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Preferred citation:
Interview with Shah Yusef, conducted by Blackside, Inc. on Malcolm X. Washington University Libraries, Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection.
Q: OK. OK, give me the the plan that Malcolm has for New York, among New York supporters.
Well, this is my opinion of, according to what he told me. He always wanted to go to New York. That was--
Q: I'm just gonna stop you. OK. Let me say, Malcolm always wanted to go, 'cause that way, so we know who, 'cause they don't hear my question, so--
Yeah.
Q: --obviously, then, we're talking--
Alright.
he knew he just couldn't walk in there.
'Cause he, he loved his wife, and he just wasn't gonna, he whatever we was doing, he would just give that up. So then Mr. Mohammed knew about Malcolm over there in Philadelphia. He knew about his work in Philadelphia. So he appointed him to take Sulta Mohammed's place in New York City in 1954, possibly between June and July. That's how he got to New York. Mr. Mohammed, who was absolute boss, sent him there. Appointed him.
Q: OK. And uh what did Mr. Mohammed see in Malcolm at this time. Or did he, or did he see anything special in Malcolm as a young minister?
Well, he knew that he had the spirit. He had the intelligence.
Q: (unintel) who we're talking about.
York, because he had told him that he lived
in New York and worked in New York. And he
also knew that he was the kind of man,
complexion, height, speech, and carriage, all
that has to be taken into consideration when
you select a man to send before the people.
Plus, this is the international scene. You
got to have the best in New York, your best
Q: So how, when did, when did you come to New York, and and uh, what what vision, or how did you and Malcolm, in the beginning, together talk about what you want to do to New York, once you both had gotten there?
I come to New York because Malcolm asked me to come to New York. Because he, because Malcolm was not satisfied with the Captain. He said he was a good brother, and he meant right, felt he was a believer, but
he just couldn't help him and do what he
wanted to do. And that's it.
Q: What did Malcolm wanna do in New York?
Q: OK. Let let's take it forward a time, in New York, to the uh Hinton Johnson incident. How significant was that incident in terms of ident- of becoming an identity for the Nation of Islam in New York?
That incident propelled Malcolm into- -
Q: The audience doesn't know what we're talking about, so--
You know, I forgot--
Q: It's not that incident, but tell me what we're talking about--
Q: Explain to me how the uh the Nation of Islam responds to the Johnson Hinton incident, and uh what happens that night? Gi- you were giving me kind of a real visual account of what happened that night. I was not there. The audience is not there. Help us be there and understand.
It was in 1957. Johnson Hinton, who
was a Muslim member of the Na- of the, uh
Chapel Number Seven, was on 125th Street. He
saw a incident of a man and, I would say, his
lady. The were in a argument. And it was a
small scuffle. The police came. And they
began to administer a beating on the male.
Mr. Hinton, Johnson Hinton, went over to one
of the police and said to him, 'Why are you
beating the man? Why don't you take him to
jail?' When Johnson Hinton made that
beating
now, and we're going to the 28th Precinct.'
We went in cars, and uh the other believers,
mostly men, it was men and women, but mostly
men, they marched (unintel) 26th Street, 25th
Street, we're at 116th Street, to Seventh
Avenue, down Seventh Avenue, to uh 123rd
Street, to the 28th Precinct. Naturally, we
were there. We were in the precinct.
ROLL OUT ON SOUND. ROLL IT.
CAMERA ROLL TWO-ONE-THREE. TAKE FIVE.
I'M SORRY. CAMERA ROLL TWO-ONE-THREE. TAKE FIVE. SECOND STICKS.
Q: OK, let's pick up with the uh, what this uh uh demonstration means, uh, when the Nation is marching on the police issue, what does this say to the rest, to the neighborhood, to the people on the streets?
Uh,
'Cause he was there, we knew he was hurt, and that was our demand.
