Q: Do you remember any - any specific kinds of incidents prior to the mosque

incident; or anything t1?-at m,ight have happened that would illU$trate that hostility or that relat;Jonshipthat the police department - de~artment had with the black community?

Q: How about the, the black community and the Nation of Islam? What was the general attitude towards the Nation of Islam.

within the black community? This was the first time they saw the, ah, them on the streets, on papers, ah, talking, the talk that they did; how did the black community respond to that?

they hoped for assimilation. Ah, whereas the teachings of the Muslims, at that DC 0368 time, was a teaching of separatism, and a, ah, an understanding that there was not going to be assimilation, and there is no assimilation, even now, ah.]]0389

Q: Now, take me back to that time and - and explain to me who you - what you - where you were at, at that time; who were you and - and your own memory of r ecognizing and understanding who the Nation of Islam was at that time, and, ah, and help me to know that we're in Los Angeles, that you're, ah, an attorney in Los Angeles.

Q: Your own personal perception of them as a young person.

in civil Rights uh activities. I was on DC 0452 the Legal Regress Committee of NAACP, ah, at that time; and I was -- I don't know whether I was a President of a Black Bar. There wasn't a Black Bar, but there was a Black Law Club called the Langston Law Club; uh but I was active in the Langston Law Club; and as such we did a lot of pro bono work for individuals and groups that DC 0495 got involved in civil rights problems. There was not that much contact between the Muslims and the uh black bar because it was not perceived that the Muslims' problems with the uh police department was a civil rights problem. That didn't come about until later.

Q: Okay. When you first, ahm - ah, as - as a young lawyer working with the NAACP and taking on civil rights cases, what was your first when you - your first impression of the Nation when you first learned of them, when you first encountered them; ahm, were - ahm ahm, did you buy their papers. Talk to me about

that as - in your first opinions, remembering back then.

there wasn't uh much that went on that one didn't know in the office.

Q: so describe for me when, ahm - ahm, this incident took place, ahm - how you heard about it and what general impact it had on --- once it - it- it happened in, ahm, you know, the black community. What was it - the first response to it?

Q: start again, tell me what we're talking about because when you say, "I first heard about it" -- we don't know what we're talking about.

the Muslims as a result of that incident at the Mosque. Uh, [[0806 I do recall that we then met with, ah, Malcolm, and Malcolm had on a pa~Earl Brody, trial lawyer, Loren Miller, constitutional law; so he had done some research, ah, concerning b l ack lawyers in the city before he met with us. He met with Brody independent of meeting with us,]]0847 and then he brought the two offices together, Brody's office and our office.

Q: Talk to me about your first impression of Malcolm, when you first met him and you had your first meeting. What was his first impression and what do you remember most about that meeting other than his having paper, ahm, having a clear idea of how he wanted to separate the duties?

concerned, and I have no idea what he had done as far as the Muslims were concerned in Los Angeles, if anything. The Los Angeles Mosque was a small membership Mosque at that time, and when I say small I don't know the exact number, but there weren't a lot of Muslims at that time. Ah ... Malcolm appeared to be, ah, thorough as far as interviewing us, ah - ah to represent the uh Muslims who were charged DC 0963 with the crime, with 'a' crime. When I say 'the' crime, there was no crime, but, ah, ah, with creating the incident. So, my impression was that he was a leader of an organization that was attempting to hire some lawyers to represent his fellow uh members. That was the first impression DC 1000 we had, other than knowing that he was a out national figure at that time of some, ah, substance.

MARK. TWO.

Q: Okay what I want to do is -- there are a couple of personalities in all this. Ahm, describe ah - ah Chief Parker. What was he like, what was and how was he perceived within the a - the a black community and possibly among those who might have been in the Nation of Islam?

Q: I'm sorry could you start again?

Q: 'Cause you were clearing your throat.

can't really know whether those were before the Mosque uh incident or after the Mosque incident. One was when they arrested a man for cheering, when Chief Parker died; uh and the police arrested him, and the pretext was because his name was West and they looked and saw that there was a warrant out for a man named West. He didn't fit the description or DC 1296 anything, but that was the pretext under which they took him to jail. And the reason they arrested him was cause he said he was happy that Parker died. Ahm - but I can't remember whether that was before the Mosque incident or not.

Q: Uh there are other players I'm interested in -- ahm, Malcolm shows up on the scene just afterwards. Uhm how's the press responding? How is he perceived in a -- and even in - within the black community when once he comes on the scene, he is this media figure that the people know about. He has some level of notoriety and legend even already in terms

of his own presence. Talk about that, him, him arriving on the scene and what does that do to the scene?

