-section one, although I would s-I would like you to ask that question at the producers' panel, because I think all of them. But let me mention just one. Within our team, and you'll see an excerpt from the piece, which is basically an elucidation of Black Nationalism at that point, and it is the piece that's fifth hour in the show and it talks about Mahammad Ali, yeah, the Howard University takeover, and the Gary Convention. Now, when we started talking about Howard University and there's a piece where Robin, who was the first home coming queen with an afro in, at Howard, and she talks about that. Well, that was the main reason that I had suggested that story in the first place, because it talks about not just how Black people relate to the White world but how we talk to ourselves, and what we have to correct within our own thinking about who we are. So when we talked about Robin, the White editor, who was very good and who also understood a lot about some of the other pieces, absolutely was against putting in the piece about what the afro meant or anything about the afro. Because her perspective, and we, we argued about this, her perspective was as a White woman, she thought it was anti-feminist. She felt that what we were saying was that your worth depended upon your attractiveness. Now, it didn't matter how many Black women said to her, Uh-uh, that's not what it's about. It's about who we are and whether we recognize the African-ness within us. Whether we always have to talk about straightening our hair to be accepted. It didn't matter because what she was coming with was her own perceptions were, which were, No, you are doing something else with this piece that I don't agree with. Even to the mix, to post-production, she did not agree with that piece. That's what I'm talking about. There were very different perceptions. Now, this is also a woman, I should say, who understood absolutely the Baraka piece that is in the beginning. So, it just, you, there were warring factions within that and it was hard. Yeah.

Other comments? Reflections? Mm-hmm?

I think, I think that point that Judy just brought up probably leads us right to the point that we have as educators and instructors in the classroom, when we're talking about developing a curriculum using this. We're, we're dealing with maybe individuals that are carrying certain biases around that they're gonna try to instruct a group of young adults, children, teenagers, and they're still feeling maybe personal, emotional things about the period, about the movement, about their own experiences that, that may cloud the realities that are on film or are, are written down that people have really struggled over and come up with the conclusion, Well, this is how we felt, but then this individual may still have this idea that this is how it should be. And I, I think it's something that we might have to address at some point in time, in terms of how we actually present the curriculum.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judith?

Well, just following on that not only how we present the curriculum but how we prepare teachers to deal with it at all. And when, when you're saying, you know, we all bring our own history, baggage from these events, you can see that with the, the contemporary expressions of, of Black culture like rap, the same people who have finally come to grips with soul music, right, are totally thrown by rap; Resistance, Public Enemy, N.W.A., whatever, just the whole genre. But that's one of the medium of now. And there's a very nationalistic message in that, that people over the age of eighteen cannot, can, you know, are totally resistant to. So, I think that's just one expression of the baggage she's talking about.

Mm-hmm. Russell?

My, my thought on that is that, that it's, that's very important, but it's important in, in a particular way for the, for the classroom. And that is that a, a lot of, a lot of civil rights history is taught as if people knew exactly what to do and went out and did it. When the reality that what, what I remember very vividly is that there was a great deal of struggle within individuals who took part in it, about what their biases were, what they, what they were afraid of, what their perspectives were, what their values were, what their, what their visions were. So that, to me, teaching adequately about the civil rights era should be done from a, from a process of, of immersing yourself in that same type of struggle. You know, how can you teach about how that went on if you're not able to do it yourself in the process of, of teaching?

Linda?

You know, one of the things though that I think, Judy, that I appreciate you sharing is sort of the three reasons that you think this is important. And what strikes me is, you know, what you talk about the power of unity and that nothing can stop you. And it may be that, you know, that's what I feel that we have to get to with our kids. And I, I wanted to just read a passage that I use a lot that when you were talking, I thought of this. And this is Diane Nash and she was the same age, I think, maybe you can tell me but she, I use this because she was very close to the age of my high school students and she says, [reads] "The movement had a way of reaching inside me and bringing out things that I never knew were there. Like courage, and love for people. It was a real experience to be seeing a group of people who would put their bodies between you and danger. And to love people that you work with enough that you would put your body between them and danger. I was afraid of going to jail. I said, I'll do telephone work and I'll type, but I'm really afraid of going to jail.' But when the time came to go to jail, I was far too busy to be afraid, and we had to go. That's what happened." And we really talk about that, you know, in the classroom, about what does it take for a kid to be able to say that kind of thing. And we don't usually have the luxury of someone like yourself coming and saying, You know, and I went down there. But I think, Russell, that's the kind of thing we need to think about with kids is, what did it take for her to do that? What does it take for you to do that? And often, I think kids really do come up with what it takes for them. And then the struggle is, well, how do you organize that energy. It's there. And I think our responsibility as change agents is to try to figure out, well, how do we help that movement? I don't know. Carol, maybe we can talk about some of the stuff going on at Cambridge Ridge, but I think there really is a movement of students there that are saying, We want to do some stuff, and there's adult leaders seemingly helping them through. And that's a movement I think I'd like to look a little more about how they're doing that. The City Year kids, I think, that's another group of kids that are really saying, you know, We want to be there. We're on the forefront there. So, I think the energy's there. It's our responsibility to figure out how to help, help that energy grow and mature.

Yes?

You know, also something very important that Lurlene had mentioned about how in colleges and universities the schools must train the teachers, you know, before they get into the classroom. I mean, even now the ones that are in the classroom of the colleges and universities probably should start or, or, or, take a part in some sort of special training to make sure that teachers are trained and they're able to deal with all those kinds of questions, like, deal with their own personal baggage and, and how to teach the African-American struggle the way it should be taught so that youth can understand it and the adults who will train the youths can come and they need to go back into the classrooms and deliver it in the right way.

Yeah. I think that point's well taken. I think I'm gonna hold back from showing the sampler at this point and ask Gerald to come up at this point. We have a sampler for Eyes II that we want to use, but I think we'll do that a little bit later in the morning. That OK? OK.

