Speed.

Mark it.

Champions. Sound roll four. Camera roll five. Sound eight.

Wait a minute Clayton.

Hold it Benny I hear—

Sound nine.

Could we begin by having you talk about where when and, perhaps, how you grew up?

Well, I grew up in the south, in Richmond, Virginia, which is the capital of the Confederacy. And, drives down Monument Avenue in Richmond don't let you forget it. In a segregated school system. I did well in school. Happened to be in the right place at the right time for my athletic career, having been seen at age ten by Dr. R.W. Johnson who was my first real teacher, after I was taught the rudaments of the game by a student at Virginia Union, a nearby school which was across the street frome where I lived in Richmond. And, then I spent my senior year at Sumner high school in St. Louis, a rather famous high school in the midwest, one of the first all black high schools that made a name for itself in the early part of the century. And then, four years at UCLA, two years in the army as an officer, and then I started on a professional athletic career in 1969 when I was honorably discharged from the army. [laughs] [Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

I went to Sumner because Richmond, Virginia did not have any indoor tennis facilities, and if it did, in that time, I probably wouldn't have been able to use them anyway. And so, Dr. Johnson had a friend of his, Richard Hudlin, who was the first black tennis team captain at the University of Chicago tennis team in 1926, I think it was. And, he was a tennis nut and very well connected in the tennis circles in St. Louis, and he agreed to have me live at his house, which I did while I finished my senior year of high school. And it was there, when I one the National Junior Indoor title, that the UCLA coach called and asked if I wanted to come to school there. [Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

What do you think Dr. Johnson saw in you as a youngster that, did he single you out from other kids—

Well at age ten I don't think Dr. Johnson saw anything in particular other than he, there were two things going on in his mind. One, was the humiliation he felt two years before, when he had two of his kids entered in the national interscholastics in Charlottesville, which was just about seventy miles from Richmond, and they both lost six-love, six-love in the first round. And two, I was recommended by that Virginia Union University student who taught me, Ron Charity, as being someone who Charity thought could do well. Dr. Johnson had this all black junior tennis development program, which is part of the American Tennis Association, although he ran it himself. And, he just decided to take a chance on me. And my father said yes, so that's the way it got started.

I believe I read that your father worked at the playground—

Yes—

—near your home where you were—

My father was the caretaker of this playground, Brookfield in Richmond, Virginia, which was the largest black playground in the city.

During the recent Olympics in Los Angeles, where you worked as a commentator, many people in America I think were quite surprised to discover your facility with a rifle on the skeet shooting course. You pointed out that you'd grown up hunting in Virginia. Was that an important activity, when you were young?

Hunting with my father was an important activity in the south, in the sense that it's sort of one of the rights of passage in a way. It's like sort of like getting your driver's license, or kissing a girl for the first time, or getting your hunting license, to be able to go out with other adult males was a big, big deal among those families who hunted, so to speak. And so, I had a great deal of experience with a shotgun. And so, being able to shoot the clay pigeon out of the sky was no, no big deal for me [laughs].

Arthur, your personal style strikes me as being definitively American and probably very much rooted in the way you were raised, but you claimed a few years ago that you considered yourself an internationalist. I'm asking, in a somewhat convoluted way, who is Arthur Ashe?

Eddie can we hear it?

Cut.

Rolling.

Champions. Sound roll 4. Camera Roll 6. Sound 10.

He's got his, hey get your foot. It's been there. Okay, thank you. You can go, place.

Arthur let's talk specifically about tennis and your tennis career. A great deal has changed in the atmosphere that surrounds tennis in over past fifteen, past twenty years. Has very much changed in the actual game itself? There are equipment changes obviously. Rackets are different, but is the game any different than it was when you entered it?

I think the game is quite different than it was when I started in a serious, sustained way. There is much more emphasis on the participation of women. The mid and oversize rackets have made the sport faster. The sport is on T.V. and there's a lot more money in it, so obviously the morals, the morality of the sport has changed [laughs]. And, the people who are playing today, buy and large, are better athletes than were the players twenty years ago.

Who are the game's most impressive champions, in your view, and what in their styles of play do you think enabled them to compete so effectively?

Well in my generation, at the top of the list I would put Billie Jean King. If I had to have one person play a match and my life depended on it, I'd have, I'd have Billie Jean King play it for me. She, she, well subject to all the foibles that any professional athlete was subject to, but, she seemed to be able to control them better than, than anybody I'd ever seen, I'd ever seen. I think it came up, for instance, in the match with Bobby Riggs, even though it was a, strictly a, an unnatural, artificial encounter. Margaret Smith, who holds the greatest record of numbers, numbers of majors singles and doubles titles won, succumb to the pressure of playing with Bobby Riggs. But Billie Jean grabbed it by the horn in front of the largest crowd ever to witness a tennis match, and soundly beat Bobby Riggs, which proved nothing, but the pressure was enormous in that match, and I've seen her also demonstrate that in tight situations like the finals of Wimbledon. Once, when she was down 3-love in the third to Chris Evert Lloyd, came back and won the match.

Let's talk about some of the people you've played, particularily people you felt had something especially impressive in the way they approached the game and their mechanics perhaps. [unintelligable] championship level play.

