THIS IS UH SOUND ROLL 59 ON CAMERA ROLL 120 BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X -- SHOW NUMBER 800.

Q: When do you first see Malcolm at a street corner rally and what do you think, what is your impression of him?

educating our own children uh simply um not uh fighting to become a part of this country at all but going our own separate way and doing for self, going for self 'cause uh the thing was then. And I was just really excited about checking this out. Um, I think as BH 5157 a ... as a teenager it was also ... I mean I was probably about thirteen years old and every thirteen year old wants to break away from his or her parents and there standards ... so this was really a way to do it -- to break away from the colored folks in my family and go BH 5187 out and be black. Uh, so I went to a rally um [5191 I think [what I was most struck by um immediately was the magnitude of it. Um, I can't tell you exactly how many people there were in the street but it seemed like BH 5214 thousands, filling a few blocks, a few New York City blocks um on Lenox Avenue. You know the housing development there, so it wasn't just the people standing on the street formally attending the rally but also hundreds, thousands of people in this buildings uh surrounding the area uh, looking out the windows, BH 5249 watching from the playground.]]5251 Uh, so the I ... it's safe to say probably that almost everybody uh within a three or four-block radius um of the rally platform was really tuned in to the rally and [you could feel the

energy um in the street and [[5284 Malcolm probably talked for hours um in the hot sun uh, nobody ever took a break, nobody walked away, uh, people stayed three, BH 5303 four hours completely wrapped up in everything that he was talking about and he could cover uh an incredible list of topics A through Z um, back and forth um and you never got bored,] uh, you never got BH 5331 disinterested, um everybody really stayed with him. He knew how to hold on to uh, to the crowd]5335 and hold on to me clearly. I was just as wrapped up in it as um, as anybody else.]

Q: What attraction to you had the speaker, what is he doing up there?

knowledge uh was uh clearly very striking. His power as a speaker um was probably the other thing that was really captivating. Um, he was strong, magnetic, um BH 5458 full of a very intense kind of energy, not wild ranting and raving um. In fact, he used to um be very critical of people who uh gave ranting and raving rabble- rousing kind of speeches. Uh, he you know prided himself on his logic but but the um, the intensity and BH 5489 the energy that came through um in those speeches was a big part of uh what made the impact of um uh of his delivery. And you had to be impressed with his stamina...to go at it for hours week after week. Uh, sometimes rallies, um and other kinds of events backto- back straight through the day uh he could go BH 5539 nonstop uh in a way that uh just seems superhuman. Uh, and that all came through in his speeches.

Q: And what did you find the reaction of the crowd to be when he was speaking?

listening to one of his speeches. You would uh think, BH 5599 think very deeply, cry, feel rage uh, feel ready for action, ready to think some more and keep going round and round and round um in, in that cycle just in uh in span of uh ... of a few minutes it would seem uh in listening to uh ... to one of his speeches.] [I don't think Pull BH 5622 I've ever known another speaker uh as ... as captivating uh as as Malcolm and and I've certainly never seen one that could hold a crowd um with such control uh for such a long span of time uh as Malcolm could. And I eh I've seen him uh make men cry uh men and strong women ... um, seen him bring a crowd to the point of wanting to riot uh and pull 'em back from the edge BH 5686 very quickly. Um, and he could almost play them uh move them back and forth uh dancing close to the edge um but with just incredible control.]]5703

Q: You mentioned too that there is somebody on your block who joins the Nation and you have a discussion and debate with him because you were an integrationist at that point?

I think his name was ... I knew him as Rocky and I don't remember what his uh name actually was. Um [[5738Rocky lived on my block from a large family and I think uh uh he and his sisters and brothers have been friends of uh my family uh for a number of years. We'd all lived on BH 5761 that block together and suddenly Rocky began looking different. Um, in suit and tie, um close-cropped haircut, um very businesslike uh almost militaristic. Uh, clearly something very different had happened to Rocky and he and I would get into discussions on Saturday afternoons. Um, and we argued a lot about um the future, um black people in the United States with um ... and it al-, often boiled down to integration versus separation. And I was always talking about integrating schools uh integrating restaurants, uh BH 5828 integrating factories and Rocky would challenge me, why not uh build and operate our own schools, our own factories, our restaurants, um, I would use the example of the Montgomery Bus Boycott as a prime example of a black community united uh forcing the BH 5862 white power structure to change the rules. Um, and then integrating um, into a new process -- wonderful success. Rocky said a total failure because after all of that organizing and coming together, what the

community should have done was to buy the bus company or begin its own. Um, and that certainly gave me pause um, and uh, and a lot of new things to think about.] Um, so Rocky eventually um got me interested enough to uh ... I went from discussions with him to reading Muhammad Speaks newspaper to um eventually going to hear Malcolm uh at a rally.]5933 It didn't uh initially pull me away from um the political activities BH 5943 that I was uh, was involved in at that point but my ... but it clearly influenced uh my perspective and my thinking about what I was doing

Harlem hospital, I grew up and still lived just a couple blocks away from that and they were gonna build a new building there -- something the community had wanted for a long time. Um and certainly we needed but I think virtually all of the workers at the construction site were white -- all of them were BH 6075 white and um, the community was really incensed about that] and was demanding um integration of the workforce from the ground-breaking right on through the actual operation of the hospital. Um, [and [I was Pull still in high school but I would go out to that BH 6107 construction site every morning at about six o'clock, demonstrate for a couple a hours and then uh jump on a bus to go across town to uh my High School of Music BH 6129 and Art.] Um, [one morning] I was there and I think the uh, our goal was to shut down the construction site and we had done. Uh, we had not only a picket line but actually people laying down in the street uh to stop the uh trucks from going into the site -- stopping the cement trucks. And it was my turn to lay down in front of um the constru-, the uh trucks, to keep them from going onto the site. And [I was sitting down on the side walk ready to lay down and May actually had BH 6178 already been laying down on the ground and um I knew

