SECOND STICKS, SCENE ONE.

Q: OK. Let's start off by um describing to me the early Nation. Um, your father's just come out of prison, he's got a vision for the Nation. Talk about what it is and how he begins to start transforming. In other words, once a very isolated into a Nation into something that's much more open.

astronomy, uh the distance of planets from each other, the distance of planets from the sun, planets from the sun in our solar system, uh mathematics, simple mathematics, uh, uh some um maybe social study, but in the language of the Nation of Islam, uh, uh and um except for that, it was uh the myth of Yakoov's history. Uh, and uh the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, when he was in prison for about four years or better, obviously he kind a rethought everything, um, and uh when he returned he told the ministers that uh "We have to come out of that old idea." He called it the "Old Idea," of uh just um reading the Bible and reading the Koran, and reading lessons, he says, uh, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed says that we have to come outside, he said, and we have to face our people and invite them to something that they understand. He said we have to have business showing, a showing for some business development, uh and the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, after he was released eh, he uh brought a new atmosphere, a new en'-, atmosphere to the uh environment of the

Nation of Islam, uh and it wasn't long after that, that uh Malcolm became uh one of the ministers of the Honorable Elijah Mohammed.

Q: OK, let me, let me get, I want to get to that because when you say new vision, uh describe it to me, uh, give me, describe it to me, give me an, give me an image of what that new vision was you were talking, businesses you were talking about. What else did it um, give, give, give me a sense of what it was like.

mostly located in the worst parts of the African American or the black environment, you know, and uh he uh uh didn't want to see that uh condition remain, he wanted to change it, uh for us, for the Muslims, I'm not, I'm not speaking of non-Muslims now, I speaking of, for the Muslims. He wanted to see us come out of uh apartments that uh were not desirable, uh bad living conditions. He wanted to see us move our temples into better facilities, uh and he did it. Uh he began to locate the place, he located a place on Eighty, uh pardon me on Forty-third near cottage grove. Eight twenty-four East Forty- third Street, and that was the first decent place that I know uh of uh for meet'-, for meetings, for our meetings. Uh, we had uh rented uh from um halls, you know, Masonic Hall was on Forty, uh Thirty-ninth Street once, uh Masonic Hall Thirty-fifth Street, I believe, yeah. Uh, but this was the first building that we had and uh they cleaned it up, believe it or not, the building where we had the first decent temple was a dog house, it was dog po'-, a place for dog pound, dog

pound. Animal, animal hospital or dog pound like, and um, the smell was there but he had the courage to send the brothers in there. They cleaned the place up and made it so nice, it was so attractive until when he moved from that place to the next place, he was able to sell it to a preacher for a ¢ hurch, he, the preacher brought it, bought it for a church. Um, the um, when I say change, I, I meant the changing hour focus from um, the lessons, uh documents of the Nation of Islam, uh to doing something practical uh to change our environment for the better. The environment of the desperate poor for the better.

MISC. CUT.

MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL ONE THIRTY-ONE ON SIXTY-FOUR. SPEEDING. OK. JUST GIVE ME THE STICKS, THEN. SOUND'S ROLLING? SOUND IS ROLLING. MARK. TWO.

Q: OK. Talk to me, when Malcolm comes out of prison, how does he fit into this vision of a new Nation that your father's working on?

Q: Can you start again, we had a truck, start again?

Malcolm had. Um, [when Malcolm um joined the ministry, uh he was uh excited to do the exact thing that the Honorable Elijah Mohammed had began put emphasis, putting, putting emphasis on, and that was to see business growth uh, to see the youth of the Temple, uh and I was, uh one of them uh at that time, um take an interest in the future of the Temples, in the future of the Nation of the Islam, um and so the Honorable Elijah Mohammed began to introduce Malcolm right away tothe other ministers]. He would uh always have uh his uh staff meetings at his home in Chicago. His home was like headquarters uh and urn he would encourage uh myself, the younge'-, the youngest, the, the sons, the, the boys, uh who were ad'-, young adults to come to the table and join the staff. And we would sit there as uh just observers. Uh, and I noticed the Honorable Elijah Mohammed wasn't complaining as much as he had in the past when he would meet with his staff. He would complain, he says, "You all have to do more than just come out with a Bible and a Koran under your arm and read

lessons or quote uh, I'll teach from Bible and Koran," he said, "You have to go outside and meet our people in the streets and do something about the conditions. We have to have business, we have to have a showing of material progress." That's what he was pushing, and it looked like he was so impatient with them, they weren't responding enough, but with Malcolm, he was excited. [The Honorable Elijah Mohammed was relaxed, and he would point to Malcolm and, and um, and would tell the um ministers,] whom at that time were mostly old, we say, I say oldfashioned now, who were mostly old-fashioned. Malcolm called them conservative, uh criticizing uh, their, their, their, their uh posture at that time. Um, uh he would uh say, ["You have to be like Malcolm." He says, "Talk what the people understand. Talk about the things that they know of, that they know are happening in their life." He says that uh, "Their condition is bad. Talk about their conditions." He says, "You have to go out and make a showing." He said, "Don't be satisfied to preach in those little holes

that you in, those little dog dark holes, find a better place for your temple." He says, "Our people will never respect us and notice us if we don't do things that uh, on the level of the white man." That's what he begin to tell and "We have, we have to do things like the white man, like the, on the level of white men uh to impress our people." The Honorable Elijah Mohammed stayed in that groove, actually, almost until he passed.]

