Material is free to use for research purposes only. If researcher intends to use transcripts for publication, please contact Washington University’s Film and Media Archive for permission to republish. Please use preferred citation given in the transcript.
© Copyright Washington University Libraries 2016
Interviews were filmed on 16mm with audio recorded simultaneously on ¼ inch audio tape.
This collection consists of 115 transcriptions of selected interviews filmed by Blackside, Inc. for the Eyes on the Prize: American's Civil Rights Years 1954-1965 documentary series that premiered January 21, 1987 on PBS. The transcripts are retrospective eye-witness accounts of events that took place during the American Civil Rights Movement from 1954 to 1965. Additional transcripts will be added to the collection as they are prepared.
Washington University Film and Media Archives supervised the editing of transcriptions to correct transcriber errors which included spelling of names, places, etc. using Microsoft Word; however grammatical errors made by speaker were left alone. Transcriptions were then cross-checked by listening to the interview for accuracy and completeness.
Digital Library Services performed additional regularization and spelling correction (files should undergo separate spell check process).
Although these files represent transcriptions of speech, they have been encoded with the Tag Set for Drama, instead of Transcriptions of Speech.
The rationale for this decision was that the more formal character of the interview had a structure closer to the drama than the speech tag set, and for ease of delivery of XML.
Preferred citation:
Interview with Colonel Floyd Mann, conducted by Blackside, Inc. on February 18, 1986, for
These transcripts contain material that did not appear in the final program. Only text appearing in bold italics was used in the final version of
I’M JUST GOING TO ASK YOU A VERY SHORT QUESTION.
OK.
IF IT RUNS TOO LONG WE’LL ASK YOU TO GIVE IT AWAY AND START OVER.
OK.
OK.
FIRST QUESTION. FIRST OF ALL, WHAT, WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IN ‘60, ‘61, YOUR JURISDICTION? WHAT WERE YOU, WHAT WERE YOU DOING IN THE ALABAMA STATE GOVERNMENT?
In 1961, I was the director of the Alabama State Police which includes Alabama State Troopers, state investigators, two, three other divisions.
WHEN DID YOU FIRST HEAR ABOUT THE FREEDOM RIDERS COMING INTO ALABAMA AND WHAT WAS YOUR—WHAT WAS THE FEELING IN THE STATE? NOT AMONG OFFICIALS, BUT LOCAL PEOPLE?
Well, of course it was something new. We picked up rumors several weeks prior to them arriving in Alabama. Also it was a certain something that the state police had not been confronted with in the past. We'd had local demonstrations by local people and—but this was the first time we'd had an interstate movement on the part of people. It was testing such things as lunch counters, water fountains, restrooms, so we knew that it would be a in all probability a, a police problem.
TELL ME A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT HOW PEOPLE IN ALABAMA FELT ABOUT THE FREEDOM RIDERS. GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHAT THE, THE LOCAL FEELING WAS.
Well, at that point in time, what you could hear more than anything else was that this was outsiders coming into the state.
I’M SORRY, COULD YOU MENTION THE WORD FREEDOM RIDERS SOMEWHERE IN THERE, JUST SO I GET THAT—WE KNOW WHO YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.
All right.
WHAT ABOUT THE, THE CLIMATE COMING OUT OF THE GOVERNOR’S CAMPAIGN IN 1958?
CAN YOU GET MORE SPECIFIC ON THAT. LIKE WHAT, WHAT SORT OF ATTITUDES WERE TAKEN BY BOTH PATTERSON AND WALLACE.
Well,
OK, LET’S CUT RIGHT THERE.
AND MARK.
MARKER.
OK, SO I’M GONNA BACKTRACK A LITTLE BIT. JUST GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHAT THE CHOICE WAS FOR THE PEOPLE OF ALABAMA IN THAT ELECTION, ‘58, ‘59.