Q: Now, there's a police officer's has a famous statement about uh power that one man should have over a community, and what is uh, uh, is that is that real, w-was that legit, in terms of this, uh the impression of one person having that authority, and Malcolm being that one person?
You must understand our community. One man does the talking, everybody else shuts up. When we got to Harlem Hospital, first they wouldn't let Malcolm go in. We spoke up and told them, about seven of us there, before the rest of them, the rest of the brothers arrived, and people began to gather across the street. Told him Malcolm was the minister. He must go up, if nobody else goes up. That's our brother, and we're going up. So they had no reason to stop us. They were out there trying to stop us, because this Inspector, McGowan, that's the
kind of precinct that he was running. The
28th Precinct. And he went up. In the
meantime, we were down in the street with
brothers, all of the FOI, who was walking
around in a circle.
seventh Street, he asked the people who were
gathered across the street, and he was
interest
Q: Now, how did, how did this, what is this uh incident do, in terms of the image of the Nation of Islam in the community? When the press gets hold of it, it becomes, what does it do for the Nation, or people's ideas of the Nation?
Sunday, the place was jammed. Because they found out where we were, and they were there. Made a speech, and then we left there. And we went to Sideham, because they had took Johnson from Harlem Hospital and brought him back to the cell and put him in there. And we found out about it again, and we went and demanded that they take him out and take him to hospital. Because he had a hole in his head! They had beat him so bad, until they had beat a hole in his head. And he needed a neurosurgeon. Thomas W. Matthews was one of the few black neurosurgeons in the in the country.
Q: So after, after, right after that incident, the mosque is ha- people--
Yeah. Yeah.
Q: --people from the community respond--
Yeah. Yeah. They begin to come around.
Q: Talk to me, talk to me about that. Tell me--
Well, they would come. You know,
Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays, they would
come. You know, it began to grow. You see?
And then, naturally, Malcolm, that was
spraking, he had good assistants, because he
Q: Uh, (unintel).
STOP DOWN. (UNINTEL), PLEASE.
OK. TWO-ONE-THREE, TAKE SIX.
MARK IT.
Q: Talk to me about the uh, The Hate That Hate Produced film. What were the expectations of the Nation when CBS came to you to make the film, and what did you, how would y-, what was the response of Malcolm and the Honorable Elijah Mohammed when the film was shown, when the documentary was shown on television?
in Washington, D.C., they had uh this
interview.
Q: Did Malcolm feel that getting, using the media was important to the growth of the Nation? Talk to me about how he saw that?
Be felt the use, that that--
Q: No, he, remember we're talking--
Q: How, what was the (unintel)--
--TWO-ONE-THREE.
CAMERA TWO-ONE-FOUR, TAKE SEVEN.
MARK IT.
Q: What is the, what is the response to the uh Bate That Bate Produced, within the black community, in terms of the membership of the Nation of Islam?
Well,
Q: Mr. Mohammed did not like...
He did not like it!
Q: Starting 'Mr. Mohammed did not like...'
Q: OK. So how does it, how does the the uh the black community respond to the film. What happens in the black--
The black community, uh, many of them, especially the people uh uh the aristocrats of of of of of of the Negroes, Naturally, they were critical. They went along with what the Caucasians said. Not all of them, 'cause there's many of them that work, and they were receptive, and they understood what the man's gonna do. But many
of them uh uh they said that, you know, that
Q: How fast was the Nation of Islam growing at this time, the late Fifty-, '59, early Sixties? Talk about the growth, and how people are feeling in the Nation about how fast it's growing.
Yeah. Uh, the followers, they were
happy. And that's the way it was ruined
wanna make it a thousand. And that's what we
did. And we had the people of the age that
would go out and do it.
Q: Now, bringing the young uh younger people into the Nation--
Yeah?
Q: Talk ab- uh, whose idea or strategies was it to start going after a younger uh uh group of uh followers?