Q: Now tell me, um, when um, Malcolm is coming to your house, when he, he's coming to your house, tell me your first, when you first, um, your first early memory of Malcolm and what he was like. You know, uh your, you describe him very, very vividly and what, at times, um, how you first remember him coming to your house as a young man.

Q: Tell me, tell me who we're talking about, "When you see ..."

Q: Let me start you again.

smile. And if he knew your name, had heard about you, he wou'-, he called my name, he had heard about me from others, he said, "This is Wallace." And uh, I, I, I smiled with him, I was happy to see him because I had heard about him, too. And uh, he said, "The messenger's son,] The messenger's son." And he was just so excited about the messenger, though um, uh really it wasn't just seeing Wallace, it was seeing the messenger's son, uh who was also uh, uh cut out uh pardon the uh labelled for the ministry. I don't say I was cut out yet for the ministry, but I was labelled uh to go into the ministry. Um, and [after, after you get an acquainted with him, and watching him, observing him at the table, I uh took a liking to him like most of the young men of the Temple of Islam did. Most of us, we were, we were attracted to Malcolm. ~h, he was uh, he automatically became like a leader for us, a model for us, a r'-, role model for us. Uh, he was an inspiration, a great inspiration for the uh young men and boys of the Nation of Islam.]

Q: Talk to me about, so, so he comes in, he sees a, he's got a, a different energy. Um, is there a different language that he starts using that um ...

the ministry. He would preach that, wherever he would go, he would preach that message.] That Elijah Mohammed is our modern Moses, uh this is uh Pharaoh's house, and um, and we are the children that's in bondage. That was his message, and he was very effective with that] um, in, in ministers uh who I guess feel a little, felt a little threatened because they were senior, senior, you know, for twenty years or more, his senior in the ministry. Uh, not just in years, uh, I think they felt a little threatened, but as I read that the expre'-, expressions on their faces, better than ninety percent of them admired Malcolm and liked him very much.

Q: How did the um, how did the Nation of Islam begin to change when Malcolm uh started to, to uh, when he, when he became this, the, the, the, the spokesperson who started opening temples and places, did it change dramatically or fast?

understand this um, Malcolm was uh, [Malcolm was the instrument. Uh, actually the energy was coming from the Honorable Elijah Mohammed to Malcolm. Uh, not only that, uh much of the language, in fact I would say all of the language, in essence, came the uh Elijah Mohammed. But Malcolm was more articulate, he, his ed'-, le'-, level of education was higher than the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, so uh he impressed the, the, the, the media, he impressed the public and the media more than the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, but he never was seen as uh someone who was more dynamic or more impressive than the Honorable Elijah Mohammed.] I'm, I'm saying this because [I know how the outside world saw it, saw those two people. Uh, inside, Ma'-, uh the Honorable Elijah Mohammed was always the, the source of Malcolm's energy, and also the source of his language, you know, the source of his message.] But Malcolm uh was uh successful in um um articulating in very simple ter'-, language uh the, the essence of the Honorable Elijah Mohammed's role and purpose, uh if not, if not his teachings.

Uh, he felt that the Honorable Elijah Mohammed's role was to lead us to a better life and to lead us away from the um dependency on white man. And he was correct. And um, Malcolm felt that um uh the Honorable Elijah Mo'-, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed uh loved each and everyone of us, very dearly, and uh he wanted to the followers, and uh our people to know that. And that's what he, he preached. [He preached that the Honorable Elijah Mohammed was our leader, and that the Honorable Elijah Mohammed loved us, uh and that uh God had missioned the Honorable Elijah Mohammed. And he was very successful in doing that. But also the Honorable Elij', uh the Malcolm um, uh didn't let the Honorable Elijah Mohammed's business interests down. He right away started to do something a'-, a'- about business uh to uh seek better facilities to operate in, to open uh restaurants in New York, uh and to encourage uh business development wherever he went.]

Q: OK. Um, how, how did um, how important was it for Malcolm started the Elijah Mohammed Speaks paper, um, the, the ...

Q: We just rolled out.

Q: I'll pick that up.

UH, THIS IS BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X UH SHOW EIGHT HUNDRED. CONTINUATION ON CAMERA ROLL ONE THIRTY-TWO, SOUND SIXTY-FIVE IS UP.

WE'RE ROLLING. MARK. THREE.

Q: Describe for me again urn Malcolm's work place uh for the paper when you, you were describing it for me.

that uh was just uh excited uh as a producer. He just wanted to produce, you know. And uh he would have pages plastered all around on his wall and uh notes, uh sheets of uh, sheets of paper which he was making notes on. He had those all over the wall, too, and the whole room was just turned into a, a workplace for the production of the paper. And he had a typewriter and he was typing with two fingers, but he typed very fast, very fast. Uh, just hearing him, you would think he was um, uh a professional typist. Um, and uh he, he, he wanted me to see what he was doing and um, uh, uh, uh, I, I appreciated the opportunity to see it because from that time on, I'd, I saw him as even a bigger man than what I was seeing before.] Um, [the paper um uh was thought to um have much more potential than what it was, than what was being realized. So the national staff um presented Elijah Mohammed uh with a plan to um really set up a big uh office in Chicago and uh do the paper uh on a big scale so it could be distributed nationally. It wasn't long that um Malcolm was no longer uh

producing that paper. That paper was uh being produced from Chicago, based in Chicago. Uh, but Malcolm continued for a while to give special attention to the production of the paper.]

