We're holding a meeting tonight at Ebenezer Church, seven o'clock.

Well, what are you gonna do at the meeting?

We want people to go with us tomorrow and sit at the lunch counter at Woolworths.

Oh, Lord.

We want people to go to the meeting tonight so they can understand what we're doing and why we're doing it.

Oh. I just might come.

Good. How about you other folks?

Not me. I'm not getting mixed up in that mess.

Somebody has to take up the equal rights and if you don't, who will?

He don't believe in equal rights.

That's not true. I believe in equal rights. I just don't wanna see any more trouble stirred up.

Unfortunately, that's just the way things are. Someone's always gonna try and knock you down.

I just don't believe you should go where you're not wanted.

Why don't you face it, you're just scared?

I ain't scared. I ain't letting nobody push me around.

Yes you are.

If someone hits me, I'm gonna hit him right back.

Yeah, that'll be the day.

We don't believe in that. You can't win using violence. They have the guns and the nightsticks. We don't. We can't win using violence.

Lord, I'm certainly with you. But I'm too old to be hit over the head by the police.

I understand but please come to the meeting tonight anyway. I have to go now but I hope to see you all at the meeting. Don't forget, Ebeneezer's Church. seven o'clock, and bring your friends.

You always have an attitude.

Just tell me.

Earlier in English, Miss Thomas told us we had a report due. So, I decided to ask if it could be on Black History month and all the kids turned and looked.

Don't you hate that? Yesterday, I was watching this TV show on Channel 7 and it spoke about the sit-ins in the sixties.

That was some tough stuff.

You know it. But you know, it didn't only involve Blacks. It also involved Whites.

Seriously? I thought it was only Blacks?

No.

Well, some of the kids in this school need to realize how we feel when they look at us like we're stupid when we say some ethnic remark about holidays and so forth.

You're right. We should help them realize that.

Yeah. By the way, what's that thing called, SNCC?

Oh, SNCC, that's the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

What'd they do?

Well, that was a group of Black and White students who organized sit-ins and protests and things like that to make the South a better place.

Oh, so, I see. It was Black and White.

Yes. That's what I said.

Well, thanks for clearing that up for me. I really appreciate it. Bye.

Anytime.

[sings] Here's a little story about Rosa Parks. Like most Black examples, she played her part but there was one incident that happened on the bus. She was just tired, didn't wanna make no fuss. They threw her in jail like she was bad and that's what made the Black community mad. They fought and fought until they won and then the civil rights movement had begun.

[raps] Now, you know, Dr. King, they shot him down. But like most kings, he shall wear a crown. Some leaders come and some leaders go, but Martin Luther King shall forever know.

All right. So, that's basically the way that we had the kids set up the presentation-

