The lived in the same neighborhood, went to school together. They were more like brothers.

My nephew, Malcolm, and Malcolm X, they both names were Malcolm, so to describe them, Malcolm was "X", my nephew was just Malcolm. We called him, "Mal."

[5104 Well, every time my sister would open the door, Malcolm X would be there. He was like one of us. You understand?]5119 And then when this trouble came, we all were surprised about the trouble.

No, I don't remember that.

We lived in the same neighborhood, and Malcolm X's home ain't far from me now. You didn't see it? You didn't see it?

5170[ Yeah, Malcolm X's ain't five minutes from me, where I live right now.]5178

Well, he was ve’-, very dignified. He...

I mean [5196 Malcolm X was very dignified. DB 5200 He, I, I don't know. I can't describe. He, 5208[ he was very nice fella. That's all I can say. Him and my nephew Mal looked like brothers. They were so involved in one another, whatever one did, the other one did. ]5231 That's all I can say. And speaking of the time in the court, that's the time of the trial...

OK.

That's right.

Well, how they come to meet the white girls, I couldn't tell you. 5275[ But anyway, the DB 5277 white girls were crazy about Malcolm, my nephew Malcolm, and Malcolm X. So these two white girls were sisters. And there was another white girl which wasn't rich like 'they were, but these two girls, the sisters, would go around the neighborhood where they lived, like Newton, and out in that vicinity, and they would pick out the homes where these people would be away and then they would

Larceny, invading homes.

That's right.

Well, all I can say is just like you me’-, you meet, I don't know where they met or anything like that...

Hm?

5490[[ Malcolm X and Malcolm Jarvis used to be together all the time. How they met these girls, I don't know. But I do know they fell

in love with one another. Which one my DB 5516 nephew Mal had, I don't know. But one went with Malcolm X. Then I guess riding around, thinking evil, they got involved in breaking in people's homes.] Of course, I had the rug from one of the homes, and sent it to his step-brother in New York, 'cause he had no rugs on his floor when my sister died. It was in my sis ter's home.And was sent to New York, I gave it to him.]no 5572 But uhm, the only thing, when I went to that trial...

Newton.

Uhm, I/know they went to Newton, uhm, I think it was Bellmore.

Well, see they would go out riding in the car ..

5619[[ Malcolm Jarvis, my nephew, and Malcolm X had a car, and they would go out, you know, like any lovers would do. They'd meet these girls and all and I don't know how the conversation uh started about involved in these womens uh breaking in these people's homes. I don't anything about that. All I DB 5655 know that they did invade them homes. All I know they did steal. Malcolm, my nephew, is wearing the ring now that he spent ten years in jail for. He has it on his finger right

now. Every time he looks at it, he thinks of DB 5687 that ten years.]]yes 5691

I don't know where these homes were, but I do know the towns like Bellmont, uhm Newton, uhm and like out Chestnut Hill, the rich vicinities. And how they got caught. I wasn't home, I was on vacation and ...

I don't know where they met them now. I couldn't tell you that. I all I know that they went around with these white girls, and uh ...

Malcolm Jarvis and Malcolm X went around with these three white girls. Now I don't know of any other fella being involved with the other white girl, but all I know, that they did get caught, and uh, when the trial came up, my sister and us were surprised when ...

Well, the wome'-, uh 5814[[ these white girls knew these homes. Malcolm X and my uh nephew, Malcolm, didn't know nothing about 'em. But they did the job. You know, like breaking and entering. They were young. They were having fun, they called, but that wasn't fun. That wasn't no kind of fun. But since then, they've realized all that. But

uhm Malcolm eh X and my Malcolm uh, my nephew Malcolm went to prison and paid for that. The white girls got off.]]5871

Larceny and breaking and entering.

Malcolm Jarvis, my nephew, and Malcolm X, when they invaded these homes, and was caught, Malcolm wasn't in, in that uh, the night they got caught, wasn't, he, he was on the railroad.

5925[ Their charges were larceny and breaking and entering in the night time. And their sentence, when judge sentenced them in the court...]5964

They were on the, uhm, my ...

My uhm nephew, Malcolm Jarvis, Malcolm X was in them cages, you know, I forget what, 6016[ they were in the cage. They had been locked up, you know, and they brought in the court handcuffed. My sister and I and his father, my nephew Malcolm Jarvis, was sitting about three rows from the front.]6042 When the judge ...