Well, in the 1958 election in the Governor's race you had a—the race was being run by Governor George Wallace and John Patterson. Governor John Patterson's father had been assassinated in Phenix City, Alabama. As a result of having been elected Attorney General and he was elected on a campaign to clean up vice and corruption in Phenix City which had been in—involved with crime for many years. Before he was able to take office he was assassinated. The Democratic Party then named his son—
LET, LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE. LET’S, LET’S CUT FOR A SECOND.
OK.
—ABOUT PHENIX CITY—
OK.
—WILL NEVER MAKE IT IN THE FILM.
Well, ask me the question again.
OK.
OK. So you don’t want Phenix City in the film.
I DON’T THINK—
OK. OK. OK.
I DON’T THINK IT WILL MAKE IT. SO, JUST GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHAT THE CHOICES WERE FOR THE VOTER IN ‘58 ELECTION IN ALABAMA.
Well, in the 1958 governor's election, the choices was Governor John Patterson or Governor George Wallace. Both, at that time, segregation in Alabama was a political issue. And, I believe, at that point in time in Alabama, to those candidates it was very important that they receive support from people who felt very strongly on this is—issue. And so you will know more of what I mean, I'm talking about groups like the Ku Klux Klan [sic], that type of people, because you have to remember, at that point in time in Alabama politics, that was before the voting act, so how other people felt at that time was not of a great concern of people running for Governor.
OK, LET’S CUT THERE.
MARKER.
SO LET’S—JUST RIGHT WHERE YOU STARTED BEFORE IN ‘58 ELECTION.
Start again?
YEAH, GO AHEAD.
Over, totally?
YEAH.
Well, in the governor’s election in 1958, two candidates, Governor John Patterson and Governor George Wallace were the candidates. At that time in Alabama, segregation was an issue, a very burning issue apparently, and it became very competitive on the part of both Patterson and Wallace to try to get the support of people who felt very strongly about these issues because, as you are aware, black people—not many black people could vote in Alabama at that point in time. So, it’s very evident to me that who won the governor's race, at that point in time, would be the people who could muster the most white support.
OK, THAT’S GOOD. AND SO, I’M SORRY LET’S CUT. LET ME JUST TAKE A BREAK HERE.
WHAT THE CLIMATE WAS THEN.
OK. MARKER.
OK, SO WHEN THE FREEDOM RIDERS CAME INTO THE STATE, THEY LEFT ATLANTA IN—ON MAY 14. THERE WAS AN OFFICIAL ON THE BUS. JUST EXPLAIN WHO THAT PERSON WAS AND WHY HE WAS ON THE BUS?
LET’S, LET’S STOP. LISTEN, I THINK—LET’S CUT FOR A SECOND. NEW YEAR’S—
MARKER.
OK.
SURE LET’S CUT.
SURE.
MARKER. OK, WE’RE SET.
OK. LET’S SEE, WHY DON’T YOU JUST KEEP GOING RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT OFF.
OK. Several miles out of Anniston, the tire went down on the bus. The bus stopped. The Klan had followed the bus to this point. At that point they set the bus on fire, the Klansmen did.
WON’T YOU DESCRIBE THAT OUTBREAK?
LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE. WHY DON’T YOU BEGIN IN, IN BY SAYING—
—WELL I DIDN’T WANT TO CUT, ACTUALLY.
OH, I’M SORRY.
All right.
YOU’RE ABOUT THE ONLY ONE TELLING THE STORY.
SO WE’RE IN BIRMINGHAM NOW. YOU, YOU SET?
YEAH.
OK.
So that’s when several other things occurred. Another riot broke out at the bus station in Birmingham. Several people, several people were beaten, some knocked unconscious, it became generally known as the Mother’s Day Massacre in Alabama.
HOW COME?
Well, because of the people that was hurt and how they were treated at the bus station.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE LIKE WHAT HAPPENED AT BIRMINGHAM IN TERMS—
Well, at that point in time, it was just totally something new to, to law enforcement in Alabama. What was happening and why it was happening and it caught ‘em, the Police Departments and the people, off guard. They had, certainly had not been trained for this type of thing, the police, deputies and what have you. So, I think the best way to tell you that the people that was handling the situation there were people that had rather that bus had never come to Alabama.