Good morning-

-in the late forties and early 1950s and rather would take another ten years before such protests would be fully underway. And his...and Marable has asked a question rhetorically, Why have historians of a Black movement done so little research on the post-war period? In other words, scholars have done work at least in terms of the nature of the Freedom Movement activities. We've seen it at least in terms of _Eyes on the Prize_. But there's still a forgotten period in terms of the history. And the forgotten period is usually the years from '45 to '54. We have an idea list in terms of what took place or what didn't take place during World War II. But we still don't necessarily know what took place in the years between '45 and 1954. And that's what I'd like to use as the context of my remarks today. In part, to look at the Hughes comment and the Marable comment. Because on one hand Hughes is talking about an accelerated or greater protest that is marked by vigor and energy. Marable is talking about events taking place in the United States that were seen to retard the nature and the development of African-American protests. Are these two comments, the one by Hughes and the one by Marable, antithetical? Not necessarily, but at least in terms of both looking at the events that took place between '45 and '54, and at least in terms of what took place and what didn't take place. We know now, and it's only suggested in the clip on _Eyes on the Prize_, that boycotts weren't new, that boycotts had been a part of African-American protest activities against segregated facilities going back to the eight-going back to the late 1890s and the first decade of the twentieth century. For example, shortly after the Supreme Court instituted Plessy vs Ferguson or, let's say, or Mississippi vs Williams which would set segregation in place, there were protest efforts. And African-American throughout the South decided to protest. However, quite obviously the legal conditions weren't such to sustain such protests. But there were protest activities that took place in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and New Orleans, Louisiana. Even Montgomery itself, in the first decade of the twentieth century. However, these protests weren't noted, but they were still part of a tradition of protest. And as Aldon Morris, the sociologist, has recently reminded us, the Montgomery bus boycott was not the first successful protest of the post-war period. People of Montgomery were fully aware of what had taken place in Baton Rouge three years earlier. And one could argue that the aims and goals of the demonstrators in Baton Rouge were far more radical than the aims and goals of the Montgomery Improvement Association. However, there was something about the climate that was starting to gel in the post-war period that would allow Baton Rouge first and then Montgomery to take hold on the national consciousness. What would be those factors? Judy's mentioned Vincent Harding, and you've read the excerpt of Vincent Harding. Vincent Harding in his works would-as Judy pointed out, does use the metaphor of the river, at least in terms of protest activities being marked by a river. And his first book, _There Is a River_, would chronicle African-American protests up until the end of the Civil War. And the work that he's doing now would be part of what he would call, "The Other American Revolution," at least in terms of protest activities of African-Americans and how they've shaped other forms of protest activities throughout the world. As many of you might know, Taylor Branch's book, his is entitled _Parting The Waters_, I would like to take license and to use both, both Harding and Branch, at least in t-since both of them are using the analogy of water at least in terms for a form of protest. What is it about the river that would lead to the parting of the waters? And the metaphor, what I would like to suggest for my remarks will be something astir in the waters. Something astir in the waters. The stimuli for Freedom Movement activities from 1945 to 1955. What would it be that's in the waters of race relations on the national level and as well as the international level that would set the stage for what will take place during this critical and most crucial decade? First of all, to understand the events between 1945 to 1955, we probably ought to enlist at least several factors that would lead to the beginnings of gradual changes in race relations that will become more apparent in the late 50s and the early 1960s. First of all, there would be the development of the civil rights consciousness among an increasing number of White northerners. The development of the civil rights consciousness among an increasing number of White northerners. I'm using the term civil rights deliberately, and because these individuals were not necessarily talking about freedom or empowerment but civil rights within the context of the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to the Constitution. And it's being framed in a legal and moralistic argument that would be the nature of, let's say, the beginnings of White interests in what had then been seen as the quote-unquote, "negro problem." But we're starting to see the development of the civil rights consciousness among an increasing number of White northerners, particularly liberals and particularly intellectuals. Secondly, the civil rights movement as defined by Wh-by intellectual-by White intellectuals and the Freedom Movement as defined by African-Americans who'll become part of domestic political agenda of the late forties, early 1950s. The civil rights and/or Freedom Movement would be part of a domestic political agenda in the late forties, early 1950s. It will not win victories, let's say, in the late forties and the early 1950s in terms of legislation, but it'll set the part for how political parties will respond to what will become national issues. Thirdly, the Freedom Movement will become an international issue. The Freedom Movement will become an international issue that will be linked to liberation movements on, in Asia and in Africa. And fourthly, we have to look at the stirrings that are taking place within the African-American community. The stirrings that are taking place within the African community. Very briefly, just to look at the development of the civil rights consciousness. As one of the results of World War II, there's the fact that there had to be-racism had to be repudiated. If the United States had entered World War II to fight against what was perceived to be racism of the German variety, how then, an increasing number of White intellectuals would argue, could the United States justify its own behavior towards its citizens of color? So, consequently, one is starting to see an increasing contact among White Americans with African-Americans in the context of the, of the nineteen-late 30s and into the early and mid-1940s. One is starting to see the development of organizations that will be different from the nature of Black and White organizations that had existed in terms of brotherhood activities, but to start to see the existence of organizations that was taking-let's say, in the context of the 40s, a more active role in terms of race relations. You'll see the development of the Southern Council for Human Welfare in the, in the late 1930s which will continue into the 1940s. Virginia Durr, who wasn't identified on the screen last night, but Virginia Durr, the White woman from Birmingham, Alabama, will be a member of the Southern Council for Human Welfare. She will grow up as a privileged White female in Birmingham, fully acceptable to racial mores of Birmingham. Her racial views will be challenged. She will tend to reject harshly some of the racial views, she'll still hold on to some of her economic and class views, particularly in terms of Black/White relations, but in terms-she will start to support the concept of racial equality based upon her involvement in the Southern Council for Human Welfare. Virginia Durr did more than just taxi Black women back and forth to work. Virginia Durr and as well as her husband, Clifford Durr, were the couple that E. D. Nixon called to ra-arrange bail for Rosa Parks in 1955. You also see the formation of the Southern Regional Council in Atlanta in 1944, as Black and White elites in Atlanta will start to come together to try and work out what they thought would be "Southern" responses to the quote-unquote "negro problem." You will also see more radical voices particularly the Southern Conference Educational Fund, SCEF as it would be called, that will become active in the late 1940s in reaction to what it would argue is the more moderate f-activities of the Southern Regional Council. In other words, you're starting to see the beginnings of increasing contact between Black and White Southerners around issues about how to improve race relations either moderately or more radically in ter-in the context of racial liberalism. In other words, the concept of liberalism will be undergoing change and you'll see people who will now be liberals on questions of race. That the New Deal initiatives were not enough because the New Deal did not speak to race. But you'll have to deal with the questions of racial liberalism in the context of a changing economic order and a changing world order. Unfortunately, there will be shortcomings to this, and these shortcomings will be seen in Gunnar Myrdal's book, _An American Dilemma_. _An American Dilemma_ is seen as a classic case study of American race relations. And it is, but it's woefully dated and it's dated for the context of the era in which it was written. For example, Myrdal's book will talk about race relations in the context of segregation