Uh, we, we both cried. [[6063 It made me feel very sad to see my nephew, Malcolm Jarvis in there 'cause he'd never been in trouble before. And then my sister cried, we both cried on each other's shoulders, what could I do or say?]6087

Only way I figure that prejudice came in 6111[ when he pronounced sentence and said, "Ten years for Mal'-, my nephew, Malcolm Jarvis, and Malcolm X." And Malcolm X's sister jumped up in the court and hollered "Prejudice, prejudice, nothing but prejudice." And the judge took the mallet DB 6150 and knocked on that thing, "Get 'em out here, I'll lock 'em all up." That was it. And my sister and I cried like a baby. And Malcolm, my Malcolm Jarvis hollered, "Why don't you just give me life and forget it?"] That was it.]6190 That was it.

Again?

Uh, is that her name, Ella? I know when he pronounced sentence, my sister almost fainted. But ...

Oh, yes when he pronounced sentence, then Ella, Malcolm X's sister?

Oh, uh when the judge announced sentence, Malcolm uh X's sister jumped up like a bird in the air ...

She did, and she said, "Prejudice, prejudice!", she says. The judge taken a mallet and knocked ...

Yeah?

When the judge says ten years? Uhm ...

6322[ Yeah. When the judge announced ten years, my Malcolm, my nephew Malcolm, said, "Why don't you give me life?" That's when Malcolm X's sister jumped up like a bird in

I felt bad because we never had nothing in the family like that before.

[6413 I mean, like we never had nobody locked up in no like stealing and going on before, and we just figured it was his weakness. That was his buddy and he was going to follow his buddy and do what his buddy wanted him to do.

The yes, I do. This way, I se'-, that's way I said it was prejudice. Because they wouldn't of known nothing about it if they hadn't of led 'em to them homes. So why should they get off, and let the boys get ten years?]6461

[6468 I felt the same way Ella did, but I kept my mouth shut.]6475

[6480 When I heard the sentence, all my sister and I did was bust out and cry. 'Til that judge knocked that mallet on that desk

Yes, I do.

[6516 When I heard the sentence, I said to my sister, "Well what did they get?" They got nothing. That's the reason why Malcolm's sister jumped through the uhm, Malcolm X's sister jumped through like a fly. She didn't care. I know the way she felt. But uh, that was it.]6548

The what?

6569[ Yeah, when I heard the sentence, I looked at my sister, she cry, and I cried, too, and I says, then they uhm, the judge pronounced their names, but they got nothing.]6590

And that's when this prejudice came, came in. It was prejudice.

Sure it was prejudice out.Nothing else but prejudice.

Well when the judge pronounced the sentence...

Well, when I heard the sentence, I looked at my sister 'cause she fell on my shoulder, she was crying. I was crying. Then the judge uh called these girls names, and uhm says uhm, "Probation." You know, putting so many years probation, I said, to my s'-, ...

Yeah.

That's, that's right, I said ...

[6671 And I said, "What?"]6674

Yeah, I think they got two or three years probation.

[6691 Yeah, these white girls got two or three years probation when the colored fellas, 'cause they were black, got ten years. They didn't know nothing about them places out there. They led 'em out there. So why should they get two or three years, and they get ten years. This is where prejudice comes in, period.]]6733

[[6742 The white girls got two to three years probation. And they announced Malcolm X, called his name, Ma'-, my nephew Malcolm Jarvis, ten years y That's what he gave 'em. That's when that, all that excitement came in that court. I could of grabbed that judge myself. All that excitement happened in the court and he took that mallet, bam, bam, bam,

"Get 'em out of here or I ;-11 lock 'em all up."That was it.]]6795

Sure.

I know it was. Nothing else. If he was living, I'd tell him that myself. But God took him home.

Who's names?

I don't know their names.

Just say the three white girls, 'cause I don't know their names. I did.

Uh, uh they couldn't help what they got, but uhm, what I'm trying to say, uh it wasn't no fault of theirs that they got probation, they felt bad for Malcolm and uh my Malcolm, nephew Malcolm, and Malcolm X. They couldn't believe it from their expressions their self ...