WHAT ABOUT BULL CONNORS [sic]? DIDN'T, DOESN’T HE HAVE—
He was police commissioner at that time, Police Commissioner. Bull Connor, was in charge of the Police Department in Birmingham at that time.
BUT DIDN'T PEOPLE LATER SAY THAT HE WAS—SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE FACT THAT THERE WERE NO POLICE THERE?
—you have to hold those people accountable for it.
OOPS, I’M SORRY.
OK LET’S CUT.
WE JUST RUN OUT.
THAT’S FINE.
I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO MAKE IT.
AND MARK.
MARKER.
Well, to my best—
WAIT, WAIT. JUST HOLD ON ONE SECOND. JUST GOTTA FOCUS.
WE’RE SET.
OK, GO AHEAD.
To my best recollection when the bus arrived in Birmingham, I was informed that there was either no policemen or too few policemen there to handle the situation. Many people were hurt, injured, some seriously, and what happened after that, at that point in time to the people on the bus, I do not know, but I think they were all at some point carried to a central location.
WHAT ABOUT BULL CONNOR’S—
He was in charge—Bull Connor was in charge of the Police Department in Birmingham at that point in time. He was police commissioner.
WHAT WAS HIS COMMENT ON THE WHOLE THING?
Well, his comment was that it was just absolutely ridiculous for those people to be in Alabama doing what they were doing.
OK, LET’S CUT RIGHT THERE.
AND MARK.
MARKER.
LET ME GET SETTLED DOWN HERE. OK FOLKS, IT’S ALL YOURS.
OK.
After what happened in Anniston, Alabama and Birmingham, as Director of Public Safety, I certainly knew that we had a tremendous problem on our hands.
TELL ME A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE MEETING. WASN'T KENNEDY TRYING TO GET GOVERNOR PATTERSON ON THE PHONE DIRECTLY AND—
I'd, I had heard that several attempts had been made to contact the Governor by the Attorney General which had failed.
FAILED WHY?
Well, Governor Patterson either did not take the call or was unable to be found. I don’t know.
OK.
NOW TELL ME A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT SOME—LET’S CUT HERE, I’M SORRY.
MARK.
MARKER. OK, IT’S ALL YOURS.
OK, GO AHEAD. JUST BEGIN TO LIL—TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT GOVERNOR PATTERSON’S POSITION.
Well, Governor Patterson, at that time was, in a, in my opinion, a terrible political situation, because the very people who had so actively supported him, strongly and openly, were some of the people that was really very critical of these people coming into Alabama, the Freedom Riders and what have. So I felt like that in all probability Governor Patterson was in a situation whereby, that he had rather not make a commitment to the Government, in view of the situation he was in in Alabama.
COULD YOU JUST SAY THAT AGAIN, THAT GOVERNOR PATTERSON COULDN'T MAKE A COMMITMENT TO GUARTANTEE THE SAFETY OF—
Right, I don't think he wanted to make that commitment at that point in time.
WHY DON’T YOU SAY ON CAMERA WHAT THE COMMITMENT WAS SO—CAUSE THEY WON’T—THE AUDIENCE WON’T HEAR ME SAY THIS.
Well, at that point in time, I think the Attorney General was wanting to get Governor Patterson publicly committed to guaranteeing the safety of these people throughout Alabama and, politically speaking, I felt that Governor Patterson did not want to make a public commitment.
OK, THAT’S GOOD. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE KENNEDYS, BOTH ROBERT AND JOHN KENNEDYS [sic], SAW GOVERNOR PATTERSON'S RESPONSIBILITY AS? HOW DO YOU SEE—THINK THEY VIEWED IT?
I’M SORRY, I HAVE TO CUT YOU OFF. MAKE SURE YOU MENTION THE KENNEDYS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT.
Well, I think both President Kennedy and the Attorney General Robert Kennedy felt that Governor Patterson, as Governor of Alabama, should have no hesitancy, at that time, in making that commitment, but I really don't think either one of ‘em understood the position that the Governor was in in Alabama politically with his own constituency.
