Team B. Lieutenant Colonel Frederick H. Black.

Mark it.

[unintelligible]

[inaudible]

Colonel Black, first, my first question is about, what was the reason you came to Howard? And talk about the tradition of Howard that attracted you to the school.

I had been raised in the Army and had spent most of my life going to schools on Army posts, until I got to high school. Matter of fact, my last two years of high school I was in the city of Detroit where I graduated. And both my mom and my dad, my aunt, my uncle and a brother had attended Howard. And I was attracted to Howard because of that tradition. The fact that Howard University was a place where you knew you would get a quality education, and you would also get a quality education while living the Black experience. And that was important as I was considering where to go to college in 1963, looking forward to [background discussion] graduating in '64 and going off to some school. So, Howard was attractive just because of that relationship.

OK, let's cut.

OK.

Marker.

Tell me again what attracted you and made you want to come to Howard in '64.

I was attracted to Howard for one reason, because many members of my family had attended Howard. My mom and dad, my aunt and uncle and my brother.

Can we cut please?

Cut.

Mark it.

What was, what attracted you about, you know, co-coming to Howard in '64 [unintelligible]?

Well, Howard was part of a family tradition. My mother and father, my brother, my aunt and uncle had all attended Howard. And it was a known fact that you could get a good education at Howard. It had a tradition for excellence in education, and it had also a long history of preparing people for service, lawyers, doctors, et cetera. And I looked at Howard as a great opportunity to go to school and live the Black experience.

You were a member of ROTC. How did they treat you as a member of ROTC in '64, '65, and then later on, '67, '68?

When we first got to Howard in the fall of 1964, ROTC was compulsory for two years, you had to do four semesters. ROTC was engrained in, in campus life. Thursday afternoons you had drill out on the football field, and you would march around for a couple of hours and, and do your drills and the stands many times, particularly when the weather was nice, would be filled with spectators who were just observing drill. And it was really part of the campus scene. ROTC did not have much controversy associated with it even though everybody knew it was compulsory. And you had a choice between Army and Air Force. So both units would be out on the field at the same time, and there were just a large number of spectators who would come and watch you. By the time ROTC became a, a political issue on the campus, doing away with its compulsory nature, in many cases you experienced difficulty because you were in ROTC, particularly if you were in the voluntary part the third and fourth year. I remember very clearly a professor telling me on a Thursday morning, Don't ever come back to her class in my ROTC uniform, and it was very clear to me that she meant it. That whole change in attitude toward ROTC, of course, was in many ways influenced by the escalation of the war in Vietnam and the fact that people were protesting the war, but that had not really reached the campus yet, the issue still was just compulsory ROTC.

You had mentioned earlier you had saw Ali on the campus in '67. This is when he had become a conscientious object-objector, and he had said, "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger." A mem—being a member of ROTC, also you had a brother who was in Vietnam, how did you feel when you saw Ali on campus and he was talking to the students out here on the campus?

Well, I think the, the main reaction that I remember was that—

Let's, let's, let's cut a second.

OK.

I want you to include—

Mark it.

Just a second. How's the angle?

[inaudible] tight.

OK [unintelligible]

OK.

Now, Ali's on the campus, he's speaking to the students, he's a conscientious, conscientious objector, you know, and you're a member of ROTC, you have a, you have a brother who's in Vietnam. What's your personal reaction to what was going on out there?

The day of the Ali speech, which was probably one of the largest crowds ever out there, over five thousand people at least, as I listened to him explain why he did not want to join the Army, I remember feeling that gee, things are going to be different from now on. Here is a, a Black figure who has come out publicly against the war, against even being in the service. And it seemed to me that we had fought so many years to be included in the major institutions in this country, that all of the sudden now we are arguing against being part of these major institutions. And those who, you know, who had gone voluntarily to Vietnam and even given their life did it because they believed in what the country was about, and here now we're starting to challenge those basic assumptions about not only the war but the role of Black people in America in support of that war.

What was your reaction personally? I mean, I understand what you're saying, but you musta had some real personal feelings about listening to him out there on the campus. You got a brother, you told me, who had graduated from Howard, who was in Vietnam, and you in ROTC who’s gonna go, eventually, to Vietnam. What were you thinking?

Personally I, I respected his right to decide not to participate, but I think, as I remember, my major reaction was that this is a, a, bad signal to the rest of the country when you have a charismatic leader like Muhammad Ali saying that Black people should not join the service. It seemed to me that that would be a sure way of excluding yourself voluntarily from an important aspect of American society, and I just felt that this was not gonna bode well for Black America.

The Hershey, the Hershey event that took place in February of '67. How did you see that?

I was there that evening when General Hershey—

Let’s cut.

—came.

Stop down.

Rolling and speed.

Marker.

What did the Hershey event mean?