Q: Now um does Malcolm eh begin to develop a, a public image and uh talk to me about how, what that public i'-, image is, how it be'-, how it is um, how much of it is, is, is, is um, what does, what does it begin to create in terms of a, an image of a nation and how people within the Nation begin to um, uh how um your father responds to that, to, to what Malcolm's status in public, as a public spokes'-, spokesperson um, in the early sixties.

uh he do, he didn't actually start that but he made it visible. Um, ministers other than uh ministers and captains, they would ask us to go out in the streets and recruit, invite people to come to the temple. Um, but [Malcolm, his energies was, his energy was so much greater and his personality was so much uh more in uh, more attracted and influential that he relies much greater success in bringing the FOI to come on the streets, to sell the pa, papers, to pass out circulars, uh to tell the people the, the passersby, the people passing by in the street, to tell them about uh the Nation of Islam, tell 'em about the Honorable Elijah Mohammed. So actually, he did a great deal to bring the ministry of the army of Elijah Mohammed's to the streets.] And uh in uh [Harlem is where it was um known that uh minister were would often be seen on the corner with a step ladder, preaching from a step ladder to the crowds in the f'-, in the street, you see. Uh, but not only that, Malcolm uh was a person who was very alert uh to capitalize on what was happening in the, in, in, in the African American community at

large.] Uh, if Powell would say something that he uh could uh pick apart, you know? He would take it apart, Adam Clayton Powell. Um, if um if the preachers uh, uh didn't respond the way he think they should have respond to some condition that was, some current uh, uh condition that was on African American people, he would come out and he would uh lash out at the preachers. So he was a public figure from the very sta'-, public uh person from the very beginning. And, and uh you know about the clashes that uh he had with the police department, and uh ...

Q: Talk to me, talk about one specifically. Do you remember the Hinton Johnson incident in New York in fifty-seven when he did bring in the, the FOI office to the street?

Q: Talk to me about that.

Q: Uh, talk to me specifically about the um, the Hinton Johnson incident because that was one that, that really kind of sparked a lot of, of attention in New York at the time.

Q: OK. You got to tell me who we're talking about.

authority. So Malcolm called them out, and when Malcolm said, "Disperse.", they dispersed. Uh, the police department was uh made very Jealous of that kind of power.]

Q: Um, picking up from that uh how um, so then, so is it, is the uh, is the, is the Nation of Islam growing at this time? Would it, what's, what's um, when we're moving into the sixties um there is a um civil Rights Movement that's beginning to emerge on the scene, the Southern Civil Rights Movement. Is Malcolm able to put that, use that, put that on the spot, and use that to, in, in relationship to the Nation, would it's doing? Talk to me how he does that.

Mohammed and, but um with uh the emphasis on business development, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed tied in the need for separate states, and I think he saw that as a chance for a separate economy. [He saw hope for a separate economy in America, a black man's economy in America. Uh, Malcolm capitalized on that and uh he would use incidents of uh violence and, and uh mistreatment by the uh police department um to uh get the attention of the, of the whites and also the attention of uh the blacks on the Nation of Islam as an alternative.]

Q: OK. Um, so in, in, in sixty-two there's another police incident around Los Angeles and um how did that fit into Malcolm, this, this whole thing of this continuing police brutality and ...?

Q: We just ran out of film, sorry.

Q: We'll pick that up.

UM MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL ONE THIRTY-THREE ON SIXTY-FIVE.

CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH UH ...

... MOHAMMAD. RIGHT. SPINNING. MARK. FOUR.

Q: Talk to me about the uh Los Angeles incident. Explain what happened and how this was an, an example of continuing police brutality. How Malcolm begins to bring home this issue of police brutality.

now. [That incident touched me somewhat differently than the one in uh New York. Uh, we learned that uh after they uh over-powered the brothers in the temple, uh one of the brothers had his hands in the form of surrender with his hands up, su'-, surrendering, and he was killed. He was just killed outright in the temple.] Um, my belief, my belief is that uh certain elements in police department eh at times of uh great a'-, uh progress, great excitement, enthusiasm in the Nation of Islam, enthusiasm in the Fruit of Islam uh for achievements on the part of the Nation of Islam. Of happy old Malcolm being at the pr'-, being our spokesman. Urn, uh putting all our energies behind Elijah Mohammed, you know. The Nation building spirit is strong in us. [I believe that at certain times, during the thirties, uh during the fifties, during the sixties, they chose, (unintel) elements become jealous, they become jealous of this kind of uh man, manly expression and independence expressed by a black radical, extremist group, and they come in to break your spirit. To beat you down

and break your spirit. And this, I'm just speaking personally now. My feeling was that they are um, they just came in uh not uh because uh, uh they felt that the Nation of Islam was any, a threat, but the to, but the spirit, that spirit of man, manly spirit, and independent uh kind of rn'-, mind that was building there, was uh, was something that was intimidating them, law enforcement. And law enforcement came in there to change the situa~ and put the intimidation on urn men of, therefore I of the FOI. That was my feeling.]