that there was some buzzing kind of in the area, something was going on across the street and I wasn't sure exactly what it was and in a little while we BH 6202 realized that Malcolm had come to watch the demonstration and he was standing across the street.]]6207 Um, so I'm sitting there on the ground and a person that I was also meeting for the first time became a very important person in my life -- James Shabbaz. Uh, he was then James 67 X. James was with Malcolm and Malcolm apparently sent him across the street to BH 6241 talk to me. And uh [[6241 I'm on the ground and James leans Pull over and says to me uh, "Sister the Minister would like to speak with you." And I said, "Then he'll have to come over here. I'm not getting up."] And he said, "Uh, sister if you would just get up for a few minutes and come across the street uh with me the Minister would just like to talk to you for a few minutes and then you can go back and do whatever you want to do." And I said, "I'm not getting up from this spot. I've got a duty to lay here and keep these trucks from uh, from BH 6293 rolling. James went back across the street and he came back again and that went on for a little while. And uh eventually I did [when my shift changed, and I got relieved by another demonstrator. I went across

the street to talk to him. And this was, I think probably a scene that's impossible to um to depict um accurately now but um for a fourteen-year-old teenager passionately committed to uh this kind of demonstration and activity uh to be confronting and be confronted by Malcolm X] -- we had quite an argument that morning.] Um, and he tried to explain to me what was wrong with my laying down on the ground in front of the cement truck. And I was trying to convince him um of uh the rightness um of of what I was doing and BH 6393 how fearless I was um about that construction uh truck and and the workers um, [I was you know putting Pull my body on the line um for the cause. And Malcolm said, "but that's because you don't really believe that that truck would run over you." Um, and I realized that I didn't.] I mean that was uh I'd been pushed by police uh, had things thrown at me by angry whites on demonstrations in the South but I clearly didn't believe that anybody would actually run over me with a truck. Um, Malcolm posed that as a possibility uh and he said, [I talked about what we were doing in BH 6463 appealing to the moral conscience of the truckdriver um by laying our bodies on the line in front of that truck. And Malcolm said, "but that's because you think

he has a moral conscience. Um, something that you ought to question given the history of what white people in this country have done to black people.) Uh, if these are people who could uh lynch black people, murder black children, burn down churches uh starve people, um enslave people, [why couldn't they run over somebody with the truck?" And he said, "Oh they'd say BH 6536 it was an accident. He'd say oops! My foot slipped. But you'd be just as dead uh from an accident as you would be had it been done on purpose."]]6550 Um, and it was quite a conversation and admittedly I'd ever thought about um that kind of thing. Um I'd never put two and BH 6566 two together in the context of black people and white people at that point in time. Um, [[6577 and when he left and Pull I turned around to um, to go back across the street, um to the demonstration, I went back and I got on the picket line but I never laid down in the street in front of a truck again.]]6598 Um ...

Q: Did he clearly also enjoy the debate and did you?

Oh, I ... I'm certain I, I guess what ... the thing that BH 6611 stayed with me longest was um the fun of the debate. I enjoyed it immensely obviously. But I knew that he

enjoyed it. Um, that Malcolm enjoyed that debate as well. I think people didn't often debate him like that. Uh, certainly not a teenager. Um, and I think he had fun with it um and we became fast friends uh and frequent debaters um after that uh he would ... I would uh go to the restaurant, the Temple Number 7 Restaurant. Uh, I began going to meetings at the BH 6684 temple. Uh, and he would sort of seek me out after meetings uh or I'd seek him out and he always made himself available. Um, which I ... which was . somehow extraordinary I ... I think. Um, [[6703I don't know many -Pull leaders in business and government um, in civil rights organizations who make themselves available uh to ordinary people and ... and certainly uh not to teenagers um in that way -- real conversation, um, not patronizing um, but real solid debate and argument, philosophical and political discussion um. BH 6748 He was always able to do that. Um, and I always felt respected. I always felt challenged. I ... I came away from those meetings uh learning something, knowing something new. Um, and ... and I always sort of thought that he uh got something new or learned something from me too. And he was always fast to um, uh to say that, to admit that.]]6783 He did great things

for my self-esteem. Um, but he was incredibly um BH 6805 accessible uh and available and just a great person to talk with about all kinds of things. Uh, and I think that's probably a side of Malcolm that most people don't know.

Q: Now when you start going to the mosque how does it strain your relationship with black and white folks in SNCC.

Um, they had a hard time with that. What really surprised me, however, was um how much of a hard time a number of black people in SNCC at that point ...

Q: We try and um keep track of it.

[MISC] OK.

ONE TWO, ONE TWO, ONE TWO. THIS WILL BE CAMERA ROLL 122 ON SOUND ROLL 60-- CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH MS. RAHMAN - R-A-H-M-A-N -- BEEP BEEP

MARKER -- THREE

Q: OK, if you can pick back up with um the reaction of black folks in in SNCC?

southern town. I-it's like carrying a BH 7644 Montgomery a few steps further in another direction. Uh, [if you're in a town and you're organizing folks and uh people coalesce uh around the issue of doing something to improve life for the black community, you get 'em completely organized, then it's sort of a choice, which road do BH 7691 they take um, as an organized body. Uh, the road to integration? Or um the road to black empowerment and going for self. Um, so Malcolm was a threat. He was uh clearly pointing the way down a road that was different uh from the road where most SNIK people were uh were leading. Um, so I took a lot of flack uh from people in SNIK um about my involvement uh with Malcolm]]7738 but um ...

