Well, I can recall Harlem in the early thirties when ah, we were, you might say teenagers growing up in Harlem, and uh, everything was fun. Was ah no gangs to speak of, no delinquencies and...

Well, the Harlem of the late thirties was a very lively neighborhood. Was a friendly neighborhood. And a...peaceful neighborhood. And everyone got along with BC 2870 everyone else and uh, the main thrust was to make a living. And ah, keep your job and raise your children. And as a...youngsters

at that time, we ah hit on a formula to ah go away in the summer for two weeks in a camp by BC 2904 joining the three-sixty-ninth National Guard regimen. And that was the way we got out of ah, Harlem during the summer. We got a two week vacation with pay--pay a dollar a day—— and we went away with the three—sixty—ninth, which ah, was started in nineteen thirty—six when we were teenagers with three—sixty- ninth. And Harlem progressed from that point ah, I say progressed and then it uh regressed BC 2951 later on, but I like to talk about the uh positive parts of Harlem where you could go ah walk the streets any hour of the day or night without any problems and uh, give parties and ah walk home from parties or...there was a lot of walking in the thirties and forties, number one because no one had enough money to buy a car or take cabs, and secondly ah, most of the people lived around the same neighborhood and it was BC 3001 nothing to walk ten or twenty blocks ah in that time. It's only lately where we have inherited a taxi cab syndrome where we don't do much walking.

Well, as a young patrolman in Harlem, I was assigned to the twenty-eighth BC 3046 precinct which was at a hundred and twenty- third street, which covered from a hundred and tenth to a hundred and twenty- I believe hundred twenty-eighth street. From Fifth Avenue to say Nicholas Avenue. Quite a small territory with a lot of people. And in that area we had ah quite a mixture of ah people, various elements and ah types. But it was basically a ah, mm- a, p— not too poor. I started to say it was a poor area, but we had along Seventh Avenue from A Hundred and Tenth BC 3114 to I believe about A Hundred and Eighteenth Nineteenth Street we had some big, lo— eight- room apartments and high ceilings which were inhabited by some of the more wealthy ah,

I never left the tenth division. I lived in the tenth division. That's, BC 3287 which’s, was the thirty-second precinct. And I worked in the twenty-eighth precinct, which is also in the tenth division. So I never left. I was always in the tenth division. Unless I went visiting or something like that. So, we had——and at that time, policeman were required to live in the city of New York. And because of that, you had greater protection because the policemen never moved too far. When they were on duty or off duty, they were still in the city. When they were going to work they were on the BC 3343 subway or the bus. Going home from work they were likewise on the subway or bus. And, history will show that some of the best arrests were made by off-duty policemen.

Well, in the early part of uh, fifty-two, ah, when Malcolm arrived on the scene, a hundred and twenty fifth street was, as we said, the black capital of the world. BC 3405 And it was looked at as the hub of all activity surrounding ah, black life. And ah, Seventh Avenue and a hundred and twenty-fifth street was similar to Union Square downtown, and the other, I don't know if it's Trafalgar

Okay.

We'll go along with the--

Mm-hm.

[BC 3544 Well, [in the early ah nineteen fifties, a hundred and twenty-fifth street and Seventh Avenue was the center of activity

Well, the first thing you noticed about them w-was their neatness.

[[3743 The first thing you noticed about the ah, members of the Nation of Islam was their neatness. And ah, the men wore, basically black or navy blue suits, white shirts, black bow tie, shoes always shined, hair cut very short. And the women wore sort of flowing robes. Or long Arabic style. Some covered their faces, some didn't. But ah, basically, you knew who you were dealing BC 3792 with and ah, I would imagine, and it was told to me by ah, some of the people that were attracted to the Nation of Islam, that that

Well I ah, figured that since I was assigned as liaison between these various BC 3948 groups and the police department, it would be, you might say expedient to meet the leaders of all of these groups. which I had done in the past.

All right.

