That's all right—

OK, rolling.

—we'll just, when it runs out, we'll—

Go ahead.

[reading] This is an experience I had while in the mental hospital. I felt that I was treating patients in a very inhuman way. A patient named Eleanor was in a straightjacket and tied to her bed for most of the time. We bathed her when she was almost limp from medication. One day when the attendant was gone, she begged me to untie her. She seemed so sweet and I felt so sorry for her. She promised me that she would sit quietly, so I untied her. No sooner was she free than she caught hold of my hair and had me flat on the floor. I screamed for help and several of the better patients and attendants from the next ward came to my rescue. I didn't try that again. The problem was that there was no known treatment for these patients and the more they were confined, the more violent they became. [ends reading]

Back up a little, let me take that away from you.

Can everybody be very quiet for a minute?

Yeah.

[clears throat]

And the glasses.

Your glasses, take your glasses off.

Something's wrong—

Could you start by introducing yourself?

I'm Lois Schertz. I live in Goshen, Indiana.

Would you talk about, why don't you, why don't you talk a little about what happened to you during World War Two? Before you went, this, sort of, a little, I saw an interview with you which I thought, I really liked the stories you told about what happened in the community because of the position you took.

[coughs]

That's it, the DAT's done.

OK.

We lived in a farming community and the, were not, I don't think anyone was prepared for the war when Pearl Harbor was attacked. So, we didn't give it a lot of thought until December 7. And this was six months, or this was right before I was married. My husband and I along with another couple were in Chicago at the Planetarium. And suddenly the lights came on and a man announced that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor and also said that any of us that wanted to leave, might leave at that time. Well, as we went out on the streets of Chicago it was all quiet. It was, it was a very strange experience. Well, my husband was, had signed up to go into vol-, service and I didn't really know what was going to be-, happen. We were married on Christmas Day. I did not know how soon he would be conscripted, and I was teaching school at that time. Well, the community was a very close-knit community, small community, friendly people. And at first when they found out what we were doing, there was not a great deal of talk about it. But, as the war escalated and it became apparent that this wasn't going to be an easy victory, the community spirit became very antagonistic, or the people in the community became very ant-, antagonistic. In fact, I was teaching in a one-room school, all eight grades, and I had looked forward to being hired in a small school in, in this town close to where we lived. Well, I soon discovered that I would not be hired and I, the reason was because my husband was going into Civilian Public Service. And so it was at my-, at that point that I decided I would join him. And I was glad I did because it was difficult living in that communi-, —munity, it was difficult for my parents. I had one brother who was drafted. And for my mother particularly, her very close neighbors would not even speak to her. Well, it was confusing to me, because I felt that I could not be resentful toward them since after all, they were sending husbands, sons into the war and there were some fatalities and I realized it must be very difficult for them to see us in relative safety.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Was the town a Mennonite town, or had a lot of Mennonites in it?

[clears throat]

No, it's—

Were you, just back up a little—

Yeah.

—were you brought up in a Mennonite household?

I was brought up in a Mennonite home. However it was not a close Mennonite community, we lived about ten or twelve miles from the church and so most of our neighbors were not Mennonites—

—but we had a very good rapport with them.

We've got the phone ringing and I, and those guys just arrived.

[sighs]

—decision.

But I was brought up in a Mennonite home, in a Mennonite church. And so this teaching was prevalent in the church. Although, not everyone, when—really felt strongly about it. There was mixed feelings about it. I think partly, I had an uncle who had been a conscientious objector in World War One, and I'd heard many stories about him. So, I didn't really feel, though, as a woman I would have any part in it because there were meetings at the church for the men, and the women weren't invited because at that time, me-, women did not have too much of a role in the church. So I didn't get in on the things that they were talking about, you know, the logistics of what was happening in the government. But I would hear it from my father and from my brother. So, I think I always felt that that was the stand I would take, because of the teaching of the church. So—

Would you just describe what the stand was? What was the stand you would take?