Q: Did it strain your personal relationships?

white friends at ... at that point. Um, and it was really just a few years more until BH 7783 people from SNIK moved uh to a different position. Uh, so that interestingly uh in the last year of Malcolm's life there were other people from SNIK coming to the rallies at the Audubon Ballroom and um uh certainly a lot of SNIK folks came to the funeral. Uh, so there was real movement on Malcolm's and ... and on the part of people uh in SNIK, black and white uh w-w-we all we-, found some BH 7827 common ground an-and wound up there together.

Q: If you could think of um isolating Malcolm just one moment in time, could you just describe him? How would you describe him if I never knew him?

his intelligence um that was just uh phenomenal. Um, I think he was probably the BH 7908 most well-read person I've ever known.]7910 Uh, he had a fantastic memory 'cause he held on to things. Even the most minor facts and figures that he read God knows where, he'd hold on to them uh and and I certainly knew that more than most people because one of my jobs for him during the brief period of time when we really did have an employer-employee relationship um one of my jobs was to keep BH 7949 newspaper clippings for him. I would read uh seven or eight daily newspapers. Um, at that point New York City had about seven or dailies. I read them all and a number of weekly newspapers and magazines and I would cut out articles um that had information about things that Malcolm might wanna know and be able to use in speeches. Um, so I kept the newspaper files and I couldn't remember all of those things but he would BH 7997 read a clipping once and remember it.

BEEPING SOUND -- OUR BEEPER --

Q: That's OK.

SPEEDING -- MARK IT -- FOUR

Q: OK, so if you could start with your career.

article on that two weeks ago, I think it was on a Sunday and it said, X Y and Z," he would BH 8092 remember all of this detail. It sort of didn't make any difference whether I had it in the files or not. He ... he'd remember it.] Um, so he ... he had a phenomenal memory,]8105 more than the basic intelligence um, the knowledge from readng and the memory was his ability to synthesize and analyze all of that -- put it together, uh with some BH 8133 meaning, um, uh, some new way of looking at the facts, um there have been, believe me many many times um over the years since his death um when I've seen, read about or experienced, we have experienced um any number of different things in this country uh or um as a people and um, and I miss him. Uh, I miss knowing what he would say um about this situation. How he would analyze it. What his reading would be. What his take would be on it. And I also know, I've heard BH 8206 some people say um, we know what Malcolm would have said about this. And I say, "No you don't." Um, to say that is to um freeze him um in a point in time and a set of

opinions that uh in a way that's completely antithetical to him. [[8239 Malcolm's ideas were BH 8240 not canned. Uh, they didn't just come automatically uh in in a knee-jerk kind of response. Uh, they were alive and evolving um and and really being drawn from um a situation and and a knowledge-base. And so it ... it really is impossible to predict what he would have said um about any particular situation or or occurrence um today.]]8286 Um, and actually we know from when he BH 8291 was alive uh where he changed his opinion, uh where he moved um on the spectrum ...

Q: I'll get to that ...

Q: Let me ask you -- how did ... why did you join the Nation? What attracted you?

trusted Malcolm. Uh, it couldn't be all bad if he was there.] Um, it had to be going some BH 8350 place um if uh, if he was was at the forefront. Um, there were clearly things that I didn't understand and some things that I didn't believe um in the um, the philosophy and rhetoric of the Nation of Islam at that time. Uh, but Malcolm was there and Malcolm was a leader, so how far off base could it be um, to ... to me it uh that, that was the important for me um at that time.]8394 My BH 8397 experience with the Nation was uh ... was short-lived um, my experience as a ... as a formal member um, I attended meetings and rallies um for a long period of time before I actually joined uh and when I did join of course it was um less than a year away from Malcolm's being expelled um and I was expelled along with him so it was a relatively short experience as a formal BH 8443 member. Um, but it was an important milestone um in my life, nonetheless.

Q: What did it give you? I mean what did the nation give you?

DID YOU ROLL OUT?

CAMERA ROLL 123 ON SOUND ROLL 60 CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW

MARK -- FIVE

Q: So if you can describe the Birmingham bombing?

OK, MARKER

Q: How do you describe the Birmingham rally?

immediately sadness, rage, confusion and then I gotta hear what Malcolm says about it. Um, BH 8670 and I got to the temple uh right away and it was packed. Um, an hour before the meeting there were crowds of people there,] um, and I think it was probably one of those days when Malcolm spoke for hours and hours and hours um and he talked about um killing children and what that said about a people -- people who would kill children.]8711 Uh, he talked about BH 8715 the um the irony of the Civil Rights Movement and these children studying nonviolence, lesson on loving the enemy um and being killed uh in in the midst of um of that experience. Uh, he talked about all of the bombings and fires uh going on in the South and the fact that none of the uh Temples uh that were part of the Nation of Islam uh had ever been touched and we had temples in Southern Cities uh including Birmingham um and what that said about uh black people who BH 8777 took a different position um and ...and I guess struck som fear in the hearts of um, uh of white people. Um, [[8793 the temple would always be packed uh on days like that.

Membership would increase. I don't know that uh that those people all stayed but they certainly came out on those days and they joined um and uh whether they stayed or not BH 8821 they absorbed uh some of Malcolm's uh anger and ... and his perspective uh on things so he had a really far-reaching impact uh on on lots of people particularly around uh instances uh like that.]]8843

Q: Did you ever feel that the Nation was containing your desire for activism?

Q: If you tell me what it was?

the ... of the philosophy and the focus of the Nation of Islam. That was really a ... a BH 8812 tremendous struggle for me personally. I was an activist, uh and I was a teenager. Um, I was ready to go out and turned the world upside down, um, but that wasn't the program in the Nation of Islam and particularly not for a young woman. Um, and that was uh ... that was a real struggle for me. I was in the earliest days uh when I first started BH 8952 going to Malcolm's rallies uh and to Temple Number 7, I was still somewhat involved in SNIK and lots of other organizations in the Harlem community. I went everywhere to all kinds of meetings. I knew everybody. I was in ... I read everything. I was involved in lots of stuff and the ... but the Nation's ideas were that, was that some of this was not fitting for a young woman. Uh, and certainly not for a young Muslim woman. Um, and actually that may have ... was probably BH 9002 one of the things that um uh delayed my formally joining the Nation. Um, and Malcolm and I had conversations about that and I also think it was something that um, that he had

some feelings about. Uh, I don't think he BH 9029 quite believed uh that women should be uh kept in the background um in the same way uh that many other people in the Nation believe. Uh, and I also didn't think even then that he was as opposed to activism, political, social um, as ... as uh, um, as the philosophy of the ... of the Nation of Islam uh dictated. So I think that was probably a struggle for BH 9024 him too. It certainly was a big struggle for me.