being a moral evil. Segregation was a moral evil but there were also economic, An Amer-social, and political underpinnings to segregation that Myrdal didn't address. And consequently, early civil rights activists who will pick up on Amer-on _An American Dilemma_ and use that for the intellectual we-wealth pinning for the, for the era, will repeat some of the errors. For example, you don't hear, as Judy has already told you, discussions pertaining to economics and empowerment until the middle part of the 1960s. It wasn't part of the, it wasn't, it wasn't till the early to middle part of the 1960s. It wasn't part of the agenda of the late '40s and early 50s to talk about economic empowerment or to even talk about the roots, at least in terms of the roots of, of segregation other than from a intellectual and legal framework. So, therefore, you'll start to see the development of civil-that will be the first factor, the second factor would be the development of civil rights as a partisan political issue. By the mid to late 1940s, you'll start to see an increasing number of African-American who are registered to vote, and who are living in the Midwest, the Northern urban centers, and starting to move out to the Western, to, to, to the West -- Oakland and Los Angeles, and San Francisco. These individuals can vote. For whom will these individuals vote? And it's something that political leaders in both parties will have to take into account. Probably, many of us are so jaded that we can't remember that there was a time when the Republican Party had a decent-had decent views on civil rights, and the 1940s was such an era. And if one looks at the campaign statements of the Republicans in 1944-in 1940 and 1944, they're more advanced than what we would think that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was saying on civil rights. Remember, you don't see Roosevelt saying anything on civil rights, Eleanor, but not Franklin. But in other words, the Republicans are trying to recapture Black voters in 1940s, in the 1940s, and they're putting pressure on the Democratic Party to become more responsive to a constituency that the Democrats oftentimes take for granted. So, consequently, the Democratic Party will have to respond at least in terms of civil rights initiatives in the post-war era. And we can start to see this particularly by the 1948 election. Harry Truman is seeking election to the office in his own right having succeeded Roosevelt. And it is Truman who embraces civil rights, not because he's committed to civil rights, but because he recognizes, number one, the appeal that the Republican Party might have, or more particularly the appeal that the political left might have, particularly in terms of Henry Wallace. We tend not to look, at least in terms of voices on the, on the left, but voices on the left, were oftentimes attr-attractive to, to African-American spokespersons and a progressive party who would be one. Truman did get the bulk of the African-American voters. In part, because he, spurred by Hubert Humphrey, who had to take a more aggressive response to civil rights, and also because of the protests of African-Americans themselves. We tend to forget A. Philip Randolph and only see him as, let's say, a spokesperson for the brotherhood of sleeping car porters. But in the context of the 1940s, both in terms of the M-of the proposed March on Washington in 1941 as well as his efforts to desegregate the military by particularly, by proposing a boycott in late 1948. Randolph is putting pressure on chief executives to respond and we're starting to see the beginnings of organized pressure among African-Americans to make the federal government respond, particularly the executive branch of the government. You'll start to see Freedom Movement activities become part of international issues. The Cold War is starting to come about particularly as tensions are emerging between the United States and the Soviet Union. Racism will make the United States vulnerable to the charges of the Soviet Union and to, and to also the charges of spokespersons on behalf of liberation movements in Asia and in Africa. In 1946, for example, a State Department memo read: [reads] "The existence of discrimination against minority groups in this country has an adverse effect on our race relations with other countries. We are reminded over and over by some foreign newspapers and spokesmen that our treatment of various minorities leaves much to be desired. Frequently, we find it next to impossible to formulate a satisfactory answer to our critics in other countries." This memo concludes, "The more involved in world affairs the United States becomes, the more imperative grows the task of settling our own racial affairs." In other words, State Department officials, who oftentimes aren't seen as responding to domestic pressures are fully aware of the fact that there's a need for the Un-for the federal government to try and change its policies on the questions of race. And this is can be seen in 1952. The United States State Department submits a brief to the United States Supreme Court in support of school desegregation and the cases that are making their way towards the Supreme Court that would be collectively known as Brown. Now, why would the State Department support school desegregation? In part, because of brief with state. [reads] "The continuance of racial discrimination in the United States remains a source of constant embarrassment to this government in the day-to-day conduct of its foreign relations and it jeopardizes the effective maintenance of our moral leadership of the free and democratic nations of the world." If the United States were to be the spokesperson on behalf of the Free World, then the State Department argues that there's going to have to be changes at least in terms of United States government's policies on matters of race. This can also be seen, at least in terms of the activities of African-American spokespersons; conservative, liberal, or even more radical. And we tend to forget W. E. B. Du Bois and Paul Robeson, and particularly their activities. They were silenced during this era, yes, but they're important individuals at least in terms of stirring the consciousness not just of African-Americans in this country, not just in terms of progressives of all races in this country, but also in terms of stirring the, the image and the responses of lets-people in terms of liberation movements throughout the world. It's no accident that when Nelson Mandela spoke in Harlem two weeks ago, he paid homage to W. E. B. Du Bois and Paul Robeson. Why? Because those two individuals more so than a goodly nu-number of their contemporaries who were civil rights activists, committed themselves not just to liberation of African-Americans but for liberation struggles throughout the world. We must keep in mind that Du Bois criticized American as well as Western European exploitation of Non-White peoples in the Americas, in Africa, in the Caribbean, and in Asia. If we look at the K-if we look at the outbreak of the Korean War, W. E. B. Du Bois, as was his style, was oftentimes quite prophetic. In a petition that he wrote criticizing American involvement in the Korean War, Du Bois wrote: [reads] "Of all nations fit to arbitrate justly on the rights of darker people, the United States is the last, as fifteen million American negroes can testify." Du Bois went on, however. [reads] "Apartheid in South Africa was more of a threat to world peace than the hostilities in Korea, but," Dubois noted. [reads] "The only United States intervention there," talking about South Africa. "Is American capital pouring into our slave-manned mines," rather than in terms of sending troops to South Africa. Robeson would carry the, the same message and indeed Robeson had comments that would be similar to what SNCC, SNCC members would be saying in, in terms of the Vietnam War. Robeson noted in 1950, [reads] "No one has yet explained to my satisfaction what business a Black lad from a Mississippi or Georgia sharecropping farm has in Asia, shooting the yellow or brown son of an impoverished rice farmer." And Robeson argued, the war was being fought in Korea, "for the greater glory of General MacArthur, General Whoisit, and General Motors." But in order to get a sense at least in terms of what was taking place, we have to look to the expanded horizons and the expanding consciousness of African-Americans in the years between 1945 and 1954. The war years had seen the possibility, the possibility of some improvement and that, and the possibility of improvement generated the expectations for still more. And when expectations were dashed, you see a rising tide of protests. Quite honestly in hindsight, we're all familiar with the concept of rising expectations, that once demands-and that once one can see the beginnings of the possibility of improvement, it stirs people to act in s-terms to try and prod for more improvement. We're starting to see this become operative in the, in the years between '45 to '55. Very briefly, we see the accelerated migration of Blacks from the South. But also at the same time, we started to see the accelerated migration of Black Southerners from rural areas in the South to urban centers in the South. In the years between 1940 and 1954, 750 [sic] Black Southerners migrated from the rural South to urban Southern centers. Keep that in mind when we talk about where protests will start to take place in the South. And initially the ones that'll be, that'll capture attention will be in urban centers. We start to see economic growth particularly as the war has prompted the beginnings of changes at least in terms of the, as we start to see the beginnings of growing, social, and