-if, if I had the opportunity...or actually, I shouldn't say if but when I do it again, I think that one of the things I want to do is try to encourage more of the White students at the school to get involved with this type of activity. I feel it's important. It was important for me to really have the kids understand that it wasn't just a movement that involved Black people. And one of the questions that I asked the kids in class at the initial stage was why they felt when the civil rights movement in this country started...actually when the civil rights movement of this country started, the movement in South Africa also started or basically was, they were a lot of the same type of activities going on at the same time. And I asked the kids why they felt that in this particular country, Black people were able to make more advancements than in South Africa and especially when you considered the fact that there were, were a larger majority of Whites in this country than in South Africa where the Blacks are the majority. And one of the issues that was brought up was the fact that there were a large number of White people in the country who supported the civil rights movement whereas in South Africa, that was not the case and nowadays we're beginning to see that as the case but it's taking such a long period of time. And so, it's important for me to have the kids to understand that this was not just a Black issue. This was an issue that really has been going on since the times of slavery with the abolitionists. And I was able to accomplish my particular goal because I had the material that I wanted the kids to really go through. I was able to bring it into the classroom because that was the material that they used for the research. And in a way, I'm not sure if they really realize it or if they did realize it and just didn't tell me but they were really learning what I wanted them to learn but they were learning it in a manner in which it was more accessible to them because it became more exciting and more interesting for them to learn in this particular manner. I think one of the things that also helped me is that I'm...the, the title that I have with the Newton METCO program is Program Specialist. That sort of covers a lot of things. I served as a counselor in the school at one point and I'm also, I served as a, as a music teacher at one of the schools. So, I have a background in the arts and it was, it was able, I was able rather, to use the medium because I was familiar with it. But I think that it's important for teachers to understand that this type of stuff is accessible for anyone. Anyone knows how to use a VCR, anyone knows how to use a camera and if you don't know, it's really very simple to use that material. And that the kids themselves, I just threw it out there, the kids came up with them with the, with the information. And I think that also helped them ingrain it because it wasn't me sitting there teaching per se. I, I would edit things for them or I would start a discussion. I would say, Do you really think that that's how it happened or what do you base that on? And then they would refer back to the information that they had, had studied or learned about. So, it was, it was the type of situation where I wasn't standing in front of the classroom lecturing to them from a book. The, the history became alive to them and therefore, made it easier for them to understand. So, that's basically what we did in the past and what we're continuing to do. This morning, we had a presentation at one of the elementary schools, An Evening of African-American, African-American theater is what we're working on. This particular group has evolved into another group now which is the African-American Theater Research Project, which is based upon the same idea in that we find specific information from African-American history we've researched that information and then the kids develop their own skits around that information and we take it to the schools to present it to the other students. This morning's skits dealt with a piece that was written by Inez M. Burke, who was a playwright in the twenties that was titled Two Races. And basically, it dealt with the fact that there were two kids who...one of which who, who knew nothing about the accomplishments of her race and she was an African American. And so, basically, we were able to, through the skit, tell the kids about the accomplishments of African Americans. Obviously, we had to bring it up to date to make it even more relevant to the kids. The second skit was a civil rights skit in which we used some of the material that you just saw and we used it with video cameras as well as stage works. And then the final skit was a skit that had to do with gang violence. And obviously, that's a problem in the community and it's a problem that, that a lot of us are being touched by now and it's a problem the kids really wanted to work with on their own. After, after they did the skit, all the kids came out and they sat down in front of the stage and we had a question-and-answer period with the kids in the audience. And the audience that we were dealing with this morning were fifth and sixth graders. So, you can imagine the questions that they had for the students on stage. And it was, it was a wonderful experience because the kids become peer leaders and there's a lot of, of understanding and leadership that they begin to internalize and a lot of leadership that, that is developed because of this type of, of a situation. And I sort of feel like I'm stealing the thunder from them because quite honestly, it was so easy for me to do this. It was easier than it would have been if I had sat up in front of the classroom and lectured to the kids. And it was, it was really a lot easier than, than a lot of people may realize but it was so effective because the kids as I said, they internalized the information and they really began to understand what was going on during that period and they could bring it up to date and have it relate to what's going on at, at this time period. So, that's what we've been doing. Thank you.

Thank you, Darryl. Esther teaches at the fifth-grade level. So, it's a natural segue.