Q: Can you talk also about how the ... the March on Washington (unintel)

YOU HAVE ANOTHER PLANE HERE ...

Q: ... OK, uh the March on Washington, the whole thing about the March and the (unintel) and then going down and coming back up.

August 1963,]9118 um I was still involved with a lot of people from SNIK and with uh Projects BH 9131 in the Harlem community and because of that involvement I was sort of in on the earliest plans for the March on Washington. Um, when we had originally talked about bringing the city, bringing the whole district uh uh to a stop, uh tying up the airports, uh, I don't know that I would have laid down on the runways and we were gonna tie up the BH 9120 airports, uh, try ... tie up the uh trains' movement, uh in Washington um, uh sit in at the White House and the Capital -- bring the entire city um to a halt. [[9180 The original plan was not just for a peaceful march um, you know and picnic by the reflecting pool. Uh, it was for, you know real civil disobedience um, in the District of Columbia. Um, obviously as we all know that plan changed uh over time but I was sort of still moving back and forth (cough) between these two worlds so I ... I BH 9227 had told Malcolm a lot about what the original plan was and kept him uh filled-in as the plan changed and evolved into the kind of march that we eventually um had.]9247 Um, I

had at that point already applied for my X -- to formally join the Nation of Islam. And BH 9261 um, I was really torn about whether or not to ... I should go to Washington, whether or not I could go to Washington. Malcolm had announced that the Messenger had forbidden any of his followers to go to Washington. And I asked him what that meant. I asked Malcolm if what that meant in terms of me personally, whether or not I could go to BH 9296 Washington. And um he said the Messenger has prohibited any of his followers from going to Washington. And I said, technically I'm not a follower yet. I don't have my X. And Malcolm said, the Messenger has prohibited any of his followers from going to Washington. It was basically you decided whether or not you consider yourself a follower uh, make your own decision whether you're a follower formally or not and do what you think is right. So I went to Washington. BH 9352 Um, later found out obviously that Malcolm went to Washington too. Um, [9362 one of the things that I got was not only uh, just experience of seeing what happened in

Washington first hand, contrasting it with BH 9378 what had originally been planned, uh, but I also got a copy of John Lewis' speech uh, the one that uh John uh, who was uh, John was Chairman of SNIK at that time and was scheduled to speak at the ... the rally at the March on Washington but had written a speech that many people considered inflammatory, and uh, John was forbidden to BH 9417 um give his original. Well, I had a copy of John's original speech because I was still somewhat a part of SNIK, um, so it was a real coup for me to run back to New York and uh give Malcolm this last piece of proof that the uh original intent and plan for the March had been completely subverted um by giving him a copy of uh, of this speech.]9456 And um, so he made that the focus of one of his Saturday rallies, uh, in Harlem and, in fact, asked me to read John's original speech at the rally, so we could show the crowd um what had been BH 9478 done and how uh the Movement had been subverted uh and the black community had been hoodwinked uh according to Malcolm's analysis of what happened.

Q: Now how did ...

WE ROLLED OUT ...

Q: Good, OK, perfect, 'cause I'm gonna ask you to do the conversation you have when he tells you ....

THIS IS BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X -- PROJECT 800 -- CAMERA ROLL 124 ON SOUND ROLL 61 -- CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH AMINA RAHMAN

Q: .... talking about ...

SPEED--MARK IT--SEVEN

Q: OK, if you can give a sense of uh Malcolm's asking you to read the speech and how astonished you are?

rally that Saturday and um, he said he wanted me to read John's speech at the rally]0060 and I CA 0063 was excited about the prospect of that obviously but really puzzled uh at this kind of contradiction. [0077 Women from the Nation of Islam were never in the street during the rallies. Uh, they would turn out in some numbers, uh but stay in the temple that day on the second floor watching the rally from the windows. Um, the people standing in the CA 0111 street would be male members of the temple and just the general public male and female. Um, Malcolm and other ministers would be sitting on the platform uh at the rally but there were never any women sitting up there.]0134 So I think I...I looked very confused and puzzled. Uh, I'm not a good problem-solver and I was trying to figure out how am I gonna read this speech to the crowd? Am I gonna do it from a window in the temple? Uh, are they going to escort me through the crowd to the CA 0160 platform at some point in the middle of the rally and then take me back upstairs? I couldn't figure this out. And Malcolm said, "No, of course you're gonna sit on the

platform with me through the rally. Get up and read your speech and then just sit CA 0190 there." So I did [0194 that that Saturday and uh it really added something...I had remember I had gone to some of those rallies and stood in the crowd when I was not a member of the temple um, I had later gone to the rallies and stood upstairs in the temple and watched the rallies out the window with the rest of CA 0117 the women. [Sitting on that platform with Malcolm was a completely different experience. For one thing to um be surrounded by that crowd, that sea um of, of people, um on the streets was quite a feeling um to watch Malcolm doing his speeches upclose uh was ...was quite an experience. To actually stand at the microphone and read this speech and I guess probably now I think the speech was somewhat inflammatory because [you could feel the energy of the crowd uh CA 0286 building with every line um of the speech, um and the... so the crowd is yelling and cheering, uh and urging you on, and then watching the women from the temple upstairs in scarves um at the windows sort of peeking

out from behind the curtain um, it was there were a lot of contradictions in that sort of. CA 0332 I mean I was one of those women but I was on the platform in the middle of that crowd um with Malcolm, with the minister, um and I knew I really didn't wanna be um in the window peeking out from behind the curtain. And I also knew that um despite what he said uh during lectures in the temple, Malcolm didn't think I should be uh upstairs behind the curtain either. He had invited me to um CA 0384 stand with him uh on the platform and speak at that rally]0389 uh and it became the first of of many such um you now dual-speaking engagements. Uh, for uh, for the two of us.