Q: Tell me who you're talking about, Malcolm ...

they were. [[1460 He had us go to Arizona to meet with Elijah Mohammed in order to have a Elijah Mohammed determine whether we would represent the, ah, Muslims. He also, when we were in Arizona, after Elijah Mohammed agreed to have us represent the Muslims, uh Elijah Mohammed asked us would we accept payment in three payments, and told us the reason was so that he could raise money in different parts of the country;]]1524 and we had no DC 1527 problem with that; and they paid right on - right on the moment. There was no - not a one day late as far as the fee was uh concerned. So that meant that this incident was going to be utilized as far as fund raising and as far as uh Mosque recruitment and so forth throughout the country; and I know it was done that way.]]1573

Q: Talk to me about that uh, that uh meeting with Elijah Mohammed. Talk, ah, tell me about the kinds of things that you discussed, Malcolm's uh role in all that, what was he like in the presence of Elijah

Mohammed, and what you, ahm, how you perceived Elijah Mohammed as their, as a person and a leader.

emphasized that he wanted the Muslims to be law abiding, not to be cowardly and not to take low but to - and - and to stand up for their rights, but be law abiding. We assured him that as far as we could understand that they were within their legal rights, to quote him. And after we told him that, we were hired. Malcolm was standing up away from the table off to the side. He really didn't take any part in asking us -a-ny-t-hing. I got the impression DC 1798 that he'd already talked about us, too, and I'm sure he did, uh talked about us to Elijah Mohammed.]]1807 Eddie Shirell said nothing the whole time. After he, ah - after he agreed that we would be the uh attorneys on the law suit - on the uh criminal trial, the interview was over. DC 1834 Then we were driven back to the uh Phoenix Airport; and Malcolm and Eddie Shirell and Loren and I flew back to uh Los Angeles. It was late at night.

Q: Okay. Now the trial itself. Ahm, what was the - what was the evidence as

you saw it? Tell me what happened according to the evidences you - as you saw it.

that we took and released the Muslims DC 1995 after it had been trumpeted that it was a shoot-out; and it was absolutely no shoot- out.]]2006 I don't care out what was said.

Q: Okay. Let me cut. I'm going to pick that up.

SPEEDING. AND CAN WE HAVE A MARKER?

THREE.

Q: Okay, ah, talk to me about the uhm, the, the idea that uh that it was a shootout and where that came from and how.

shoot-out. [There was a policeman who had been injured in a thumb or wrist or DC 2605 something like that, but that undoubtedly came from some ricochet from their weapon.] [The police having charged into the Mosque for no good reason, except they wanted to see what was in the Mosque,]2631 made many spurious claims against he Muslims. One claim I recall that was absolutely ridiculous was that one of the brothers had picked up a sparkling bottle of water and those, those bottles of water weigh, I don't know, a hundred pounds or sixty or DC 2671 eighty pounds, and supposedly struck one of the police officers with the bottle. It would have been extremely difficult for the brother to even lift it up if it was empty. [2696 They made lots of spurious claims. Ah, [they were very interested in going upstairs because upstairs was where they had the gym, uh as I recall, where they DC 2711 worked out. They searched that place -- they tore that place up and found not one pistol in there. One of the things that the Muslims at that time prided themselves

in was self-defense, and they utilized DC 2733 upstairs - that upstairs room to practice uh judo or whatever, martial art type thing that the, that they were taught.][So the press was just quick to pick up any - any claim no matter how far out it might be that the police released.]2763 The Muslims and our offices, that's our office and Brody's office released no press statements or anything of that sort. [2786 Any press statements were left up to the Muslims to make, but they always checked DC 2793 with us to see whether or not they would be justified in saying whatever it was at the time. They did emphasize -- the [Muslims emphasized the police brutality, and this was for recruiting purposes and fundraising purposes, and also around this week of turmoil, the funeral of the, ah, Muslim that was killed was organized and was held.]2838

Q: Okay. Talk to me about that funeral. You - you said - you - you - you point to that as as -- as a, ah, kind of

significant uh event and talk to me, what you, what you found significant about it, or, or interesting.

Q: Tell me what we're talking about.

it was a Sunday, but it was a - it was a - I mean, I'm sorry, a Saturday; but it was a well-attended event.

Q: What kind of things did Malcolm talk about at that funeral? Do you remember what he was saying?

of the funeral, but it was a focal point for recruiting.