Thanks for that setup. I was going to say that I teach those fifth graders who so much appreciate the, the role models of older kids and, and adults. It's not easy talking to young children about controversial issues of any kind. And I began to think about how you do that. And that may sound like a, a simple and naive remark. But I realized when I was trying to think about and teach issues about of peace and homelessness, drugs, segregation, prejudice, that it isn't enough to, to teach it. That in fact, you need to create the environment in your classroom where kids live the ideals and the values that you want to get across. I thought about how many times we want our kids to be peaceful. And I mean, I don't remember anybody ever saying, Fight. I don't remember anybody ever saying, Take drugs. But kids take drugs and kids fight. So, it isn't enough to be dogmatic and to just teach peace or teach not to be prejudiced. So, I began to look a lot at the environment in the classroom and methodology and really honed in on both of those things and decided that what really needed to be done. And I've said this before in one of the discussion groups, is that we needed, I needed to create a space in the room or, or the room had to be a place where it was safe to have conflict, to raise questions, to disagree and to voice an opinion that might be contrary to what you think the teacher wants or what someone else wants in the room. And also, to teach kids, not what to think but how to think and that's something that I had said before in a discussion group. And that's really hard for those of us who, who know that racism is wrong. Nazis, the whole Nazi period was wrong. It isn't enough to say that and it isn't enough to just teach the ills of, of, of the nuclear bomb. How do you get kids to internalize and to, and to buy in and to have it be their own agenda? And in Eyes, which is one of the controversial issues we discuss, it's one of the, the case studies that's used, we talk about a few main themes. One of the main themes is choice, the issue of choice. What, what were the choices that were made and why did some people choose to act and others not and what makes the difference between people who act and people who don't? These are things that are really interesting to young children. Another main theme is change and it's connected to choice because how is change made and who's responsible for change? And the whole idea of small courage versus grand courage that was talked about this morning. And the other area that is really exciting for kids and that they can barely stand in Eyes on the Prize is the whole idea of nonviolent protest. It is a totally foreign idea to kids growing up today. They have absolutely no experience with nonviolent protest. They have no perspective on it. And these three...there are many other themes that come up but these three main themes occur and reoccur. The other theme that's often talked about in a much more hopeless way is the way the government and the police force, the security force were the perpetrators here and for young children that's very, that's very scary. Because when you're in trouble, the ultimate person you go to was the policeman. And they were in fact, part of, part of the horror that was going on for Black people. So, that's another theme. Some of the, the quotes that kids have and the things that kids have said about Eyes, I thought would be important to share with you...what they end up emphasizing and feeling is important. And I brought some of their projects but it's hard to see them. It's not as nice as video and I can, I'll have them here. But I want to quote a couple of excerpts. The kids watched Eyes on the Prize in small bits and then got to choose the pieces that they wanted to write about for whatever reason it was that they thought was important. And this little girl was particularly impressed with the Birmingham bombing of the church and the four girls that were killed. And there was a connection there because one of the girls' parents in our room was the friend of one of the little girls who was in the bombing. And this girl writes: [reads] The thought of not being safe in your own church is horrible. You're praying to God to get freedom and peace but while you're praying, a bomb falls on you. This is public information. I saw it on TV but I have a very personal side of this story. I know a woman, her name is Annette Dillard. She's the mother of a friend in my class. She was the best friend of Denise, one of the girls that was killed. Annette was supposed to go with Denise to...and be picked up by Annette's mother but Denise had to stay and go to church. What if Denise had gone with Annette? She would be alive today. This shows that all these terrible things didn't happen in a far away country. They happened right here. The idea of personalizing things is...has been said, I think, throughout the day and for children, that's really important. It was more personalized because we had Annette Dillard but I think in general, there have been other classes where Annette wasn't able to come. The idea of, of kids being affected, the way they were used in marches and the whole idea of, of children being brave enough to, to protest is a powerful thing for young children. Another theme and a quote that has to do with choice has to do with the Emmett Till piece. And this one child really liked the Emmett Till piece because of Mose Wright and because of Emmett's mother and she liked it because Mose made a choice. She said: you know, [reads] When I saw him, he was old and I didn't even understand what he was saying and he was the one to get up in a courtroom with all Black-with all White people where Black people weren't even accepted. And he stood up there and he pointed to these people, to the, the defendants. And this child was very much impressed with that. And with Emmett Till's mother for deciding to have an open casket and let the world see what happened to Emmett Till. And she felt that that was the turning point for the civil rights movement and that it all hinged on a mother's decision to have an open casket. And I have had other classes that have been interested in that piece because they're, they're absolutely horrified by what happened to Emmett Till, but there are people who actually focus and children who actually focus in on the choices that were made by people in that part. Another...the other theme of nonviolent protest this child talks about: [reads] I picked this topic of people not fighting back. I picked it because I really admire the Blacks for not fighting back. I don't think I could have ever done that. Just sit there and do nothing if people were beating me up and worse still, if they were beating my friend up. Just think, White people did all those bad things to Black people just because of the color of their skin. And the bus boycott is another place where I was really interested in this whole idea of...we, we named the same heroes and heroines all the time. And this child said: [reads] I liked everything about that piece. I heard about Rosa Parks before and I thought she integrated the buses. And I realized that she started a movement that what I like most about it, was that all those people stuck together and when they cooperated, change took place. That was pretty impressive from a ten year old. I guess my experience with, with young children is that as we grow older, we become more pessimistic and we become, I think, more disempowered. Adolescents feel very disempowered in this society and as adults, many of us don't agree with the policies of this country and yet don't choose to vote. And I think it's our job as educators to harness the enthusiasm of young people and to start really early and to talk about empowerment, to talk about social responsibility and commitment and then to talk about action. And I think that kids will eventually act in situations where they have lived and really complicated their own thinking about issues and not just when they've been taught to do the right thing. And I have...that's all I have to say. I have these projects that you can look at later.

Thanks, Esther. Since, since Barbara has the whole overview, I think I'm gonna skip her so she can sum up at the end.