I was in Cramton Auditorium the night of General Hershey's speech where he was invited to explain the draft and the rules and all those sorts of things. And in the middle of his address there was a protest that came on the stage and in the process General Hershey was knocked down. And I remember thinking that night that this was a major change in the direction of the campus protest movement that had been building momentum. Here's a national figure, appearing at Howard, that was going to result in many of the, the so-called outsiders of the university trying to impose their will on Howard, and they could do that very easily financially since a significant part of Howard's budget came from the federal government. And here was a federal officer, if you will, a Lieutenant General in the Army who headed the Selective Service system, who had been mistreated at Howard, at least in the eyes of many. And I, I just remember thinking that, gee, this means the whole direction of protest on this campus is gonna be different.

You said something about the media handling, the way the media handled this, this whole thing on the campus. What was your reaction to the media coming up here with their cameras and their newspaper reporters, and all their press people? What was your reaction to the media coming to the Howard campus and watching the conflict between the students and the faculty?

Well, in the case of General Hershey's visit, the media was very evident that night, and you never saw the media for most presentations, so you got the feeling that someone must have invited the media because something was going to happen that would be newsworthy, or at least in eyes of the TV stations, and that of course came about. The next day the TVs and the newspapers all made a big deal out of what happened that evening in Cramton Auditorium to General Hershey. But from that point on the Howard protests received a lot of media attention, and there were days when you just got accustomed to seeing reporters and TV cameras wandering around campus asking people their opinion on various things that were going on. But I think the Hershey incident for the media was a clear signal that something different was happening at Howard University. Something that was unlike student protests in days before. This was a serious issue-oriented protest movement.

Let's cut.

OK.

You, you were tellin' us—

You ready?

Yes.

The conflict among the students and the faculty, what kind of signal did this give to the media?

Well, one of the things that struck me was that, for the first time, the media was interested in portraying Blacks disagreeing with Blacks. Whereas the media had covered the civil rights struggle as an example of Blacks fighting for their rights, the, the whole civil rights struggle as we saw on TV on the evening news, but now, here we have an example of a prestigious Black university where the students, faculty, and administration is in conflict, and it seemed like this was a very desirable news story for many of these folks, particularly here in Washington DC, given the tradition that Howard has had in this city. And it was not unusual from that point on to see negative Howard stories on TV or in the newspaper, and you just wondered whether or not people were interested in what was really happening here or interested in portraying the students—

—faculty, and administration in a negative light.

Cut. How did you react?

Rollout.

How did you feel about this?

Rollout twenty, seven, eight.

Continuation of two, three, six sound.

Mark it.

As a member of the student government in '66, '67 and watching the Hershey events and student demonstrations against compulsory ROTC, you know, students being expelled, the constant conflict between the students and faculty, what was going on in your head?

During that period of constant conflict and turmoil on campus, and as a member of the student government, I felt like we were definitely losing control of the situation, because in many ways the elected student leaders had no legitimacy left on campus. Those who elected us to represent their views and communicate with the administration, it seemed like we were dismal failures at that. As a result, a vacuum wasn't going to be tolerated, therefore new leaders emerged. And that's when I think the student movement on campus sort of passed the elected leadership by and took control of the momentum. And the next year you saw slates of candidates for offices all over campus that came from this umbrella organization that represented a lot of the, the so-called moderate and militant student groups that spawned almost overnight, these groups that rose in opposition to the Liberal Arts Student Council and the university-wide Student Assembly, which were the, the major governing organizations. And, of course, each college had their own student council, but each university college sent someone to the university senate and that was the overall coordinating organization. And it was very clear that control was shifting in, in a very rapid way, that the elected student leaders were not going to be the ones who were going to carry this battle forward. There was just no legitimacy left. Now, as a individual involved in ROTC and in student government and had many friends in many of these organizations, you felt like you were being pulled apart different ways, because you knew what you thought would work, and violence wasn't the answer, and it was almost unheard of in those days to place demands on administrators, but yet that started to happen. People demanded the resignation of the president and the dean of liberal arts and the vice president of the university. I don't think many of the elected student government leaders would have gone that far, given that tradition that existed when I first came to the campus. There was always room to negotiate and talk and there was fairly good relationships on the campus. But by '67, after a couple of the incidents over the judiciary board that was going to review the cases of those who had been involved in the Hershey incident and a couple of other things, there was just a loss of faith, confidence you might say, no trust. And once that happened it was very clear that the movement had been passed to different hands.

Give it to me again and really compress it this time.

OK.

You know, in terms of, you know, as a student leader, how'd you feel about all the things that were going on the campus in '66?

