THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION OF UM MALCOLM X ONE CAMERA ROLL ONE THIRTY-EIGHT, SOUND ROLL SIXTY-EIGHT.

Q: What we're going to do now, I'm going to ask you to talk to me first about when you first, you first heard Malcolm or you had any idea of this person, somebody like that existing in Harlem, back in the fifties.

Q: Tell me about that.

Q: Mm hm.

WE'RE ROLLING.

history.]]7694 I used to, I'm almost curse him CB 7696 out, you know, tell him to get away from me talking about some black history, right? But what happened is uh this incident, when uh Brother Johnson was brutalized by the police and um, Malcolm and some brothers, uh, I think it was the twenty-third precinct, if I'm not mistaken. Um, twenty—eight, yeah, and um, they went and uh first the uh officer denied that he was even arrested, so they left, and they came back. And this time there were many, many thousand people had a CB 7762 march with them up to the precinct, and eventually, I think uh Hicks, who is editor of Amsterdam News was calling in because they didn't know how to deal with Malcolm, and eventually they moved him out to Sidenham Hospital. Uh, I think Doctor uh Matthews, who's a neurosurgeon uh operated on his uh, his injury. And um, when he told uh Malcolm, 7807[[ now I had just, you know, just heard of, heard about this, and um, one of the guys CB 7817 that were there, I think it was Curtis was telling me about it. And uh, when uh,| when Malcolm raised his hands, you know, all the people left which was unusual in Harlem at

that time to have that many people would uh, CB 7839 would uh be interested in one person, or one person, black person, going to a police precinct and demanding anything. So that sort of caught my attention ]]7854 and um, that Sunday, I went to a meeting, and he spoke uh on eating swine, and slavery, and Christianity. Uh, then when it was over, he ask uh, uh, "Do you uh...", first he had a question, answer period, right? And uh then he ask, you know, "How many of you uh believe what you heard is true?" I raised my hand, CB 7901 uh, "You who believe it's true, you, how many would like to follow uh and join on to your own kind?" I raised my hand. But anyway, that Sunday, I made up my mind to uh, you know, to become a Muslim.]7821

Q: It took him one Sunday?

breaks it, and it grows.]]7966 Uh, that evening, I was invited to Brooklyn to eat with a friend of mine,from Suffolk.W e grew up together. CB 7980 And uh [[7982 I used to love pork, pig feet, you know, I was raised, I used to, I used to uh feed pigs, that's why, when he was talking about pigs, I knew, you know, about the garbage and the worms,and but, you know they, we knew all that because we used to smoke hams, and we used call these little worms skippers.And you go in a smoke house and brush'em off, so no big deal. But anyway, CB 8016 that evening, uh we sat down, Louise, who was Alfred's wife,and I had this, brought this big,fat pig foot, carrot greens, and potato salad, you know, soul food. And uh, so I cut, you know, i was cutting that little, that little toe off that pig foot, and i put that thing in my mouth, and I couldn't swallow it, and I couldn't spit it out.And I was just about to, the impact of what Malcolm said had just hit me when I put that CB 8071 pig toe in my mouth, and so I made an excuse with, with my hand over my mouth, I had to go to the bathroom. So I went in the batheroom and spit it out,]]8084 and I almost vomit. And I

really did get sick. So when I went back to CB 8093 the uh table, I told them that I didn't feel good, and I didn't want anything to eat, you know. And from that moment on, I've never, knowingly eaten pork, or unknowingly eaten pork.

Q: Now, you, you, you said once that um, you were, you were intrigued by the X when first heard this, his name, Malcolm X.

Q: What, what intrigued you about the X?

Q: Talk to me what we're talking, I mean tell me what we're talking about.

MARK. TWO.

Q: OK. Tell me about Malcolm and how he talks to you about the X and what it means.

That's, that's, that's uh primarily uh uh uh CB 8288 how he explained the uh, the X. [[8294 I thought it was strange, you know, to hear Malcolm X, you know? I mean X, uh, it's, it's, it's, it has a mystic about it, too. ]]8313

Q: You were, you were uh just talking about how he would uh, he was constantly talking about self-improvement, by how you looked at yourself, how you dealt with your own qualities or, or um faults and how you, how you and, and addressed, what were you, were you?

had a couple of children, but she would never smile. Always somber. So di'-, so minister CB 8413 Malcolm thought perhaps she had an attitude or, or something that was bothering her that she didn't want to talk about, because usually uh he would, he would help people solve their problems, and uh, as much as he could. He would never take sides when there was a family dispute, but he, he was a problem solver. So, when, when he left, we CB 8450 told her that uh, uh that the minister said if you would be a little more amiable, if you would smile, you would make more tips. So she said, "The reason why I don't smile is because all my teeth are rotten, my front teeth. So I don't, that's why I don't smile." So anyway, excuse me, we went back and we told him, Omar, Louis Omar and myself and a couple other brothers were sitting at CB 8496 the table, and we told him out what she said. And I'll give an example of uh, of this self...

CAMERA ROLL THIRTY-NINE, ONE THIRTY-NINE.

Q: OK. So, so you and, and uh Louis Omar are sitting at the table and, and pick the story up there. What happened, she's told you about her teeth?

He's standing up there talking about it, nobody knows, you know, where he's going, CB 8654 where he's coming from, but you listen, you know he's taking you somewhere, and you know there's a moral to this story. And he brought this policeman back and pointed to this one and said, "He just witnessed a murder." So uh the policeman told him, uh said "The building that you're looking at is a hospital, and the window you're looking through is surgery, and the man with the knife is a surgeon, and the man lying on the CB 8702 table is a patient, so what, it's just opposite of what you thought. He's not murdering the man, he's trying to save his life." And he gave us this story about coming to conclusions without all the facts and he told uh, he held Muslims back this Sunday, uh because when there was like Muslim temple business, Mosque business the um, what we call lost-founds, which people from the public would uh be excused and Muslims would CB 8756 be held back. And he took up a collection and we took up at least, he initiated this collection enough to give that sister money to go to a dentist, and get her mouth

straightened out. You know, he, he was, he CB 8790 was, he was a beautiful person. You know, I was, I was, I was watching a documentary and uh it was lady uh moderator who was interviewing um, I guess you would call her the bird woman down in Jamaica, the island of Jamaica, and when she finished um interviewing her, uh at the end of the documentary she said, "In this world, there are me’-, you meet," said, "there are many delightful people." And I could say that about Malcolm, he was a very delightful person, you know, that's, that's much CB 8847 different than, than what the, the, the public or the media uh have painted him as.

Q: Talk to me, speaking about uh Malcolm and his, his, his real concern about words.

Q: Was that, was this student words, and...

Q: And give me a sampling of, of his, of how you use and help you do uh, um, take a word and, and, and understand it kind of, kind of. He used to do a thing on negro.

thing. [[9021 He said it means that we are people CB 9026 who are dead, mentally and spiritually dead. And the word "Negro" simply means you're a dead man, from your neck up.]]9042 Uh, he would take words like "husband,"to show how words change meaning, and um, he would break down the word H—U—S, "hus," which means house, "bunder" means the keeper, so in the ancient days, a husband man meant the keeper of the inn, or the keeper of the house. That had nothing to do with whether the manégad a wife or whether the man was single. [9084 Uh, he would, CB 9086 he was, [he was a master at teaching uh us through uh tracing the origin of words. There words that he went all the way back to Sanskrit. And when you get back into Sanskrit to understand that word, you have to go and study the history of those people. So, in that way, he introduced us to ancient CB 9121 history.]]9123 Um, back uh the Chaldeans, and uh where astrology began, uh just from the uh very skillful use of words.

Q: so as like a minister, as a young, as a young, as just a minister, you had to then study, as well, and to hear, to take part in

classes.And how ’bout those classes when it comes to study that just required you, not your parents?

enough to make a Harvard student throw his CB 9283 books down and, and go on home somewhere. Forget about it.]9290 Uh, and eventually, I guess through, through probably paying strict attention, and hard studying, he put me in charge of the class. And out of that class came assistant ministers. Uh, Louis Omar is one of those brothers who was very, very good uh and the ministe was uh very please with him. Uh, [[9329 when I say minister, uh at that time, none of us would ever call him Malcolm, CB 9337 and I find it now, uh, uh a little strange just to say, "Malcolm." But we would always call him either, "Brother minister" or "Brother minister Malcolm." Never Malcolm. He was, he was treated as though he was uh the, the leader of a, of a, of a Nation, so to speak, you know? He got that kind of respect from us.]]9375

Q: OK. Let's cut for a second.