Well, the, we, the one thing that was problematic with me was that we were just told that we do not believe in war, we don't believe in killing and this business of alternative service was never mentioned until actually when the war started. The church was not quite prepared for that. So, there were a lot, there was a lot of thinking to do at that point, you know? What do we do, now actually there is a war, what do we do? So, when it was discovered that alternative service would be provided by the government, then I felt that that was a position that I could take. Otherwise, I, I'm not sure what would have happened. [laughs]

What did you, did you—

OK.

I will have to admit, as I indicated before, that I wasn't too serious, probably, about thinking of the peace position as the church was talking about it. I was more interested probably in having a good time at that time of my life [laughs]. But I was forced into it because of the fact that I was to be married and I knew that my husband would be drafted. So probably it was that kind of thing that led me to do a lot of thinking. And I will have to admit also, that I didn't do a great deal of thinking about it before I became involved and worked at the mental hospital. But there, through conversation with other people I began to really take a serious look at what it really meant. And when I was discouraged and upset when I went home about the fact that all of these people were losing their lives and what am I doing you know, here, you know, being in comparative safety. The thing I found solace in was that I realized the inhuman treatment of these mental patients, which I had never be-, experienced before. I'd never heard of, I'd heard of insane asylums, but I never realized that mentally disabled persons were so cruelly and inhumanly treated and I knew that that was something that I could conscientiously do and feel I was contributing to something that was important during the war. Because of the fact that they lost most of their employees, you could get good factory, women could, particularly could find jobs in the factories, that's when women began to really work outside the home. And only the people who could not find a job, and many of them were inept, worked in the hospital, and could care less about the patients.

Mm-hmm. Go back and then we're gonna go to the hospital.

[clears throat]

Go back and talk about what happened when you went to your cousin's store and how you were treated as conscientious object-, as a conscientious objector in the town.

We did have some time that we could go back to our home and we of course eagerly anticipated the first time we went, but were not quite prepared for the reception that we received. My husband and I went into a store which was owned and operated by a cousin of his. And we thought, we'll buy some things here talk to her. And immediately when she saw us, she motioned for us to come to the back room. She did not want people to see her talking to us because it might hurt her business. So this was difficult. She was also, belonged to the Mennonite church. So there were many things that were confusing to me at that point.

So, within their community, there were Mennonites who took the position you took, Mennonites who didn't, and other people who saw you as a threat.

Yes.

Now, so, could you talk about that a little, about how that broke down?

Well there were some people. I think the biggest problem was losing a job, as for example, I could not go on, I was teaching, I'm not sure I could've had another school in that community. So a wage earner who was responsible for his family just did not want to take that kind of a position, because they were afraid they were [sic] lose their job, or would not get the job after they returned home.

Mm-hmm.

I think this contributed partly to the diverse thinking at that time. Also, as I indicated before, we were not totally prepared for this. That war came rather suddenly, and the church had not really addressed that issue since World War One.

Do you have any good World War One stories about your family—

[clears throat]

—you said your uncle was a conscientious objector. Did anything traumatic happen to him?

[clears throat]

Well, he was in—

Could you say who?

I had an uncle who was drafted and at that time there wasn't an alternative service, they went into the regular army barracks, but would refuse to bear arms, he did other things. And I did read some from his journal and in it he tells about [clears throat] the fact that they kept harassing them and trying to make them change their mind. And at one time, I believe he told me, that they were to be brought out and they were to be shot. And so, they went out in the morning and found out that the soldiers had had empty guns, they were not. But it was part of attempting to get them to change their mind, there was quite a bit of that. So, it was difficult.

Could you just say that was during World War One? You didn't say—

That—

[clears throat]

—that it was World War One.

This was during the time of World War One.

And, are you having trouble looking at me 'cause of your glasses?

I don't know what's the—

Yeah, you look like you're looking up.

—well, everything is kind of hazy, but I'll try real hard.

Yeah, try and, try and look at me—

Focus on you, all right.

—I know you're not seeing me quite as well as you would with your glasses.

No, you're, you're kind of hazy.