TELL ME MORE ABOUT THE CONSTITUANCY. WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE DONE.
SO YOU THINK THE GOVERNOR COULD HAVE TAKEN SOME LEAD IN THIS?
Probably and he—
I’M SORRY, WHY DON’T YOU START AGAIN AND JUST EXPLAIN THAT, BECAUSE THE AUDIENCE WON’T HEAR ME.
I say, I don't know what his constituency, what that reaction would have been and I don't think the Governor knows either, at this point in time, but now in 1986, I think the Governor may have handled that totally different.
LET’S CUT FOR A SECOND. LET ME JUST SEE WHERE WE’RE AT.
MARK.
MARKER. OK, ONE SECOND TO GET SETTLED HERE. AND I AM ALMOST SETTLED. OK, FOLKS IT’S ALL YOURS.
OK, WHY DON’T YOU START WHERE YOU DID JUST NOW.
I think Governor Patterson felt that the Freedom Riders were being encouraged and supported by the Kennedys in this effort and I think he resented that.
WHY?
Well, I think, he felt that they probably should have given him, as Governor, more consideration, especially since he was one of the first Governors in the South that came out openly for President Kennedy.
BUT—OK, LET ME JUST KEEP ROLLING HERE.
Well, I think he was saying that more for the press.
I’M SORRY, BE SURE YOU MENTION HIS NAME.
I think Governor Patterson was saying that more for the press that he couldn't protect ‘em more than the actual protection of those people. Because as I stated a while ago, I, I believe that Governor Patterson knew that the state police was going to do their job.
OK. LET’S CUT FOR A SECOND.
AND MARKER.
AND THIS IS A, A DIFFERENT KIND OF QUESTION, BUT SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT, MORALLY, GOVERNOR PATTERSON HAD A RESPONSIBILITY TO UPHOLD THE RIGHTS OF THE FREEDOM RIDERS TO COME THROUGH THE STATE OF ALABAMA. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE, THE MORALITY OF THIS WHOLE THING? GOVERNOR PATTERSON’S POSITION? BECAUSE THEY WERE, THEY WERE TESTING A FEDERAL LAW.
Well, I think Governor Patterson at that time disagreed with what they were doing, totally.
WHAT WHO WAS—
I felt—
WHY DON’T YOU START AGAIN?
I think Governor Patterson, at that time, disagreed totally with what the Freedom Riders were doing and what they were trying to prove, because I—in my own mind at that time, just remembering the transaction between he and the Government, I think, he felt that this was an effort to bring this type of publicity on the state and also to put him in a very awkward position politically.
OK. WHAT ABOUT THE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND, AND GOVERNOR PATTERSON AS, AS THE, THE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE STATE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT—CAN YOU JUST ELABORATE ON THAT? WHAT WAS THE ISSUE REALLY HERE?
Well, I think the issue between Governor Patterson and the Attorney General was the, the issue of publicly trying to get a commitment from the Governor to protect these people while they were in Alabama. And I don't think the Governor ever did want to get—go on record of giving a commitment to him for—about that.
OK, WHAT WERE THE PLANS NOW TO GUARANTEE THE FREEDOM RIDERS WOULD MAKE IT FROM BIRMINGHAM TO MONTGOMERY? WHAT WAS—
Well, the state, the state police and Mr. Siegenthaler, along with other governmental officials, maybe some marshals’ assistants, we determined that the best way and the safest way to get those people into Montgomery and on into Mississippi was to make certain that they were protected. So, when they left Birmingham we had sixteen highway patrol cars in front of that bus and sixteen patrol cars behind the bus with troopers. Also we had small aircraft running reconnaissance for—watching for bridges, where someone might try to sabotage that bus.
—unless they were invited. Either it became obvious that law and order had totally broken down—
WE HAVE TO CHANGE NOW.
LET’S CUT. DID WE GET ALL THAT OR…
YOU—
GREAT.
FOURTEEN.
IT’S ALL YOURS, PRU.
OK.