Well, I would say that Malcolm, uh, he was the one that worked with those type of people. And that's what he worked with. That's when we come in conflict. In in Boston, in in Philadelphia, and New York. And it was successful. Plus, people saw young people, and that attracted them. And
then, if young people, uh uh uh are doing
something, (unintel) people older than them,
they would accept and come. So that's how it
happened. We actually would go out and get
the people. there be talk
Then you had to set up a system to hold them.
We had orientation class. When I first come
to the community, you just, er you had to
write a letter first. Took me a year. Then
after you write, after you wrote the letter,
then you uh were accepted, you know, as a
Muslim, and you could come to the FOI or N
in orientation, which was, at that time, six weeks.
Q: What, how did Malcolm become uh more than
just the minister of New York? Bow did he
become uh a spokesperson, a uh a larger
figure than maybe other ministers who were
serving other cities?
Naturally, you get on the radio, more people
know you. You get more, you get more
opportunities to go to colleges, 'cause
that's the (unintel), the colleges would be
writing, asking him to come. Mr. Mohammed
give him permission to go to Yale and Harvard
and Cornell and and what have you. Because I
went with him. Mr. Mohammed give it to him.
Q: How did, how would, how were other ministers handling this popularity of Malcolm's?
They they they weren't handling right, because some of them felt--
Q: What are we talking about--
had
Q: What was Malcolm's response to that?
to help, but we're here, and the only one you
wanna listen to is Mr. Mohammed. Bypass us.
Q: Did did reprimands like that change Malcolm's--
Yes! He began to move from--
Q: See, I don't know who you're--
(unintel).
Q: You gotta say, no, (unintel) 'reprimands like that...'
Q: Do you think that um uh, well, describe Malcolm to me at this time. What's he like at this time, by the time, and you know, we're talking early Sixties. He's now, you know, a spokesperson. He is--
Yeah.
Q: --minister, he's head of the New York mosque.
Yeah.
Q: Describe Malcolm to me at this point in time.
He's the biggest man in, one of the biggest men in the communities.
Q: Starting wit--
marines, and they would take papers overseas and leave 'em.
ROLL OUT.
ONE-TWO, ONE-FOUR.
ROLL OUT TWO-ONE-FOUR.
TWO-ONE-FIVE, TAKE EIGHT.
MARK IT.
Q: --Malcolm's popularity. And uh what I'm interested in, what I want to get a sense of is, around this time, also, uh uh the Honorable Elijah Mohammed is beginning to, is is is somewhat ill.
Yeah.
Q: How does that complicate the uh position, say, to Malcolm's popularity (unintel), and the feelings within the organization around uh the Honorable Elijah Mohammed (unintel) his um, his own mortality?
Mmm-hmm.
sick; he had uh uh bronchitis. Asthmatic
bronchitis. So he couldn't speak like he
Q: Was there concern within uh the organization itself that Mis- uh, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed could die?
Yes.
Q: And what did that mean--
Yes. He was spooky, you know?
'Cause we got people who're spooky
everywhere, and it was spooky.
Q: So what was the, wha- how how s-serious was the concern around uh a successor to Elijah Mohammed, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed?
Q: Now, the media did that a lot.
Yes.
Q: How did Malcolm respond? How was that, how did he respond to the media--
Well...
Q: --putting him out there as this person who'd come--
They they they got, that got him in trouble, is because he had an opportunity to address it. Malcolm had a opportunity to to address it. But most of the time, he wouldn't address it.
Q: We need to really be clear, because when you say 'it', we don't know what we're talking about. The media tried to put Malcolm up as the leader--
Yes...
Q: --which Malcolm tried to address. Can you start again?
Yes. Malcolm did
Q: Do you feel that Malcolm not saying anything in his own, in his own way let it continue on?
Yes! Yes. Yes.
Q: They don't hear my questions. So what are you saying 'yes' to?
Yes, that was Malcolm's response. I felt that way. I'm speaking to you, that's the way I felt.