SPEED. MARK. FOUR.

Q: Um, uh Malcolm lived a, he, he lived a varied life in terms of his life before coming into the Nation. Talk about how he used that to form his ministry. What did he bring to it that uh affected how he, not only preach but, but also how he um he viewed the people that he was talking to. Or he was certain that he was reaching his ministry.

THIS IS UM BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X GOING ON TO SOUND ROLL SIXTY-NINE ON CAMERA ROLL ONE FORTY. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH BENJAMIN KARIM.

AND SPEEDING. FIVE.

Q: Can you talk to me about how Malcolm's past uh, how he formed his ministry, but also how he saw the people that were part of this organization, especially you, in particular?

Q: There's always, have a little password (unintel).

OK.

And you know, sometimes he would say things that you would have to understand him, to understand what he meant. Like when he said, CC 0236 "By enemies any means necessary." You would have to understand him, otherwise, you would become confused in trying to, to explain this. Um, there were, I remember one brother, his name was uh Gladstone. And Gladstone was uh, was a drug addict, but most of the people that came in weren't drug addicts, but I give an extreme case of, of, of a man that he related to with his own life. Gladstone, I brought Gladstone to the Mosque one day to hear the minister. And Gladstone had had uh had shot CC 0297 up so much heroin that puss was coming from the needle marks on both his arms, and he came in and he listened to the minister. As a matter of fact I sent a note up that there was a brother here who was really strung out on drugs, 0321[ and [he said that if you have a medicine, you can't prove your medicine on well people.You have to prove your medicine on sick people, and that, and that the uh uh, CC 0344 the message of Islam was strong enough to heal black people regardless of the mentai or physical condition that they were in.]]0361 Um,

many, many people came who were ^from college. Many had educati’-, uh had uh degrees, CC 0372 educated, other people just came from the streets that was connected with nothing. Most didn't go to church. Later on, there were a few people that came from the church, but most people like myself, and like he was. Was disconnected from the, from the uh religious institutions. Uh, and it was this kind of, of, of uh, of, of uh disconnection, and this kind of uh disbelief in suffering while you're here on Earth, and when you die you're gonna, you know, walk with golden CC 0419 slippers. It was his attitude toward, toward uh the, the, the, the, the uh preaching of Christianity, which most of us had rejected. Not God, but the Church. [0441 And it was these uh, uh areas in Malcolm’;/own life and his own attitudes toward the society, which was about the same as most of us who came in. [We were all young people that had been sort of dis’—, disenfranchised. And I fought in the CC 0469 Korean War, and when I came back to this country, nothing had changed. He, he, he related to us through, through himself. He related to us through his struggle in

studying. He studied for seven years in CC 0496 prison from uh a young kid that dropped out of school. And through, through studying he, he educated himself. You could say he sort of created his own mind frame, so to speak.]]0525

Q:Let's cut this now.

MARK. SIX.

Q: Let me know, what, what happened to Gladstone?

Gladstone that he had left some drugs for him at a candy store. This is a detective, and CC 0592 uh Gladstone went over to the uh candy store there on Lenox Avenue, and sure enough, this detective had left heroin for him. He couldn't believe that, that, that uh, uh that Gladstone could have heard anything that was powerful and persuasive enough to cause him to quit using drugs. He thought he was just playing a game. But he quit. That's, that's the type of impact that, that the minister CC 0643 had upon us. A myriad of problems were solved just through, you know, talking to us.

Q: Uh, describe for me and people, people, a lot of other people have done it, too, the um, the street rally. Give me a picture of what it was like um, on a Hundred twenty- fifth Street and Seventh Avenue. Like the, Malcolm would come out and uh have one of his large street rallies. What was the feeling in the air? What was it, what was the scene like?

those street rallies, there was a lot of CC 0705 preparation done by us. Huh, um, we would invite musicians like Ola Tundgey to play drums because black folks will follow drums. They would, he would bring the crowds. Naturally uh the uh the minister, minister, himself, but he would, he'd, he'd just, he loved music, number one. He loved music. Um, I give an example of a, of a rally that took place at a Hundred sixteenth Street and Lenox. And I think there are photographs, we see these people standing out there with umbrellas in the rain. Um, someone is CC 0767 holding an umbrella over his head, which was me, and, and Louis, too, we saw tha'—, and Henry. We sort of interchange. I'll give an example of uh, of uh, of uh a rally, and I don't, I like to use that one in particular. 0790[ In the beginning, it wasn't raining, it was cloudy, but it wasn't raining, and the minister began to, to, to, to speak and there brothers standing on rooftops, there were CC 0810 policeman with them, ma’-, matter of fact the police officers were there, and there's always a brother with the police officer. Because we didn't trust them, frankly. And

um, it started drizzling, and I'll give an give an pulled page example of uh how he could hold people at CC 0835 these rallies. Now I'm looking at this crowd, while the minister's talking and people stopped blinking their eyelids. I mean just stopped, normally you blink probably about fourteen time per minute, is the normal blinking of the eyelids, right? And these people just stopped, I mean, as though they were in a trance. And then you would see somebody do like this, i’-, i’-, probably the, the, the fluid evaporated on the eyeball and they realized that something CC 0886 was amiss, and it was as though they had come out of uh, uh a flashingly out of a, out of a trance. And then the people would go right back into it, without even blinking. It was strange. And it started raining that day. And somebody went and got an umbrella, and some of the people brought umbrellas, but all of those people that were there, the CC 0924 thousands of people, we blocked off the street from a Hundred and Sixteenth to probably a Hundred and Eighteenth Street, two blocks in both directions and all the traffic was, was, was halted coming through those

blocks. Um, I would say that, that his CC 0949 ability, it was, it was not just his person, but it was his message, and the things that he spoke of to the people, uh they were facts. It was his’-, it was history. And it was his abiiity to arrange it in his own way, it was nothing new, you know,] if just like a, a garment, A piece of cloth. It is your ability as a designer to make a different design from this same piece of cloth. Uh, that's what he could do. He could make a CC 1001 different design out of history than what's normally written in the books.]]1011

Q: OK. We just rolled out. Good.

WE'RE SPEEDING. SEVEN.

Q: Um, talk to me about um, uh Malcolm's concern with time. What was that about?

to go to hear Mr. Mohammed at whatever city CC 1197 or place that he would speaking at.]]1201 He, he said that, that, that, that time uh, I'll give an example. Be used to teach how time is calculated, OK? Perhaps people who are, are, are, or students, uh, uh those of us who, who may have had some uh ac’-, academic uh college education, we understand how time is calculated. But average person does not. 1251[[ And he used to break down the relationship between the sun, the moon, the stars, and the rotation of the Earth, in order to teach people how time is calculated and how, why CC 1274 time, why it's so important to be conscious.]]1281 He said, not only of clock time, but, but time where, where history, world events, is concerned. Not just events that happen to us here in this country, or that happens in this country, but events that happen in other parts of the world, and how it affects us here. So he, hi’—, his uh impressions of time, had to, all had to do with, with, with, with history. With, with, with, with, with CC 1330 what’s happening now, and, and what these events can lead to also being on time by your watch or by your clock when you had to be

somewhere. [[1349 And he would become very uh CC 1352 agitated if we didn't do things on time.] I'll give an example of that.]1363 When he was assassinated, he gave me an order, instructions, and I carried those instructions out immediately. We, [[1383 whenever he gave us any kind of instruction, they were to be carried out immediately. No one went and, and sat down and said, "Well, I'll do this later because uh the minister's not going to need this until tomorrow.", that kind of thing. We were trained to act on CC 1418 whatever he said at that moment, which has to do with time.]]1426 Had I, had I, had I been dif£erent and had I acted differently, I would of been killed because, not that I'm a brave person, but instinctively, I know that I would have, have pushed him out of the way or somehow, had I seen the action, jumped in front of him, or gotten involved. I would have, just from, just from uh, uh, um, like I said, not that I'm a brave person, but CC 1472 instinctively. Not just myself, any of us, that would have been with him. So it, that has something to do with time. [1485 Time, ti'- in other words, time conscious creates

discipline. And you cannot have a CC 1496 discipline, as he used to teach us, and not be conscious of time, events, and, and your watch.]]1512

Q: OK.Um, during your, these um, the um early days when in the uh, in the uh, in the Nation and as an assistant minister, did you se’-, were you able to, to uh personally see, you know, or um get a chance to encounter the relationship that, that uh

Q: OK.