It was a policy of the state police in 1961 not to ever enter a city unless they were invited or either it became very apparent that law and order had broken down. So, at the time the bus arrived at the Montgomery bus station, only the Assistant Director Mr. W.R. Jones and myself was there when the bus arrived. As soon as the people began to get off the bus I noticed these strange people all around the bus which I knew immediately they were Klansmen. No sooner than they had gotten off the bus a riot evolved. At that point in time, it certainly became obvious to me that law and order had broken down and there's no police around the bus station. So we immediately sent for those hundred state—
—troopers that we had quartered at the police academy. And prior to them arriving there, several people were hurt and we had to command cars to take some to the hospital.
DESCRIBE THE SCENE A LITTLE BIT WHEN YOU, YOU APPARENTLY HAD TO FIRE YOUR GUN. DESCRIBE EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID ON THE SCENE—
Well there was people being beat with baseball bats—
SORRY, START AGAIN.
OK.
GO AHEAD.
WHAT DID YOU DO?
Well, we had to threaten to take some lives of ourselves unless that violence stopped immediately.
DID YOU PULL A GUN OUT YOURSELF?
I did.
WHY DON'T YOU DESCRIBE THAT JUST NOW?
Well, there's nothing really to describe except I just put my pistol to the head of one or two of those folks who was using baseball bats and told them unless they stopped immediately they was going be hurt. And it did stop immediately.
TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE SC—
IT’S GREAT.
—THE, THE SCENE AT THE BUS STATION? CAN YOU JUST DESCRIBE—
Well—
—AS THE FREEDOM RIDERS ARE COMING OUT THEY’RE, THEY’RE BLACK AND WHITE, MEN AND WOMEN AT THIS POINT, RIGHT?
That’s right and newspaper people and just mobs of people begin to appear. Just—
I’M SORRY. THEN BACK UP AND RESTART AGAIN. I DON’T WANT YOU TO—
BACK, BACK—
SPEED. MARKER.
JUST A FEW SENTENCES, OK. I’LL TELL—
FIFTEEN.
YOU WHEN TO START, RIGHT?
ONE SECOND. LET ME GET SETTLED DOWN HERE. AND I AM SETTLED.
OK, SO IT WAS—
OK, ONE QUICK QUESTION NOW, ABOUT—AT THE MEETINGS PRIOR TO MONTGOMERY, THE WHOLE—YOUR FEELINGS ON THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF STATE VERSUS FEDERAL RESPONSIBILITY AND WHAT THE REAL ISSUES WERE HERE.
WHAT ABOUT GOVERNOR PATTERSON THOUGH, HE SAID HE FELT THE FEDERALS—PEOPLE WERE HONING IN ON HIS TURF.
IS THAT A REAL ISSUE OR NOT?
Well, he certainly made that statement—
START—
—both privately—the Governor Patterson certainly made the statement both privately and publicly that he felt that the Government was intruding in Alabama. And, of course, the Attorney General and others from the Attorney General’s office also was saying that their only concern was to get these people in and out of Alabama and seeing that their rights were not violated.
DO YOU THINK GOVERNOR PATTERSON WAS PLAYING A POLITICAL GAME OF HIS OWN?
I would not.
OK, LET’S CUT.
MARKER.
OK, JUST GIVE ME IN A FEW SENTENCES, A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF SIEGENTHALER IN THAT MEETING IF YOU REMEMBER HIM, THAT MEETING IN MONTGOMERY. JUST A COUPLE OF SENTENCES. REMEMBER?
Well, Mr. Siegenthaler was kind of like myself, I think, he was there to totally represent the feelings of the Attorney General and the government and
I was really impressed with Mr. Siegenthaler's seemingly sincere efforts to resolve this matter. And he pushed real hard to get an answer about—could he guarantee this—could the Governor guarantee the safety of these people. The Governor was just as adamant not to give that commitment. So, at that point in time, I certainly felt that by having been appointed by the Governor that I certainly should assure them, at that time, that I felt that law and order could prevail in Alabama.