That they got ten years.

Well, can I ask you a question? If I take and lead you somewhere, let's go rob, out you don't know nothing about it. And I said, "Come on, let's go out here." And we break in and rob, a'-, your white and I'm colored. Who started it?

Uh, well ...

Yeah, well, pertaining to the three white girls that got off, my sister and I felt awful bad about that, because to me, they were the main one's that should of ...

Yeah' they got pro' - ' uhm the three white girls got probation. But the two black boys got time. no Now the reason I am saying like Malcolm X's sister it was prejudice, is because if you know where you are going, and you lead me to these places to break in, why should you get off and I get all the time. You should of go'-, them three white girls should of got time just like Malcolm X and my DB 7613 nephew, Malcolm Jarvis. But it didn't work that way. It worked the opposite way, which wasn't right. And any fool can see it was prejudice. The judge knew that what she said was the truth. Still he wanted to lock us all up. "Get 'em out of here.", in his nasty tone, "Or I'll lock 'em all up."

Well, wouldn't you say it was prejudice?

Yeah, ma'-, when the sentence was announced, uhm, the three, [7684 Malcolm uh X and Malcolm Jarvis, my nephew, were sentenced. Then here come the three girls, the judge give them two, three years probation. Why? Why? I'll ask you that question. Why? They DB 7718 should of got some time. It wouldn't of been bad if they'd a got some time, but they got no time. So therefore, it was prejudice. Any fool can see it was prejudice.]]7738 As I said before, and say it again, you didn't have to go to school to uh see that. Anybody could see it. If my mother had, was married to a DB 7760 white man, and one of the children were white and one were black and I treated one we'-, better than the other one, what is it but prejudice?

It was in the newspapers. Uh, my Lord, it covered the, the, what was out then, The Post, I think, not the Boston Globe, it was The Post. They had a Post out, and I'm sure at that time a paper called The Post.

It was right over in Middlesex County in East Cambridge. As I remember we had to go up a lot of steps.

This is what I don't know, honey. This is something I don't know.

The three white gir'-, Malcolm X and my nephew, Malcolm Jarvis, how they met them girls, I don't know. But they got involved with and fell in love with one another. 7887[ All right, you go out uh riding in the cars around at night, and I guess the white girls uh planned, no guessing, they planned and pointed out homes where, uh like friends of mothers and them is away, we'll invade that home tonight. See, they're having a good time and want money. And we'll invade that DB 7913 home tonight, and the men, being men, they could climb if it was a window, or pry open a

door, whatever. And that's how they got in them homes.]7941

[7966 All I know, Malcolm X and my Malcolm, my nephew Malcolm, they used to hate the white man for the judge sentencing them saying that, gave them ten years and not the white girls. So Malcolm X was a Muslim anyway, and I guess a librarian there, they found the books, and because they their cell was right next to the library.]8016 I remember DB 8015 them telling me. And him and m'-, my nephew Malcolm X, my nephew, Malcolm Jarvis, used to get these books and read 'em, and they came much interested in being a Muslim, my nephew Malcolm Jarvis did, Malcolm X al'-, already was a Muslim.

No. Only thing he said that when he was up uh Walpole, they did away with Charlestown State Prison, when he was in Walpole, they treated them very nice. Very nice. But uh, they still grew that hatred. 8097[ I said, "You can't hate everybody on account of that judge. If we hated a lot of white DB 8109 people that don't like us, it wouldn't be right, 'cause there's a lot of 'em that do. The care, the love the very ground you walk on." I've worked for people that's been very nice to me.]8132

... and it's still his way of life.

I laughed.

I don't know, I just laughed and said, "It can't be."

Yeah, he first became a Muslim when he went to prison. That's when he became a Muslim.

Well, my sister and I, uhm, and my brother-in-law, used to take uh to East Cambridge to see uh, not East Cambridge, Charlestown state Prison, at that time, to see Malcolm ...

Hm?

Yeah, well, uhm, when Malcolm and them got sentenced, it was sentenced to Charlestown State Prison. Well, they knocked that down within a year.

I laughed and made fun.

I did. I laughed and made fun.

Uhm, when Malcolm first became, uh my nephew ...