Q: No, what i'm asking is um to encounter or, or to see um the friends, the relationships that, that, that Malcolm had with uh the Honorable Elijah Mohammad.

MARKING. EIGHT.

Q: Talking about uh as an assistant minister, recognizing the relationship, the special relationship that uh Malcolm had with uh the Honorable Elijah Mohammed.

Minister Malcolm's attitudes and even his pulled page CC 1644 thought patterns. He was uh, he was, he was he was uh Malcolm's advisor, so to speak. And as Malcolm used to say, "Mr. Mohammed taught me everything I knew. Mr. Mohammed teaches me this and teaches me that."Which he did but he didn't teach him everything he knew. But he would even give him credit for teaching him things that he even studied himseif and was not told to him by Mr. Mohammed.1690] Uh, I don’t, [I don't think that I have ever met any person, a man that was a CC 1699 follower, a follower of another man, with the same dedication that, that Minister Malcolm had for the Honorable Elijah Mohammed. And this is probably when those incidents took place, it just through him completely off- balance.] So much so that he told me one day that he thought his cells were bleeding. [ That his, his head was paining him to a point that he felt he thought his brain cells were bleeding. He'd just, had just come back from CC 1747 his doctor and from hearing the story about uh Mr. Mohammed and uh and those sisters and those children. He didn't believe that he

could do anything that was not totally correct.]]1772

Q: OK. When um, you, you remember seeing or encounter and talking to um, to uh, to Malcolm after the LA loss incident? And how, how was responding to that, uh what happens how does Malcolm deal with about there? How,how does Malcolm deal with about what, what goes on in, in Los Angeles?

or killing police o’-, officers. He, he, CC 1892 wasn't, he didn't mix his words about that.]]1896 So when he came back to uh the West Coast, the East Coast, the East Coast, to New York, he brought a photograph of um a brother Stokes, who had been um um an au'-, autopsy had been performed and you could see where he was sewn, and you could see the holes in his‘ head that was put there by the police officer. [[1935 He, he felt sort of let down, and a lot of us/did so to speak because we were CC 1944 people that said, "Never be the aggressor, but if someone attack you, we do not teach you to turn the other cheek." And there, there were Muslims who were rea’-, who were not from the East Coast, but from other parts of the country, that was actually ready to go out there um and kill those police officers. E’—, even though they may have been killed in the process of doing it, but that's how strong um, um the uh attitude of Muslims was CC 1997 against those brothers just being murdered and shot like that out gm the West Coast.]]2007 But he didn't, he, he, out he didn't um disobey Mr. Mohammed, he didn't go back out there in the...

Q: We just rolled out, but we'll pick that up.

ONE, CAMERA ROLL ONE FORTY-TWO, SOUND ROLL SEVENTY. CONTINUATION OF BENJAMIN KARIM.

Q: Can you talk to me about how um Mr. Mohammed's position on what happened in Los Angeles? How Malcolm responds to that.

gave one, one uh, um, um, uh variation and he gave another. But what really happened was CC 2636 they thought that those brothers were selling hot clothes and they was given, taken clothes out of a trunk and giving ’em to another brother to take to a cleaners. All right, 2650[[ Mr. Mohammed did not want any uh blood shed out there in California between Muslims and the police force. Why? I don't know. We were never told why he didn't want any , retaliation to take place. Malcolm never’ questioned Mr. Mohammed takin' ^him away from California and bringing him back to the Find sound edit West East CC 2687 Coast. And if he did question Mr. Mohammed's decision, he would never do that in front of Muslims. Whether he questioned it in his own mind, I don't know. But I've never known himto question any decision that Mr. Mohammed made. He would obey it, and that was it.]]2718 And I've never known him to disagree with CC 2722 anything until after he split and publicly, you know what that disagreement was really all about.

Q: Um, was um, I mean this is also, we're, we're getting into the, the, the uh, sixty-

two, sixty-three, and um, the um in sixty- three, Birmingham takes place in the South. And the three bombing of the Church takes place. How does Malcolm uh respond to that um there's been a description that when things like that happen, people really came to the Mosque ’cause they wanted to hear how, what Malcolm would say. Talk to me about that moment and how Malcolm responds to uh that, that incident.

there was no court of law that brought justice. The same thing happened when Emmet CC 2864 till Tilled was killed. Um, Minister Malcolm, Minister Malcolm sort of chided Martin Luther King, I guess chided is the right word, for, for,for allowing um uh incidents like that to happen.And then uh continue to tell those people to be peaceful and not retaliate.]]2904 (sirens ).

Q: OK.You, you said, you mentioned that uh there was a, that, that um, Malcolm wants to send um people down to train like the men themself, what happened to that?And how’d that fit into the, the larger plan of possibly being somewhat involved in Civil Rights activities for what was going on in the South.

actually prepared and trained to go down CC 3095 South and to, and to teach young brothers out in the countryside to, to assassinate whites. White men who were killing black people and going unpunished.] And we felt that was just. And it's still just to murder someone, then you should be punished. [That never, never materialized uh and I,I think that a lot of us sort of became dissatisfied because, [and Malcolm really became somewhat dissatisfied, he never spoke of it, that we weren't doing anything to help the uh, our people who were being brutalized in uh, by uh, uh the whites and the police during the Civil Rights CC 3175 Movement. We felt that we should, we should have gotten involved. Not, not peacefully in, you know, being brutalized, but that we should have been able to retaliate or train those people to retaliate.]]3195

MARK.ELEVEN.

Q: Given that, that there isn't why, why didn't that happen, why, why didn't uh that, that plan follow through?

Q: OK. Um, when the um March in Washington happens, Malcolm and, and Temple number seven, you guys have another major rally around it, what is he feelings about it? What he s’-, what happens in Washington, and how does he express it?

Q: Change rolls.

MARK. TWELVE.

Q: Talk to me about the way things were there. And the um, and how that affected any, the relationship that the Nation of Islam had with any Civil Rights Movement or organization?

Q: OK. And explain that to me, ex’-, explain the gulf and where they, how they would (unintel).

or, or the American Muslims. Well let me use the word, the term Black Muslims which Eric CC 3604 Lincoln coined and just automatically accepted after a while. And the, and the Civil Rights Movement.

Q: Can you start again with "There was a gulf..."?

that took place against the African people that were brought here. We didn't see a CC 3717 future here in this country.]]3719 All right? The Civil Rights Movement was just the opposite. They believed that the best uh, uh, um, uh, uh asset was for black children to go to white schools that because white schools had the best equipment, they had better teachers. We believed that black schools could update themselves by updating their equipment and by bringing in teaching those sciences that were relevant to us and to broaden those sciences, and that was one of Malcolm's complaints. CC 3770 When he wanted to be a lawyer, they told him, you know, "You, you should be something else." All right, we felt that, that, that, that our children should go into sciences like geology, uh oceanography, uh biochemistry, uh life sciences, because there, as we were taught, there is much in this world, there were trees that had medicines that could cure people, and the fact that we're, we were more involved in CC 3812 psychology and sociology and that kind of thing. So the gulf between the Civil Rights Movement and the, and the Nation of Islam,

was, I guess you could say, it was like the CC 3829 gulf between the night and the day. That there was nothing that could bring us together on common ground. There was no common ground.

Q: Um, so when um, when Malcolm sees the um, uh, so, so Malcolm stops the relationship say with people like uh Adam Clayton Powell, and other members of the New York committee community. On what grounds are, are those relationships developed? On what grounds does begin to um, uh to develop a Nation of Adam Clayton Powell, Percy Sutton, Jessy Gray, people like this in uh, in Harlem?