I do?

And let Linda go.

OK, I have to use this thing.

Sure. [laughs]

[inaudible] sorry. Really. I know why this is hard. OK. I guess like, like Ron and Darryl were talking about or I guess all of us are sort of saying it to some degree, I'm always amazed at how little knowledge our kids really bring, I guess little historical knowledge. They may have some kind of personal connection to the history that we're trying to teach but they don't really have any context. The civil rights is far away and it's kind of boring. I made the decision to do some theater work with, with my students before Eyes actually aired because I didn't want them to just watch it and turn the TV to another channel and watch, you know, whatever show they wanted to watch. I wanted to use both some improvisation from work that we were gonna do together and some actual primary source documents that were gonna be, you know, they were going to be part of the Eyes tapes because I felt that if they could use the real words of those historical figures, they would be less just historical figures, they would have actually had the chance to become some of those people. Similar to Darryl, I guess I felt that my main hurdle was, how do I deal in an interracial group where traditionally, I suppose on some level, only Black boys get to play Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks would always be a woman. And I just decided I was gonna do this little play regardless of race and gender and that the kids were going to decide by them...together, who best fit the part, who most wanted to be Bull Connor, who most wanted to be Diane Nash and we would work at it that way. The...you're gonna see two little vignettes and then I'll talk a little bit about it. You're gonna see one vignette, and it's a piece that goes together we had interspersed it with different poems and different kinds of things. But you're going to see one little vignette about Bull Connor and one of his henchmen, I guess, is the best word to use. And then you'll see an improv that they did planning a...well, you'll see it. And then we'll go backwards and, and you'll hear from Diane Nash. So, why don't we just see those and then I'll just talk a little bit. I guess we can move again.

-and they cared about you so much...

That's not where you wanna start though.

Besides Governor Wallace, the protesters also, had to deal with Bull Connor. Although he was no longer the Commissioner of Public Safety, he was still a dominant force in Birmingham and he had a say in it.

Whites and Blacks aren't gonna be segregated together. [laughs] Now, let me tell you about this so-called Negro movement. It's just a part of the attempt to take over our country by the lazy, the hippies, the ignorant and some misguided religious fanatics.

So, Bull, what do you do with all these protesters?

What do you think we're gonna do? We're gonna lock them up and show them a real dose of southern hospitality.

Is everything ready?

Yes. Everything is ready for the protest.

Did you get a lot of people?

Yes. But most people said it was too hard [unintelligible].

[sings] We shall overcome, we shall overcome. We shall overcome some day. Oh, deep in our hearts, I do believe we shall overcome some day.

OK. Quiet down. Quiet down. First of all, we wanna discuss about the time and the place of the sit-in. Angela, tell me about that.

OK. We're gonna picket up on the Pick 'n Save. We're picketing because they don't hire Blacks and if hired, they 're on janitorial jobs. [unintelligible] have equal rights and equal opportunities to the job.

What kind of demonstrating are we gonna be doing?

A nonviolent demonstration.

You know that phrase, nonviolent demonstration. We've always been a nonviolent demonstration [unintelligible].

We've got to get attention. We've got to get the media.

But if we use violence, no one's gonna listen to us.

That's right [inaudible].

But look at where Dr. King is right now in Birmingham jail, arrested on Good Friday.

But we can't stoop to the level of our oppressor.

That's right.

But I have a daughter too and a family to support. I don't wanna get arrested and lose it all.

I got five kids and I'm a widow. If I get arrested, who's gonna take care of them? [inaudible] support non-violence.

But if you don't protest right now, your children are never gonna have them.

Tell 'em, tell 'em. [applauds]

It's in both these situations where we gotta protest now. It's either now or never.

[chants] Protest now! Protest now! Protest now! Protest now! Protest now!

Fast forward. Keep reversing, reversing [inaudible].

[laughs]

We felt we were right. But we felt we were right and rational. We took the position that segregation was wrong. We really tried to be open, honest and loving with our opposition for a person who is being honest and truthful is in a much better position than a person who is lying or trying to maintain his preference even though on some level he knows he is wrong. I think on some level, most people deep down knew the segregation was wrong. People used to tickle me, talking about how brave I was marching and sitting in and what have you 'cause I was so scared all the time. I was like wall-to-wall terrified. I can remember many times before demonstrations sitting in class and I knew we were gonna have a demonstration after school and the palms of my hands would get all sweaty and I would feel so tense and tight inside. I was really afraid. But the movement had a way of reaching down inside me and bringing out things I never knew were there like courage and love for people. It was a real experience to be with a group of people who cared about you so much that they would put themselves between you and danger and you cared about them so much that you would put yourself between them in danger.