Yeah. My nephew, Malcolm Jarvis... became a Muslin. I really couldn't believe it because we're Baptist people. END OF SIDE ONE. I really couldn't, and I didn't believe in some of their points that they believed in. I just couldn't go along with it. I just couldn't see it that way. But that was his life wanted to lead. That was the way it is and it is that way until now. No one can change him from being a Muslim. He still going to be DB 8332 one. He'll die that way. Audio out. I'll die a Baptist.

We all were mixed in.

[8369 I was in the courtroom the day, the morning of that trial. My sister and I were three seats back from the judge and the inmates, which was Malcolm X and Malcolm Jarvis, my nephew. We were there when they brought 'em in. So the judge started, "Court adjourned." (laugh) And, of course, you have to stand up to greet hi, and uh then he started, he called Malcolm X first.]8426

Oh, the cour' - , courtroom was a large place. At first we had to go up about a thousand steps to get to the courtroom. And it was a large place, and uhm, let me see, the cage would take 'em, like from that mirror back to the door.

8479[ Well, the, when we entered the courtroom, we sat three seats from the judge and Malcolm X and my nephew, Malcolm Jarvis. When they brought them in, like any inmate they looked very sad , out both of them, and that's what saddened my sister and I.]8504 'Cause we didn't know what was going to be, what it wasn't going to be.

Hm?

We did.

Uh, "Rise."(unintel). Yeah.

Yes.

That'-,...

That cage wasn't wide, honey. It wasn't li'-, like they were sheltered in, it was just, excuse me, it was like a cage, any cage would be next to the judge, like you see. And we had to rise to salute the judge like Jesus.

Yeah. Well, when we came the swinging doors, they entered the courtroom. All, uh, uh we were three rows, it was a large courtroom, we were in the middle aisle, three rows from where the judge would enter and that cage where the inmates came in. Pretty soon here they come with Malcolm X and my nephew, Malcolm Jarvis, handcuffed. Sat 'em down in the cage. They sat there. "All rise as so and so presiding, all rise." So we got DB 8633 to get up and greet that judge like Jesus, as I said before. And, so when he, said, "All right.", that means for you to sit down, he says uh, "You know ... " No, he says, "Malcolm X", they showed him the uhm file so and he read it, put his glasses on and he read it. Then he says, "Malcolm X, Malcolm Jarvis stand up."

[8695 When we came in this sliding door, we didn't know which side, the courtroom was big, it had three aisles. We chose the middle aisle, 'cause we knew that judge's uh, uh what's his name, was in front of it. We were three rows from the judge's bench. We hadn't been in there five minutes when these uh guys brought Malcolm X and Malcolm, my nephew, Malcolm Jarvis in this cage. I call it a cage 'cause that's where they put DB 8749 inmates. Then "All rise as so and so presiding." We all had to stand up and greet him like a prince. So, we get up and "OK." That means for you to sit down. So we sat down, and uhm the judge says, "Malcolm X" Malcolm X stood up with the guard, and behind him...]8797

Yeah, because they looked very sad, like both could break down and cry.

That's what I'm telling you.

Ma'-, oh, [8824 Malcolm Jarvis, my nephew, and Malcolm X in that cage, when they came in they looked like they could have died. And uhm, Malcolm glimpsed his -mother, and he glimpsed me, and he put a faint smile on his face. And uhm, then when the judge came in he said ...]8864

[[8883 The only thing I could say, when they walked in them, both, Malcolm X and my nephew, Malcolm Jarvis, in the, and the guys brought them and put 'em in the cage, I looked at my sister, she was crying, I was crying, and we looked up, and Malcolm X and Malcolm Jarvis was filled up, you know, tears running down their cheeks. And it was a sad, sad day for me in that court. That morn', I'll never forget it.]8943

I couldn't describe how, all I know, it was uhm, it was no longer than my ste'-, stereo there, but it was wide.

[8982 The cage was uh just wide enough to fit two people. And uhm, and sit comfortable. That was about two feet from the judge, his bench.]9006 That's all I can say.

That's what I said, we cried, my sister and I both. She fell on my shoulders crying and I was crying. And then we looked up and Malcolm gave a slight wave, you know, with his hand, uh my nephew. [9043 But it was a sad day in the court.]9057

Honey, I didn't uhm, I didn't even pay no attention to them, 'cause we were too sad.