Yeah. It's OK, so look at hazy in this direction, instead of hazy in the other direction—

Hazy, hazy, hazy, all right.

You're doing great.

OK. Yeah, you are, you're doing great.

Oh, I don't know.

You're doing fine.

Talk some more, talk a little more about the mental institution.

Pardon, what?

Talk a little more about the mental institution and what happened—

—there. Sort of, what was your impression the day—

[laughs]

—you walked into the mental institution compared to what you has expected?

The night that I came to Mount Pleasant, Iowa, which was the mental institution to which we were assigned, well, I didn't really have much of an idea of what was going to happen. As I said, I was young and I thought, well, we'll make the best of it. Well, the next morning, I was assigned to a ward, I wasn't even told what I was going to do. But they said, you will be on this ward, and the, where the assistant is an older attendant that's been here for quite a while. Well, it so happened she was a very nice woman who, who was, whose husband was in the Army but really treated me very well. This was called the violent ward, this was my first contact with this hospital, in which most of the child-, the patients were confined to straightjackets and sedated with paraldehyde in the morning, so they'd sleep all day long. And they had a public dining room which a few would attend, but for the most part we shoved the trays under the door. Some of them didn't get a bath for days and days because we couldn't bring them out. So the first night, I just dreamed all night long, it was horrible. I thought, I can't stay here [laughs]. But as time went on, I realized that these were human beings, learned to be friendly with many of them, and realized there were small things I could do. Now [clears throat] excuse me.

The biggest problem I had was the fact that we were not allowed to look at the records. I would say, couldn't I not see the records of this patient, and maybe I could-, no, there, we were not allowed to. Just do your work. Clean up the wards, mop the floors, or get the patients to mop the floors, give them their medication, see that they're fed, that's all that you need to do. Well this was diffi-, this was very difficult, and then, the next thing was I thought, somebody ought to protest this inhuman treatment. This went on, on, on all of the wards, this was not—because I was on a violent ward it was a little more of, there was more, more stringent things taken toward them. But, I always thought we should complain to, but who do we complain to? Now we were told by people in the government, or maybe not in the government, but maybe the people in our church, who had had contact with the government, that this was a privilege, and we should not abuse this privilege. So that was a bit of a problem, this does not seem right.

Mm-hmm.

However, the time came when the hospital personnel began to trust us. They realized we were working very hard, the hos-, the hospital was cleaner, people who were visiting the patients were happier and they knew that, they couldn't help but realize that things were better, although they didn't tell us. [clears throat] We didnít, we shouldn't get any compliments, which was OK. So then one time, one of the men was left in charge who, was, while the hospital personnel, the doctors and the administrator were at some kind of a convention, and that was at the time that the State was called in. Now I'm not quite sure how this happened—

[coughs] —but there were many of us that tried to get him to do this. He was the one that would have to do it, the rest of us didn't have any clout. So the state inspectors did come and they talked to us one by one and they were just appalled at the situation.

Mm-hmm.

They knew that there wasn't good, probably good s-, medical health that could be given to many of these people because there wasn't a lot known about mental health at that time, but I think the sanitary conditions, and that was of a great shock to them and so they listened.

Mm-hmm.

And that felt really good that there was some way that we could make known that conditions were not the way they should be.

Describe the conditions a little bit more—

[coughs]

—what were some of the—

[coughs]

—what were some of the things that you found when you went—

Well, they, for example, one of the things that was difficult, also, for me was that once in a while I would substitute on what they would call the front ward. This would be patients who, maybe were had a bit of a depression. Unfortunately, a lot of women in their middle age—

Mm-hmm.

—who were confined to mental hospitals whose, maybe husbands thought that was a good place for them, as they told their stories.

Mm-hmm.

And the sad part was that, the inebriates were assigned to that ward. Young people who had a drinking problem would be thrown in with this group of people who were mixed, very mixed. Now some of them had, today maybe we'd say they were autistic, but they had some mental problems. And so they were, they were all thrown in with them [clears throat] and it was interesting to note that they did not get out very fast because they soon fell into the pattern of what the rest were doing.