Q: And would you say ... wh-what would he say in the Mosque about the woman's role?

had done that primarily by um destroying black men. Um, not allowing uh the black man CA 0453 to um be a leader of his family, of his community, um, that a kind of matriarchy had been created uh where black women could work, earn money, uh assume leadership roles, um sort of uh take over the role uh of men. So Malcolm saw part of his mission, and part of the mission of the Nation of Islam to uh restore the black man um to his rightful CA 0500 place of leadership and restore the black woman to whatever the appropriate position was on a pedestal, somewhere um uh, I think. Uh, but certainly not in the forefront of uh any leadership or decision making um activity.]0530 Um, so he would talk about that uh in the temple uh he would admonish people individually for um uh violations of um of this kind of approach. I had an experience um a good example uh [I worked in the newspaper office, the Mohammed Speaks CA 0567 newspaper office, which doubled as the temple office and Malcolm's office. Um, a lot of days uh Saturdays and uh a number of days after school, I, I worked in the newspaper

office so one Saturday morning, I think, I arrived at the office, was going to get set- CA 0595 up at my desk. I needed the typewriter. And the typewriter was on a table and wanted it moved to my desk, the big electric typewriter. Well, Malcolm was there and several brothers were there, but they were talking, he was engaged in a heavy conversation with them and I didn't want to CA 0620 interrupt them, so I uh went over to the table and picked up the typewriter and moved it to the desk. So as I'm sort of in mid- movement, Malcolm turns to me and says, "Sister, you just insulted every brother in this room." And I said, "What did I do?" "You moved that typewriter instead of calling on a brother for help and allowing the brother to be a man, and you know taking your place as, as a woman who needs to rely on men to do things like that." Um, and I felt terrible, "Oh, I had done this awful thing to CA 0682 all of these men in this room! Little me, moving this typewriter!" Um, that was my one initial reaction. Another reaction that I felt at the same time was, it was not a big

deal to move this typewriter, uh and I had tried to explain to him the typewriter really CA 0708 wasn't as heavy as it looked, uh that he was engaged in conversation, I didn't want to interrupt what appeared to be an important uh discussion um, what I said, what I thought privately, and I think at some point later on, said to him, said I really didn't understand his choice in attacking me for CA 0743 moving the typewriter and not asking for help, and not attacking a brother for not getting up and taking the typewriter from me or offering to move it. Why was I in the wrong um, and actually I think part of his thinking and he later said something to me um about this was that um had he done it that way, that would have heaped more criticism and scorn um on this black man and clearly I could take it and handle it, um, and he would be making the point to them and me um uh just as effectively without making them feel even CA 0816 worse. Wasn't an argument that I bought then nor do I buy it now, but it was interesting to see how he looked at it. Um, I, I think that was a contradiction that he caught up

in, and I think it was one of those places where um [Malcolm believed something a little CA 0843 different, uh a bit more progressive uh than what the Nation allowed, and he was limited at that point to speaking about um uh things that were part of the Nation's um teaching and philosophy] because later on, [when we left the Nation, uh he clearly um changed a lot of those things and women played a major role in the organization of African American unity and Muslim Mosque Incorporated, the two groups that Malcolm set-up uh on his own. CA 0891 So, I don't think he believed a lot of what uh he was preaching in, in this regard anyway, while he was in the Nation.

Q: And do you, I mean was there was an attitude also ... ? OK. Was there an attitude at that time in the country, generally, I mean in terms of what, I mean, can you give me, give me confidence at this point?

black pride kind of running uh neck and neck um at that point, and I think there was a reaction to um um Mohnehan and the black matriarchy, um, uh kind of a, a, analysis, and uh so it sort of fit this idea about CA 0963 strengthening black men, strengthening the, the black family uh, and maybe giving black women a little relief, um, but we've moved past that.]

Q: Oh, that's good.

MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL ONE TWO FIVE. SPEEDING. MARK. EIGHT.

Q: OK. So if you can give me the sense of hear'-, being in the restaurant and hearing about Kennedy's assassination.

an experience. Uh, it was a Friday uh in November, I was cutting school.]1037 I think I CA 1040 may have been a junior or senior in high school, and I cut school that day um and uh had, [I was working in the newspaper office um, and I was, I went to a meeting with Malcolm in the restaurant, a little small meeting, just of some staff people from the temple, uh to talk about um a weekend of special activites that had been planned. We CA 1086 were going to have um a bizarre um, and a show, and Elijah Muhammad was coming to New York um to speak, and Town Hall had been um rented, the old Town Hall had been rented uh for Elijah Muhammad uh speech. And Malcolm was having a meeting uh to figure out where we were with ticket sales and travel arrangements for the messenger and the details of the activities for that weekend. 1129[ So [[we're sitting in the restaurant, drinking coffee, having this meeting, and the captain CA 1139 of the Mosque, uh Joseph, got a telephone call uh from his wife, and Joseph got up and went to a phone booth, took the call, and he came back to the table looking like visibly