Q: OK, tell me what you felt, because they don't hear--
I felt that he didn't respond right. You know? He would answer the question, but he wouldn't answer it right. And I felt he had a reason for doing it. And others felt the same way.
Q: And the reason was?
And the reason was is that he realized that he was uh in a different position, then, or now, than he was when he first started. And he was. He was internationally known.
Q: Do you think that Malcolm, in his own mind, uh uh felt that he could've been the the um, he could have succeeded and become the leader of Nation of Islam?
Yeah. Yeah. But wasn't that many people gonna follow him, though. Not in the Nation. Because they could see.
Q: OK. Uh...alright. Uh...was Malc- was Malcolm ever reprimanded for, or talked to about, the press talking to him about his own, about being successful? And how did Malcolm respond?
Well, as I told you, they called him into question, because he was doing things that uh, the officials, or the National officials, felt that he shouldn't be doing it. And his response was that 'Well, I'm not guilty of that. And whatever you feel that you feel that way, but I don't feel that way. And I'm just gonna leave you to Allah.'
Q: So, do you think that Malcolm, was Malcolm e-, was Malcolm a person that could use, understand how to use the media for his own end?
Oh, yes. He understood that. Yes, definitely.
Q: OK, talk to me about how, give me an example.
Well, you know, he he he wasn't, he he he wasn't what you'd call a genius, bu~ knew how to move 'em around. He knew how to get into public. We used to write letters, you know, uh uh speaking about, he'd go and he'd make a speech or something, on the radio. We used to write letters, have a letter-writing class, write to him. Writing in our slave-names, telling the people how good he was, and and and uh, how they should have him back and everything. All that was orchestrated.
Q: Uh, so in in uh, in '62, there's there's these this incident in L.A., on on the mosque in L.A....
Yeah.
Q: Uh, what is the response, what is Malcolm's feelings about that? How, a-and and what is the Nation of Islam's feeling about it? What is the response that, are
they in sync in terms of what the response should be to that incident?
Malcolm's response was that he wanted something to do about it.
Q: OK, talk to me about Malcolm's response to the L.A.--
Well, they, Malcolm's response to the
That didn't, that didn't, that hurt. That that didn't uh make us feel good. But we are a community. We're a nation. And we just can't respond uh uh uh uh uh uh uh to a point of whereas uh we become a mob. He don't think. He had to think. And this is what Mr. Mohammed was telling Malcolm. Because he asked him. And he didn't like it.
Q: Um, did did uh did you and Malcolm talk about this?
I'M SORRY--
Yeah.
--SOUND ROLL, SO, I HAVE LESS THAN A MINUTE TO...
UM, A HUNDRED FEET.
IF WE STOP NOW, AND THE SOUND ROLL GOING TO ONE-OH-FIVE.
OK. ROLL SOUND, PLEASE.
ROLLING AND SPEED.
MARK IT, PLEASE.
ROLL TWO-FIFTEEN, SOUND ROLL FIVE, TAKE NINE.
MARK IT.
Q: OK. Bow did Malcolm respond to the press when they uh would uh point to him as the successor of Elij- of the Honorable Elijah Mohammed? Or as the leader of the Nation?
Q: What did his lack of comment, or the ambiguity that he created around that comment, do in terms of of his own position within the Nation of Islam, but at the same time, perception of him as as as a leader?
some vengeance(?) by the press. Mr. Mohammed
Q: Did Malcolm ever change?
Well, I don't think he did. 'Cause
he was popular. He might've tried, I don't
know. But as far as I'm concerned, I didn't
see any change. Because the die had been
cast. He was out there.
Q: OK.
ROLL OUT, ONE-TWO, ONE-FIVE.
OK, ROLL SOUND.
I'M SORRY. YES? ROLL SOUND.
TWO-ONE-SIX, TAKE TEN. SOUND ONE-OH-FIVE.
MARK IT.
Q: Talk to me about the popularity of being in the media, and what what problems it presented for Malcolm.