And the struggle in Birmingham and Alabama-

OK, lights.

So, we're not as high-tech as Newton because we're in Boston. [laughs]

Come on, now.

But it gets more hi-tech like in Sudbury. [laughs]

[laughs] Yeah. Wait till we see like in Sudbury.

Yes.

OK. But there was a real power to, I think some of you will recognize the last speech is Diane Nash. There's a real power that Tara felt to...the girl who played that to being able to play that role. There was a real power that Faith felt of being able to be Bull Connor. People in the audience laughed. They laughed because she was funny at doing it. They laughed because she made them uncomfortable because she was Black and a woman doing it and there was a lot to talk about amongst the actors about what kind of response they were gonna get from just having taken the position of being somebody else that was real in history that didn't look like them and maybe wasn't even their same sex. And I think when the shows then came on, that those particular twenty kids were miles ahead of other kids in terms of thinking about what the issues were that were really coming up in the documentary series. So, I guess if I had sort of one piece of advice to use before Eyes II comes on, I would really get kids to think about and role play who those characters are so there can be some kind of identification. I think you heard Esther talk about that personalization. And I think that's really what gets kids to think about how...the difficult issues that, that the shows bring up. So, I don't know if anyone has questions now or you wanna wait till later? OK.

Let's let Barbara talk and then-

Oh, OK.

Thank you.

Thank you. Very nice. [applauds]

First, I wanna say that I was asked to do an overall survey of how Eyes is being used and there are a lot of people who are using it and there was no way I could talk to everyone. So, I'm sure I've overlooked some key people who have wonderful things to say. So, I wanna apologize upfront for not contacting every, everyone. But what I did find was more often than not, Eyes is used in a informal way. It's not necessarily sanctioned by a school's curriculum. And, and in fact I found that maybe that's why so many good methods are coming forth because it's not teachers who are forced to teach it. It's people who are doing it by choice. And there are a lot of...I mean, I encourage you to keep talking amongst yourselves to come up with ideas. But some general hints that I, that I did come across that were helpful I found were that a lot of teachers said the problem with using Eyes on the Prize in the classroom is that it's too long to fit into the class hour and there's a very simple solution to that. And Esther Catef is...is that how you say your last name?

[inaudible]

Thank you. And Steve Cohen both, both suggested this, the, the miracle of the pause button. I mean, you just cue into the segment you wanna watch. In the first part, you may wanna just watch the Emmett Till segment or just the Montgomery Bus Boycott segment. I know that Ron Bennett said that he spent several days just discussing one segment. So, you just watch one segment. Make sure you never show it in its entirety with no room for discussion and then send them on to math class. I mean, you just...it's not a good way to show it it's sort of the consensus I found among teachers. Make sure you allow, oh, twenty minutes or so, for screening a segment and then stop the film and, and discuss for quite a while. And then the next day or two days later, you can pick up from where you left off once you've discussed it to your liking. And that's a, that's a really simple solution to a problem a lot of teachers came across. Another was the issue of having an all-White or an all-Black class. And teachers, I found some had, had co-taught with a teacher of the opposite race. If it was a Black teacher, he or she co-taught with a White teacher or vice versa. Also, it was an all-White class they, they tried to coordinate with say an ESL class to bring in students with diverse viewpoints to an all-White class. In other words, just try, try to find innovative ways to, to mix it up because that mix certainly helps when it comes time to discuss the films after you've viewed them. Some other quick hints, Moody book, the Anne Moody book I came across, both Steve Cohen and a woman, Pam Sporn who teaches in Brooklyn told me about the Anne Moody book which is a wonderful starting point for watching Eyes on the Prize or, or dealing with this curriculum and civil rights with any materials. The Anne Moody book, Coming of Age in Mississippi, the first twenty to thirty pages or so describe her life as a girl growing up in Mississippi, the conditions, the outhouses, the dirt roads the...you know. It sounds like 1890. So, you have the kids read those first twenty to thirty pages, no more, because she doesn't mention the year. And then when they come into class, you ask them what year was this? And, and as far as I remember you saying, no kid guessed anything past 1900. Then when you say this is your mother's age. She was your mother's age, that makes it more immediate to them. They immediately know what time period you're talking about instead of...to kids, it seems hundreds of years ago is the, sort of the consensus too that I've had among teachers, was trying to get them to understand that this is recent history is hard. So that's a nice vehicle to get them to understand that. Also, some suggested having, the same teacher, Pam Sporn suggested having students write the status of Blacks one hundred years ago, fifty years ago, twenty-five years ago based on no knowledge at all, just what they thought was going on. An essay on civil rights, just have them write before they see anything and then at the end, have them look over what they wrote to see how much they learned, she said was helpful to them. Also, she suggested, and a lot of teachers did the same thing is don't only think the only guest speaker you can have is Rosa Parks and if you can't get Rosa Parks, forget it, OK?