GREAT. OK, AGAIN JUST A FEW, FEW QUESTIONS, I MEAN, IN A FEW SENTENCES. DURING THE NIGHT OF MAY 21ST, WHEN THE MOB SURROUNDED THE CHURCH, THE FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH HERE AND MARSHALS, U.S. MARSHALS, ARE TRYING TO HOLD BACK THE CROWD, AT THAT POINT, WHY DID GOVERNOR PATTERSON DECLARE MARTIAL LAW AND BRING IN THE NATIONAL GUARD?
DESCRIBE THE SCENE, VERY BRIEFLY, OUTSIDE THE CHURCH.
Well,
WHAT WAS HAPPENING INSIDE THE CHURCH AS FAR AS YOU KNEW?
Inside the church was just singing and just trying to enjoy themselves. Singing with them because I went in with General Graham, at the time, we read the decree for martial law and it was totally orderly and seemed like they were just enjoying being together.
WHAT WAS THE FEELING YOU GOT ABOUT—WAS THERE A FEELING OF VICTORY IN THE CHURCH OR SOMETHING HAD BEEN—
Well, I felt that they certainly felt that they had got the attention that, not only they wanted, but needed at that time.
WHY DON'T YOU SAY THAT AGAIN SAY—AND, AND SAY WHO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THAT THE PEOPLE INSIDE THE CHURCH ARE—CAN YOU JUST SAY IT AGAIN?
The Freedom Riders with their supporters inside the church.
AND WHAT—I’M SORRY START AGAIN. WHAT WAS THE WHOLE—THIS—
Well,
HOW DID YOU GET THEM OUT OF THE CHURCH, THEN, IN THE MORNING?
OK, LET’S CUT THERE. OK.
AND MARK.
MARKER.
OK SO—
CUE IN.
—MY NEXT QUESTION IS JUST A LITTLE MORE GENERAL. WHAT DO YOU, WHAT DO YOU THINK WERE SOME OF THE IMMEDIATE RESULTS OF THE FREEDOM RIDES AS THEY CONTINUED THROUGHOUT THE SUMMER? PLEASE SUMMARIZE.
AND WHAT HAPPENED AS A RESULT OF THE FREEDOM RIDES IN TERMS OF PUBLIC ACCOMODATIONS? WHAT WERE THE—
Well, as a result, now, those things that they were testing, at that time, like drinking fountains, rest rooms, lunch counters, restaurants, they can go anywhere they want to in Alabama.
DID THAT—DID YOU SEE THAT CHANGING THAT SUMMER OR, I MEAN, CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT WHAT HAPPENED JUNE, JULY OR AUGUST AS THE FREEDOM RIDERS KEPT COMING THROUGH AND THESE CASES STARTED BUILDING UP?
Well, that was—there’s a many, many things was a spin off from those Freedom Riders, that’s why I think probably that was the most, probably significant event that’s, other than the, the boycott in the civil rights movement, because the spin-off from that was a result of lunch counters, restrooms all being integrated. Universities being integrated. All those things were a—seemed like kind of a spin-off from that Freedom Rider movement.
GREAT. OK, AND WHAT ABOUT THE—DID YOU HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT THE SPECIFIC ICC RULINGS THAT CAME OUT? THOSE LAWS THAT CAME OUT THAT GUARANTEED THAT PUBLIC ACCOMODATIONS—
Oh, yes, I've heard much about it that’s why I mentioned Judge Frank Johnson, because Judge Frank Johnson made certain those laws were enforced and people that was charged with the responsibility of enforcing those laws, knew that Judge Johnson meant that.
WHICH LAWS? I’M SORRY CAN YOU JUST?
The, the, the enforcement of the, of the laws which broke down the segregation barriers like lunch counters, restrooms, water fountains, going to school, that type thing.
OK, LET’S CUT RIGHT THERE.
AND MARKER.