economic power of the Black working and the Black middle class. We start to see an increase in median income which would mean that people will have more money to donate to protest causes. One of the points and, that Aldon Morris reminds us at least in terms of the origins of the civil rights movement, who financed the Montgomery bus boycott? It wasn't Northern White liberals but it was people who went to church, who were giving their nickels, dimes, quarters, and dollars. That if people had more spending power, they could devote more money and also in terms of support and financing Black organizations. We're also starting to see the unionization of Black workers. For example, by 1946, there were approximately a half-million Black members in the South who are members of the AFL. And by 19-and by, at the same time, there are over one million dues-paying Black members of the AFL and the CIO. And remember they're separate, they're separate entities at this time located in the South. In other words, Blacks also have more allies in organized labor. Tensions, yes, but the beginnings of, of alliances. We're also starting to see an increasing number of Black men and Black women enrolled in post-secondary institutions. One point that hasn't been studied yet is the impact of World War II on Black men who served and particularly when people will come back and enroll in post-secondary educations. The GI Bill would provide a spur to allow Black men to go to college. What about the organized efforts of Black Southerners? We're starting to see organizations in Atlanta, in Miami, in Richmond, and Nashville among Blacks who are starting to organize Blacks to begin to register to vote. In 1940, approximately two percent of Blacks Southerners were registered to vote. In 1952, approximately twenty percent of Black Southerners were registered to vote. However, Black Southerners who were registered to vote, were largely individuals who lived in cities such as Atlanta where they could pay the poll tax and were perhaps there, there might've been a somewhat more moderate racial tone than particularly in terms of Alabama or Mississippi. But we're starting to see an increasing number of Blacks who are starting to register to vote. Many of these individuals will be Black veterans. And it's the many Black veterans among, among their first activities in terms of returning to the United States after service in World War II will start to register to vote. What about stirrings in local communities? Jo Ann Robinson points out in her autobiography that it was no accident that the Montgomery bus boycott took place in the city of Montgomery. And if we're familiar with what takes place in Southern cities, it's no accident that many of the protest activities will emanate in what would be known as college towns. You have Montgomery, Alabama, the home of Alabama State. Ralph Abernathy, a returning veteran, was a student at Alabama State. Jo Ann Robinson taught at Alabama State. The President of Alabama State gave subtle support to individuals engaged in protest activities. In Nashville, where Diane Nash was a student in the 1960s, you'll have Fisk University, Du Bois' alma mater. You'll have the American Baptist Institute where James Bevel and John Louis will be divinity students. You'll have Tennessee A [and] I. In Atlanta, you have the five colleges, you have the five colleges and it's no accident that Martin Luther King would be, would be a product of, of Morehouse where he heard the preachments of Benjamin Mays. Or Julian Bond would be a student at Morehouse where he will hear the preachments of Benjamin Mays. In Greensboro, North Carolina, you'll have North Carolina A [and] T and Bennett College. In Richmond, Virginia, you have Virginia Union University. In Baton Rouge, you have Southern University. In Tuskegee, and s-keep in mind it's not only the urban South. You'll have protest activities even by people at Tuskegee a school that generally deemed to be in the tradition of its founder, Booker T. Washington. Moreover, even in the State of Mississippi, you're starting to see protests. It's no accident, for example, that Medgar Evers will enroll at Alcorn A [and] M. We still don't know the full story but, for example, there's something taking place at Black colleges during this time period that will s-that will sow the seeds for what will take place and will more fully erupt in the decade of the 1960s. What about the role of Black churches? Oftentimes, for example, some people will argue and that some sociologists have argued that Black churches have been apolitical. But quite obviously the research since has shown their leadership role. For example, Taylor Branch's book has-talks to the importance and particularly the importance of Vernon Johns in terms of Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery. In Atlanta, not just Benjamin Mays but you also have Martin Luther King, Sr., and John Wesley Dobbs who will be active political figures. John Wesley Dobbs is the grandfather of the current mayor of Atlanta, Maynard Jackson. In Baton Rouge, you'll have T. J. Jemison, who'll be the originator of the boy-of the bus boycott in that city. But even in terms of the rural South, for example, Clarendon County, South, South Carolina, it's Dr...it's Reverend Joseph Delaine, who will approach the NACP about the possibility of allowing Clarendon County to be one of the test sites for the Supreme Court's decision in Brown. What about the role of Black newspapers? It's no accident, for example, that the _State Press_, one of the prominent Black newspapers in the State of Arkansas, was op-was operated by Daisy Bates and her husband L. C. Bates. Daisy Bates was president of the Arkansas Chapter of the NAACP and as you, and if you've seen _Eyes on the Prize_ I, the series on Little Rock, she is the person who will help initiate the suit that would allow the nine Black students to attempt to, to desegregate and then to enter Central High School in Little Rock. We've talked about E. D. Nixon in the role of Black labor. But what of rural Southerners? There's been a tendency oftentimes by some scholars to argue that protest activities particularly among African-Americans emerge from the elite. Quite obviously the individuals who will take part, many of the individuals that I've taken part, that I've mentioned already were individuals who were privileged at least in terms of educational attainment. But, but one of the points we still have to study at least in terms of scholarship on a nature of protest activities are those protests that emanate from below. There was something going on in Montgomery. There was something going on in Mississippi. And I think we need to focus more attention in terms of Mississippi between 1945 to 1955 to perhaps counter the myth that Mississippi was a closed society. A racially intolerant society, yes. But there are still protest activities going on. Defiance. Medgar Evers' father was a person who took nothing from no White man and he instilled that tradition in his sons, Medgar and Charles in particular, to stand up for their rights and to, and never take anything, from someone who was White. We have to look at the role of Amzie Moore, for example. Amzie Moore and, and its, although he's generally seen an individual who invited Bob Moses to come to Mississippi, and then to organize at least in terms of Greenwood, Mississippi, we still don't know and have a full and complete picture of what Amzie Moore did and what he meant. He's a person that you'll see very briefly at least in terms of _Eyes on the Prize_ I. But even a lit-the liter-even the most recent book on SNCC by Clay Carson does not do full justice to Amzie Moore. Howard Zinn does a better job in terms of treating Amzie Moore than Clay Carson. But in terms of Mississippi, for example, what was it that was taking place that would lead to the emergence of a Anne Moody. What was it in Mississippi that would lead to the emergence of Joyce and Dorie Ladner? What was it in terms of Mississippi that might have led to the emergence of a Marion Berry? What was it in rural Alabama that might have led to the emergence of a John Lewis? We need to know, for example, where these individuals got their impetus to later become involved in the movement activities. These individuals were horrified by the killing of Emmett Till, that is true, because Emmett Till was someone who was, who was very near their same age. But at the same time, there might've been something going on in Black churches in the Black Belt at least in terms of Black high schools in the Black Belt that we don't yet know, that would lead to the emergence of younger people who, seizing upon the opportunities, would become activists in the, in the early 1960s. Moreover, there are protests that are initiated by the quote-unquote "rank and file." Very few people remember what took place in Fayette County Tennessee in 1959. But what took place in Fayette County in terms of a boycott was something that took place before the emergence of SNCC as an organization or before SCLC as an organization became more active. This was a effort by individuals such as John McFerran and Hartmann Jamison, probably names that none of you have ever heard. But at least in terms of two Black men who saw a chance to become involved to try and bring changes to improve the living standards and the quality of life for poor Blacks living in Fayette County, Tennessee. In other words, the waters are astir, something's going on. We, we still have to understand what was going on before we understand the process that would lead to the parting of the waters. But more explicitly for the St. Augustine campaign of 1964, the wading in the waters. But things are taking place. Thank you.