Mm-hmm.

There was no help for a young person who had an alcohol, personality, a problem with drinking. And there were a good many of them that were thrown in with the other patients, so that was a mix. So that situation wasn't good.

Mm-hmm.

Then, there were many patients who had had syphilis, social diseases, and they were in the last stages of that. Now there was not much to be done with them at that point, but as I said before, they were confined in sta-, straightjackets which would tie the arms together in a very tight way and the tie, you tied them behind their back. And, there was no freedom, they'd shuffle along with, the halls, you know, pushing mops and in bed at night, they still wore those straightjackets. And so, these, these were things that did not help a patient recover. That was also when they were, a time when they were trying shock treatments, which was not very effective, and some of them were, afterward, were worse than they had been before.

How 'bout the, the conditions physically of the hospital—

[clears throat]

—was it, was it, you know—

[coughs]

—decrepit, filthy, or was it [unintelligible]?

Well, it wouldn't, the building itself was OK, but it had not been kept up as far as the sanitary conditions were concerned, and that was partly because, as I said before, it was hard, it was very difficult to get people to work there in the first place. I'm not sure that I would have applied for a job there [laughs] even though I felt strongly about helping them. So, they had people who were not interested in keeping up the, and no, the keeping up the sanitary conditions. Actually, the patients were the ones that mopped the floors and the supervisor or the attendant was to watch them do it and if she wanted to sit down or he wanted to sit down, why they could do it and read a book the rest of the afternoon.

You mentioned somewhere, in something I just read—

[clears throat]

—that the smell, that the smells were really overwhelming.

Why yes, because, because of that, there were many what we called untidy patients, and so, they didn't really have a consciousness of where the bathroom was or, to use it. We,in fact, we would call it specialing the patients, every so often we'd take the patients to the bathroom. But the times that they [laughs] that that didn't work, why then, this happened in their rooms. And I would have to say, that we had one patient I will never forget named Dorothy and she was what, in what was called a strong woo-, room. The walls were cement and the floor was cement and there was a drain in the middle of it. So we would take water, and she never did go to the bathroom, we'd take that, water and pour it under the door. And she would tear off all of her clothes, she was naked most of the time, and some of the times we would give her a new denim cloak, or whatever you'd call it, to put on. So, from that standpoint, the smells were, the odors were not good. [laughs]

Did you, what, as a Mennonite, and, and in terms of, Russell was with you right, you were both in the hospital? And what was—you came as a wife and were there COGs also at that hospital?

Well...

Talk about the relationship—

[clears throat]

—with the men in the hospital and how women fit into the, to the whole situation.

I think the word COG is C.O. Girls, is that correct? I think, I think I'm correct in that. So I was not actually a COG. But the hospital wanted these men to come very badly, but they also wanted married men, because they would bring their wives and that would be two for one. So, [laughs] so that was one of the reasons that I went. I'm not sure, you know, had I stayed home, I'm not sure what I would have done, if I'd gone on my own. But being married, I probably would have tried to find something that was close to where my husband was—

Mm-hmm.

—and so, someone laughingly said when I went, well you just want to go so you can be with your husband, and maybe that was the truth at the beginning. [laughs]

Mm-hmm. And then—

[clears throat]

—how did it evolve for you, so it be-, did it become more than that?

But as time went on, I really took a good look at what the Mennonite Church believed, I think that was the first time. The, we had many people there who had come from Russian Mennonites, and they had relatives that were very close to persecution. And they took the peace position very seriously. And I think it was through a lot of them, we had discussions, we had long discussions at night about why we were doing this, and I think that is what strengthened my faith.

Mm-hmm.

I think I entered with a very flimsy philosophy [laughs] but as I worked there, and not only working with mental patients, but having dialogue with other people and we would clarify, or, we would try to really talk about what this means and what will it mean in the future, to the church, part of it being that maybe this will be a change in mental health.

Was it?