Q: Uh, do you, do you, do you have any i'-, any sense of how Malcolm felt about that incident as well?

with the police department, and Malcolm knew not to call by phone, not to do that, not to uh, he would just come out and uh let the Honorable Elijah Mohammed's office know that he was at the hotel urn, urn, at the airport, and there was something urgent he had to see him on. Uh, and he would come and visit the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, [Malcolm would visit Honorable Elijah Mohammed, and urn, he would uh right away let the Honorable Elijah Mohammed know that uh he cou'-, say, if say the apostle, you can depend us, you can depend on me. Say you have brothers that would die, say, we are ready. And it was always Elijah Mohammed uh who had to uh caution Malcolm and kind of urn bring him down a little bit, you know. Kind of bring, bring his excitement down a little bit. And Malcolm appreciated that, in fact, Malcolm once told me, he said, "You know, if it wasn't for your father," he said, "I probably would have of uh uh wrecked, wrecked, wrecked, wrecked uh, wrecked myself long time ago." Um, so he appreciated all that Elijah Mohammed having that kind of control on him.]

Huh, but uh something else I know as the son of Elijah Mohammed. I know that the Honorable Elijah Mohammed was just more cautious, and maybe more circumspect, and um maybe uh more conscious because he was the one feeding us all this, you know? Maybe he was the one who was more cautious, too. Um, but um he was a long way from being uh, a weak man. [The Honorable Elijah Mohammed uh, he would uh be'-, I, I could see hurt in him. He would be hurt so deeply when he heard that one of his followers were mistreated by a law enforcement, or hurt. And anger, hurt and anger would rest on his face. And I knew if he could do something about it, he would do it, you know? Uh, but he was a thinker. He would think it out. Um, but if it was left to Malcolm, I think we would have seen a lot of violent confrontation. Ha, ha, ha.]

Q: Let me come, Malcolm had a statement at that time about a plane crash being um, um a uh a message that would be of, of some sets of ret'-, not retribution, but a message

that, "Yes, you, you, you pay for what you do."

Q: Um, talk about that statement how ...

Q: Tell me what we're talking about.

in that miserable state, and keeping us in a miserable state, and uh, um though we were not equipped to demand uh justice from the white man or force him to give us justice, God was acting on our behalf. [So, Malcolm did no more of than what perhaps I would have done, um I don't know, but I say perhaps what I would have done, and what I believe, what I'm feel pretty sure that most of the ministers would have done, and that is say, "That was an act of God. That God, God broke brought the plane down, you know, for your mistreatment of the black man," Not thinking that, that l,lh some of those people on there are majoritals ies , people on the plane might per'-, perhaps have been uh friends of blacks, or friends of African American people. We don't know. But that we weren't trained to think that way, you know. Uh, it's just white and black, very much like uh the white man makes it. Why there's some of the, the, the elements among the white race, they'd do the same thing. They'd just make it white and black and you don't think of,

think about the, the uh shades between white and black.]

SPEEDING. MARK. FIVE.

Q: 'Kay, so I mean, we're still in, we're, we're still in 1962, and, and at this point the, the Nation as an organization, is doing quite well. Describe what, and, and even, and Malcolm as it's spokesperson, is doing, is doing OK. Um, uh how is that working together? I mean what is, what is the a, um, what am I trying to say here? How um, um, how is the Nation at that point? It's six'-, about 1962. Describe what, what condition it's in. Describe um, how it's doing.

we were um opening restaurants and grocery stores and seeing Moahammed Speaks paper, compete with uh other black papers and even, even out um, out uh rival certain black papers. Uh, uh a very popular black papers. Uh, we were seeing the Fruit of Islam now not just um going through exercises in some small facilities, uh, but we were seeing them in great numbers, hundreds of them on the streets of big cities like Chicago and, and uh New York and Los Angeles, we're seeing Malcolm um on television um uh and was happening uh, uh kind of frequently. Um, and uh we were proud of him. We were seeing him, in our opinion he was doing an excellent job of uh representing the Honorable Elijah Mohammed and the Nation of Islam. And he was defeating the opposition, in our, in our eyes, he was defeating the opposition. Uh, so we were realizing a lot of uh a, a'-, things happening that uh was uh favoring our spirit uh and our hopes then for the future] uh during that time. Malcolm was go'-, working very well with the Honorable Elijah Mohammed's uh economic program, with the

Honorable Elijah Mohammed's business program. Eh what I mean by working well with it, I don't mean that uh, although he worked with the program, I mean his contribution was working well with the, the other activities.

Q: So what, what's, what, what started to go wrong with Malcolm and the Nation? What began to be his ...

Q: Uh, we just rolled out of film.

THIS IS UH ONE THIRTY-THREE ON SIXTY-FIVE. SPEED. ONE THIRTY-FOUR ON SIXTY-SIX. ONE THIRTY-FOUR? NOPE. YEAH. ONE THIRTY-FOUR ON SIXTY-SIX, AND TAKE SIX MARK.

Q: OK. You were saying that uh, there, it became a problem for competition for the favor of Eli'-, for um the Honorable Elijah Mohammed and by the inner circle. Talk to me about that, and what did that, how, wha'-, what did that mean for Malcolm?

say being on top of practically all major activities, um corresponding with the Honorable Elijah Mohammed directly on all major concerns. Uh, I think they, they were acting correctly when, when they thought that that was just too much power and too much attention to be focused on one person.] Uh, it would uh hurt the image of the Nation of Islam. Uh, I believe they were correct but I don't think that it was done, the persons who initiated that kind of thinking in the staff, national staff, [I don't think they were motivated by that concern. I think they were motivated by jealousy. I think they resented uh Malcolm having that closeness with Honorable Elijah Mohammed and prevented him having all of that attention from the press.] Uh, um, and um that jealousy became um more serious as time went on eh to weaken the Malcolm as um, uh weaken that power, to kind of uh lessen his power, and um to uh, uh take him kind of out of focus, uh they would criticize him to the Honorable Elijah Mohammed. Uh, you know, if, if, if someone tell all your faults, everything you do

incorrectly, someone is telling it, and, and uh telling it on a regular basis, daily basis, and that's what was happening, they were reporting to Honorable Elijah Mohammed ? on Malcolm on a daily basis in Chicago at the headquarters. Uh they, I'm referring to the national staff now uh who was mostly there in Chicago. The national staff was in Chicago, except for maybe uh two other, two or three other people and they were just supportive of the national staff, they weren't seen as the national staff. Um, uh ...