[3990 Well,[[3 as ah, a member of the police department whose assignment it was to act as liaison between the Nation of Islam and the police department or the city, you might say, I thought it would be fitting and proper to meet the head of the Nation of Islam in New York City. So one day I went up to Temple Number Seven on a hundred sixteenth street and announced by presence to the gentleman at the door and told him who I was and what I was there for. And he said Just a BC 4049 minute, sir. And I must say you have never come across a s- a courtesy, a more courteous group...than the Nation of Islam. Even if you get nothing in return, you get courtesy.]]4071 so the gentleman very courteously told me, Sit here and wait. And I waited and he came back with another fellow. And he asked me the nature of my business and I told him. Okay. And he went back. And then finally another fellow came back, and told me to leave my name and my telephone number and BC 4108 Malcolm would get in touch with me. And, with that, I was...shown the door. And, sure enough ah, I got a call and I met with Malcolm and I explained to him what my job

Nnnn...

Yeah, there was some. There was BC 4225 an incident there at the temple, where, if I recall, an offic- the, an officer was ah, assaulted at the temple, but you see, this

Well, it was important for the police department to have liaison with the Nation of Islam, as well as with all organizations in the city. Various religious groups, social groups and so forth. So that

Yeah.

As an illustration of how well I was known by the members of the Nation of Islam, I got into a taxi cab in Harlem one evening, and before I could give the taxi driver my address or my destination, he asked me, Are you going home, Mr. DeFossett? And I said, Oh wow, you know me? And he said, Oh yes. And I said ah, Yes, I'm going home. He says, Okay, and he took me home, without BC 5064 asking me my address. So it uh, made me know that ah, I was no secret to the Nation of Islam. That they knew who I was, they knew where I lived, they knew all about me. You might say, not as much as I knew about them, but ah, as I said, it wasn't a secret operation. It wasn't cloak and dagger, BC 5103 anything like that because ah, first of all, when you're married with wife and family and mother and father all here in this same

Well, as, as a police officer in civilian clothes, you just stood there. I mean, there wasn't anything for you to do but listen.

Ah, you see, ah, ah, at the beginning, as a uniformed patrolman, your job was crowd control, traffic control, and things like that. But, a detective or plain clothesman, he dges not have that function. out of sync

Mm—hm.

Okay.

5241[Well, [when you stand as as a police officer in civilian clothes, or police officer's uniform, there's no doubt that Malcolm gets your attention. No doubt about it when he first starts his speech. He gets your attention. Now, he can talk on any number of subjects.]]5278 he can talk topical, he can take stories from the morning's paper and show you how that relates to the Nation of BC 5295 Islam and how it relates to the black community and so forth. He can take religion. He can go back in the Bible and and relate certain stories in the Bible to the ah, assemblage there at a hundred and twenty-fifth street. Now, ah, he didn't always say the same thing at every rally. He would have ah, a topic at one rally and he would show that the white people were the enemies of the black people. And he would BC 5342 prove it through any number of things from slavery right on up. And then, ah...

Well, at a rally where Malcolm was speaking...

[[5378 When you attend a rally ah, where Malcolm X is the ah, main speaker, you have first ah, a m- ah, I guess wh- a multiplicity of people, backgrounds and whatnot. [You have certain people that stop out of curiosity and w- listen for about three minutes and keep going. Others would stop and stay. Others would clap at every opportunity. They would scream and clap and say "right on, brother," or whatever the term was used at that time.] And ah, some would actually ah, join from BC 5450 That speech. In other words, they liked what they heard, and they would become ah a member from that speech. And then you have the,

...the call.

I think he was taken to Sy-Dem Hospital.

5529[ I can remember the night that a fellow by the name of Hinton Johnson was ah, allegedly hit in the head by a policeman and ah, I got a call and I went down to Sy-Dem Hospital, where he was being attended.]]5555 And ah, I met uh, Lieutenant--or was he Sergeant then--Jim Harding, from the twenty—eighth squad. [[5592 And we had hundreds of Muslims, men and women, walking around the hospital. They BC 5588 had ringed the whole block. And they were simply just walking silently and it was ah, quite a strange feeling, two, three o'clock in the morning, having th people walking around not saying anything.]5610 Then I remember they sent for this ah, brain surgeon, Dr. Matthews. And he saved Johnson. He BC 5626 performed a very delicate operation. And he saved his life. And we, meaning Harding and myself, were grateful to Matthews as much as

[[5722 One of the things that I will always remember about Malcolm and his group outside of Sy—Dem Hospital that night was the BC 5739 control he had over his group. The silence and the orderliness. They simply walked and, as they said, silent prayer, around that 5763 whole block.]]5763 And, usually when you have a

Well, ironically, it wasn't known throughout Harlem. Why? Because it happened BC 5884 in the middle of the night. Everyone was sleeping. By the time it got light, they had ah, Johnson was no longer in danger of dying.