Adam Clayton Powell was one of the first people to begin boycotting,especially in, here in Harlem uh a Hundred and twenty—fifth Street. He, he was,he was an activist, plus Adam Clayton Powell was not a person who just taught non—violence, you know, someone kick you or cut you or you just bleed, and he was very militant.]]3987 He knew how to handle himself, he knew how to handle his white constituents in Washington DC, and I think Malcolm liked that. [4000 I think that's what he saw in Powell, he saysomething of, of his own boldness in Powell,]4009 Um, uh a Gray, I believe, Gray was a so involved in uh in CC 4019 boycotting or something of that nature. But that, that, that had to do with an economic factor, and he believed that, that uh um where we spend our money, we should be able to work. And Malcolm, he, he went for that. That, that uh, uh those businesses should be controlled by the people in the community which, which was us. So he sort of um,of uh, uh could, could, could uh relate to them CC 4061 because they weren't just teaching turn the other cheek, they were actively involved in making some economic progress. And Adam

Clayton Powell was being uh, uh an astute CC 4079 politician is what I believe that uh had some common ground for us to work with them. Also Dr. Grammerson.

Q: Now tell me when did you begin to feel or to sense that there was some, there's some rumbling within the Nation around Malcolm's stature and his his place within uh the Nation of Islam.

buy, buy himself a new car because Malcolm CC 4199 drove like a race car driver down the highway, and travelling to different places, the car could break down, and you know, he would be stranded. And the reason why he wouldn't go and buy a car was because he said he didn't want the other ministers to become jealous of him. The reason why, how he, how he got the Oldsmobile, that he finally uh, uh did get, Captain Joseph Emacio, Secretary Emacio went and bought the car for him. [4247 So um, there, [there were jealousies uh among the CC4252 uh, some of the ministers of uh, of Malcolm from the beginning, not just toward the end, you know. It was there all the time. But in the end you, you saw it materialize verbally. But these are pent-up uh envies that was already there. And, and the incident, him splitting just gave it uh an opportunity to release itself.]]4294

Q:Let me get that ’cause I, um he um, there's a story that um, that you're all in a restaurant when you hear about the Kennedy assassination. Um, were you there at the moment, at that time in the restaurant, when,

when um, someone gets a phone call and, and the uh assas'-, and you find out about the assassination and Malcolm goes back to call Chicago with instructions.Do you remember that? Can you talk about that?

Q: Tell me what, what happened when, when he found out that Kennedy had been, when, when the temple, when you find out at the temple that Kennedy had been assassinated and give instructions, what happened? Talk about that?

Q: (unintel), and he says, "Well, if you're going down a road and you know..." Who is that then?

Q: Yes.

Q: Who was that?

reason we had, or he had a conversation about Farmer that day. And the fact that, that, that/at some (audio cuts).

UH THIS WILL BE UH ON CAMERA ROLL ONE FORTY FOUR SOUND ROLL SEVENTY-ONE. AND UH CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH BENJAMIN KARIM.

Q: What did you think when you heard it and after that?

There were some people who did believe that CC 5104 he could die, there were many who didn't. And they seemed to be among those people who believed that, and they wanted to get, get Minister Malcolm out of the way because if Mr. Mohammed had passed, then the only one they could see that could take his place was Malcolm X.] [When uh John Ali uh went back to Chicago and told Mr. Mohammed he had made this statement, then Malcolm was suspended for ninety days.] Uh, [during that ninety days we were, I, at least I did, I went over and talked to him and he told me what had happened.He said, "John Ali was the one CC 5156 that was responsible for him being suspended."]]5161 Um, the chickens coming home to roost is not really a negative statement. It's not the kind of statement that would say, "Hey you s’-, you spoke negative about Kennedy when it, he was speaking his story historically Now I found out about it from him, directly, of why he was set down because of that CC 5194 statement, as opposed to all the other things he said concerning John Kennedy in his, in his speech.

Q: 'Kay. Stop for a second. Now the people um found, so you're saying that he's silenced not because of the statement, but for other reasons?

Q: What were the other reasons he was silenced.

MALCOLM.

Q: Hm?

MALCOLM.

Q: Yes. Yes. So you're saying that Malcolm is silenced for other reasons. What are the other reasons why Malcolm is. What are, what are those reasons why Malcolm is silenced, do you feel?

honest, um he was sincere, he was dedicated CC 5268 to the uplifting of African American people. Then you have another group of people who were officials there in Chicago who were, who were dedicated to the uplifting of themselves. He accused them of taking money, of buying expensive jewelry, of buying furs. He accused them of converting uh the Nation of Islam into a criminal organization. You see? CC5315 So he was a threat.] He was a threat simply because he was honest and he was truthful and he was dedicated to the uplifting of black people.]5329 That's that was the main threat, and he was a believer. He was a very religious person. That's another thing about him. He was deeply religious and he had a very strong, unwavering belief in God.

Q: So um, in, in Chicago there, there's uh, uh officials that are part of the Nation of Islam feel that number one, no’-, Elijah Mohammed might die, that Malcolm would in a position that he would be the heir apparent there. And talk to me about that.

Q: Sorry. It bothers me.Now, again, you, you've got to give me names. When you say...

Q: , No, no, 'cause no. But you're saying "he" a lot. You're saying "he" and you're talking about Elijah Mohammed.

Q: ...and you say, "he" and it's Malcolm. I need to know which one you're talking about. And so the names, and officials, tell us what

you mean by officials, the officials of the Nation, or?

Q: Yeah.

Q: So you just don't say, if you say "officials" we don't know who you're talking. Official politicians...

Q: No, no. I don't think they did, they did.

OK. MARK. FOURTEEN.

Q: OK. We were talking about the officials in Chicago and their concern about Malcolm, and the possible, possibility of Elijah Mohammed might die and how that, how's that feed the danger you'd gotten yourself in?

told me, he said that they used it to invest CC 5553 in some business or something of that nature. Um, I think that's too, that too was the straw that broke uh, uh the camel's back a, as opposed to um, uh Mr. Mohammed and the thing that happened there with those sisters. I think it was his dissatisfaction with the officials in Chicago, more so than Mr. Mohammed, that, that actually caused him to make that announcement that he_had officially split from the Nation of Islam.]]5608

Q: Um, isn't for, uh, when a minister is silenced like that, isn't there a ne’-, uh a procedure that's supposed to take place within the Nation where they have a hearing? Um, and why didn't Malcolm have um a this hearing for his uh, at his temple?

Q: Did, did, did Malcolm feel um during those days that his relationship with Mr. Mohammed would, would um, would be, help him sustain himself and,and, and see himself through the difficulty he's having with the inner circle there in Chicago?

that he had with Mr. Mohammed over the telephone, and he read this into a tape. And he said this was his, his life insurance.]]5890 Um, Macio, who was the secretary would tape, Mini’-, Minister uh Malcolm, who was the secretary at number seven, would take Minister Malcolm some money because at that time, I think he was making something like seventy-five dollars or, or maybe a little more per week to maintain his family. Eh, not enough to save or to have any money left over. Uh, during that time, I don't think from conversations that he had with me, CC 5937 Minister Malcolm had with me, gave me the impression that even though I told him, concerning uh the telephone call that if he comes back, they came in from Chicago, to the, to number seven, and um Captain Joseph was told that if Malcolm come back give him a job working in the restaurant washing dishes. Had that not come through, I doubt very much if he would have attempted to come back into CC 5979 the Nation of Islam. So he asked me one night, when he, after he finished playing this tape, it may have been destroyed in a fire. I don't know. I've never heard it

again. Or, or even heard about it again. That what do I think? Do I think that Mr. Mohammed.

WE JUST ROLLED OUT ON THIS SIDE.

WE WILL BE MOVING ON TO... MARK. FIFTEEN.