[laughs]

Because the, the richness of this history, the, the great thing about it is that it's so recent. These people are alive and they're living in our communities everywhere in the country. And just as this girl in your class, her, her mother could come in and speak to the class about what she felt like to be their age and have something like this happen. So, the first thing Pam Sporn does in her class, and other teachers have suggested this, is the assignment is go home and talk to your parents. Ask them where were they during this period, what do they remember? Or their, or their friends or relatives or neighbors, talk with them. Ask them, where were they? Students naturally come up with that question more often than not after watching a segment of Eyes and they do go home. When the kids come back with, with their ideas, invite some of those people if there are good ones to come into the classroom and talk to the kids and take questions or watch a segment with them and field some questions. If they were Freedom Summer volunteers, they can come in and watch that segment and, and then have them there to talk with the kids afterwards and utilize those resources outside of the classroom was very helpful. Some teachers had students keep journals while, while they are watching the film so they can immediately keep track of their ideas. Some teachers have quick reference handouts so that they, in a synopsis or even on oral synopsis before watching a segment, what you can expect to see. And with a quick reference so that when the chyron, the name shows at the bottom of the screen, they'll know who it is. They can keep refreshing their memories. The pause button is used again, not just to queue up to the segment or show, the show you want to see but also, to pause in the middle when there's a question. If a student has any question at all, encourage them to ask. Stop the...there's...nothing says you have to let it keep running. Stop the film. Explain what SNCC is for the second time because it goes right by them the first time. Explain things as you go along using the pause button. And beware of one other thing which I found which is kids, there was a girl in your class in fact who the question was asked, What would you have done if you were these, these people who were so put upon in the South? She said, Well I would have moved to Boston. I would have moved north. Well, you know, stop right there and ex, and do some explaining about how this, you know...it's too easy for kids to remove themselves from the material and say, Oh, those were those Southerners. Those racists in the South and it would never happen here. Well, talk a bit about Boston busing. Talk about, you know, whatever materials might relate to their, you know, misimpression about, about where racism exists. Also, don't use it just for Black History month if you can avoid it. Try to integrate it with other materials. It certainly speaks to lessons in democracy, in the constitution or states' rights issues. It...any civics class I'm sure can find a way to integrate this into a lot, in a lot of different ways. I'm sure the fact that you are here says to me that you already know this [laughs] all right. So, that's the...another teacher, I can't remember if, maybe it was you, I can't remember. Somebody said - use The New York Times, Atlanta Constitution of the day. Go back and pull the materials from back then. Get the primary source material the way this stuff was covered back then and have the kids do a critical analysis of how it was covered. When you look at how the press handled Emmett Till's mother, you can see that there was a certain bias oftentimes. Have them read John Birch Society publications put out back then and they'll learn also, to read it with a critical eye.