Well, you know. You know how
popularity is. It's a false thing, and it's
short-lived. And then it's spurs(?)
Q: But it seemed, it seemed during this time that uh, more or less, the Nation was going well, though. Membership was up, its temples, it was opening new temples, uh, that although there was, at times, this maybe even friction around what uh Malcolm shouldn't do or should do, or even with (unintel). It
appeared it was was going well. Uh, uh talk to me about say, the uh, you know, the mid- sixties, '63, '62. What is the Nation like at this point? And how is Malcolm fitting into that?
Q: This is, this is, give me a sense of time. This is around when, and--
Was the late Sixties.
Q: Eh, what is, what is Malcolm talking about at that time? That's--
Nationalistic. Nationalistic. And I'm sure you, I'm sure people understand what Nationalistic uh conversations are.
Q: There's the uh, there's there's the civil rights movement going on.
Yeah.
Q: There is a move- is Malcolm--
He was, he was, he was, he wasn't for that. He liked the crowds, but he he wasn't, he wasn't talking uh in favor of that.
Q: OK. Is Malcolm--
He didn't feel that would work.
Q: Is Malcolm interested in moving the Nation closing toward, into a a more an
active, a public kind of activist position, and is that uh become a problem?
Q: Uh, d-does he eh, talking about in that specific moment, incident, when um the Birmingham incident happens in in uh, in in Birmingham, Alabama. Um, how does Malcolm respond, and what does he expect the Nation to do around something like that?
I don't know what he expected them, I don't know what Malcolm expected the Nation to do. Uh, I can say, you know, about his comments. He didn't like it, you know? And
he was very furious about those
Q: OK. Uh, let's cut (unintel).
STOP.
(UNINTEL) ON-SITE.
[UNINTEL]
OK.
UH, THIS IS TEN-ELEVEN.
ELEVEN.
OK.
OK.
OK, POINT TO IT AND CALL IT ELEVEN.
OK, THIS IS ELEVEN.
OK.
Q: What was the, what was the um the atmosphere and the tone of that (unintel) with uh, when, uh, when you and Elijah, and the Honorable Elijah (unintel), and and uh (unintel)?
Q: It it um, everything seemed to be going well in the Nation. I mean, the you know, um from, what what started to go uh wrong with the relationship with Malcolm and the Nation of Islam? In your own opinion.
Q: So do you feel that that uh creating a tension or a rift between, say, uh Malcolm X and Elijah Mohammed was an atte-, could be, could've been an attempt to destabilize the organization?
Well, uh uh uh, creating the rifts when you have unity is one thing. But that wasn't what happened. That wasn't the reason. If you're, if we're speaking about why Malcolm was dismissed. If this is what the public wants to know about Malcolm and Elijah Mohammed, then I will, will uh respond to that.
Q: Why is Malcolm dismissed?
His response to me, 'Did you tell them I was
teaching?' I said, 'I told 'em that you were
teaching. Their response,' I told him,
'their response to me was, is that it's eight
o'clock. We start at eight o'clock, not a
minute before, not a minute after. So we
already know that you're teaching. We still
wanna talk to you. A message from my
father.' He reluctantly come down, and he
told me to get on the other end of the phone,
which I did. He said, 'Brother Minister
Malcolm, my father told me to tell you, and
are sorry about the death of our President.'
[MISC]
[UNINTEL] TWO-ONE-SIX.
OH, GOD.
TWO-ONE-SEVEN, TAKE TWELVE.
MARK IT.
Q: So what is, what what is Malcolm's response to what (unintel)?
time come, he could not respond. And this is where his problems started at.
Q: So uh...talk about that when when he does make a statement. Did you feel that he wa- that this was gonna happen anyway? He was gonna speak out, speak his own mind?