Q: OK. Um, Malcolm talks to you about whether Elijah Mohammed will allow him to teach outside the Nation. Talk to me about that conversation at his house.

sisters. This, this is what, what um, was CC 6097 what actually came down. I don't know anything about that. He didn't spread any rumors. But they accused him of it. And so we were up in his attic one night, and he started talking to me about it. And that's, that's when he played this tape, and he asked me what did I think about it. And I told him, "Nothing." Just like that. I said, "Nothing." So he said, "Do you think that Mr. Mohammed would allow me to teach outside of the Nation of Islam, and send people to CC 6148 him, as opposed to being a minister within the Nation of Islam?" And the only thing I said, "I don't see why not." [6163 But see [ Malcolm had a way of, of, of, of, of bouncing stuff off of you, to see how, to see how it, how it sounds. To see what kind of feedback you would give him, or I would give him. But he had, I believe that he had made his mind up, that he was not going to come back within the confines and under the, the, the uh, um, CC 6201 I guess you could say, somewhat control of the, of the uh officials there in Chicago] He saw this corruption, and he knew that his, his uh, uh, uh his abilities or, or, or his

freedom as a spokesman would have been uh interrupted and limited.]]6241

Q: Uh, tell me, you, you mentioned this thing about rumors. What is, what is the rumor that people are spreading and that Malcolm is supposedly responsible for spreading uhm?

Q: Start, start that again, let me hear who all the people were talking about.

That the newspapers would get a hold of it and that the news media would get a hold of it, then it could send shock waves through the Nation of Islam, whether it was true or false, it could raise questions. You know, it could weaken uh people's belief.]]6358 It could cause all kinds of uh give, give your enemies all kinds of clubs to beat you over the head with.6369[ And [ what he did, he called them together and told them to begin to teach on CC 6377 the prophet of the Bible and on their imperfections, ]]6383 like Noah. I think after the flood, accordingto the Bible, Noah got drunk. A lot after the Sodom and Gomorrah, Gomorrah, he committed incest with his daughter. David got his general killed, Ahab, I believe in order to have his wife. 6409[ So to teach, [to teach these imperfections of prophets, and yet they remained prophets, would have softened the impact of the media had this story gone to press. This was his CC 6432 main objective, and what, what, what the uh officials did was to accuse him of, of, of spreading the rumor, as opposed to trying, to trying get uh bring the ministers together and give them some understanding. To teach

in such a way that if the media got a hold of it, then the Muslims would have been able to absorb the impact without shattering into little pieces. ]]6474

Q: OK. And uhm this, and what you're saying is that what, what really was behind uh the, the real tension and the, and the, uh I guess an attack against Malcolm at this point was really, had more to do with power, greed, and not anything that had to do with any rumor or anything like that.

not you know, it can couse uh, you know, problems for you.

Q: Give me that, talk, talk about Malcolm's uhm press persona. What is, what is that public persona that Malcolm has that, that comes across to the press? And how, how are those in the, in the Nation of Islam, or within the inner circle you should talk about the responding to that uhm image that Malcolm has uhm, you know, in the press.

Q: Give me a minute. Now? I mean your, your speaking of then or now?

Q: Uhm, let me say now uhm...(audio cuts).

SPEED. MARK. SIXTEEN.

Q: Talk to me about Malcolm's public image that comes across to the press and how that is affecting his position, his place within the Nation? How do they perceive the image?

the officials in Chica o used that against Malcolm, and actually went along with the press. ]]6803

Q: Now, uhm, let's cut there.

SPEEDING. MARK. SEVENTEEN.

Q: Let's talk about his decision to, to go on his own and start the Muslim Mosque and how, how did, how good the decision is for him, as well as for you, the followers.

were left behind, or not left behind, but hadn't, had not left the, if you, when he made that uh, that announcement, I don't think there were any Muslims that left the Nation of Islam before he made the announcement that he officially left. There were hundreds of Muslims, I would say maybe thousands throughout the country, that left...

Q: Just told me, start at there, there were thousands, after he made his announcement there were, after Malcolm made his announcement...

Q: You're gonna start, you're, you're confusing, you mean that Malcolm is splitting from Islam, that's what you want to say to me.

Q: You said he was still a follower.

UH THIS WILL BE SOUND ROLL SEVENTY-TWO ON CAMERA ROLL ONE FORTY-SIX. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH BENJAMIN KARIM.

MARK. EIGHTEEN.

that caused m’-, I know I did, myself. And CC 7611 there were many others who left because of that.] All right. [When I was told to uh to condemn Minister Malcolm, that was something that we didn't do. Never was there a time that you would condemn a brother who was suspended. If, if, if uh, if I was, If you were suspended, and I talked about you, then they would give me the same time that you were given. So I question why they wanted me and some of the other assistant ministers to condemn Malcolm for something that, at that time, I didn't know what it was. All I knew it was just the uh statement that he made ]]7673 CC 7674 But they knew the other thing. Uh, that was sort of strange to me. And the Sunday that I left, a lot of Muslims left, not because of me, but because they were already dissatisfied. And I think that's, that's something that should also be understood about Muslims that left from all over this country, that left the Nation of Islam. It did not necessarily mean that they were dissatisfied with Mr. Mohammed, himself, but CC 7717 they were dissatisfied with the corruption that they knew was happening among the

officials. Uhm, when Minister Malcolm made CC 7734 the announcement of, of, of uh, of uh setting up Muslim Mosque, Incorporated, well they were Muslims, the first people that came with him were Muslims, and as Muslims, you have to have a Mosque. You, you can't, you ca’-, you're, you're no longer members of the Nation of Islam. You have to have a Mosque. Uh, Minister uh Iman W.D. Mohammed was, I would say more than any single person, was responsible for introducing Minister Malcolm to, to, to Islam, as practiced.

Q: Cut, cut there.

SPEEDING. MARK. NINETEEN.

Q: Talk about the Muslim restaurant.

meeting place of uh, of people that wanted to talk to the Minister, Minister Malcolm. Uh, it served as a point for those uh to, to, to, uh, uh come to, or, or Muslims who came from out of state or other countries, or, or wherever, Africa, Asia.]]7862 The restaurant was, it, you know it, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of difficult to find any equation to explain it, but you could go out, 7885[[ most of the uh, if we weren't having meetings, if Minister Malcolm was in town, uh he was CC 7895 there, and it's where we would sit around the table and, and drink coffee and eat bean pie, uh ice cream. And there was a sister there, her name was Llona, who was, who was one of the greatest cooks that, that, that God ever allgwed to, to uh, to, to put a spoon in her hand.]]7926 Uh, it, it...

MARK. TWENTY.

Q: There was a sister there who was a cook.

If they did, they drank it somewhere else. Uhm, so we, we had sort of uhm, uhm, I guess you could say, found the Mosque, I mean the restaurant as an oasis that was isolated from, from the, from the outside ^world that we no longer involved ourselves in that particular lifestyle, even though we had the connections and the influence, that we influenced a lot of people, but we didn't, we didn't involved ourselves in the, in that type of lifestyle that most of the people were living, and we didn't even watch sports, you know like CC 8160 baseball, football. We studied. As he said, we didn't have time for that. So you can, you can understand that we would have to have somewhere that we could gather as, as birds of a feather gathering together. [[8185 You may walk in the restaurant, might walk in the restaurant and Red Fox is standing up in there talking to uh Minister Malcolm because they knew each other before he became a Muslim and before he went to prison. Uhm, [Gordon Parks, I think CC 8207 he was the first person that Minister Malcolm allowed to come into the, the Mosque and take pictures, or, or to film. So the restaurant was, was, was, and also a learning place.

It's where brothers would come sometimes to study, to uh, to uh, where Min’-. Minister Malcolm would be sitting around a table teaching us things.]]8241 He, if he just came from Chicago, you woulgj ind*a whole, as they say down South, a whole a mess of brothers around him wanting to know what did Mr. Mohammed say.Uhm, eh, it, it was, it was a pivotable, a pivotal uh, uh, uh, uhm point CC 8275 among Muslims that everything sort of rotated around the restaurant and the Mosque where we were concerned.