It was, and then we found out that later on the man who started the first Mennonite Mental Health in California had been in CPS. So that was, for me that was one of the most satisfying things that happened. Because it was discouraging during the time we were there, partly because we didn't, couldn't protest, partly that there didn't seem to be an end, and partly because I thought, is my job really worthwhile? I'm not making much of a difference.

Mm-hmm.

So those things just gradually evolved and I think it was at the end that I began to realize what an experience this had been and that I was glad that I had that experience.

Looking at you! Now you're becoming plainer.

Yes.

You're doing great.

Maybe I don't need my glasses anymore.

See? Yeah, you've cured your eyes. OK? When your ready. OK, go ahead.

Well, when we first went into CPS, we thought it would probably be a very short time, since the feeling of the community, the government was this, that this would be a short war, with the United States going in with the troops this would be the end. However, that did not happen and as time went on we felt like we were a little community in that hospital ourselves, totally isolated from the world and that maybe this would go on forever. We didn't even go downtown, we had popcorn in our rooms because we weren't—

Say that again. Just start with, we didn't even go downtown.

[clears throat] We didn't even go downtown because the people in town were not particularly happy with our being there, so we had popcorn in our rooms and just entertained ourselves from that standpoint, which was OK. However the feeling of longevity became heavy sometimes. Some of us were wondering, when do we start a family. So it was probably by accident [laughs] that, that I became pregnant during the last six months. We were there a total of three and a half years. Well, I stayed on the wards working because, well, I re-, I really needed to work and the other thing was I discovered then that another couple who were there had a three-year-old daughter that they had left back in Kansas with the, the grandparents. So they said, now if you would like to take care of her, we would, the grandparents would pay you some money to do that. So during the last six months of my pregnancy, I, or the last three months, I think it was, I went to a house that there was an older woman who was glad to, to loan it to us while she went to Florida. I don't know, things just seemed to work out. And so I took care of this little three-year-old 'till our son was born.

Did, how did you, how did you and the other women who were there, I think you started talking about the COGs, and what, did, did you identify yourselves as conscientious objectors at the time? And how, what was women's role in all of this during the war?

Most of the women, all of the women, in fact were wives of men, there were no p-, there were no women that had gone in just on their own as single persons, or for the reason of taking a job at that time. So, most of us, again, we joined in with the men and I think the most interesting thing that happened, was that we seemed to be on equal footing with the men. We used to have a church service at night, we worked se-, we worked seven days a week and from twelve to, from six to six, twelve hours a day, and I think we had one Sunday in four weeks or six weeks, I'm not sure which. So obviously, we would not attend church. So we had a little church of our own at night. The interesting thing to me was that the women were also allowed to participate in the church service and it took me forty years to do that after I went back home. [laughs]

Hmm. So, at that time Mennonite women didn't participate in the church service? Meaning, meaning you could go, but you couldn't be, you know, active participants.

We could teach Sunday School to the children. But we could not get up on the, behind the pulpit or read the scripture, or pray, or talk.

So that was really a lot, that was a change for you to be, and were you excited by that was that interesting, or...?

I was really excited about the change and so of course when I went home I thought, I'll try to change my congregation. I found it was not so easy. [laughs]

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But did you, did you, would you have called yourself a conscientious objector at that time? Or did you see that as just as a definition that men took who were drafted?

I really think that most of us as wives felt that we were conscientious objectors. I don't think we went in with that idea, but as we kept working with them, it became apparent that we were contributing as much as they were and also facing the same kind of difficulties and problems. And I, so, I think we identified as conscientious objectors after we'd been there for a short time.

Mm-hmm. How about the when I—

[clears throat]

—if I were to ask you if you were a pacifist? Is that something you had thought of yourself as growing up, or and, did you continue to define yourself in that way?

Well, as a word, a pacifist, I, I don't think, that word was, first, first of all that word was not used too much at that time. In fact, I grew up not realizing that there were other people who would protest being a part of the military. I thought Mennonites were the only people that would do that. Then when we got into CPS, we discovered that there were people from other churches, and so that was interesting to know. And they came, I don't think just from a pacifist position, I think from a deep conviction, from a religious conviction.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not sure that during World War Two that there were pacifists as we see them today. There might have been, I, that's something maybe I do not know. But, at least in my knowledge and in my relationships, I didn't know people who were only pacifists, and not conscientious objectors because of religious reasons.