shocked and he said uh, he said that his wife had just told him that uh Kennedy had been CA 1169 shot. Um, Malcolm sent somebody to get a radio out of the back and we plugged in the radio and listened and the um announcer was saying uh, "To repeat, we're confirming that the President has been shot in uh, in Dallas, Texas, and at this point we don't know how serious it is." Um, and Malcolm said, immediately, he said, "That devil is dead."]] CA 1214 Um, [I was, I mean shocked and astonishment aren't quite the words to measure it. Um, one thing it was a, a President being shot is not an everyday occurrence. The idea of a President being shot and killed, assassinated, is something that you read in History books, it doesn't actually happen in your lifetime. Uh, but there I was, November afternoon 1963 and the President has been shot and possibly killed. Um, it stirred up some things in me, wondered what, I mean, what does this mean, what's going to happen CA 1273 to the country.]]1273 Uh, is this the, the revolution? Is it here? Um, and I think I asked Malcolm that, you know. Um, and he

sort of, you know, threw a wet blanket on that. It didn't mean what I thought it meant um, CA 1298 and I said, my next question was, "Do you think somebody black did it?" And he said, "No. It's not the kind of thing that our people do." Um, and he had ideas about, you know, uh, um someone white with a particular political agenda, and the possibilities of conspiracies, I mean he jumped right to that point, way beyond what, you know, I as a CA 1334 relatively naive teenager, still at that point, uh could ever have uh, have surmised. But actually, surprisingly, he jumped right to what many people have come to think um over the years, uh did in fact surround the Kennedy assassination. Uh the, [1357 the biggest thing was that [he was very concerned about what this meant to the Nation of Islam. Um, how he would respond, how the Nation would respond, um and he was, I think, very much aware of the need to be careful. Kennedy was CA 1385 um, the President, and he was a popular President. Um, he was um highly regarded and loved in the black community, and Malcolm had some genuine concerns. It was one thing to

be in a different political position from other Civil Rights leaders and to have that CA 1414 debate going back and forth. To be in a position where people could perceive you as being uh in opposition to the President who was now dead, could be a dangerous ]1432 um position politically, at least for a period of time, and um, we le', and, and Malcolm I think was very much aware of this.] We left the restaurant, restaurant, we were sitting, CA 1454 we were sitting in the restaurant which had a huge plate glass window, um people always walk past this restaurant and stared in to see if they could see Malcolm, to see what kinds of people frequented this restaurant, what these Muslims looked like, uh, so you were kind of on display in that restaurant, and Malcolm wanted to leave the restaurant immediately. Um, we went two blocks away to the newspaper office uh where uh he could go into the office space in the back, and not be CA 1509 in public view, 1510[ and he called um Chicago, [he called Elijah Muhammad, um, and sort of discuss what are our response ought to be. And he came out of the room, I, I actually I

can't say positively that he actually talked to Elijah Muhammad. He said he called CA 1538 Chicago and he had gotten some instructions, and he gathered us all around and said that um if the press or anyone else asks for, asks how we felt about the Kennedy assassination, what our response was, uh we were to say we were shocked, which we all certainly were. Um, and leave it at that.]]1571 Um, and I remember thinking that that made sense, but also CA 1587 wondering if Malcolm could just uh be content to say he was shocked. Um, and he looked very, he just, he looked extremely worried. Uh he then, he got on the telephone and directed um a couple of other officials to make telephone calls to ministers in Mosque, in temples uh all along the East Coast, um, advised, giving them the same advice and information. That this was all we were to say. Um, and then he left. Went home. Um, that evening, it was a Friday, and uh, on Friday nights, eight o'clock, there was the CA 1660 regular um temple meeting. It was again, just as the uh Sunday meeting with the Birmingham bombing, uh [[1671the Friday night of

Kennedy's assassination uh the temple was packed. Um, standing room only. People were CA 1687 standing not only in the aisles in the temple, uh but outside in the hall. Uh, at one point, there was a line down the stairs into the street of people waiting to get in.] Um, Malcolm talked that night for hours. Um, i'-, i'-, and he did in his uh skillful way he clearly, [his whole talk was about the CA 1732 Kennedy assassination, but I don't think he ever mentioned the name Kennedy once. Uh, he talked about pharaoh, um um you know, a lot of biblical references, um, but I think obviously everybody in the room knew that he was uh, that he was talking about Kennedy.]1759 It did sort of foreshadow uh what he would do later in the um speech on Decem'-, Sunday, December first, um, at um at Town Hall. Um, 1783[ I think he probably realized, however, from the way he talked Saturday, uh, uh that Friday night, that um he had a lot to say about this assassination. [There was a lot of CA 1804 stuff in there bubbling over that uh that needed to come out. His political analysis of uh what the assassination might mean for

this country. Uh, but of course he had been directed not to talk about the Kennedy CA 1824 assassination and not to say anymore than that he was shocked. So how was he going to handle this? Wha'-, what he did was something that he never did before, which was to have a prepared speech. He had things typed up on paper, what he intended to say, ]1851 um, at Town Hall, he had tried to cancel Town Hall, um we had, but we had paid the rental CA 1866 for Elijah Muhammad to speak there, um, and they wouldn't refund the money. And there, we couldn't cancel at that late date. And there had been some discussion about whether or not to just write it off as a financial loss. Malcolm was opposed to doing that. We had paid money and we should use the place. Um, [[1896 but he was clearly nervous about what he might say. [He spoke from a prepared speech, um, never specifically mentioned Kennedy, um, but then as if courting disaster, uh he opened the floor up to questions. Huh, and CA 1927 obviously you couldn't have a prepared text for questions. Um, uh and the question came And I don't remember e'-, exactly what the

question was and I don't even remember that anyone had specifically asked him about the assassination, but it was clearly there, almost like stuck in his throat. He had to CA 1957 say it, something had to come out.]]1958 Um, and he built up to it.] He talked about um, he talked about the death of LaMumba in the Congo ...

CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH AMINA RAHMAN ON SOUND ROLL ON'-, UH SIXTY-TWO ON CAMERA ROLL ONE TWENTY-SIX. THIS IS CAMERA ROLL ONE TWENTY-SIX COMING UP PLEASE.