Q: Did Malcolm ever talk about uh justice and what that repre -- what that meant in terms of getting justice for what happened?

Q: You hear of this -- you read in the papers, especially the L.A. Times, that, ah, they - they talk about them, and when they speak about the Nation of Islam and

the Muslims as, ahm, as hate mongers, people who are - who are out to -- racist groups that are equated to the Klu Klux Klan --- ahm, that they were - they attacked the police. I mean, was this - were people buying into this or did, ahm, ah, or was that cutting across, separating along racial lines, and who was buying into that and who was not?

Q: Okay. Ahm, what happened in the trial? Ah, ah, how did, ahm -- what was the outcome of the trial, and what did

you, ah -- how did you feel about how the, ah, the trial was heard and - and the verdicts that were arrived at?

-acquitted, and he was: and there were several others that were acquitted.]]3406

BEGINNING OF SOUND ROLL #98 FOR THE MALCOLM X DOCUMENTARY.

Q: ... parts that he writes about it, he basically, you know, in - in their minds, he was - this guy's admitting to shooting unarmed people, yet there was ahm, seen as justified.

Q: Not yet

Q: Wait a minute, are we rolling?

YES.

Q: Slow down.

Q: We're going to pick this up again, do this last one again.

Q: Now this might be it? In this case, there's a conflict there that obviously the evidence wasn't - wasn't, ah, suggesting that. Ahm ...

FIVE.

Q: Ahm, in - in the, ah, stories --there are stories of Muslims having shot guns; there's a shotgun on the scene; ah, having taken a police revolver, ahm -- Did the, did any of this ever show up? Was this - is there any truth in all of this?

in the wrist or the thumb or whatever it was, and that was undoubtedly from a DC 3764 ricochet. Uh if there had been shooting by the Muslims, someone else would have been shot. The Mosque isn't all that big, and with police pouring in the front door, 'cause they came in the front door, uh someone else would have been shot, and it DC 3793 wouldn't have just been a thumb or arm or whatever it was. It clearly was a ricochet.]]3803

Q: Was Malcolm, I think, let's go back to Malcolm. Was Malcolm, in - in the middle of this -- did he uh welcome or want to see a, a kind of, ah, unified community uh effort in, in ah, responding to this? Did he try to seek that, or, or, or work with other groups to try and make that part of the response?

did want the community to rally behind the DC 3862 Muslims; but this was in order to raise the profile of the Muslims in the black community,]]3877 gain in numbers, ah ... In his conversations with, with me, he never tried to have me join the Muslims. He did talk about the philosophy that he uh espoused at that time. He did sincerely believe, I think, that uh white people were, I won't say devils, but that was a term that they used; he did feel that the white people were 'oppressors'; he did feel that blacks should defend themselves DC 3936 against oppressors. He did believe that blacks shouldn't be tied to the view of assimilation in the white community. He did believe that blacks should be separate and stand on their own two feet and not depend on uh white people for uh economic gain or any other gain. I don't think that he was against blacks cooperating with whites in order to achieve equality . DC 3984 I think he sincerely believed at that time that blacks and whites should be separate as far as marching to the goal of

equality. He recognized that there was DC 4004 not equality, and it would take a long time before there would be equality.

Q: Did a -- you - you mentioned that you - you felt that this timing, that you began to see some level of disagreement and within, between, within the ranks of - of - of - of Malcolm and his associates around what to do, and, ah, and his own kind of ... How - how did you see it? Talk about what you see - what you saw.

Q: Start again and let me know when you say hierarchy, that we know the hierarchy of the Nation of Islam.

were finished; before there was any sentencing, we would be interviewed by the, ah, hierarchy from the uh Nation of Islam from Chicago; and I do recall several visit by John Ali~ don't know what his title was, and by one of Elijah Muhammed's sons. During this period they would say things to me that indicated that there was a uhm uh personality problem.]]4140 I got the feeling that they didn't like the DC 4145 fact that Malcolm was achieving as much acclaim and success and identification as being a leader, ah, of the Muslims to their exclusion. Uh [4166 in this city as far as the hierarchy was concerned, it was Elijah Mohammed who was the person unknown and t was Malcolm who was on the scene;]4185 and no one knew John Ali, and no one knew the, ah, the - the sons of Elijah DC 4195 Mohammed. They were probably much better known in Chicago, but the publicity of the Muslims was all in Los Angeles and because of the trial, and because of the shooting, uh, uh the killing of the uh, the Muslim

and the paralyzing of the - the, ah, what - what's his name, Roger.