Since there is more than one style of play I could mention players from each style who impressed me. Ken Rosewall, being one, very straighforward, nothing fancy, no loops, top spin. He was very impressive, because the ball always came back [laughs] and I didn't like that. Rod Laver was very impressive, of the super aggressive, all or nothing, Gottfried [?] style; left handed, very talented, very quick. When he got behind he would hit the ball harder, which is exactly the opposite of most people. Jimmy Connors was impressive. Jimmy Connors is your blue-collar hero. He's your working man's champion. He had the ability to, from the baseline, go for it, put the ball within a foot or so of either the sidelines or the baseline more consistently than anybody I've ever seen. Pancho Gonzalez was impressive. He spent some time with me, so I was a little in awe of him, at first. He was my hero as a kid because he was Mexican-American, wasn't completely white, and very good; snarled a bit. There's some defiance of authority which we all, in the south at least, liked, when somebody like that would stick it to those guys in [laughs], in authority. Those are some of the people that I identified with. I had respect for their games and their approaches to tennis.

In your recollection of the game, is there a moment that stands out as more memorable than any of the others, or a few moments that you particularily like to recall or cannot avoid recalling, perhaps?

Well there was one momet I recall, literally right in back of me where we sit right now, happened a match between Whitney Reed and the late Rafael Osuna. They had a very long five set match here on the grass. It was grass then. But it was well fought. The crowd loved it. But they were deadly and earnest—

Ahhhh.

Sorry, okay.

Oh boy.

Let's cut.

Slate.

Sound eleven.

[inaudible]

I remember one inter—, instance which ocurred right here on this center court at Forest Hills, involving a match between Whitney Reed who, at the time, was ranked number one in the U.S. and the late Rafael Osuna of Mexico. They had played a very see-saw battle. Osuna was a very athletic, very acrobatic player on the grass, where you could fall down and dive for balls. And, anyway the match was very thrilling. The stadium filled up to watch the end of it, because quite a bit was at stake. And, at the end of the match, which Rafael Osuna won, he literally jumped over the net into Whitney's arms, and ar—, and Whitney carried him off the stadium court here. The other match I remember, which I though had some historic destiny involved with it was when Virginia Wade at Wimbledon in 1977 won the women's singles, with the queen of England sitting in the royal box. It was almost as if this is the way it's supposed to happen. But she lost the first set to Betty Stˆve of, of the Netherlands, and that just added enough drama to make it interesting. But you sort of felt that, hey, Virginia's supposed to win today. The queen is sitting in the box, it's the twenty-fifth anniversary of her reign. It's gotta happen, and it did. [laughs]

In 1975 of course, at Wimbledon, you played, I would have to guess you feel, one of your more extraordinary matches. I think many people, however, know about the match and perhaps seen it on film or tape, don't know about the preperation that went into your match against Connors [unintelligable]. Perhaps you could talk about that.

Well the preperation before any Wimbledon singles' final starts two days before that final, because there is a day, whether you're a man or woman, there's a day between the semifinal and the final. You get a day off. And so, you can think about it for two days, and I had some, some of my friends give me advice. Nobody wanted Connors to win, I mean every [laughs], he wasn't very well liked in those days. And, in watching Jimmy play Roscoe Tanner, who was one of the hardest servers, or hardest hitters, in the game, I sort of felt that I found what I could not do, and win, and that was hit the ball as hard as Roscoe did. Roscoe never served better. He served a lot of aces, he got a lot a high percentage of his first serves in, but he lost very quickly, something like 6-4, 6-3, 6-4, something like that. And I decided that, if I had a chance in this match, then I would have to play a different way; a way witch is not that comfortable with me on a fast surface like grass. Anyway, when the match started I remember being very, very surprised during the final. The first time I looked up at the clock in the northwest, northeast corner of the court, and it was 2:41. The match started at 2:00, and I was already two sets up, 6-1, 6-1, thinking I'm not supposed to be, necessarily winning two sets in the Wimbledon final against Jimmy Connors this quickly. But, on the other hand, because I tend to be a very logical person, if I'm as good as I think I am, then I shouldn't be surprised at whatever the score turns out to be. And, again with some drama, I lost the third set, and was down 3-love in the fourth set, but still came back to win.

Could you tell us something about that advice that your, who were those friends, and what, were there some specific things they said you have to do to beat Connors?

Yes, we thought that Connors was vulnerable if he could be served wide to both sides. He's left handed, which meant that on the forehand side of the court, if I could serve him wide; and I did have one of the best serves wide to that side of the court for a person who was right handed, one of the few right handers that could do that, and I did it very well that day. Connors, all of us thinking, was vulnerable there. And also I had a very good serve wide the other side, and I happened to be serving well that day also. But, the idea was to get a lot of first serves in; not to let him get set to hit a softer second serve and knock it down your throat. As far as play from the back court I was to hit the ball with a lot of underspin, but with as little speed as possible. Down the middle to give him no angle. And that if he ever came to the net, if he ever felt tempted to do so, to try to lob the ball over his two handed backhand to that side, which I happened to do very well that day again. So, the other added element, which I had not said to too many people, but actually was very true and can be corroborated by this friend of mine who came over from New York, one of my best friends here in the city. And I said to him, just before the match, I said I had the feeling I can't lose today. It just some strange feeling, I knew the odds were, the bookies were making it six and seven to one against. But I have some, the strange feeling that I just can't lose—, [Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

—today, and sure enough I didn't.