-themes and show how, how widely Eyes is used not just from grammar school through post-graduate school but it's also used in prisons. It's used in living rooms. I mean, people have...host, host viewings in their own houses. I have a story which, which is an old man who's seventy-two year-old, seventy-two year-old Black man who grew up in Mississippi, not too far from Money, Mississippi who, when he watched the Emmett Till segment, he tells me, he knew immediately what Emmett Till was up against when he said, Bye baby, to that woman, you know, he just knew. So, after the film ended, he, he told the students and others assembled in that living room that that story. He said, Look, I grew up in Mississippi. I knew what he was up against. I knew when he said, Bye baby. He said, I knew this because I saw my uncle strung up under a railroad trestle with buckshot through his head. I had three of my relatives lynched, he said. He told these students. He said, And I've been through all this. This stuff happened. I remember being ten years old sitting in...downtown in the White part of town and being ten years old and a, and a White man saying to me when he looked up at a....he glanced up at a White woman. He said, He said, Hey, boy. Don't look at her like that. I'll string you up. And he said, I...he, and he says, It that way. I mean, he says it that way to these White students and Black students who were in the living room assembled to watch this. This guy could come into your classroom, I mean, these kinds of stories. So, when he tells him this, he said it made it more immediate to them again because here's somebody who had been there and what sounded like it was one hundred years ago and here, he is in flesh and blood telling them that he was just like Emmett Till growing up. Anyway...this, this segment that I'm going to play for you has to do with-what is it coming out of? I'm coming out of a bad example of how not to use Eyes where there's no decompression afterwards, where, where school just wanted to continue, Let's talk about how the press acted, after the Emmett Till segment and a student wasn't ready for that. They wanted to decompress a little first. So, that's what I'm talking about. Also, at the end of this piece, you'll hear some rap music. It is the Lincoln Sudbury tape that was mentioned earlier, the rap video which is available too and, and it's, it's quite highly produced. I wouldn't try...I mean, it's expensive to do. I wouldn't recommend that but certainly, the other ways that this is being used are, are affordable but that's what that is. It's sort of out of context. So, it was mentioned earlier so I wanted you to know that. I hope you can hear this.

Sensitively and creatively with the Eyes on the-

Make you feel where, you know, what do you do with these feelings now?

Dealing sensitively and creatively with the Eyes on the Prize materials has become a specialty of the Detroit-based Michigan Coalition for Human Rights. The coalition has taken on an ambitious program coordinating screenings of Eyes on the Prize for hundreds of city and suburban teenagers from a variety of backgrounds. The coalition tapped into this diversity by contacting local churches, temples and mosques in and around Detroit. Tom Fenton heads the coalition.

The question we kept asking ourselves, how do we bring together city and suburban kids and what do we say to them when we get them together and what kinds of materials, audiovisual materials, can we use to help that discussion along? And we, we looked all over the country. We looked at, you know, through different resource centers and different denominations and we felt like this...that the Eyes on the Prize series, the way that it does history while at the same time dealing with race relations was the best thing that there was. So, we chose to use that kind of as to spearhead any of our race relations work.

Over 600 teens took part in the Detroit screenings over a six-week period of time. Movement participants were on hand to field questions after each screening. One memorable evening, the speaker was Rosa Parks and the crowd filled the hall.

There was a young Black girl who had come to all the sessions and she really wanted to meet Mrs. Parks but just didn't have the courage to do it. And, and she said to me she just wanted to touch her. And there was Mrs-the lights came on and she just watched Mrs. Parks and the Montgomery Bus Boycott and there she is, you know, in, in the hall. And, and after she shook her hand and, and got her to sign her book...she I mean, she just literally, you know, walked away beaming and, and kind of laughing and giggling and was, you know, really excited that she had actually met Mrs. Parks. It really brought the history alive to her. And I think when she met her, it, it made all the difference in the world.

Close relations have developed through the Eyes on the Prize screenings. Many of the teenagers from different schools have stayed in touch. An inner-city Black church and a White suburban church play softball together regularly. And this past summer, through the Michigan Coalition, a busload of teens from throughout the Detroit area traveled south visiting key cities as highlighted in the Eyes on the Prize series. They called it a Freedom Tour. As the bus arrived at each city, it was greeted by a civil rights movement participant who acted as a guide to that city taking the teens to all of the key sites as chronicled in the series.

Albany Georgia was really our first stop from the Eyes on the Prize series. And when we got there, when the group got there that evening, the first evening we were there, we watched, and as we tried to do everywhere, we watched on part four of the series dealing with Albany and met with Reverend Charles Sherrod who is obviously prominent in, in that part of the series.

In Montgomery, Rosa Parks who now lives in Detroit, rode on the bus as the Freedom Tour participants re-enacted her famous bus ride. 14-year-old Tameka Mingo says that it was at that moment riding on a bus in Montgomery with Rosa Parks that made her realize that this is living history.

She lived in the city of Detroit and so did I, and that was my first time seeing her when I went on the trip, you know. And I said, Wow. I said, There's so many people around here who was involved in the civil rights movement and we need to start taking advantage of those people, you know, going to them and talking to them about it, you know, asking them to come to our schools and to talk about the civil rights movement. What are some of the things that we can do as a group, you know, to keep Ma-Martin Luther, Martin Luther King's dream alive?