You haven't mentioned the Black Women's Movement.

Sure. Quite obviously, just in terms of what's taking place with, with the Montgomery, in terms of the, of the Women's Political Council. Also, what have, the, Jo Ann-

Weren't they also in the rural areas organizing? Go ahead. I'm sorry.

No. Go, go ahead and follow up. I was largely confining my comments just in terms of up to 1954. Yes, the, the, we, we see that at least in, in a, for example what Daisy Bates is doing in terms of organizing on behalf of the NAACP in, in Arkansas. As Judy mentioned at least in terms of, of what Ella Baker had done in the 1940s in terms of being a secretary of branches for the NAACP and traveling. What's also taking place at least in terms of what Rubie Hurley is doing in terms of the NAACP and being director of the branch of, of, of, the Southern Regional office of the, of the NAACP. What some Black women are doing is being heads of, let's say, local branches of the National Urban League as we, well as being heads of local branches of the NAACP. Yes, or even in terms of what some of the sororities are doing. There's, there's good, for example, the, many of the women in sororities in the late 1940s, early 1950s will take it upon as their service work to help individuals, let's say, pass a literacy test to register to vote, to help to raise money to help people pay the poll tax. Yes, there's a wide variety of organizing oftentimes that's not noticed. In terms of the scholarship or at least in terms of the, all the, all the impressions of the nature of movement activities among and women.