Q: Who was, who was that inner circle?

Q: Who, who is that inner circle at that time?

and uh the staff, the secretarial staff of the Honorable Elijah Mohammed,] and the most um powerful one in theat next staff was be'-, below on the chief assistant. She was very powerful, she could um make ministers shake, you know. Um, so that, that was a, that was the circle of, of, of um, of power there in Chicago. Uh, but [we had certain persons outside of Chicago um that were in the, had direct communication lines to that stairff and they were seen as such strong support to their staff that I would say that they were all part of that national staff. Uh, uh they were hooked, uh, uh in that circle of power. Uh, that was kept in Capt. uh Joseph uh here in New York, Captain Joseph of New York, and a few others. Um, yes, but getting, getting, getting um, uh back to uh what developed, um, with certain ones being jealous of Malcolm's uh influence and his image bringing negative things all the time on Malcolm. You know, if you continue to carry poison, you gonna poison yourself. So uh maybe you started out, you were a little sick, you know, pretty soon you'll be very sick. So, I'm, I'm kind

of observant, I'm, I'm out of the picture so, so to speak. Uh, and I'm looking at them, and I'm seeing them getting, their becoming more poisoned, poisonous, and more poisonous, uh becoming more infested with jealousy uh and resentment uh and uh it, it was quite disturbing for me.] Um, [so I know that Malcolm's character was slandered and, and uh uh by persons in the national staff, uh and uh I know that um, there was a organized effort on the part of certain members of the national staff to discredit Malcolm in the eyes of the Honorable Elijah Mohammed. I know that, for a fact.]

Q: So when, when um, Malcolm makes the statement around the, the assassination of John F. Kennedy, is, is um, talk to me about that. I mean, this, um in fact all, everyone in the nation is told not to speak and Malcolm does. What, what, what, what happens then and, and is it because of what he says or things that are going on already that seem opportune?

Q: OK. Let's start again, tell me wha'-, what we're talking about. 'Cause if you use the, the marker of the, the Kennedy statement, then we know what we're doing.

Honorable Elijah Mohammed told them, "Leave this iss'-, leave this matter alone. It's too touchy, it's too sensitive. Don't bother." I still have to allow for Malcolm given that kind of reply and filling in that he didn't get into that problem, get into the matter, you know? He just gave a quick reply to a reporter. "It was a case of chickens coming home to roost." He had to, he had to come off well, you know, that was Mal'-, and I think he wanted to come off well for the Nation of Islam, for the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, for the Nation of Islam, as well as for himself, you know. I don't think he was a selfish person. um, uh now Malcolm perhaps would have handled the situation differently uh if he had not been made afraid of the national staff. Afraid of the national staff putting the muzzle on him. I think he was not uh seeing all the Honorable Elijah Mohammed putting the muzzle on him, he was seeing, of course at that time, he still had great faith in the Honorable Elijah Mohammed. Malcolm at that time, was seeing the national staff that was envy of, the envy of his

exposure, uh putting the muzzle on him, you know? And who knows, maybe he been even doubted that the orders that he was, communicated to him, was given to him straight. So, I have to allow for a lot of um, uh, for a lot of uh doubts on the part of Malcolm at that time. Doubting the order, was communicated clearly, and doubting uh, uh the support of the staff. Uh, you see they, he, he, had begin, become very suspicious of the staff. I know because he talked to me about these things. Malcolm didn't trust the national staff in Chicago.]

Q: Did he, at, at that time though he still felt very se'-, secure and um and in touch with the Honorable Elijah Mohammed and his support of, of him.

relationship with the Honorable Elijah Mohammed. I think at that time, he was feeling that.

Q: So how would, did, did he ever, did you, were you aware of him uh making attempts to try and, and, and uh, and fix that damage um after the silencing?

concentrate his uh attention on that. He would just leave it, and go on and just keep working. He, he, in fact, [he told me once, he said uh, um, "I let my work speak for me." And then he was referring to uh, um criticism of his performance, criticism of his intention more than his performance. See they were saying that he uh, he didn't mean well. They had began to say that Malcolm was not a well-meaning support, uh follower of the Honorable Elijah Mohammed.] That he really wanted to uh ...

Q: Uh, we just rolled out.

THIS WILL BE ONE THIRTY-FIVE, CAMERA ROLL ONE THIRTY-FIVE ON SOUND ROLL SIXTY-SIX.

SPEEDING.

Q: Let's just pick up there when you were saying that um, that you were talking about what they were saying about Malcolm not being a loyal supporter, um, tell me what you were saying. Finish that st'-, that statement.