Mm hmm, there were. That's what the fi-, I mean the film is about those people too—

[clears throat]

Mm-hmm, yeah.

— people who were pacifists for, for political reasons—

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

—or humanistic reasons. Talk a little about being a member of a church that would be considered a non-conformist church in the greater—

[coughs]

—mainstream society, but being a conformist to the beliefs of that church.

Should I say what I think? [laughs]

Yeah, I do, yes, you should definitely say what you think [laughs]. That's what we're here for.

Don't look at me. [laughs]

Will you be excommunicated or is it too late for that?

It's too late. [laughs]

OK, then you should say what you think.

We'll talk to the bishop about it.

Let me see, how should I start that out?

Just, if you could talk about—

[clears throat]

—that you grew up in a, did you see it that way?. That your church was a, was, you were asked to conform, and that, but your church wasn't conforming to the mainstream thinking, especially at that time?

I don't know, I'm pretty [unintelligible]

I grew up in a Mennonite Church that was much more liberal than many in the east as far as dress was concerned, that was not an important thing. However, we were, if I joined the church, whi-, which was at baptism, I had to let my hair grow, I couldn't wear jewelry, I couldn't go to movies. Now, I never could understand that, it was very difficult for me. And although I, I really loved the church, I, I had a mother who came from a non-Mennonite background, she gave me many mixed signals. She said remember Lois, it's a good church. And she said, I don't understand some of the things either. And I recall that she bought me a ring one time, which I thought was an emerald, it was green, I think it came from the dime store. I loved that ring and she said to me, now don't wear that to church, and maybe you better not tell your father, but remember, it's a good church. I think that formed some, it was very important in my thinking. I belong to this church, it is a good church. I don't believe in everything that they do. But still I was drawn to it, I was drawn to their basic theology and later on when my sons went to college, and I learned more about the basic theology of the Mennonite Church I found out it was more than dress. The dress was culture, the going to movies, this was, it was more than that, it had a much deeper meaning and so I, I to this day have a much more, a greater faith in the Mennonite Church than I did at that time. But partly because, I think I questioned, I always questioned. And when I went to school I had, I didn't want these girls to know I was a Mennonite.

Mm-hmm.

I would put my hair up in a little tiny roll and then when I got to school, I let it down. [laughs]

So, so you weren't so much. You know, I—

[clears throat]

—Is this bothering you?

Yes.

You need to not do things with your hands.

All right. [laughs]

If you do this, it helps.

That helps, yeah.

Fold your, like this—

Fold your hands.

It's a good way, you remember—

Like a good girl, there you go.

OK. Well, just tell me what to do.

So, was it, did you feel there was too much conformity required of you by the church? And that, and also, did you see the church as out of step in terms of the greater, the larger culture?

I did not really resent, particularly, nonconformity, mostly because I realized that our church was more liberal, more giving than many churches. And I will have to say that the people in the church were very tolerant of me. I felt love, I felt appreciation, I felt affirmation. So it was kind of, again, a mixed feeling. But the biggest thing, I have a passion for music and the ha-, the most difficult thing was that we didn't have an organ in the church. But I had a mother who would take us to another church that had an organ sometimes. Again, mixed—

Mm-hmm.

—signals. So, we finally came to the place in the church that we rented an organ for weddings. And then came to the place where we did have an organ. So it slowly evolved, and I was part of the people that pushed for these kinds of things. And I, I can't say that I had real resentments. It was, as I, I felt such an acceptance in the church when I was a child, I always got the longest recitations at Christmas, [laughs] and I could sing, I could do anything I wanted to it seemed.

Mm-hmm.

In fact, there were three of us who had a trio, and we had an old fashioned pitch pipe that we got the pitch. One time we just failed to get it and we all three giggled and sat down and we thought, well that's the end, we'll never be asked to sing again. We were asked to sing the next Sunday. So I, I think maybe we brought a little diversion to it.