Q: So, the, you had music in there, you had a jukebox. Tell me about the music and Malcolm...

sensuous. Then you have blues uh as he was saying, "My baby left me...", and we didn't have those problems of, of, of that kind of relationship, uhm, that a lot of the blues has a tendency to influence your emotions. I've heard people listen to blues and break down and, and start crying because of some relationship that they had, and they no longer have. And it was because of that, not that it's not a very important part in our, in our history in this country, but it is, it CC 8397 is the influence that blues is heavy and it can, and it can bring back memories to people uh who have, who have had losses that the blues may sort of typify, and we didn't live that kind of lifestyle anymore. And that was the only music uh that he did not allow on the jukebox because of this emotional influence that it could have on, on some of the uninitiated people.

Q: Talk, talk to me about uhm, uhm we're back into he's, he's left the Nation of Islam. He's organized the Muslim Mosque and Malcolm begins to, he starts to, to go to Africa, to take a Haj. How did you respond

when uh Malcolm starts writing letters back and he starts describing stuff and especially (unintel) that begins to talk uhm, start that whole different understanding of, of white people.

Q: We rolled out of film.

AND MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL ONE FORTY-SEVEN ON SOUND ROLL SEVENTY-TWO.

SPEEDING. MARKER. TWENTY-ONE.

Q: Uhm, tell me how you feel when you see the letter Malcolm wrote on a Haj, uh thatShavanaz gets uh, when, when he's talking about white Muslims. And what did he say to you?

Europe. But we looked at those Muslims in Europe in the same manner that we saw white people in this country. They, they were all devils, regardless of where they were. Whether Muslim, Christian, or, or Jewish, as long as they were Europeans, as far as we were taught, that they were all devils. This was believed one hundred percent. And those, though,[when he wrote the letter back, sure enough, they, they, they used it. The Muslims uh, the officials in the Nation of Islam used that against him to say he's CC 8740 fallen in love with, with, with white people,] etcetera. All right. They knew better, you know, they had traveled. And [they knew that, that uh, that there were people in this world that were, that were white or Caucasian orEuropean, that weren't racist. You see? Butnevertheless, they did not want Minister Malcolm to gain a foothold of power in this country or, or to bring uh African American people together without the influence of the CC 8795 Nation of Islam.]] I was afraid of that.]8801 I was afraid of, of the uh the use of, of, or,. or the, or the utilization, negative utilization of that statement by officials of

the Nation of Islam who would twist it and feed it to people who were absolutely or, oractually still gullible. You see? Who, who weren't aware, who was not aware of, or, or did not have a global perspective. That's, I was, I was afraid of that more than anything else.

Q: How did, how, how about Malcolm's attempts to uhm appeal African nations about the plight African Americans uhm and the need to translate our, our uhm struggle into a human rights struggle. Is something that as a group was discussed and was a part of his, his, his plan or his ideas when he leaves to go to Africa and starts making these uhm, these connections.

there and he came back and he, he was telling us the hold, as he said, that, that Westernfinancial circles, at that time, had upon many countries in Africa,] and that he, [he was also appalled by that fact that uh, how, how ignorant the African men kept their women, in terms of, of uh education. He talked about that, and he said that uhm that, that the Africa, that Africa would never develop until she educates her women.]]9008 And he equated that to uh the white uh man here in America. CC 9017 Sometimes he would use, he didn't always look at white people in a negative way, there were many positive things. He said, "How could the white man have achieved his world without educating his women, or our women, or women, period?" [9044 And he, he, he uh, he uh, he sort of uh, [he was sort of let down by that aspect of Africa and he found that, there was no African nation or country or government at that time that was going to allow him to use their podium because of fear of retaliation CC 9014 from Western financial interests.]]9077 And I think Nyeri, President Nyeri was responsible for, for uh get’-, getting the uhm podium there to speak in Cairo before the OAU in uh

sixty-four, who was at that time, I believe, the uh the President, Premier of uh Tanzania.

Q: Uhm, you'd say once befo’-, earlier that Malcolm created the icon of, of Mr. Mohammed helps to destroy. What, what did you mean by that? That he creates, that he created the, the uh, what did, what did you mean by that, he create the image of Elijah Mohammed uh, uh, uh ...?

saw Mr. Mohammed as, as uh, uh flesh and blood human being uh just like uh everyone else. And matter of fact, we all saw Mr. Mohammed the same way, so I guess you could say we were all guilty of, of some of us didn't even believe the man could, could even die.]]9257

Q: so what did you think that when Malcolm's finds out about Elijah Mohammed's adultery, he is devastated about that?

wrink1es up in his forehead and you know he was concerned about something, you know. So he told me, he said, "You know, I just came from my doctor." You know, he, uh his doctor was uh, uh a female, and he said, "I went to her because my head," he said, "my head was hurting me so bad that I thought my brain cells were bleeding."] And it was from uhm Iman WD Mohamme ; w o is Iman today. Why were, then why was Mohammed uh told him about this thing, his, his father and these CC 9389 sisters. That, that was the effect that it had upon him, so you can, you can understand what, what a shock it was to Minister Malcolm to, to hear this about a man that, that he knew, or, or, or didn't even believe could even die at that time.]]9427

THIS IS UH SOUND ROLL SEVENTY-THREE, CAMERA ROLL ONE FORTY-EIGHT. UH, CONTINUATION INTERVIEW WITH BENJAMIN KARIM.

SPEEDING. AND MARK. TWENTY-TWO.

Q: Talk to me about the uh the idea of the little family. Malcolm's, how Malcolm helps create that idea of about the family and something that you had in some way comes back to haunt Malcolm.

Q: Just a second. Do you want that light on?

YEAH.

SPEEDING. MARK. TWENTY-THREE.

Q: Talk to me about the uh (unintel).

be1ieved this, he wasn't just, one thing about him, he believed what he said he believed in. He, he, he, he wouldn't, he didn't, he, I don't know of any instant where he uh tried to, to, to, to, to trick anyone into thinking that he believed something he didn't believe in. At whatever point in his life that he believed in the thing, when he s’-, when he met those Caucasians at Mecca, that was exactly the truth. when he said, "All whites were devils.", he believed that at that time. And, the fact that Mr. CD 0277 Mohammed was uhm uhm, uhm supposed to have met God in person here on this Earth, and being the l’-, the last prophet, not prophet Mohammed of fourteen hundred years ago, and this is where the conflict came between the Nation o£_Islam and Muslims in the Muslim world. 0308[ To uh Mr. Mohammed was the Mohammed of the Koran. He was the Elijah of the Bible ‘cause when Elijah come, he would turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, CD 0326 etcetera. That was the Elijah Mohammed, and uh what Minister Malcolm did, he, he, he went into the Bible and, and the Koran to, to show that m’-, that, that Mr. Mohammed, Elijah

Mohammed was the prophet that was predicted, predicted that would come and, and, and, and put black people, African Americans, on top of civilization as a people.] When I say on top, I mean economically, politically, spiritually, and educationally.]0381

Q: OK. so how did, how did this thing come, become a, something that could potentially uh create, be a, be a danger for him, this idea of the, of the family?

you're life can be put on the line.]]0493 Such as, uh, uh Solomon Rusty Salman Rushdie, he, he was supposed to have been a Muslim. Uh, the book that he wrote, The Muslim World, uh, uh said he was a hypocrite, 0511[ so, and when you, when you're called a hypocrite in m’-5 [in Islam, there 18 a possibility that that, that charge can cause you to be killed by those who believe.]]053

Q: So Malcolm's called a hypocrite for what? Why is he a hypocrite?

AND THERE'S A MARKER. TWENTY-FOUR.

Q: You noted once that there were writings of ministers who spoke out against Malcolm, where they spoke about him as a hypocrite. Uhm, talk to me about that campaigning. What did that do in terms of seeding the, the, you know, the uh environment of danger that Malcolm is having to confront.

as long as Minister Malcolm was alive. So when you have a newspaper and the whole, all of the Muslims in the United States that followed Mr. Mohammed, that was in the Nation of Islam, read the same thing which, which, which prevented any other minister from, from weakening that position. That, that the newspaper more or less dictated the party line against Mr. Mohammed, I mean against Malcolm X.

Q:Did, were, you, you talked about being in a room when uh...

MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL ONE FORTY-NINE. WE'RE ROLLING. TWENTY-SIX UP.

MARKER. TWENTY-SIX.

Q: Talk about hearing about the uh, the uh, the uhm bomb that uhm was supposed to be placed in Malcolm's car.