Q: And make sure we know that we're talking about Malcolm.

of the Honorable Elijah Mohammed and in the um, uh Fruit of Islam, two too cap'-, captains and officers of the Fruit of Islam. But really they were, [they had began to organize a great force of FOI officers, and ministers to discredit and to uh, uh put a check on Malcolm, on Malcolm X. Um, Malcolm knew of that and at the time when he made the statement of the passing of the President's uh, uh President being a case of the chicken home, coming home to roost, uh at that time, he was aware of all that. So I, I would think that there were a number of things affecting how he answered, how he responded. Eh, and giv'-, and him giving that kind of response. Uh, um thinking perhaps, that "Yeah, they, they, they, they want to keep me out of focus, they want to kill me, they want to kill my presence in the paper, in the media, they want to kill my presence in the, in the, in the, in the Nation of Islam. Um, so I'm not going to ignore this. I'm going to respond to it, you know?" Uh feeling that he'll make up for it when he sees the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, he would will explain

it, and everything'll be smooth again, you know? But that wasn't the case as you know.]

Q: Now, people, I mean, it's, it's it's constantly talked about how the relationship that, that, that um Malcolm had with the Honorable Elijah Mohammed that they were, it was almost, it was almost like a, a ...

Q: ... kind of relationship. Um, did he feel confident about his relationship, that he could work it out with um ...

Q: Now, um, Malcolm is, is, is not only silenced, but then he's suspended. Um, and um there's a Savior's Day that comes up. This is right after um Mohammed Ali is, wins his fight, and then stays there that next February. Were you at that Savior's Day?

Q: You're suspected.

Q: OK. But you are, you are suspended from the Nation, too. Why, why, why are you suspended, as well?

time, I said I was innocent of the charges, but I was still excommunicated, I was put out of the Nation of Islam.]

Q: Um, and um but I, I believe Malcolm said that you did give him information.

me that uh he said, "I didn't want to see y'- I your father under that kind of pressure have to deal with that, and, and it was bothering me. " He said, I asked him, he said, I said, "The holy apostle, can I go to the door and, and speak to them." He said your father told me, "'Yes.'" He said, "I went there, and I went out, I went outside the door," he said he walked outside of the door, and he talked to these two secretaries, June and Olah. And he said he told them that, "I'll call you a cab, and uh if you will take a cab and take the babies home, the messenger will gets'-, get back with you later. He said they accepted. He called the cab, the cab came and took them away. [So I told him, "Yes." I say, "I know abo'-, I know about that," I say, "You can things but you, but, but you uh, don't want to see it, so you just blot it uh, block, blo'-, blot it out your mind." I say, "I'm aware of secretaries uh having that kind of relationship with my father. They ain't never with that children." I say, "I've seen him take that children." And, and uh

somewhere in my conscious I'm sure it was registering that that was his family. But I never accepted it to deal with it in my mind. Never did it accept to deal with it in my mind.] I, I wouldn't allow myself to think about it. So I was telling Malcolm, "Malcolm this." So we end up relaxing. He relaxed me, and I relaxed him. So we talked about it, you know, and [I told him, "Yes, well I have a concern." I say, "I think it's better that things like that be out in the open." I say, "Because it was, uh, it becomes gossip." I say, "More damage will be done." I said, "He thinks he's innocent, he .doesn't think he's guilty." I says, "He calls his wives and children." And I told him I said, "I know my father the way he talks." I said, "He think fulfilling a role of David or some prophet in the Bible."] Uh, uh, uh, uh I say, "That's the way he thinks." I say, "He feels that if just, just, if it's uh OK for David, it's OK for him, you know? That he's ,-answering scripture or something like that." [So we had a long talk eh but eh the charge that I gave Mal'-, Malcolm information on

the, on my father's situation, domestic situation is true but only after Malcolm had already told me that he witnessed that situation.]

Q: But when you, when you are suspended, I mean you, you stay low, you, you don't, it's not a matter of, of, of a really, of, of fighting, why does Malcolm engage in such a strong fight at that point. What is, what, what goes on at that point? That he seems to fight back.

Q: Um, um, let's cut.

Q: Um, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed public, um what did you feel when you did that? How did you, what did you feel about that one when ...

said, "Have you told the police?" I said, "Have you reported them to the police?" He said, "No." He said uh, "They're, they're part of it. They're behind it." And he didn't offer any proof to me. He just said that. Uh, and I was uh, I became even more angry with him. I said, "Well," I tell you exactly what I told him, I said, "Malcolm," I said, "if that's true, I said, if I was you, I would still demand that they do something about it," I said, "because that's their duty. To protect the citizen." I said, "To protect you against violence." I said, "Even if you think they, that way," I said, "you still should report it." He, he disa'-, he disagreed with me. On certain things we disagreed. And that was one of those things that Mal'-, Malcolm and I would disagree, and when he'd disagree he'd, he'd just, he'd lock up, he become silent. He wou'-, he would, he wouldn't talk no more about it. So that's what he did. He locked up, he wouldn't talk anymore about it. And he left me in a bad situation uh fearing for his life and seeing him doing nothing about it, but trying to

deal with the Nation of Islam. That was too big for him to deal with.]

THIS IS UH CAMERA ROLL ONE THIRTY-SIX ON SOUND ROLL SIXTY-SEVEN. BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X.

Q: I mean, how, how serious was that act of Malcolm to raise the issue of adultery and stuff like that in public? How serious was that for him?