Well [[5991 after that demonstration at the Sy-Dem Hospital, Malcolm gained the stature of a true leader. That he was regarded,] ah, I don't know how he was regarded in the eyes of other community leaders or the police department and whatnot, but [ as of that moment, after he led that silent demonstration which was one hundred BC 6041 percent orderly, he was perceived as a person who could control an organization. He had

No. No, it didn't change, because ah, what I did I did on a daily basis regardless of whether he demonstrated or BC 6092 whether he didn't demonstrate. We would still meet once or twice a week just to chitchat.

I don't think personally it meant anythIng to anybody.

Ah, the visit of ah Fidel Castro to the Hotel Theresa or to Harlem or to ah, Malcolm X, that particular night, it was just a whole lot of people out in the street and ah, every long car, every Cadillac that came by, everybody said There he is! There he is! And he wasn't. And finally he came up and they met and had a few words and shook hands, and away he went. But it wasn't what you BC 6196 would call a significant event that the community had looked forward to for a long time and they were happy to see Castro, or they were happy to see Malcolm and Castro. It was just a curiosity situation, where, let's see! And they waited until Castro got there and ah, waved him bye—bye.

Yes.

Well, to me it it would have to mean something to me, number one as a--

The visiting of ah, the visits to Harlem of the ah black leaders meant something to me as a black parent. Because I would ah, explain to my son who these people were, from whence they came, and so forth. Now, as a member of the police department, their visits just ah meant protection you might say. But ah, it was ah considered par BC 6330 for the course you might say, for most of the people, black and white leaders, to visit Harlem at some point in time. As the Pope/

: Well, the visits to Harlem by the newly emerged black leaders, it was ah, you might say a source of pride and so forth, but ah, beyond the cosmetics...

The ah visits of the ah newly emerged leaders of the African countries visi- ah, to Harl- visiting Harlem was ah, I would say, number one, a source of pride and it was ah basically a cosmetic situation, where you come up and everybody’s waving flags and they make a speech. They go back down to the Waldorf Astoria and that's it. But the plan for a third world office building on a hundred and twenty-fifth street, now that has some teeth. That has BC 6465 some real significance. If that ever gets off the ground. whereby these African or newly emerged countries can have somewhere to go to trade and ah discuss international business.

[[6513 Well, Malcolm was unique ah in that he came from the streets to start with, and ah, he would always say that you can't con a con man. And he would let you know that he wasn't always the head of a religious group.]]6548 An we traced his ah, he used to discuss his early years as a kid in Detroit and he was what, Detroit Red they used to call him out there. And ah, in fact I remember that he was a good friend of Redd Foxx. They both came along together out there. Then when he got here, now let's see, I don't know wh- whether he met Elijah BC 6597 Muhammed before he got to New York or after. I think he met him before he got to New York and ah while he was in prison. And then when he came to New York, then he came to New York as ah Elijah Muhammed's ah representative in New York. But ah,6625[ Malcolm knew the score. I mean, he knew n- ah, how to deal with people. He knew how to eh, eh his manners was above reproach. I mean, even if you are a BB 6650 policeman trying to move him off the curb or something, why, he'd "sir" you to death and ah what- make you feel almost like you y-y- you should apologize to him for

As time went on, ah, between BC 6741 Malcolm and myself, the relationship ah began to be more friendly than at the beginning. At the beginning it was strictly business more or less. But ah, you can't see a person or be in their company once or twice a week and not ah, sort of break down barriers or so forth. And that's what we succeeded in doing. Ah, for instance, [[6784 he would tell me things that ah, which I took to be a test.