Are we out?

Yeah.

Did we get, I didn't?

—just, missing the senter court at Wimbledon is a normal reaction for anybody. I think Joe Dimaggio may not miss spring training and all that, but I'm sure he missed, misses playing in the world series [laughs]. And, at least in the individual competition in tennis, outside say team competitions like Davis Cup, the world series is the finals of Wimbledon or the finals of the U.S. Open, the French, or the Australia. So yes, I miss playing in the finals at Wimbledon, on center court there. [Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

But the rest of tennis doesn't, there are no pangs?

Well—

[unintelligable]

After a while, after you play for a while you, you come to realize that it is a job. And there are some days when you don't want to go to the office, so to speak. But you go anyway. Those days you don't miss. But on the days when you are in a final of a tournament, especially of a tournament like Wimbledon or the U.S. Open, yes you miss that. And you miss the combat also.

You've indicated on, on a number of occasions that you feel, as a role model for black youngsters, a tennis champion is less important than a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer. Could you ellaborate on that?

I came to the realization that, in the mid-70s, that black athletes may not especially be the right role models for black kids. Although athletes, I think, across the board are looked up to by kids of every color, race, and religion. But, there's just no question in my mind that too many black children, boys in particular, spend too much time trying to be professional athletes and, with nothing to fall back on if they don't make it. So, they make these bets with themselves which nearly every single one loses. And, to that extent, I wrote that open letter to black parents that was published in the New York Times, saying you should try to keep your son's athletic aspirations in check. You, ‡ la Langston Hughes, want to have your kid, your child to dream, but let's not take the dream too far. And let's not let your child perpetuate that dream in his own mind too far. I think it's hurt us. No question in my mind, it's hurt us as a, as a people that so many of us, boys wanna be professional athletes, and they hold that dream too long.

I interviewed Frank Robinson a few years ago when he was still managing, when he was managing the Cleveland Indians actually, and he said that the percentage of black baseball players was going down—

Yes, it is.

—There are fewer black baseball players.

Correct.

Is that, in your view, a good trend? Do you think that's perhaps, in keeping with what you're saying, maybe parents are telling their youngsters, that—

I don't think the re—, I don't think the recent trend which shows a decrease in the percentage of black professional baseball players is as a result of the black community de-emphasizing professional sports. I think it's more a function of the major leagues now getting quite a few of its, or a higher percentage of its, recruits from college campuses, rather than the minor leagues. And also, the idea of spending two, three, four years in the minor leagues is less appealing to black baseball players now than it was a long time ago. All of us, I think, are caught up in the instant gratification syndrome, but I think black males even more so. They don't want to spend the time in the minor leagues, if that's what it takes, if they did not go to college, and play, play varsity baseball at some NCAA Division One school.

Recently you were quoted in _The New York Times_ saying that, in regard to people like tennis champions, John McEnroe, Jimmy Connors, they were special enough as human beings and players to be treated in an extremly spcecial way. I wonder if you'd elaborate on that kind of thing.

Yes, I think people who are of the caliber of, of a John McEnroe or Jimmy Connors, they are special. In the senese that, you cannot treat them the way you would treat somebody who was ranked number forty in the world. Although, our egalitarian ethos here would lead us to say, well you shouldn't do that, but human nature is such that if you tried to treat McEnroe or Connors like you treated, player number thirty-five, It just won't work. And so, I don't hold them accountable to all the rules as strictly in every instance as I would, say some other player whose demonstrated ability is much less. That would require, say somebody else like an Aaron Krickstein whom I have on the team. Aaron I want you to do x at a certain time, and the reason is, you don't have the record that a Connors and a McEnroe does, nor does he have the emotional maturity with age. Aaron Krickstein is sixteen, Connors was thirty-two. I let Connors and McEnroe set their own schedules, and I assume that they know what they're doing. They certainley have demonstrated that in the past, that they know what they're doing, so that's the way I operate that.

How does Arthur Ashe wish to be remembered?

Well I certainley don't want to be remembered, especially for having won Wimbledon or the U.S. Open. Which is something to be done only when one is full of vinegar, and other things, so to speak [laughs]. I don't know. I think what I really would like to be remembered for is something that I, that probably lay ahead. My atheltic accomplishments certainley may lead the list, but I hope to add to that. What I'll be ultimatley remebered for? I don't know, but I hope to be around a little bit more [laughs]. To have you think about it some more.

How would you complete a sentence that began, "to be a champion."

To be champion I think you had have to include the things like talent, perserverence, determination, preperation, scarifice, but what sperates, in my mind, champions from mere winners are people who literally wanna leave their sport better off when, than it was when they first started. That is, they would demonstrate a love for the sport. And I think that really seperates people who are champions from people who are just winners. [Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 3]

That's it.