Q: So question and answer period.

Um, and how that compared to what had just happened to Kennedy. And he said, "Patrice CA 2599 La LuMumba died um and his wife became a widow. His children were orphaned at, at a young age. His people had their leader cut down um, and, and floundered for a while. Um, and the US government had been involved in doing that. Um, the leader of uh South Vietnam um, I've forgotten his name, was uh assassinated. His wife became a widow, his children were CA 2658 left orphaned, um his people um had their leader struck down, and he went through a string of these, always winding up with the involvement of the United States government in that. So that the final point that when you do those kinds of things all around the world, uh you set up a situation, an atmosphere, an environment uh in the world. And sooner or later, those chickens come home to roost.]2704 They have to. Um, it's almost the scientific certainty.] Um, uh [2714 of course the CA 2716 newspaper headlines didn't report the whole litany. They just had that final line uh about the chickens coming home to roost, and said that was Malcolm's characterization of

the Kennedy assassination. ]2734 But that was only partially true. Malcolm's analysis had been CA 2745 a much longer one um about certain international political activities, and he was saying that that was um, uh what had come back to visit the United States] um [2767 but it didn't make any difference. The headlines uh were there, and the characterization of his speech was there, and he was in real hot water uh in the Nation of Islam. [ He had done exactly what he and Elijah Muhammad had cautioned everybody not to do. He had made a substantial comment on uh Kennedy's CA 2800 assassination in a way that um, you know, put the Nation of Islam um in trouble um, so he had to pay for that.] And he was um, first silenced, um and then suspended.]2822

Q: Now, can you talk um first about, before you go on to the silencing um, was his attitude about that, about the Kennedy assassination, was that also true within some segments of the black community anyway? I mean that sense that, yeah, the government

does this and, well do you think his analysis was exceptional?

Q: OK. Talk about also the silencing. Um, now they tell him not to talk and then you talk about him being in, at the Mosque and talking for two hours, after he talks for a

while and then, so if you can maybe associate that.

responsible for temple business. Um, so [3053 he still was the minister of the temple and he CA 3056 was conducting temple business, he wasn't speaking publicly. ]]3061 Um, we had a succession of guest ministers...

Q: Um, I'm sorry, before you go into that, does he ever talk, um at these pri'-, the Nation um uh meetings about his silencing? And what does he say about it?

Q: So doesn't also really talk about being reprimanded by as a father does his son, or something?

Q: Um, OK, now go ahead now to the suspension, and how you um realized that something's going on. And you also mentioned, by the way, uh the Farrakhan speaking, you mentioned your friend, June, and she give you a hint that something's about to happen.

WE ROLLED OUT. CHANGE.

MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL ONE TWENTY-EIGHT ON SOUND ROLL SIXTY-TWO. OH, ONE TWENTY-SEVEN, FORGIVE ME.

Q: So Louis starts talking.

and sisters, pushed him up there. And when you push somebody up that high like that, CA 3592 Allah's got to knock him down to prove to you that he alone is God.]3599 Um, so it was, it was quite an experience. An'-, an'-, I mean to get hit with this all in, in one day. Malcolm was gone. Um, certainly somebody that most people in that temple loved and trusted. Um, he, we were being told he had also been very wrong, and had done something CA 3635 terrible, that we couldn't be told in detail what it was, um, and we shared in the blame and responsibility um for all of the above. That was a lot to take.] Um, and I think a lot of people left there very uh confused and puzzled, um, I'm, I'm certain others like myself were dying to talk to Malcolm in person and get his side of the, uh of the story. Uh, [3681but [then [we went through weeks and months of this um internal uh struggle and warfare uh as people talked to Malcolm, CA 3698 began hearing another version of the story. Uh, what was really happening. Um, and, and people took sides. And there were families that split. Uh, there were friends that no

longer spoke to one another.] Uh, as people decided to go with Malcolm or remain um loyal CA 3729 to Elijah Muhammad and the, and the Nation of Islam. ]3731 [Most people I think who were formal members of the Nation of Islam didn't run right out to join Malcolm. Um, but a, an important handful did. I think more importantly, uh, 3757[ there are people outside of the Nation of Islam who loved Malcolm, who had respect for the Nation of Islam, in part, because of what in p'-, in large part, because of Malcolm and his portrayal of the Nation. So what the Nation lost during those years was not uh membership, it wasn't an immediate loss of membership, uh but there was a, a loss of future membership over the years that I don't think the Nation ever captured. There were people who simply never went in that direction because Malcolm wasn't CA 3808 there.]]3809

Q: So, following the script, what happens um within the Nation and then what happens in the whole community?

Elijah Muhammad was uh, a somebody in a picture on the wall. Someone whose name was mentioned but Harlem didn't know him, they CA 3937 knew Malcolm and loved Malcolm, and remained loyal to Malcolm uh long after that split. I think the, while people didn't run out of the Nation in droves to join Malcolm, uh the droves of people who would have gone into the Nation uh because of Malcolm um, uh dwindled, uh so the Nation lost future membership although there was no immediate short-term impact on its current membership at that CA 3982 point.]3981

Q: Now if you can talk also about the uh what happens when you then go to Savior's Day, for example in sixty-four.

Q: I think before you go to that, tell me how hard it was for you to starry in the Nation. I mean here you are, your family, it's like a family, your also close to

Malcolm, and then all these suspicions, mainly all around you.

Nation.] Lost my job in the newspaper office...

Q: Excuse me, could you tell me how that happened?