As a student leader, you felt like you were being pulled apart, pulled in different directions by what you thought what the right way to deal with the problem was as opposed to what the popular opinions on campus happened to reflect. A much more militant attitude on the part of some students in dealing with the administration, techniques and tactics that were directly coming from the broader civil rights struggle off the campus, and, and you had to feel like this was not necessarily gonna work [background discussion] on a university campus.

OK, let's cut.

Mark it.

As a student leader, what was goin' on in your head, Colonel Black, in '67?

Well, you know, after the Hershey incident where we had the student disciplinary hearings and the faculty got involved in some ways, I remember feeling very clearly that the situation was unraveling rapidly and that, as a result, a lot of the students lost the confidence in the student government, and you saw very dramatically this whole movement passed to a new set of leaders. Not elected leaders, but proclaimed leaders who had a lot of supporters out there among the students on the campus. And you could see that this was a turning point because the old techniques that the elected students had been following were seen not to work, and therefore students who demanded action, and fast action were willing to go with a more militant set of leaders.

Great. Let's cut.

OK.

Great. Thank—

Mark it.

OK, sound?

Yep.

OK.

OK. The day of the takeover, a lotta, lotta your friends, a lotta the students you went to school with went into the building, into the administration building. How come you didn't go in?

Well, the day of the takeover, I guess it was March of '68, a lot of my friends were very much involved with the takeover in leadership roles as well as support roles. Many of us were fellow political science students. I was a few months away from graduation and a commission in the United States Army, and I had decided pretty much that I was gonna go serve in the Army for at least five years, and I knew very well that that takeover could lead to a situation where my future may be very much affected by that decision to participate in that demonstration. I did not believe taking over the university was the way to go. I agreed that the situation needed to change, that something had to be resolved in the conflicts [background discussion] on campus, but a sit-in, takeover, a situation that could lead to violence very rapidly I didn't think was the solution, and of course a lot of other students didn't. But I think one of the things that stands uppermost in my mind, that even though many of us disagreed on the methods, we were still friends and we still agreed that we were working toward the same end.

OK. Ask you, I'm gonna ask you this again. Ewart Brown was there, and you were telling me he was a moderate. I mean, what was different about Ewart's situation, 'cause he wanted to go to medical school, and your situation—

Yeah.

—since you wanted to go into the service? He went into the building.

Ewart was president of the Student Assembly, and I think Ewart strongly believed that from his position of leadership he could do more to help keep the situation under control by being involved than by completely turning the situation over to people who may not handle it as well as he thought he could. Lew—Ewart was a clear leader, there is no doubt about it. And I'm sure Ewart, as he would reflect back on those days where we debated the, the various techniques, would agree that there was a lot of dissension [background discussion] in the ranks as to what would be the most effective technique. I was not gonna participate in a takeover because I didn't believe that was the solution.

OK. Let's cut.

Mark it.

Hey.

[inaudible]

And these were professionals at Howard whose jobs were to teach students, you know, your parents spent all this money for you to go to school and get an education. I mean, your parents musta spoken, spoken to you, you know, when they heard about all of what was goin' on, on the campus. You know, I mean, what'd you think?

Yeah, my parents spoke very clearly and if I remember the line, it was, You're not at Howard University to get a degree in protest. You're at Howard University to get a diploma, a diploma that will stand you in good stead for the rest of your life. I think there was a real problem amongst some students who were hearing that from home like I was, that, gee, where do you get off telling the administrators of that great university how to run things? This was a very radical departure on college campuses, where the students decided to decide what was best for them. This was not something that many of the administrators had any experience with either, and I think in some ways that's why they were caught off guard with the intensity, the real intense situation they found themselves having to deal with. But I remember thinking that, gee, you know, these people been runnin' a university for a long time. Why is it that everybody rejects anything and everything they say, just because they happen to be the administrators? But yet you had to agree with the students who were arguing about some of the basic rights and procedures of the university, that something needed to be reformed. And so, you were sorta caught between these crosscurrents once again, between what all of your home training told you, you should be doing, but yet common sense told you something had to change, just no doubt about it.

Tell me again what, what your parents, your parents' reactions were to what was going on, going on up there on the campus.

Yeah, well my parents lived down the road in Woodbridge at the time, even though I was living up here on campus. It was a long trip to make those twenty-six miles back in those days. But they were followin' it very closely, because they were reading _The Washington Post_ every day and getting the local DC television stations, and they were concerned about whether it was gonna get outta hand and whether anyone's safety would be put in jeopardy, particularly just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And like all of us in that era, we've all heard our moms say the only way you get in trouble is when you're in the wrong place, and just don't be where you're not supposed to be. Well, all of sudden, where you are is where the trouble is, at a university, working toward a degree. And I remember my parents saying over and over again, Use good common sense. Don't get yourself in a situation that is going to, you know, negatively impact on you and your, your future.

Let's cut.

Sound.

Mark it.

OK.