That just leaves the church. I mean, the background of the church, the Black, the church period let alone the Black one has always been the woman and I think it's important to, to begin to change that. [coughs] To begin to, [unintelligible] you just made is it isn't recognized historically and I think we're here, bottom line, to be looking at how we create curriculum and how we teach people that's one of the things we can begin to change, is to really acknowledge the role of the Black woman and women in general, in terms of the civil rights movement.

There's a growing tendency, unfortunately, in some of the literature that talk about this nature of sexism in the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement was sexist and there's no denying that. But I think at the same time to only talk about sexism and not the talk, at least in terms of the restrictions imposed upon women, and not to talk about what women did for themselves, does a disservice to women activists. For, you can see the, the scenes at least in terms of Montgomery or Albany. Men might be in the pulpit but who's in the audience? Who's doing the walking? And I think if, if one only focused upon the restraints imposed upon women and not talk about the, the efforts of women to liberate themselves, consciously or unconsciously, in terms of movement activities, does a disservice to the memory and the legacy of all individuals involved in the mo-movements for social change.

In those early stirrings. Is there anything there that would-?

I'm sorry, I can't.

In the early stirrings that you were, that you were talking about, what is it that pre-disposed the movement to accept nonviolence as opposed to a violent approach to change?

There are some individuals who were starting to become familiar at least in terms of the works of Gandhi and particularly at least in terms of theologians. For example, people in Ala-people in, in Atlanta, and it was, there were quite a few members of the, the Inter-the Interdenominational Theological Center which is one of the schools in, Atlanta who have become familiar in terms with the teachings of Gandhi. Some of these individuals were impressed with Gandhi's meth-methods. And I think if you read the literature about King, that King himself was not really a passifist or adherent to nonviolence until Bayard Rustin had committed King to the efficacy of nonviolence in the wake of the, of the Montgomery Bus Boycott. But there's, there's familiarity at least in terms of, of, with of Gandhi's strategy and particularly since India is newly independent.

Let's take a break here and hold the questions and come back. Let's take a ten-minute break. Men's room is upstairs, women's room is right here. The coffee is ready. So, ten minutes, come right back, and we'll continue this conversation.

-Nkrumah or who knew Azikiwe in Nigeria. So, they were on a first-name basis at least in terms of what the masses might've thought in terms of decolonization movements. The mention in terms of African-American newspapers in the South, again, could largely be what was said by the editors. We really don't know fully in terms of what the masses of the-were thinking. That's one of the research projects on which I'm working right now. Because my area of expert-my area of expertise at least in terms of looking at the attitudes of African-Americans towards foreign policy issues in particular, at least in terms of the post-colo-the post-colonial period. And one of the points I'd like to look at is at least in terms of the linkages that might have been made in terms of, and particularly in the late forties and the early fifites among the masses. There's a article I think that's in one of your readings that I put in by Judith Rollins who is a sociologist at Simmons College. As she sites the experiences of a Mr. Jones, unnamed, she doesn't give a first name. But Mr. Jones was commenting on the Bandung Conference of 19...of 1955, which led to the concept of nonaligned movements where newly independent nations in Asia assembled with delegates and from, let's say, colonial movements or anti-colonial movements in Asia and in Africa in Bandung in Indonesia, White Americans were barred and the only African-American who was allowed to speak before that group, the group in a official government capacity was Adam Clayton Powell. And sh-sh-sh-Rollins will site in her article, for example, the, the, the importance of what this conference meant to a Mr. Jones at least in terms of what the colored people all around the world were doing. Richard Wright was a commentator f-on this conference and he, he would write a book on the Ban-on the Bandung Conference. So we, we know at least in terms of what some of the elites and intellectuals within the African-American communityn but how these views really filtered down to the [coughs] masses we don't really know. And again the, foreign policy questions and how African-Americans responded to foreign policy questions is one of the burgeoning fields at least in terms of the historical literature. So, perhaps two years from now I can have a better answer for you.

Just, I was wondering if I could just plug in to something on that. One of the things that people used, may not know is when we came up with that one-man, one-vote slogan, when we started the Mississippi Project was that we had gotten that from the independence struggles in Africa. And that there had always been the link that, that Gerald is talking about that Julian, and I mention Julian again because his father was the president of Lincoln University in Pennsylvania. And he always talks about all of the people like Nkrumah, like, all the folks who became the leaders in their own countries, coming through Atlanta, coming through Lincoln because a lot of those folks were educated at Black universities, the Black colleges. And I remember a specific incident when we, we were, it was before we started to sit in at a place in downtown Atlanta and Jim Foreman, who was the executive secretary of SNCC, was always an Africanist, always talked about the struggle and, and the related struggles between what we were doing here and over there. And Oginga Odinga, who was then the foreign minister, I guess, of Kenya, had come into town as a State Department tour. And he was staying at the Heart of Atlanta which was a segregated hotel for only White people. And that was, of course, at a time when they would allow Africans to stay and not us. But because they somehow thought that they were less threatening. But anyway, so, he was staying at Heart of Atlanta. And the State Department never mentioned SNCC in its tour, so, we never got to see them. But Foreman, because of his contacts, contacted Oginga Odinga and a group of us, and I guess there was an exec committee meeting, or something at SNCC at that point. We all went down to this hotel. And Oginga Odinga came down to the lobby, and this is 1963, it was December. And we started talking and he talked about what was going on in his country, and we were talking about the freedom struggle in southwest Georgia and what we were doing and stuff. And then, suddenly, we break out into these freedom songs in the middle of this segregated hotel. And, and it was just this wonderful feeling. Of course, the State Department guy is looking really very frightened and stuff, but it was a wonderful moment for us. You know, because we really understood the connection. And then, of course, then he went back up to his room. Foreman said, Oh, you know, since we're down here, why don't we go sit in? So, we all went next door. [laughs]

Since we're here, you know. And all went next door to the Toddle House, and sat in and they came and they took us all away to jail. But-

-the end piece of that by the way is the image that I have of, what is, Bobby Yancey who is now-was an old SNCC person-well all SNCC people are old now, but anyway-a SNCC person who is now a development officer at the Schomburg in Harlem. And she had this fake fur and so as the people are taking her away to the van, she's saying, Watch the fur. Watch the fur. [laughs]-

-There was always that connection.