Q: Stop.

SPEEDING. MARKER. TWENTY-SEVEN.

Q: Talk to me about the uh, not caring about the bomb (unintel).

Q: Start again and tell me how you, you, you heard or something about, so we understand what you're talking about. I'm not sure you can say it uhm...

Q: OK. Uhm, so where were you when, when Malcolm's house is robbed? And how you, how you find out about it?

uh, that day. Not at that time when it was happening.

Q: How is Malcolm uhm after that incident?

Q: Now, is this when Malcolm begins to start. saying that uhm, uhm, that he could, that maybe the Muslims are not behind it?

Q: Uh I don't know what you're saying when you say that.

Q: Uhm, you say they were, why, why, why do feel, why do you think it was them?

Q: You find yourself not long after this uh in the Callahan Tunnel in Boston, and you confronted, your, your car is chased through the tunnel, talk to me about what happens then in Boston in the tunnel.

Q: Stop a second.

WE'RE ROLLING. MARKER. TWENTY-EIGHT.

for granted. But when they saw the gun, they moved back to their car. In the meantime, Malcolm's cousin is ramming this, this beautiful uh Lincoln with this old raggedy Cadillac, and uh had just dented the film up, I mean, uh the uh the fender. The left fender was just, just torn to pieces, and we finally broke away and we went up into the uh airport uh side of the airport uh, uhm, I think it was uh Mo’-, uh hawk, Mohawk uh, yeah, uh airline. ‘And uh, we were standing CD 1892 in, in uh, in Eastern airlines lobby there and police came up and arrested us, we still had the shotgun there.But that, that incident uh was uh, was really designed to assassinate Minister Malcolm, but he wasn't there that Sunday.

Q: That's good.

SPEEDING. TWENTY-NINE.

Q: Are you uhm aware during this amount of time of you having sensed the right time that

you grouped it, that the groups that are assigning Malcolm had infiltrated this point five in this (unintel)?

Q: OK. Stop.

THIS IS BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION OF UH MALCOLM X SHOW EIGHT HUNDRED ON CAMERA ROLL ONE FIFTY, SOUND ROLL SEVENTY-FOUR. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH BENJAMIN KARIM.

SPEEDING, MARK. THIRTY.

Q: And uh make sure that we're talking, we're talking, we know what we're talking about police and FBI, you say internal, internal security. Could, could uhm, you were aware of any sort of police or FBI or any sort of infiltration within the group during that last year? Was it possible for it to happen?

especially the uh OAAU and uh we weren't uh even Muslim Mosque, Incorporated was not having any kind of secret Mosque meeting, [2595 but there, [there was an, there was an inner circle of Muslims that, that could not be infiltrated within that circle because no one was recruited to come into it. Uhm, but as far as the uhm, uh, uh group, itself, or may I say the OAAU of, of course. There, there's, any time you, you pull together any kind of organization, anyikind of group, nine times out of ten, you're going to be CD 2640 infiltrated by the FBI or some other uh police agenc even Church groups are infiltrated.]]2652 But the, the, the difference between us and perhaps some other group is that they cannot send in what they call agent provocateurs. In other words, eh, no one could come in among us and provoke us to do anything that, that Minister Malcolm or before uh he left the Nation of Islam, or CD 2691 that Mr. Mohammed did not order to be done. So the only thing that agents could do that infiltrated us was to just pass on information. They couldn't do things to get

us in trouble. Because we didn't follow anything like that.

Q: Now, was it also a concern about uh those, the puff being infiltrated or, or uh, uhm, I, people were still loyal to the Nation of Islam.

Q: Did you know, uhm, this uh person whose been identified as a police informer and infiltrator uh...

Q: In the group, did, were you aware of him, did you know who brought him into the group?

Q: Uhm, talk to me about this uhm, discussing...

MARKER. THIRTY-ONE.

Q: OK. You tell me, what I'd like you to do first is describe for me what happens that last day. You're uhm, when uhm, when you get to the ballroom, what you see, and then take me through, even up to that last day.

bad omen to see him do that. It, I, I felt very strange behind this, and matter of fact, there was an old uh Iman that was sent here from uh, when I say, Iman, uh it's like a Muslim preacher who's, who is uh astute in the, in the scripture. Uhm, and he, he's from the Sudan, and he sat across the table from me right there at the stage, and he said, uhm, he said, "This is awful.” No, he said, he said, he said, "This is, is uhm, uh, uhm..." In other words, he used the word for, for pleasant, but that's not what he meant, he meant it was awful. But he wasn't CD 3229 good at uh, uh English. So anyway, I was ca’-, Ma’-, uh Sarah came and got me, and said, "The Minister wants you to open up.” So I went back, and he asked uhn, "How are you going o’-, how are you going to open up?" Well he didn't have the charter for the OAAU that he had been promising the uh members for some tine. so I told him I would open up in such a way that uh told Minister Malcolm I would open up in such a way what that the CD 3270 audience would accept the fact that he did not have the charter again, after promising so many times, that he would have that

charter.Well, he said, "OK." when uhm, [329 so I did, [I opened up for him. And I didn't hear him comehoutgon stage. Malcolm had a way of walking. He was tall and, and, and, and all that, but he had a way of walking across the floor, unless you was looking, hecould tip, and you didn't even know he had crossed the floor. And he had set down behind me. And some, he had placed a paper, a sheet of paper on a chair that was off to my right, and when I looked down at my notes, CD 3332 I saw his hand reach for a sheet of paper that he had laid, and evidently he was, he uh was conscious, or recognized that I had seen his hand reach for that piece of paper, and he said, "Make it plain."Make it plain is, is the code word that he, he used for us to, to bring him forward. so in a way I did, I brought Minister Malcolm forward, he didn't like a lot of ice in icy, you know, "Here's Minister Malcolm the great!", and all that. He didn't like that. Just, just, just plain, CD 3378 you know. And as I was about to set sit down, he, he, he stopped me, he said, "Go in the back and tell them to let me know the minute Reverend Glamerson comes in." And after

that, everybody knows that's why I wasn't out there on that stage, is he was assassinated, I was there in about twenty seconds. And the only thing he got an opportunity to say, I believe was, "Hold it, hold it!”]]3418 And that was, it was taped, and a bullet went through the mic, you can hear it on the tape, and it cut the uh tape off.

Q: Uhm, there were a couple of things that happened that they were, that uhm, there was no being searched that day in the, the ballroom, and there was no police protection. How was that decided, those things that happened that day?

turning people back if they had been drinking and that kind of thing.out ]]3512

WE ROLLED OUT. SORRY.

MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL ONE FIFTY-ONE ON SOUND ROLL SEVENTY-FOUR.

SPEEDING. MARK. THIRTY-TWO.

Q: Talk to me about why no one was searched and why the police were not at the scene that last week. There had been uh concern about violence, but there was no one on the scene and no search. Explain why. Tell me why.

day when Malcolm was assassinated. Uhm, the reason why uh there was no searching is that, that meeting was a meeting of the political organization, the OAAU. The uh, uh searches went on in the Nation of Islam because it was a religious meeting and the fact that there were things being ^said that could probably uh incite some of our people to, to violence or to, or, or may want to uh, you know, do something that would harm uh someone there at the meeting because of the, of the uh CD 3641 volatile uh rhetoric that uh,that we uh espoused, expounded upon. But [[3655 this Sunday uh Malcolm had eliminated all searches because he didn't want people to uh say, "Well, this is the same as the Nation of Islam. They turned me back because uh I had drinked or beer or, or, or something of that nature." It was, it was a political meeting, and he did not want them to, didn't want it to CD 3692 appear as though it was a religious meeting, quote end quote "Nation of Islam" type of, of meeting.]]3703 So that, that wasn't uh strange.

that they had seen had a dress rehearsal uhm for the assassination, with, within weeks of that day?

Q: But that was a part of the, discussed before, or any concern about something like that happening, had happened before?

Q: Well they said, people say that on the streets, there was, the word was out on the streets, you know, weeks before that

something was going to happen to Malcolm. Is this true?

Q: Describe the scene in the, in the back room before Malcolm comes out.You said that he's, he's, I mean un'-, unusually tense and

upset. Talk about what happens in there right before.