Mm-hmm. Do you have a hymn you like,—

[clears throat]

—a Mennonite hymn? Something that's, anything that, I mean, ideally, something about the peace witness of the Mennonites.

[pause] Probably not the peace.

Just a, a hymn that you'd like to sing.

Well one, a favorite hymn that I would have would be one that my mother used to sing when she was scrubbing the floor, "Lord, Thou Has Searched and Seen Me Through." That was very important to me, one that has gone with me all of my life. We sang together as a family a lot. We sang hymns, we went through the hymn book. I knew every, the number of every hymn.

Can you sing that?

[clears throat] I had, mm-mm, I had nodules removed, I don't sing anymore. Mm-mm.

You don't sing anymore?

Otherwise, I would.

I can find, maybe, maybe a version of that. Do you feel proud of what you did during World War Two?

I don't think that I can say, as I look back, that I was proud of what I did. I realized that as one person on a film that, in which we were interviewed some time ago, a man said this was the closest probably to a just war that we've encountered. So I think sometimes I've had mixed feelings about that. How much did we need to contribute, how much do we owe to the government? Particularly after I read about the atrocities of Hitler and the Jewish people. This was difficult, and so I've, I've had to reassess some of that. So I can't say that I'm really proud of it, but I feel satisfied that I did what I could.

Did you know about the atrocities and the—

[coughs]

—the Holocaust at that time or are you talking about in retrospect, you read about them later?

We never had the vaguest idea of what was going on, as, and I don't believe very many people here in the United States did know what was going on in Germany. Because I know for me, I read about it later. I don't think that that was a well-known fact, if I'm correct.

So, now, people look back and think, oh why didn't you fight against Hitler, but there wasn't, I mean, Hitler, you knew about Hitler, but you, but most Americans really weren't aware at the time of, in your knowledge?

I don't think so. We, it was mostly the Japanese, the attack of Japanese on Pearl Harbor that would've been the outstanding thing, so of course, on VJ Day, that was very important. And I don't think Germany entered into it as much, Hitler was known as a person who was not a good leader, but incidentally, I have a letter from a great-uncle who lived in Germany [clears throat] at the time when Hitler was a young man. And he said, everything is in chaos in Germany, that would be the, the Socialist government, but there's this young man Hitler and I think he will bring something good to our country.

Mmm.

That's probably about all I knew about Hitler.

So your feeling wasnít that he was a terrible tyrant—

No.

—more, it was more animosity towards the Japanese.

Yeah.

Yeah, say, I don't know if you said that in a way I can use, could you say that again, that the...?

[clears throat] I really don't think that most of us, in our unit, talked as much about the European countries. They seemed to be, yes, we had to, because Germany had allied themselves with the other side. That would be the main reason for having any animosity toward Germany, but the Japanese had come to our shores, and so I think most of the feeling was that it was the Japanese that caused this and when they were subdued, things would be OK again.

Which is really different than how we look back on it. You know, I mean, I think it's been really shifted to—

Oh, definitely.

—be more the war in Europe. It wasn't that at the ca-, the time.

I don't know if I should, yeah, because I feel the same way. I mean, I know that it was far more, what happened in Germany that affects me, especially since my ancestry comes from there. [laughs]

Mm-hmm. And was that an issue? Were you German speaking as a child? And did that cause animosity in the community towards German speaking Mennonites.

There, in our community, we did not keep the German language. In fact, in Illinois, the Mennonites in Illinois, did not use this language as much as people in the East had done. In fact, I was never taught German, I had wished since that I had been. So, there was one teacher in our unit whose husband was a direct descendant, or had come, a first generation German, and he was looked upon with suspicion.

Mm-hmm.

But that's about all. Of course we had no Japanese in our area. So, but I do think that the German speaking, if there were any, that was not Mennonite however.

Mm-hmm.

This woman's husband was not Mennonite, he just, she happened to meet him, I don't remember the circumstances, but...