Gerald?

Yeah?

I would think, this is also a pick up on that, that you know we should not forget that the churches always have had missionary wings. And many of the people from the various churches have always done various kinds of service in Africa, and more specifically toward Liberia, but in many other places as well, for many, many, many years. And so, I would think that through that kind of contact and that context of the church that many, if you will, of the lay parishioners had knowledge of Africa to what extent it was a direct relationship between that and the civil rights movement per se or the Freedom Mo-Movement is something to look into. But I would say that that is a resource that we've got.

You're right. Particularly at least in terms of the Baptist Church and, and the Lott Carey society. I grew up as a Baptist. And I remember we had to put donations for, for the work of the, foreign missionaries. But also in terms of, for example, Max Yergan, before he became a right wing, right-winger was head of the YMCA efforts in South Africa in the 1930s and the 1940s. And that's how he became interested at least in terms of Pan-Africanist activities. So, there is, there is this linkage that's taking place. But again it remains to be seen. And I speculate the linkage is more, is more in terms of the masses but I just don't have the real evidence right now and, but, the, the concrete and sustained evidence at least in terms-but, the, the point that Napolean just made, for example, is clearly a valid one and would, and would help to elucidate the points that have already been made.

Well, the AME church I think is a prime example in the original links between United States Afro-Americans and the Africans. They sent missionaries right after the Civil War to Africa and actually were the beginnings of the idea that Black is beautiful in the, at the end of the 1800s. And Bishop Allen continued that concept, which still exists.

What tie-ins, if any, would you make-

I'm sorry. I can't hear you with, with the fan.

What tie-ins, if any, would you make between Black women's experience in the women's movement pre 1960s and their, and then the experience of the, and, and their experience in the sixties and fifties civil rights activities?

OK. And that was also a point that was raised, I guess, during the intercession. If one looks at the experiences of, let's say, Black club women or at least in terms of the experi-particularly in terms of the, the National Council of Negro Women and particularly Mary McCleod Bethune and the network of Mary McCleod Bethune and the club, club movements throughout the country.

And Dorothy Height. Dorothy Height.

And, and continued by Dorothy Height. Now, there was an ex-they clearly linked the question of civil rights and at least in terms of thoughts or improvements for, for African-American women that although the feminism of Mary McLeod Bethune is oftentimes slighted at least in terms of not being stressed in some of the literature. She was also be someone who would criticize the male leadership among African-Americans for not fully speaking out at least in terms of issues dealing with gender. It's interesting that Mary McLeod Bethune would be generally seen as the quote-unquote "head" of the Black cabinet, the Federal Council on Negro Affairs during, during the 1930s. And she was oftentimes referred to as Ma Bethune. So, she exercised a, a proportionate influence at least in terms of the activities of male leaders in the context of the 1930s but she was also chiding male leaders for, in terms of their insensitivity to gender issues. Pauli Murray would clearly be an individual who will come of age in 19-in the late 1930s and the early 1940s. And what's interesting is the fact, this is one of the little known, the little-known episodes, but I got my PhD from Howard. And one has to understand the role of Howard in terms of many, in terms of many protest activities. For example, among the first sit-ins that took place would be the sit-ins that took place at Howard in Washington, DC, in the 1940s. These were coordinated by women, in part because men were in the military service and the majority of students at Howard in 1942, 1943, and 1944 were women. Pauli Murray who was one, I think, she was the only female student at the Howard's law school with I think a woman by the name of Ruth Mormon who was from Boston and Juanita Morrow who was married to Wally Nelson and lives in Deerfield and is a long-time activist. They staged a sit-in in terms of a restaurant on Fourteenth Street in Washington, DC, that was refused to, to refused to serve African-Americans. So, clearly, one's starting to see the protest activities in terms of African-American women which are linked and were always linked with questions of gender, questions of race, and increasingly with questions of class. Because you also start to see the beginnings of networks, at least in terms with the African-American elite women with African-American working class women. And some of the research of some of my peers would suggest that oftentimes that the, the female leadership was less devoid of the partisan and political tensions as the male, of the male leadership. That you don't see the tensions taking place, let's say, between Mary Church Terrell and Margaret Murray Washington as you would see between Booker T. Washington and W. E. B. Du Bois. That seemingly it was a more of a, in terms of a ideological consistency and working together of women. They might have disagreed on oth-on issues, but they were first and foremost in terms of club, of, of club activities and, and activities for the quote-unquote "uplift of the race" which is the slogan of, of the National Association of Colored Women, there was always a sense of unity. Now, one of the problems is the fact that oftentimes that the s-White feminists, and I'm using them in terms of women who might've been affiliated with the National Women's Party, oftentimes did not speak to concerns that were fully pertinent to African-American women. So, consequently, Alice Paul who was the spearhead of the National Women's Party throughout the twenties and into the thirties would have a real blind spot at least in terms of gender considerations. And there was not necessarily the, let's say, the, the working relationship between Black feminists and White feminists where one might see the nature of cooperation in terms of the 1930s and the 1940s might've been with White women who were active in the, in pacifist organizations such as the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. And Black women were also involved in the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. Mary Church Terrell, for example, and, and, W, and WILPF would always have a section that would deal with race relations which was always headed by a Black woman that would try and spur WILPF and, and the many of the women within WILPF who might've been, let's say, Quakers, to be more sensitive to questions of race. For, for the period 19-let's say, 1960s, obviously, many of, and, and Judy can talk firsthand at least in terms of about, in terms of the experiences and also the tensions that might've taken place among Black and White women in SNCC, and also to the degree in which Black, White women sought empowerment within SNCC. At the same time that would allow several of these White women members of SNCC who would also become active, active, at least in terms of the organizing of the, of the women's movement in the late sixties early 19-early 1970s. For example, Casey Hayden, Tom Hayden, who was then married to Tom Hayden or, let's say, Mary King, Jane Stembridge, and other White women within, within SNCC. And, really, to look at SNCC that one can argue that SNCC, at least in terms of all the civil rights organizations, or all the organizations involved in the Freedom Movement was the most egalitarian as well as the most far-reaching in terms of all aspects of it's program, and the one that was the most gender-sensitive, and the one that's oftentimes been criticized also for gender insensitivity. I hope that's, that's probably a round-about way to your, your question, probably. But I hope I've attempted to answer the question. I have a habit of lecturing.