The Freedom Tour spent a week at the Martin Luther King center in Atlanta where they learned techniques of non-violent protest, lessons that would be put to use later in Birmingham. There, the group was escorted to a department store to see the site of a once segregated lunch counter. The teens made several purchases, candy, gum, film. One student, Erica Walls who is Black, asked the clerk for the bathroom key. She was told the bathroom was out of order. She then saw a White woman emerge from the restroom. One of the White chaperones then went and asked for the restroom key and was given it. Tameka Mingo was with the other students when Erica Walls told them about the bathroom incident.

We were in the basement. And so, she came down and she told us as a group exactly what happened to her. And me personally, I was upset, you know, that we went a Freedom Tour learning about the civil rights movement and a lot of people were saying that the discrimination or racism still didn't exist anymore. And then, you know, to come down here and something like that happened. And so, I just suggested that we return our merchandise. It was a nonviolent way. We had just came from the King Center. So, I said, Well, this is a nonviolent way that we can protest. And so, a lot of students, they had to think about it first, you know. A lot of students were just standing there and saying, Well, you know, should we do this, you know, or should we not? And then I was, you know, I just, I started, just kept saying, I said, We should return our merchandise. And I started convincing kids that it, it was not right that we cannot use the restroom, you know. We had to return our merchandise. This is a way for us to stand up as a group. And, and I just, I just started convincing everybody and we did, that's what we did. We turned, we returned our merchandise.

Overall, Mingo says it was a good experience. She says she learned that ordinary men and women played a large part in the movement, that it wasn't only the big-name civil rights leaders.

We used to think that the civil, that Martin Luther King was the only person who started the civil rights movement. And also, we learned that that racism still exists and I didn't...that was something I just, you know, up here in the North and in Detroit, you didn't really think that racism still exists as the way, as it does now. And we really kind of somewhat felt how the people in the, in the during the civil rights movement felt, you know, how it really was to be discriminated against. I...I would say that was one of the main things we realized too.

Teacher Steve Cohen, who wrote the Eyes on the Prize source book for high school students says, Eyes on the Prize is in the end, a lesson in participatory democracy.

You know, I heard guys...the headmaster at South Boston High School once say in a lecture that his grandfather gave him some great advice once and it's also, advice that I, I think, try to use particularly in terms of teaching about civil rights. He said, You know, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And I think that's pretty important. I'm not telling the kids what to stand for. I think that's a matter for themselves to think about. It's hard. I think that...you know, I think despair is not what we want to teach and I think that one of the great parts about teaching the Eyes on the Prize is that you're not teaching despair. You're teaching success. In certain ways, you're teaching a method. You're teaching a story about people who are very interested in making democracy work.

I want to go to a decent school. That's what they say. Anyway, that's the, that's the-

Can I use that?

Huh?

Can I use that?

What, that video?

Yeah.

The video. You use that. That's right, yeah. That's the, that's the video that you, that you start and finish your unit with. So, you see, actually, that's an interesting point because that video that you heard at the end that you can tell those are the three things that he was talking about, is, you know, orients them and then they get it at the end when they see it at the end of the year. Anyway, that's pretty much all I have to say. So, back to you, Steve. I don't know. I mean-

Thank you, Chet.

[laughs]

That was great.

Oh, this is-

Not my part particularly.

Maybe I shouldn't say that. This, this audio tape is like hot off the tape head. And it, I don't know exactly what I, what Blackside's intentions are with it but I do know it'll be made available to teachers. And it sort of gives these kinds of examples. That was just the last one. So, if you care to hear more of it, you should contact Blackside.

Well, Bob Lavelle, who's the vice president in charge of most everything walked in.

Oh, he's there.

So, he's hiding. So, pressure him and he'll give you anything. He, he's weak under pressure. He'll do it.

Oh, Bob, stand up so they can see who you are.

There's the guy.

Do you have any of those white resource books?

OK, OK.

They gave them out in the packets. Anyway, I know that it's getting late because if Bob's coming in, he probably is coming in for the next session. Ron has some things down here. Esther has some things down here. The panel, I think, can stay for a couple of minutes. So, if you have more questions, please come down, and we thank you. Thank you all.