You had been a member, member of the student body, you are a member of ROTC, you were sort of outside, you know, of the hub of all this activity. How’d you feel? Did you feel out of place, I mean, at this time? All these radical students trying to change the campus and stuff.

No, by '68 I was trying to graduate and I had made a conscious decision not to be part of that group that was planning these major events on campus. I was very active in a couple of organizations still, but I had made a conscious choice that I was not gonna participate in what I considered to be activities that I just couldn't support, because I didn't agree with their, their techniques. So, I didn't feel out of place. I still had my friends and we still had our functions. And, you know, in some ways, you lived two lives on Howard's campus. Some of the normal collegiate things were still occurring, but yet they were occurring amidst all this turmoil and campus unrest. So, that never really bothered me. I didn't feel like I'd been ostracized by any of my friends because I wouldn't participate. You know, I think people were very tolerant of letting others make their decisions about what they were gonna do in regards to the protest.

How'd you feel, though, when they would have these meetings and you didn't go in? You had been together with your friends and you went to these meetings, and you didn't go into these meetings, you went off. I mean, how did you feel?

Well, in some ways it felt like you were giving up or giving in because—

Include my—

Yeah. When your friends were having meetings and you didn't participate in them, I think there was a feeling maybe that you were giving up or giving in to others, even though, you know, you might have made a contribution, or might have been able to contribute something that would have shaped the outcome of those meetings. But I had decided as early as the beginning of second semester of my senior year that the way this thing was moving it was not something that I wanted to be associated with.

Were you affected by, I mean, the, the, the Black consciousness that was coming about? I mean, Rap and Stokely and listening to Malcolm around that time.

Oh, I don't think you could help but be affected at Howard University by what was happening in the greater Black movement out there in the country. The militancy that was developing, the transformation from being a negro to being Black, the development of so-called Black curricular studies, the afro, all of those sorts of things hit Howard about that same time that the student demonstrations grew in intensity. You couldn't help but be influenced. It was just one of these things that everywhere you turned you saw indicators of massive change movement occurring on your campus. All of this happened within a very short period of time, too. I think that's important to remember, that this was not a long, drawn-out process. It, it was very sudden and it had a tremendous impact, I think, on everybody. As I mentioned to you before, the, the whole idea of the afro—

Let's cut. You, you, you can't say as I mentioned to you.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Did you stop?

Yes.

Mark it.

OK.

I wanna go back to this, this question I asked before. I mean, you said you were influenced, you could not help but be influenced by what was going on. I mean, it, it really musta had some stronger effects on you when you didn't go into these meetings where these other radical students were s-s-star-started to make strong and heavy decisions.

Not participating in some of the decision-making processes that involved the whole protest movement was a conscious decision. I remember feeling in some ways like you were giving up or giving in to others when you might have been able to make a contribution. But I had decided at the beginning of the second semester of senior year that I just wasn't going to get involved in planning those events and activities because I didn't believe that was the solution, so I basically stayed away and I didn't feel one bit guilty about staying away. I felt a little [background discussion] saddened, I think, that as the protest movement grew, there was less opportunity for multiple voices to be heard and differing viewpoints to be considered. I think the party line got to be very, very narrow.

OK, let's cut.

How's that?

Mark it.

Got a little noise out there. Wanna hold on?

Let's, let's do it.

OK.

Colonel Black, what was that line that sorta separated you from an Adrienne or a Tony in terms of the fact that they went into the administration building and you didn't?

Well, I think we were all operating [sighs] at that point in, in terms of principle, and those people who made the decision to participate in the organizations and those of us who didn't had to operate in terms of our own principles. I felt very certain and confident about the decision I made and that being the right decision, that taking over the administration building or the president's office was not the solution to the problem. I'm not so sure people who were involved were as certain that they were doing the right thing, but they were risk-takers. And I think as a result, the university has benefited from its experience in the si—late '60s.

Cut.

You don't want that benefit.

We don't want that.

[laughs]

OK.

I want you to do it again, but I don't want that part.

OK.

OK.

One more time.

You cut?

Yeah.

Mark it.

Wait. OK.

What was that line that had Tony and Adrienne go into the administration building and kept you out?

Well, I think the difference in why people decided one way or another as to what to do about the takeover was a function of what you thought the right option was for getting the administration to act. I did not personally believe that that was the best way to accomplish the goals. Therefore, I felt fairly certain I was doin' the right thing by not participating in the takeover of the administration building. When was that? March of '68. I think those who made the decision to participate maybe were not as firm in their belief that that was the right thing, but I think by that point they felt that the options had disappeared and therefore they were leaders of this organizations, they were going to continue it until its logical conclusion. I just felt that that wasn't the way I saw the, the solution ever being worked out. Confrontational politics, to me, was not the answer.

Good. Let's cut.