Additional questions? All right. Let's hold. OK.

Can, can you comment a little bit on the notion of Black people as being a patriotic, law-abiding people? And as a result of the center in this post-war era as a result of the Brown vs. decision perhaps that may have been some of the impetus that brought the grassroots, regular people into the movement. Because as the Supreme Court is the Supreme Court and the law of the land had really from that point down supported segregation in every aspect. With the change in education, without even understanding the Supreme Court or the Constitution, it allowed, because of the media coverage and the hoopla it allowed a lot of people to feel that they knew that things had been unjust that had been done to them, but now the law even says that it's unjust even if our local governor, our local mayor, and those people won't accept it that the higher-up law says it's unjust and so now we can become a part of this movement. If that is in fact what happened.

To a degree, it's what happened at least in terms of from, let's say, when the movement and, would become particularly, let's say, post-'55. You can even see that at least in terms of that poster, _Eyes on the Prize_, that the American flag became a ally of the civil rights movement and you'll see that the civil rights activists particularly in terms of marches and demonstrations in the early 1960s, will carry the flag. That, I think it's the Jackson-it's following the death of Medgar Evers in 1963, and if you remember that episode for _Eyes on the Prize_ I, you'll see demonstrators who were protesting the, the killing of Medgar Evers and they're carrying the American flag. And you'll see a White police officer taking the flag from Black demonstrators. It was a conscious effort at least in terms of this, of the civil rights leadership. At least in terms of to embrace American values. Well, what started to happen is the fact, and it's the point that Judy made in terms that there were people in SNCC who were always questioning in terms, into what will we be quote-unquote "integrating?" And, and particularly it's one of the critiques that SNCC will start to raise in '64 and when they'll start to say, What happens when you get the right to vote, and then in the Democratic Party, you get the right to vote for George Wallace or James Stennis. It's that type of critique that then people will start to question the values of the larger society. But in the period from '55 to '64, there are clearly efforts to try to become part of the larger society and to use the emblems and the symbols of the larger society as a means to prove the legitimacy of the protests and also, and also to embrace one's self within some of the symbols and emblems of the, of the, of the country as a whole.

Yeah. Follow up question would be, I guess, your opinion perhaps. And maybe Eyes II will deal with this. The whole issue of the pursuit of the American dream has this, and what impact the, for those who perhaps, in some way, feel they have attained it on whatever terms, they're own or others. What, to what effect that has caused the disbursement that has taken away from the, and we keep going back to seeing the collective, collaborative efforts of a Southern movement so to speak. However, organized through the church, grassroots, but collective history that they've had in one place of people with the history in once place and time. And now with sort of that pursuit following, probably '64, of the American dream and some of the-we were talking here, about some of the people who have placed themselves and maybe perhaps been co-opted, the disbursement now of our leadership and talent perhaps because of the pursuit of the American dream. I don't know if that was clear.

No, I understand, its terms, what it meant is affected. However, one would interpret what the American dream would be individually or collectively allowed people to act in terms upon their own values or perhaps their own wishes.

-feel good about American legal history. The constitution works, so to speak. How do you do that with Eyes II? How do you talk about what happens to the American flag?

Exactly. And it's, it's funny because I guess if you saw, if you saw _The New York Times_ on July 4th there was a front page article talking about resurgence of patriotism among African-Americans. I have a hard time-I don't stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm still a product of the late 1960s. I don't know the last time I sung the national anthem. Yet, yet I have defined a sense of patriotism for me which would allow struggle for, which would allow continued involvement in struggle to be seen as patriotic in terms, but it's a question at least in terms of what does, patriotism goes beyond more than symbols. So, therefore, in terms of what happens to the flag in terms of, and how the flag is then used, particularly by crass politicians in the late sixties, seventies, eighties, and now into the nineties to try and bring about charges against-of let's say, quote-unquote "unpatriotism." And how do you teach that? Particularly, and particularly how do you teach that if you're in New Hampshire? Because I was, I gave a presentation in New Hampshire for school teachers who were, their school districts didn't even have Eyes in them because there some members of the school board who didn't want Eyes I used. And it's something that we're all, we're, now that's one of the luxuries that I do have at least in terms of being a college teacher, that I don't have to report to, to anyone. But at the same time, for example, how do you, what do you have to do, is you have the department chair who is hesitant or reluctant to order Eyes, Eyes I and particularly, Eyes II with a school board or school committee if you're teaching in a conservative town that doesn't approve of the quote-unquote "subversive or un-American," what they would see as subversive and un-American tendencies of Eyes II? And it's just the, the larger question in terms of how does one deal with the issues contained in Eyes II? Which, because Eyes II is not a morality play.

Which is a great segue into where we want to go in just a few minutes. I'd like to thank Gerald for this-

I'll, I'll be around for most of the week so I'll be more than happy to talk to anyone individually.

OK. How about three volunteers coming forward. Three volunteers. [laughs] I've got my three. I've got my three. Would you pass these out to people first and then you come back, because you get a reward for passing these out.