Q: Uhm, now, you - you talk about Malcolm in a certain kind of way. He would come to your office. Describe him coming to your office, what was he like; ahm - ahm, you have a -- you talk about him coming down the street, he came there alone, things like that. Talk to me about it - that relationship with you.

didn't talk so much about the trial, he talked about the, his philosophy, and we would talk at length. I recall we would talk until the sun set and the - the, ah, office grew dark. Ah, after the trial, I didn't see as much of him as maybe one or two times uh he would stop by. Now I have no idea whether he went to see Brody DC 4357 or - or not, but I know when he came to our office, we would talk. And I suppose it was because he was closer to my age than uh Loren's age Loren was old enough to be my father, so, ah, there was a different sort of relationship.

Q: You say that he was - he was very - he was very un - unassuming, uh that he never had an air of that, ah, he was bigger than he, than, or, or that he made you feel like he was more - he thought that he was important or anything like that. And - and talk to me about why you think he - he's survives today, this person known as a - a - as a figure.

Q: In light of that.

revered now when as a matter of fact, DC 4564 there are not many ..." out

MARKER. SIX.

Q: Okay, talk to me about -- you were - we were talking about Malcolm as a - a person, and what, ah, why he, he, he endures with his - his - his personality as a person, his memory, the memory of him. And what, how you, ah, when you look back and you think about the person that you knew. Ah, what is it about that person that made you feel that people would have grabbed on to him now?

Q: Talk to him, when you talk about it, make sure you say Malcolm so we'll know who you're talking about.

probably come along in a different light. DC 5264 He wouldn't be a religious teacher as he was then, but more a uh, but more of a social teacher because he was trying to tell the people at that time what they should do, how they should reach the goal, but he was doing it through Elijah Mohammed's Nation of Islam. Later on he uh recognized that that might not be the correct vehicle, and I think, as I, ah, DC 5314 said before, that people recognize Malcolm as - for what he was rather than for what he did. He was a teacher, he was a leader, and he was pointing the way; he was showing the way. It wasn't that he did so much at that time - he didn't, but his sermons or his talks and so forth were in the - in the form of explaining and teaching and as I said before, showing the way.

Q: You - you used that word, teacher a lot. You, you were talking about this is how you saw Malcolm and you and can you - can you talk about this idea of a

teacher and in the context or in the memory of - of, ah, of an encounter you had with him, something that you remember how you talked - things you talked about. How he, - was this?

teachers. They try to emphasize certain points, and it's guided by their religious beliefs; and I think Malcolm used that, ah, not surreptitiously, but he used those religious beliefs as a vehicle to get across the ideas that he had regarding the relationship of the blacks to the greater community.

Q: Now do you - you, ahm - were talking to me about that - when, when the Muslims came up for, ah, sentencing. This was after Malcolm had been uh, uh put out. Talk to me about the argument that the Nation of Islam lawyer made to the court to try to ahm - ahm - address the sentencing.

except me and him.] And I asked him what did you mean, and he said that it'd be - that they would be offered judgeships and positions and all these things. And as a matter of fact when the trial came, [Loren, my partner, was a Judge; Earl Brody was a Chief Deputy District Attorney, I was still just a lawyer and I handled the sentencing, and Malcolm had been expelled from the Nation of Islam.] At the time of sentencing, the Chicago faction sent a Chicago lawyer out and requested that I make him co-counsel. He was not licensed to practice law in California; and the Judge indicated that he had no problem with this lawyer -- I don't - I have no idea what his name is -- sitting at the table, but he didn't want him to say anything. The probation report of each of the uh defendants contained their background and so forth and a letter that they address the court and ah, they require or they expect some showing of remorse. I don't know how, but [each of the Muslims used as a mitigating factor to

point out to the court that they had been duped by Malcolm and took those positions, and was v-v-v - it was very close to the time that he had been, ah expelled to try to justify a non-prison sentence. To a man they adopted that, so it's obvious that that was a part of the Muslim strategy; one to, ah - ahhh - to criticize Malcolm, and I think that would be - that would be the Muslim's hierarchy's plan;] and two, to try to get a, ah - a, ah - lenient sentence from a judge who was Jewish and - and, ah hostility between Muslims and Jews is well know.

Q: So what exactly were they saying when you say duped and...

Q: Under -- tell me who we're talking about.

Q: That's good.

Q: I think so. Can you think of anything?

NO. I THINK THAT'S IT.

Q: Can I keep this -- I could get those probation records, couldn't I? They're court records now, right?

probation report; and they would have letters...