[[7513 You have to realize that a person like Malcolm ah would thrive necessarily on exposure. And in the advent of television talk shows and whatnot was right down his alley. And [he could reach more people on television than he could at those street corner rallies, you see. So, therefore, he, BC 7551 would ah, really] ah, welcome those talk shows on television. And that brought him international ah acclaim.]]7568 It-—

Well, it didn't ah ah increase as J/M far as ah, interest is concerned. Ah, we noticed that they had ah, they started on Lenox Avenue and hundred and sixteenth street. And then they had branch mosques in Queens and Brooklyn. So naturally, you have- you see for yourself that the organization is growing by leaps and bounds. Ah, and so that it naturally would call for attention, but n- no more attention than ah a normal group. BC 7663 Because the incidents involving the Nation of fl,- Islam and the police were ah, very small. Very small. Because the discipline in that organization was the likes that you've never seen. People are searched when they come into the mosques, and there's no weapons brought in. There's no fighting. There's no loud talking. Everything is in order. [7708 So [the ah job of keeping the peace was Malcolm's, so Malcolm kept the, the group in BB 7719 order so the police department didn't have to police the group at any time. Because when they had something to do, they had the Fruit

Oh yes, one ah, one morning I got a call from Malcolm ah telling me that they were going to the Museum of Natural History. And ah, asked me would I like to come along. Well, this is the relationship that we had built up. That, when I was not aware of the atti- of the ah activities that they had planned, they would call me. So I told him, BC 7973 Yes, I will come down to the mosque and I'd go down to the museum with him. So ah, it

Oh, yes! He had, he he ah it was a big joke at the museum when we passed the ah gorilla exhibit. When he told all of the people there: Go up and examine the skin of these gorillas and whatnot. And tell me what you find. And they came back and said, The skin is white. So, he says well, how is it that they always call us gorillas and monkeys and compare us with monkeys when our skin is black and the monkey's skin is white. And it w- it was a running joke during the museum BC 8244 visit, that the people at the, the animal we're so closely connected with has white skin.

Oh, yes! He, he, Malcolm was a good ah orator. And he knew how to, as the old Baptist preachers used to say, raise you up and move, put you back down, you see. He'd raise his voice or he'd say something and to get your attention and hone in on it and...he he knew when he had you going, see. And and he was, he was a f-, no one could ever say he was a poor speaker. He, he knew...and he knew his subject. You see, he knew his subject. I w- ah, because ah he very seldom spoke from a written script. BC 8341 Which gives more force and effect to what you say when you're not reading it.

Let's see here.

Oh, I'm trying to- I'm trying to pinpoint the ah, day or the month or the year rather. He was assassinated I think in sixty-three?

Sixty—five? Well, in sixty-five, I was working for the state department in BC 8396 sixty-five. And I don't know whether I was in New York or not. But I knew--I heard about it right away, because it came over-- whate- wherever I was, I heard about it on the television or radio. And then, actually I was very, very sad to hear that, because ah, he had just made his turn. He had just turned around.

Yeah. Well, Malcolm had just BC 8441 made his turn from the fiery leader to a-—not a pacifist, but he was a, a nice person to deal with. Now, he had th—these enemies, blue eyed devils that he had considered his enemies but no, no longer his enemies. And he ah, appeared to be on the road to good. And ah, that's it. His life was taken away.

I felt |out first that ah, the Nation of Islam had lost a a great leader. That's an automobile alarm; heh, we got everything working!

They were comparing ideologies. Turn the other cheek.

As opposed to not turning the cheek at all.

Well, when Malcolm X was assassinated, the first thing you had to ah feel was sympathy toward his people, his group. The, the Nation of Islam. And secondly, as a ah, as an individual, I felt that I had lost a friend. Because we had developed a close friendship at that point, or up to that point. And ah, you couldn't help but have a real sad reaction to his assassination.

Oh, yes.

I never met ah, his children. I met his wife. On, once, before she was his wife. She was part of the ah, Nation of Islam female group. I met her just once.

No, we would just eh, our conversation was more general. We'd talk about the Nation of Islam, or we'd talk about politics as they relate to the city, or politics as they relate to the state of New York, or something like that.