Q: To Malcolm.

EXCUSE ME, MY BATTERY JUST WENT OUT

SPEEDING. MARK. THREE. THIRTY-THREE.

Q: Tell me what happens in the back room before uh you go out. Talk to me about Malcolm's hesitations (unintel).

SPEEDING. MARK. THIRTY-FOUR.

Q: OK. You start with I never, I never seen Minister Malcolm...

Q: Start now, OK?

1ooking at him, and I felt, I felt as though something very heavy was pressing down on my shoulders, as, as though I had, I was weighing twice as much as my normal weight.]]412 In other words, I could feel my weight at, at the point that my feet touched the f1oor. And uhm, it was just, it was just uh, [4144 you know, [I felt that there were something ominous in the, in the, in the, in the air. And I'm sure that what I felt was what he was feeling, or something of what he was feeling.] CD 4164 When you ca’ -, you work very closely with a person, then sometimes, their feelings can be transferred ]4173 so to speak, you may not be able to read it directly and tell what it's all about. But you can pick up these vibrations.

Q: Did he say anything that made you uh, did you even know that he was feeling the same things?

that's, that really disturbed him. erhat he was disappointed by the African governments, that no one relinquish there uh podium for him to uh bring the qnited States before the United Nations.]]4257 But one thing, we had a meeting and he asked me, he asked me "Where do you think I should go next?" I told him,"Indonesia." Because of the relationship that Sacono had already threatened to pull out of the United Nations and there was a big CD 4281 disagreement and animosities between Sacono and the US government at that time. But that was the only place, that other place that we could think of, was in Asia, since there was no African country that uh felt free enough to rel’-, relinquish there uh podium to him.

Q:Uhm, after uhn, after you hear the uh gun shots, what, what do you do?

off, like a s’-, uh, uh a string of CD 4351 firecrackers in a rapid, very rapid. Uh, and then suddenly uhm, s’-, some loud explosions went off there in front. It sounded as thoughif there was, if it was shooting, that the bullets or, or whatever it was would come through the wall where we were. so I guess from my own training, I just hit the floor.]]4395 I didn't, I had no idea that someone was shooting at him. What I rem’-, what I, flashingly what I saw was perhaps some police CD 4412 officers who had infiltrated had, had, was firing back at whoever was shooting in the back. And then I figured then, when I first heard it was firecrackers, when this loud explosion went off, they I saw a whole different picture. [[4436 Then when I heard the uhm, crash on the stage, I knew what it was, I knew exactly what had happened then. And we were talking about seconds. Seconds. I would say in approximately maybe ten seconds CD 4466 after hair hayur played this roos, it was over. It was quick. It was very quick.]]4486 Matter of fact, it was so quick that they ran out with the people that had panicked.That was the reason out why Luke Mann, and other brothers

cou1dn’t reach those uhm, uhm, Muslims from the Nation of Islam, that assassinated him.

LIVE ON CAMERA ROLL ONE FIFTY-TWO, BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH BENJAMIN KARIM.

that thing was that had, had uh, had set upon my shoulder like double gravity were gone. And I felt, I felt a relief for him believe it or not. It's kind of difficult for someone else to, to understand, you know what I'm saying? But I did. And I knew that no matter what they did, that it was time for him to go.]]5179 Q:---? KARIM: Well when, when I say I think it was time, he used to tell us [[5200 Malcolm used to say, everything happens on time. And there's no such thing as an accident, if you figure (opening) it out mathematically. And that even though those men were tools in the hands of greedy, CD 5233 vicious, corrupt men, they, they served a purpose, an underlying purpose that you see fulfilling itself today.] The fact that he is more alive today in a way than he was then in hearts and curiosity of people. And when I said that, I speaking in ter'-, [a Muslim never sees another Muslim as dead, you have to understand that, too. And I have never CD 5293 seen him dead, and I doubt if there are any other Muslims of that Nation nature have seen him in their mind as dead no more. We don't, we don't get that kind of thing Picture of a Muslim. When, when you say so to say it is time for him to leave, it meant that it was,

to us, it meant that Allah, God, saw fit that, that, that, that it was at that point (alarm that he would go no further, physically on this earth and, and suffering and toil and burden that he was trying to carry.]]5365

allow someone else to provoke us to fight each other. If we did that it would be between ourselves, not because of some outside provocateur that brought it about.]]5497

two Muslims, Muslims aren't deterred by CD 5846 threats, and when a, when a man is determined to carry out a (crash) mission, threatening him is not going to prevent him from doing this thing. There's no way in the world he could have backed off from doing this. This was his mission. He had to see this thing through. He had that kind of coverage. He had an unwavering belief in God.

Q: OK. You were, you were telling me that you knew that, that you know that he's, that he's going to be assassinated, and that the uh Nation has to carry this out. Why?

Q: Start again. You have to say what we're talking about.

they did not tell the masses of Muslim, uh members of the Nation of Islam what it was that Malcolm had spoken of, so then he came out and said what it was. Uh, had uhm, had uhm, had this, this uhm, uhm, had this thing of, of Mr. Mohammed and, and uh of these children, and what have you come out, came had, had the truth of it been exposed while he was alive, well even when he came out, the many of them didn't believe him because they were already programmed not to believe, but had, had that truth came out while he was CD 6151 still alive, then it would have gone further in splitting the Nation of Islam. That meant 6164 those, [[those believers who, who, who, who had become dissatisfied, or wanted to split away, who had lost confidence behind this, would have had somewhere to come to under Mlnister Malcolm. So it was, it was necessary for them to, to dispose of him by any means CD 6195 possible in order to, to hold the Nation of Islam together.]]6205 For, you know, for their own uh purposes, which was mostly greed.

Q: OK. You uhm, uh, are you, did the police contact you about the uh, the assassination?

Are you brought before the Grand Jury at that time?

have to say Benjamin opened up, but no one, no one called me, neither the uh defense nor the prosecution.

Q: You could have, you would have been able to identify uh Norman and uh, uh Thomas.

Q: Tell me what I'm saying. They don't know, they don't hear my question.

would have gladly under those circumstances at that time, perhaps killed him, or attempted to kill him, there was not doubt about that. But they were not the popel people involved. They were innocent.

Q: You, you say that because you would recognize them being on the stage like that, you would have seen them in the audience if you'd scanned the audience.

Q: Tell me what would you recognized?

recognize them. They were from Newark. I knew a lot of Muslims from Newark, but I didn't, I didn't, I don't, I didn't know all of them, but I knew they were Muslims, and it was nothing strange because Minister Malcolm said, "If any Muslims come, let them in." And that's what we did.]]6572 But Norman and Johnson would not have even attempted to come in there.

Q: OK. I'm going to take you back to those questions earlier. When you talked about the letter that came that Malcolm had written, you talked about his, his feelings about uhm white people, blue-eyed, blond haired people who were Muslim. Did this change his attitudes about white people in America? Was it, was, was his recognition of, of, of white Muslims, did that affect how he saw white people in America?

That, not that, just Muslims, but the fact, what difference did it make, all whites were devils, but then he, he finds that that wasn't true. He find that there whites, not just a couple of, that, that, you know, that he met on the pilgrimage.There were probably thousands of, of Caucasians from Europe that, that have been Muslims for a thousand years. See? So I think what it did, it sort of opened his mind up to, to, CD 6718 to, to whites, in general. That all white people are not racist in the sense that, that we have been led to believe by the, by the activities and actions and the historical facts that we have been confronted with here in this country. ]]6747

Q: If you were to think... out.

and, and if you're going, if I could just put CD 6783 him in one small synopsis. 6787[ I see him as a man who hated, with a passion, ignorance. That's right. who hated ignorance with a passion. And if he was a fanatic about anything, he was a fanatic about learning, about knowledge, for the sake of knowledge. I see him as a scholar.]]6839

Q: What has, what has, what has he left us in this, there's things, you, you already talk about what he's left us.

Q: If, it he stood for, for le'-, he stood for, you said he stood for, if he stood for one thing or, or there was one thing that

would be kind of undying love for or commitment to, what would that be?

Q: OK. Thank you.