Oh, I I couldn't say that I felt that
he was going to do that. I though he was
more intelligent than that. But evidently,
he had made up his mind, you know, what he
was going to do. Because he had different
things that he knew that were happening in
the community or in the Nation, so he thought
that maybe it was time for him to say or do
what he felt that he was gonna do. You know?
home,' he said. I said 'Include the press.'
Be told me, he said, 'Well, I don't think, I
don't think that meant the press.' I said,
'Well, he said Caucasians, and that's it.
You know?' I said, 'However, what do you
want me to do?' Be said, 'Well, I think you
should get the press.' So I went, sent a
brother to investigate and to get the press.
Brought 'em back in, and New York time,
'course all of them were there. They he
spoke. Made a good speech after he spoke.
said, 'Well,' he said, 'I know I'm gonna get
in trouble for this, but as far as I'm
concerned, it's a case of the chickens coming
home to roost.' Naturally, John Ali, the
National Secretary, was there. And that's
how Mr. Mohammed got the news so fast.
anything. He waited 'til the ninety days was
up. Then he called him out. When he come
out there, to find out what the decision was,
and to get back, and remember, he wanted to
get back, now. He told him, said, 'I can't
do that.' Said, 'You, you haven't obeyed.'
Said, 'You've been speaking, and I have
proof. So, you know, it continues.' You
see? 'So you have to go away again.' So
after that, and that's when Malcolm made an
Q: Was- was was--
END OF SIDE A TAPE 2 OF 3
Q: Did you think that Malcolm would be, when he was silenced the first time, do you think that that he'd come back at that--
Yes, I thought so. Because Mr.
Mohammed, you know, he, he'd come to the
mosque, but he just don't say anything. In
fact, he run the businesses and everything.
He asked if I would go get the books, 'cause
he wasn't, you know, throwed out, like a lot
of people say, see? If they say that, they
don't, uh they're liars, and and and if
especially they don't know. 'Cause they
weren't even around. Mr. Mohammed told me, he
Q: Um, when um, when Malcolm splits from the uh Nation of Islam, what is the, how, what impact does that have on on the, on the New York temple?
When he left, all those, there was about fifty of 'em, and all those that we
found that that uh that was there, 'cause you know, you always leave some back, you know, or answer them whatever. Send them out. Every time we would find somebody, we'd send 'em out. You wouldn't see any of 'em going to their meetings. We'd send 'em out. Men and women. That was the response.
Q: So, at that point, there is no association. But how does, how does it, how does the, how does it work when a person is is uh leaves the Nation and separate th--
--no social activity or anything. They just don't get involved with it.
Q: OK. Explain that, because people who don't know the Nation don't know how that works.
But we are uh asked to give the greetings as Muslims. That's all we would do, as I said. But with them, I mean, you know, wouldn't say nothing to them. Nothing to talk about. Because they've made their decision. And we went on with our work.
Q: How did um, things began to, begin to somewhat uh uh, I think the correct word is escalate, but how did, how did it move to, what happened around the house, in terms of getting it back, and and things like that?
Oh, well,
[UNINTEL]
ROLL NOW.
ROLL DOWN IN TWO-ONE-SEVEN.
OK, ROLL SOUND PLEASE.
TWO-ONE-EIGHT, THIRTEEN.
Q: So, uh explain to me the impact of Malcolm's split with the uh Nation of Islam on members within the Nation.
The impact of Malcolm leaving, or
being sent away from the Nation of Islam, it
meant we started growing more. Place, be,
place be, place continue to be filled. In
fact, we added on uh two more uh uh uh uh
Q: So there was--
And that was the impact.
Q: So within the, within the temple itself, Temple Number Seven, was there--
Yeah.
Q: --was there an impact in in the Temple Number Seven?
Oh, I mean, naturally, they, he left, meaning Malcolm, but it didn't s-, it didn't stop our growth. No. They thought, I mean, it was thought that it would stop our growth, but it did not. We grow larger.
Q: Uh, just so we get this in...
Yes.