Q: Tell me what we're talking about.

uh his uh taking on eh ladies that were in addition to his wife uh and having children by them was very extremely serious. But eh we were not uh, when I say we I mean the Nation of Islam's teachings, uh and the ministers that was uh teaching um the voices of, of that tea'-, tea'-, for that teaching. Uh, we were not ourselves uh aware of what our religion allows, uh in terms of uh polygamy or additional wives, you see? We were not aware of that, and we were not aware that even if uh the Honorable Elijah Mohammed would take a position uh from the Bible uh, uh, uh, uh from the Bible teachings, if he would base his position oncer'-, certain portions of the Bible that the Honorable Elijah Mohammed could defend what he, what he did, that is, taking on more than one wife, adding num'-, add, adding women uh, uh as wives. Now if he didn't recognize 'em wives, that would be the big sin, you see. But just to have more than one wife would not be a big sin in the eyes of certain Christian denominations. Um, and certainly not in the eyes of Muslims. If he had um followed the

strict rules for taking on an additional wife or additional wives um, that is to eh ha'-, give them the same um social status, um and uh financial support uh to not to deal discriminately uh to deal fairly with each of them, uh all of them. But we didn't think of that. The reaction was that the Honorable Elijah Mohammed has one wife. That's what's, that's what's known, and now we hearing that he has another wives or other women, and children by them, so right away you think of a man who is promiscuous, uh promi'-, promiscuous, you see? Um, uh, uh a man who is not uh decent in his family or private life. Um, that was, that was a serious uh thing, most serious thing, and to charge the Honorable Elijah Mohammed with such uh would be really to take you~ own life, and to take your own hands, you know? You would be risking your life. I'm just being plain, I'm being open in playing and plain with you. It would really mean that you, somebody might kill you in the Nation of Islam. And, and it wouldn't have to be uh an organized effort, either. Somebody just meet you in the street and know

what you did that they would, they might kill you, you see? [So Malcolm uh really was desperate at that time, he was so desperate until, it wasn't uh a choice betweens'-, saying something and risking my life or keeping my mouth shut and have my life, keep my life. It wasn't that. I'm going to lose my life as it is, and I'm going to do what I can to let the truth be known before I'm killed. That's what I thi'-, that's, that's the kind of Malcolm I think uh we are looking at when we looking at that Malcolm at that time.]

Q: There's a um, uh searing article that's written in the Mohammed Speaks by uh Farrakhan really denouncing Malcolm. I think it's three to four pages. How, how much is that stirring up just the, the level of, of angst, anger within the, the Nation, itself?

[I recall getting some of those papers. And one I remember that sticks, stays in my mind is a picture that had Malcolm with horns on his head, as and they were calling him a "Judas." Uh, the cartoonists had made him with horns and his head had been severed and I think his head was like rolling down a hill or something. Um, and I recall reading the language of ministers in the paper. Um, I won't Farrakhan, I know he was one of them, but there were other ministers, too. And I recall reading their language, uh, uh and I said to myself, "They're trying to get him killed.They, they want him dead."] You know? That's, that was my feeling. Uh, I wouldn't want to just focus on Farrakhan. Uh, I think all of the aggressive men of the Nation of Islam uh were very, very uh heated up um about what Malcolm had said against the Honorable Elijah Mohammed's uh private life. They were very heated up and I'm sure that any of them could have uh hurt him. But what checked most of the brothers in the Nation of Islam was the Honorable Elijah Mohammed's teaching. Even when it came to him, he would

always tell us not to use weapons of the white man. Not to uh, to depend on God and not to use the weapons of the white man. This is, thi'-, this was his open teaching that he gave to, to the, to the members of the Nation of Islam. So the average brother, even though he was enraged to the point where he wanted to kill somebody, he wouldn't do it, he would wait for instructions from their, her superior, or some word from the Honorable Elijah Mohammed. Uh, he might be so upset that he might ask the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, he might try to get word from the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, "Can I handle this? Can I handle this? This is terrible!" Uh, uh well, I'll just conclude it like that.] For the members of the Nation of Islam, we were not to act violently.

Q: Now um, so how is, so how is, how is Elijah Mohammed, your father, responding to what's going on between he and Malcolm at this point?

Q: Can you start again, 'cause I don't know what we're talking about. I may want to get you to that point, I'm gonna get you there. Where were you when Malcolm was assassinated? Tell me how did you hear about Malcolm's assassination.

Q: Um, now tell me how Elijah Mohammed responds to Malcolm's assassination? What's his response to that?

looking down harder than he had his hand, like even, a heavy burden was on him. He would lean on his hand like this. And he said, leaning on his hand like this, he said, "I wish that hadn't been done." He was talking about the assassination of Malcolm. Urn, that's, that's all, that's all that I have heard from his mouth.] Uh, at that time. But I will tell you that I know from reliable sources that when Malcolm was really causing serious trouble for the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed expressed deep hurt and anger at the table before the staff.

Q: Do you um, you say that, that, that the Nation of Islam would not use weapons of white man. Urn, you're basically stating that they would not use (unintel) for assassinating Malcolm?

police records, in the first clash, in Detroit and Chicago with the police department, the FOI and I think some MGT's, some Muslim women were wi'-, were with him in the fight. They had a violent confrontation with the police department, with nothing but their bare hands. Perhaps you heard that some youngsters, thinking that they were acting in the interest the Honorable Elijah Mohammed and the Nation of Islam had a confrontation with the police department in Louisiana. This was back there during that time. Uh, if she talking about the early sixties, I believe. Uh, and they had nothing but their bare hands. Um, ehm, [so the Honorable Elijah Mohammed said, "If we depend on the white man's weapons, Allah won't be with us." That was his teaching. Now I'm nots'-, um, uh I don't want to give you impression now that some changes didn't take place in the staff. And perhaps the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, by his silence, or by his turning his head, maybe he allowed it. I know that changes did take place, and members of the FOI begin to use weapons,

guns, and other things. I know that happened.