So, it wasn't a part of your community?

No. It was not part, no.

Which it was of some Mennonite communities.

No, that's right, mm-hmm.

I think we're do-, getting near the end here. Let me just double check.

[clears throat] [coughs]

I think you talked about that. [pause] [hums] Were there any other stories of feeling like an outsider because of the position you took? Or that your husband took, or that your being a conscientious objector or married to a conscientious objector?

[pause] One of the things that I recall as the war came to an end and I knew we would be going back into our own community, I became apprehensive. I wanted to go, but I didn't want to go. I wasn't sure where I would fit in, not only in the church but in the community, because there were a number in our church who went as noncombatants, or into the Army and several lives were lost. And so, as we went back to the community, I was not sure. And I did discover, my husband was older when he was drafted than-, most of the people his age had claimed deferments, so there weren't too many of us our age. And so we did not blend in exactly at the beginning, but, plus the fact that we had not any money, we'd spent four years with, of married life without earning any money, and these people who had deferments had some very high salaries.

Mm-hmm.

And so their homes were beautifully equipped. We started out with second hand furniture and [laughs], which was, why, why do you do that, I mean.

How much did you make when you were at the mental hospital?

I made, when we were at the mental hospital, the wives made thirty-five dollars a month.

And the husbands?

There was no salary for the husbands. So—

So, it was a hardship on your family.

Well we had, now, we owned a car. We took the car with us, but of course car was ra-, gas was rationed. And so, we didn't use it very often, and if we did, we pooled together with somebody else. The car was mostly to go back home, we were only about 200 miles away from where we had lived.

What's your, if you have one image of that period of your life, what comes to your mind?

I think if I look back at those years, they were years of isolationism. I, if you want to say the word, nothingness. I mean, not in the sense of not doing anything, but they were years that didn't, that it seemed we were at a standstill. Most generally in our life, we're pushing for a goal. I had been a teacher, would I ever be a teacher again? My husband didn't get his job back that he had had before. What would we do? So, I think that that was a time of uncertainty, apprehension. But on the other hand, I think it also instilled in me a value system I would not have today, because I realized that money is not the sum total of life—

Mm-hmm.

—and—

What? Go ahead.

All right. And that we really learned to enjoy people at that time with, in a very simple, simple way.

Mm-hmm. How 'bout your peace, would you call yours-, would you call what you did a peace witness and would you—[phone rings] how would you describe your values in terms of peace and justice? [phone rings] I think you said something in an interview I saw—

Now what are we gonna do about that? Unhook it.

That's OK. No. I'm just gonna wrap up—

[clears throat]

—soon.

—interrupt you one second. Just a minute. OK, good.

Rolling.

During the time that we were in the CPS unit in Mount Pleasant, we talked a lot about the peace witness as we, as it was called then. Also from the standpoint of what Mennonites believe, but not only that, but the fact that it really was more than just saying no to going to war, or being a part of the military. I think the part that evolved for me was because of the inhuman treatment of the mental patients and to take a look around and to see that there was a lot more of this going on. So for me, today, when I think about peace I think as much about justice, the haves and the have-nots, the people who are in, living in poverty. And, so that's become a very important part of both of our lives, we volunteer at the soup kitchen, we have, on our farm we have had, raised vegetables and things for the African-Americans in Chicago. So that's been very much a part of our whole married life is to be involved with minority groups, no matter what race they are. And I think part of this came because of, of thinking this through during that time. So f-, from that standpoint it was a very worthwhile venture.

On your farm? You lived on a farm, after the war? Or?

[clears throat] We lived on a farm, yes. And now we [unintelligible]

Yeah, I didn't realize that. I mean this, that you retired to, to town—

We came—

—but did you live on a farm earlier?

—we, no, we came back and we lived first of all in an apartment and then eventually moved to a farm.

And had you grown up on a farm?

I had grown up in a farm and so had my husband.

Mm-hmm.

So we were farm people. [laughs]

Hmm, I didn't realize that. [phone rings] That was perfect. OK, we're done.