Oh yeah.

I, I can’t...there’s quite a few, U but I can't pinpoint one exactly, but he would take a question or, that you would ask, BC 8724 Or statement that you would make and just by emphasizing one syllable or, of of a word, would twist the whole meaning around and, in some cases, get a laugh and in some cases get a Ooohh. You see. And that was his ah, forte. He, he, he,[[8756 the expression "thinking on your feet"? Well, he thought on his feet. He could ah, he was never lost for an answer. You never tied him up. Say, well you can't, BC 8774 I’ll ask you a question that you can't answer. Or I'll ask you a question that you're afraid to answer: never. He he looked

Well ah, very seldom, because as BC 8828 I recall, ah, [some of my co-workers were a little hesitant to get in ah, conversations on subjects like Malcolm X or any of the racial situation. But he was regarded mostly as a rabble-rouser among white police and otherwise. And a, a source or ah possible, possibility for trouble. And ah, in that vein I guess they had a little fear for him in that they didn't know him. And ah, as I grew to know him, I ah, firmly believed that BC 8902 the only incident or the only time that you would have an incident involving the police, or anybody, with Muslims, is if the Muslim

I have a vague recollection of that because ah, since it didn't involve people locally, we were just you might say observers, but we did listen to some of the speeches and, as I said, ah, he was able to really work up the public, who happened to be at that particular rally. He could really—-

Well, the basic thing that he wanted to put over, as I recall, was that ah, no one has the right to do anything to you if you are in the right. And this was what he seemed to be hammering on in most of his speeches. That if you are right, no one should take anything from you, do anything to you, or generally interfere with you. Because it's unconstitutional gmd so forth. BC 9094 Now ah, if you are right--[[9083here's the part that ah I would say would cause a lot of ah Muslims to be involved in a confrontation. AS he said, if I interpreted him correctly, if you are right, don't let anybody put a hand on you. You die defending your right. I believe I'm quoting him not maybe exactly but, he instilled in these people: do right BC 9137 at all times, but if someone won't let you do right, t n you just have to ah, go against them.]] 9151

That included everybody. That included everybody.

Well, I don't think that part was actually ah, ever discussed or eh delineated in any writings or whatnot. It was just BC 9181 something that you felt and ah, [9188I don't know. [It might have m- ah, made a’ lot of police more alert in their dealings with Muslims and Malcolm. In other words, if you know that this man who is a Muslim will react a certain way if you act a certain way, then you may not act that way. You see. That you might say now this man, according to his training, BC 9241 according to his teaching, will die fighting me if he thinks I'm taking advantage of him. So maybe I better not take advantage of him.]] 9260 BEEP.

I have to add to that, too 'cause I left—-

MISC: Speeding. Take twenty—three.

I mentioned that the attitudes of the ah police as they relate to ah Muslims--I have to also emphasize that there was not a difference in treatment of one person and another person because he is or is not a Muslim, you see. I mean, everybody as far as the police department doctrine, the police department instruction, everybody gets treated fairly.

Being pressured by who?

Well, I I would say this: that since I was the only one in the police department who had you might say an excellent viewpoint or an excellent relationship with the leader, that I couldn't be pressured into jeopardizing my position. As I recall ah, I have had ah at that time we had conversations with inspectors and whatnot, and I explained to them as I explained to you, that I live with these people. My family lives with these people. We associate with these people. When I say "these people" I mean the BC 9443 Muslims. And if you think that I am going to be cloak and dagger with these people, no. You got another think coming. I will not do that.

Well, let's say this: that there were certain suggestions that were put forth by the ah, we'll say police brass, the higher-ups in the police department. And their suggestions were based on their attitude or their knowledge of Malcolm and the Nation of Islam. And these things, ah-—I can't think of one at the moment——but when |out they were brought to me, I dismissed them BC 9534 right away because ah...it just was not appropriate to do. Based on my relationship with Malcolm and the national— Nation of Islam. That ah, it would have done--whatever it was--it would've done more harm than good. And as I explained to them, the ah, liaison capacity does not carry a risk to me or my family.