Q: OK. If you were, if you were to describe Malcolm to a person who never knew him, um, how would you describe him? Give me the uh description of him. I, I don't know him, you're going to tell me about him, and I'm gonna know him from your description.

Q: Tell me who we're talking about.

Q: How, if, if you were to describe your relationship, and how close you felt to him, how would you describe that?

I LOST THAT THERE. I'M SORRY. CAN YOU JUST START THAT AGAIN?

Q: The whole thing or just this one?

JUST THAT LAST ONE. MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MALCOLM ...

Q: My relationship with Malcolm.

worker. I, I, he was just that kind of person. He could make you l'-, love him and you valued him as a friend.]

Q: Um, if you were, if you were to describe what his strengths were and his weaknesses, um how did they serve or harm him in his life?

Q: Um, if you, if you, if you look back now and think about all that um, that, that he talked about, ideas that he, he laid out, wha'-, what do you think remains? What, what, what lives on? What, what is, what do we, what do you carry, what are you able to still hold on to and, and you know, se'-, that Malcolm was like.

Q: Have you um, um, when you, when you think about um, when you go back and you remember when he first came into your house, and I remember you, you, you laid a story of being at the di'-, the table hearing your father talk about Malcolm, you know, after he first met him. Remember that moment and tell me what that was like, and describe that, that moment at the table.

Q: When Malcolm had first come into the house and your father just met him, and you were talking, and you told me how amazed about being at the table.

the staff, and the family around the table. The big, large conference table. And uh, he, he was uh admiring Malcolm and he said of Malcolm, he said uh, "He will do the job for me." He say, "He will do, get the job done for me." Uh he says, "I've been waiting for a man, a person like him." He said, "These ministers, they're just satisfied to just carry the Koran and the Bible out to the meetings and go over the same thing all the time, uh and they won't get out and meet the public." He said, "Now I, I got me a young man that will go out and meet the public." So he was very proud of Malcolm. That's what I recall, I recall him being very proud of him, and I recall him, 'call him introducing Malcolm to us in that way.]

Q: Malcolm in his last year, go, goes to Mecca, and become, and, and is uh very, you know, talking of the, not talking but, but but acting and, and participating in the orthodox Islamic practice, and he opens a Mosque and uh, and uh feels that Islam is, is very important in terms of salvation with the

problem in, in America, deal with the problem in America. Talk to me about that, and whether you're in contact with him at all around that time.

Muslims.] He couldn't, he couldn't convince them, and he ca'-, and no one can convince me that Malcolm was learning, learning for the fist time that white people were Muslim. The Honorable Elijah Mohammed said that Fal rad, the one he called God in the person, Fahrad, himself, was the son of a white woman. We all knew that. [The Honorable Elijah Mohammed made a difference between bad white men and good white men, or American white man and foreign white man. He made a difference between the two. Uh, he charged the American white man with the evils and the American white man was the dev'-, was the real devil, or the devil to give, to give our attention to. And the others, he might have let us believe they're devils too, but when you really question his, his, his, his logic, we have to say, "No. The Honorable Elijah Mohammed logic does, does, does not stand that all white people are devils. Some white people that have not been uh given the idea of race superiority, they're not devils." That the Honorable Elijah Mohammed's treatment. If he didn't waste, race

superiority, race supremacy in white people, he didn't call them devils. He accepted them as his friend. And, and, and, I don't know if you ask for all this, but Herb Cuffstenon Irv. Kupcinet, who writes for, writes for the Sun Times and had his own television program at one time, I don't know if e has it now in Chicago, Herb Irv. Cus'-, Cuffstenon Kupcinet visited my father, I saw him there, they sitting at the table, I couldn't tell any different in the way he was hosting him, and greeting him, the, the I wouldn't know that he wasn't a Muslim unless I, somebody had told me that Herb Cuffstenon Irv. Kupcinet was a Jew. And uh, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed told my mother, he said, "Get, uh get that fine china uh and serve, serve our guest out of that fine china." He was served out of a, he was served co'-, coffee out of a cup that had gold rim at the top, real gold. I kind of wish I had some of those, that, that china right now. I don't know what happened to it, happened to it. Um, and um uh Cuffstenon Kupcinet later told me, he interviewed me on the show, and he told me that he never felt anything from the Honorable Elijah

Mohammed like hostility or racism or anything, 'cause he always felt that he was a friend. [So Malcolm um, I think, used that. He used his experience, doing during his Hajj, to get more attention to himself, and to launch his movement. I'm not saying he was um, I don't see it as a bad thing. He capitalized off a si'-, on a situation, that's all he did.] And it was good, it was good for the Hajj people should know more about our Hajj And it was good for the Muslim image of the, the International Mus'-, image of Muslims, it was good for it. And [but uh, to, to believe that he was seeing something uh getting the news for the first time, I can't believe that.]

Q: Got one more question. Um, how about his, his travels to Africa, and his ideas of bringing the issue of, of uh, of human rights to uh the black people ...

have some doubts. I don't think it was good for Malcolm to go and, and try to put together a political ideology or um a political agenda. Uh, he also said that we were to carry our grievances to the United Nations, because the white man here wasn't listening to us. I don't think that was a right move either, so I have a lot of disagreement. When it comes to Malcolm um uh turning political after he the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, I was in disagreement with a lot of the things that he did.

Q: Thank you.