THESE ARE TWO QUESTIONS. ONE IS AT THAT MEETING IN MONTGOMERY, AT THE GOVERNOR’S MANSION, WHAT, WHAT WAS IT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MEETING WAS SORT OF AT AN IMPASSE, THE WAY SIEGENTHALER DESCRIBES IT, UNTIL YOU SPOKE UP. WHAT MADE YOU SPEAK UP AT THAT MEETING AND SAY THAT YOU COULD DEFEND THESE PEOPLE?
Well, because I felt like that the Attorney General expected me to do that, because I'd had several discussions with him and I also knew that the Governor expected me to do that.
OK.
I THINK YOU’D BETTER HAVE HIM RESTATE THAT AND INSTEAD OF SAYING “IT,” SAY THE GOVERNOR EXPECTED ME TO—
OK. TO, TO—OK. TO SPELL—
TO ENSURE WE COULD PROTECT PEOPLE.
—IT OUT A LITTLE BIT MORE.
What? What do you—
OK, LET’S CUT JUST FOR A SECOND. WHAT—
AND MARKER.
OK, I’M READY.
JUST REAL SPECIFICS, OK.
Well, in the meeting with Mr. John Siegenthaler and Governor Patterson, when things seemed to get to an impasse, I knew from my conversations with the Attorney General Kennedy and also Mr. Siegenthaler, what they wanted. I also had known Governor Patterson much longer than either one of those people had known him and I felt that I knew also that he wanted me to enforce the law. So that’s why I spoke up.
OK THAT’S GREAT.
EX—EXCELLENT.
OK. NOW WHAT ABOUT GOVERNOR PATTERSON’S SEGREGATIONIST POSITION IN THIS CAMPAIGN AS GOVERNOR? HE WAS VERY RACIALLY MOTIVATED IN, IN THE WAY HE CONDUCTED THAT CAMPAIGN. DID YOU THINK THAT HE COULD HAVE GIVEN MORE OF A LEAD IN THE SITUATION HAD HE BEEN WILLING TO RISK POLTICALLY? MAYBE HIS POLITICAL CAREER OR DO YOU THINK—WHAT, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT WHOLE GOVERNORS [sic] PATTERSON’S POSITION?
OK. LET’S CUT THERE. I THINK WE’VE GOT EVERYTHING ELSE, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING?
AND MARK.
MARKER.
GIVE ME ONE SECOND TO SETTLE DOWN HERE. OK.
OK, IT’S YOURS.
Well, you know, it’s hard to answer what those people in the mob felt they had to fear from the Freedom Riders. But first, I think, what upset—why they was acting the way they were acting is because in their own minds there'd been a lot of press and a lot of publicity about these people coming to Alabama. They'd also been a lot made of them not being Alabamians and being outsiders and been a lot said about them being agitators and the things that they were testing, you have to remember this was 1961, and never had any of those things happened in Alabama, like sharing the same restrooms in public places or sharing the same restaurant. To, to those people this was something totally new, socially, and I'm sure that they were fearful of change and something new that they didn't understand. And some of them did not understand.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE—THEY COULD HAVE GIVEN—THE, THE LEADERSHIP IN THE STATE COULD HAVE GIVEN THEM A BETTER LEAD ON HELPING THEM THROUGH THAT TRANSITION?
Well, now we—you know, that I believe that leadership, at that point in time, if they had just conducted themselves the way they would conduct themselves in 1986 it'd have been a totally different thing.
BUT BACK, BUT BACK THEN, I MEAN, STAYING IN 1961, DO YOU THINK THAT, DO YOU THINK THAT THINGS COULD HAVE—WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT DIFFERENTLY HAD THE LEADERSHIP IN, IN ALABAMA GIVEN—SHOWN PEOPLE THAT IT WASN'T GOING TO BE SUCH A TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE THING?
Absolutely.
CAN YOU JUST EXPLAIN THAT YOURSELF?
Yeah, I think it certainly, if, if leaders in Alabama and all places of leadership had a give [sic] the kind of leadership that rightfully should have been given, there's no question in my mind that turmoil would not have been as great and the problems would have been solved much sooner.
OK LET’S CUT.
THAT’S A ROLL OUT.
GOOD.
THAT’S FINE.