Q: ...talk to me about how, how did the the Nation of Islam, the Muslims, begin to be called Black Muslims?
Malcolm used to say that the largest group of black Muslims in the Western Hemisphere, you know, are right here in America. Now, this is how, see, Abe Lincoln got the phrase, Eleanor Roosevelt, Hubert Humphrey and all of them. Well, naturally, when they didn't name you, stop, stop
calling, when I come in the community, it was
Q: At that time, did it make you (unintel), did it, was it was there something that bothered you back then, in terms of the name?
Yes. Yes. Because we realized the
believers, the Muslims, realized that that uh
uh was th- was not a tag they wished to have
on us. That's the way it was put to him.
And it just stuck. It wouldn't change. The
Black Muslim. Then that means that, you
know, you you you you you you you you become
racist, then. Because in Islam, ain't no
their hair natural. And don't even talk
about no long dress. But all that changed.
Because of our effort. Just not one person;
our effort. They was eating pork. Now you
don't even hear any 'bout pork anymore. Very
seldom. And morals began to be better. That
didn't mean that it was one hundred percent,
but it was better. And that was an
accomplishment.
Q: Talk to me about uh the uh, we were talking before about the house trial and and acquiring, getting the house back.
Yes.
Q: Why why didn't Malcolm just give it up? Why why fight for it?
Ego, brother. Ego.
you got the deeds and what have you, and you
present that, that's it.
Q: And and Malcolm, Malcolm's reason for fighting it is basically, you feel that basically was ego?
Yes! Yes. He and he felt, also--
Q: Tell me, tell me Malcolm--
Malcolm felt that he was due that.
he'd done. And they still respect him. But
we don't respect a man that tell you to do
something. Just like he was accusing his
leader, of doing something that he wasn't
supposed to do. Be was guilty of the same
thing. But only, look, the difference was
id that he come out with a moral situation.
And that shoulda been discussed with them.
WE HAVE TO CHANGE TAPES, SO...
[MULTIPLE VOICES]
NEW SOUND ROLL ONE-OH-SIX, TAKE FOURTEEN.
MARK IT.
Q: Explain to me how uh Malcolm begins to uh talk about the children of Elijah Mohammed, and what the Honorable Elijah Mohammed then does, and how he rebuffs Malcolm.
They wouldn't let me in it. Or they told me
to stay outside. So that's what I did. The
next thing was that Malcolm began to speak to
the different ministers up and down the East
Coast, especially the larger places. And he
told them about this. And naturally, Mr.
Mohammed heard about it and called him out
and confronted him.
CUT CUT.
NO, DON'T CUT.
NO, NO, NO.
[MULTIPLE VOICES]
DON'T DON'T DO IT THAT WAY. (UNINTEL) TOWARDS THE END.
OK. I WAS TRYING TO SEE--
I THINK I GOT IT. JUST MAKE SURE (UNINTEL) LIKE THIS, OR...
[MUMBLING]
[MULTIPLE VOICES, MUMBLING]
OK. THIS IS TAKE FIFTEEN.
MARK IT.
Q: What, uh, what were, what was Malcolm's intentions with this uh information?
Well, I don't know what his intention
was. All I I can know what Malcolm's actions
were. His actions were that he come and he
spoke to me about the situation. 'Cause I
didn't know. He had asked me one time, but
he asked me in a way that uh uh, you know,
caused me not to be inquisitive. He said,
'Have you heard anything about the messings
with the secretaries?' I told him, 'No, I
ain't heard nothin' of no messin' with the
secret-.' And that's all it was to it. I
didn't uh uh uh I didn't say any more.
told me that uh, you know, you can have, you know, two or three wives or sisters, or what have you. Told him, 'I'm not interested in that.' I said--
[UNINTEL]
THAT'S A ROLL OUT.
LAST ROLL?
OK. LAST ROLL.
TAKE SIXTEEN, TWO-ONE-NINE.
MARK IT.
Q: With the violence that's going on over the last year, that that is important, what is going on between (unintel) and how is Malcolm being seen at this time?
Well, naturally,
Next thing we knew, we was over at the
restaurant, Malcolm's followers come over
there with guns. I mean, this was really the
shock to us. We never carried any guns.
And if they were carrying some, we didn't
know anything about it.
Q:
I don't know! All we know, it just got on fire.
Q: Does Malcolm know who bombed his house?
I don't know. He never said. And if he did, you know, he should shoulda brought 'em to justice.
Q: Uh, d'you is Malcolm, I mean, is his life really in danger at this time?
Maybe it was! He said it was. He
said it was.
Q: Do you feel now that that that, do you
feel that there was a cli- a climate within
the Nation itself, that that his life was in
danger?
Well, as you know,
and what he represents. That's what the
people don't understand.
Q: Did you, did you personally feel that that that uh that this could ultimately lead to what it did lead to?
Well, I didn't know what it was going to lead to, but I knew that it was a collision course that was being followed.
Q:
Well, maybe he did! It's because, as
he says, he he trained 'em. So he knew what
they were capable of.
(UNINTEL) UH, THAT'S CUT.
CUT.
STOP (UNINTEL).
SEVENTEEN.
MARK IT.
Q: Describe to me the relationship between Malcolm, Malcolm's relationship with Elijah Mohammed, his feelings for him.
Right.
him publicly, and after he did not uh
respond, and uh uh Mr. Mohammed sent him back
again. Sent him out. Then Malcolm decided
he would form the MMI. And that's the way it
happened. And that's the way it was.
Q: So you feel that Malcolm, basically, at a certain point decided that he was gonna get back, and he was, he was in struggle with--
Q: How did you respond when you, when you heard that Malcolm had been assassinated?
Criticizing.
Q: I said, how did you respond when you heard that Malcolm had been assassinated?
Ass-assinated?
Q: Or killed.
Or killed.
Q: (unintel). Do you feel that Malcolm talked violence?
Yes. You must un erstand that that
Mr. Mohammed, everything Mr. Mohammed,
everything he said, Mr. Mohammed didn't tell
him to say that. Mr. Mohammed didn't tell
him about the planes falling out of the sky.
he didn't say that. There's many things.
[UNINTEL]
SEVEN.
ALRIGHT.
TAKE EIGHTEEN.
[UNINTEL]
MARK IT.
EIGHTEEN.
Q: How do you feel about Malcolm's, in in many senses, legacy; how he's lived on, how he's, in some senses, lived large- lived larger than (unintel)?
Uh, I feel that this, this happens.
Because it's popularity.
Q: Tell me--
And so I feel that the powers that be
want to make a hero out of a dead man. And
you can't follow a dead man. You gotta
follow a live man.
Q: What's, what were, what were his strengths, what were his weaknesses?
ability. His strengths was uh uh uh his uh
ability to uh select people that could help
him. That was his strengths. His weaknesses
was that he a criminal mind, and that he was
intoxicated with the cameras and microphones.
And that he could, he could, he he could give
out punishment, or he could give out
reprimand, or or or or he could um uh uh
reprimand someone, but he couldn't take it
Where all people come. (unintel), uh
uh uh or anybody who was somebody (unintel),
NINETEEN.
--other people on the planet. I mean, black people.
Q: Talk about his vision. Do you, when you guys had been here, what is his vision? Why New York? And what do you think would happen there?
You ready?
If we, meaning the Muslims, under the
leadership of Elijah Mohammed and following
Malcolm in New York, and others, then we can
accomplish that. But we gotta start in Nw
York. As Marcus Garvey come here, and all,
and the rest of them. This is where they
started. 'Cause these, the people in New
York are unique people. Black people. They
think different than any people over the
LET's UH GO THROUGH ROOM TONE?
YEAH, LET'S GO THROUGH ROOM TONE.
OK.