Q: I'm sorry. If you could begin and just mention the classes were within the Nation. So...

later, I went out to teach one of the classes uh at the Nation. We had a whole string of CA 4232 classes for women on Thursday nights and everything from reading and math to cooking and, and sewing. Um, we had a letter writing class to help people through the process of joining the Nation. Um, I used to teach the letter writing class. Um, someone else was teaching my class when I came out on a Tuesday night. Um, I think probably one of CA 4271 the most embarrassing um uh, in part you didn't get paid for a lot of these jobs, but you got certain privileges, and I, one of the privileges was um not having to pay for meals in the restaurant, within some reason. I went out to the restaurant to eat and uh signed my check, um, and the waiter brought it back to me and said, "I'm sorry, sister, you'll have to pay for this." Um, so [4316 in a very short period of time, um, I got the message that uh uh because I had a CA 4328 relationship to Malcolm uh I was under suspicion and I was being somewhat cut off and isolated for a period of time until uh my loyalty um to uh the Nation and Elijah

Muhammad could be um, you know, verified. Um, but I went to talk to Malcolm um this, I also wanted to hear his side of the story, and I think I, and really I wanted to ask him whether I should leave. Uh, quite and go join him in whatever he was doing. And, um and I said, "Tell me to quit and join you and I'm there." And he said, "I'm not going to tell you that. That's a decision that you'll CA 4399 have to make for yourself."]4398

Q: All right. If you could begin on talking about the fact that you ca'-, first called Louis X, and what he says, and then what happened.

Q: Yeah.

Q: I don't know, but yeah, because it's such a contrast.

out That's no more neutral than coming to stay at my house."

WE ROLLED OUT.

Q: OK.

AH, THIS IS BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X. SOUND ROLL 63 ON CAMERA ROLL 128.

MISC: Marker? Twelve.

Q: So, you- okay, oh, I'm sorry. Okay. So you called Malcolm.

Obviously Louis has a position on this. Ah, as Malcolm does. So, I called Louis back and CA 5106 I said I've th-thought about your invitation and I want to thank you, but I don't think your house is exactly neutral territory and ah, I'll either stay home or I'll find, something else to do. And he said, um, sister, you didn't arrive at that conclusion CA 5132 on your own. That's not you talking. Somebody else told you that. Someone um has influenced you and whoever that person is, ah, that's the devil and you should be ah wary of them. Ahm ... l eh, at- eh, initially, I said Oh my goodness, he knows I've been talking to to Malcolm, but I thought about it further. Obviously what Malcolm said was was ah logical. Um, and the there was a real CA 5184 contrast in my their responses to my dilemma.

Q: Yeah. Let me, let me- 'cause what what's not in at this time is the fact that he asked you to think for yourself about it.

Q: So if you could go back and just....

Q: Yeah. Um and actually just say that you- were talking to Malcolm. Start with the piece that you- you're talking to him.

say I've decided not to go to Boston; your house isn't exactly neutral territory, he CA 5285 really berated me. Um, for ah sort of backing out of this deal. Ah, he said you didn't arrive at that conclusion yourself. You've been talking to somebody who's influenced you ah and and that person, whoever it is, is the devil, is somebody evil. Um, you should really come to my house CA 5318 and let me help you think this through. Eh, it was a really contrast in uh in their ah responses.[[5327 Malcolm never asked me to leave the Nation. Ah, he in fact cautioned me to stay away from him. Ah, not to be identified with him, to think it through for myself, um, and arrive at my own conclusion and ah, do whatever I decided um was best for me.]]5359 Louis had clearly taken a very different kind of position of of attempting to influence me, although he appeared to talk against that. Um, obviously I I did make the decision ah to CA 5383 leave um the Nation of Islam. Um, not that Malcolm said anything, not that I was specifically following him. Ah, but the whole experience gave me um a picture of what

the Nation was about. Um, and its fear of truth. Ahm, that made me decide that eh that CA 5422 really was not something that I wanted to be identified um with or um or involved with. Ah, and Malcolm was uh courageous enough um to ah take that kind of step. Um and um, and so I followed him, although it it really did not feel like something I was doing for Malcolm or to follow Malcolm. A situation had been created ah in which Malcolm had encouraged me to think ... through for myself CA 5475 and um decide for myself what was the right thing to do. Um.

Q: Let me ask you this: when when you hear about the indiscretion, did Malcolm talk to you about that? The I'm sorry, um, Elijah Muhammad wives and children.

leave the Nation. I didn't hear those stories until quite some time later. And CA 5553 even when he told me, ah, it took him a long time to get the story out of his mouth and there was a real reluctance um to sort of put this kind of burden on me. Um, and and he did it, eh, sparingly over period of uh of ah two or three conversations. Ah, and I think sort of watched my reaction to it to see if I could take it. Ah, but it certainly was not something that he used to lure people away CA 5585 from the Nation.]5586

Q: When he talks about the indiscretions to you, does he say where he gets his information from?

Wallace Muhammad later explained to him what he was witnessing. That these were two women CA 5684 who um, eh said they ah had children that had been fathered by Elijah Muhammad and they were trying to sue him for child support. Um, so I guess basically he was telling me that he had witnessed some things and um and that Wallace Muhammad uh had interpreted ah for him what he had been witnessing and that Wallace had, in fact, taken him to um to meet these women and uh and see their children. I guess he was saying that Wallace had told him CA 5700 um this entire story.

Q: And, now, while you're in the Nation, do you see um, another potential for the Nation while you're in the Army. Do you see a potential for another kind of leadership? And do you see Malcolm as being maybe that?

Q: Okay, think about that for a second.

Q: Let me take you into something else.

Q: Um, while some people say, well, Malcolm didn't leave anything, didn't leave an organization, you know people weren't necessarily coming in droves to the um [? one syllable OAAU. Could you talk about the fact that they're not coming in droves, you know, and you- or that he maybe left something else.

today in nineteen uh you know, ninety two. [He is probably not as well understood today CA 5812 as um, as he could be. Um. But [I think he represented a different kind of leadership. Um, a different world view. Um, a different style and and and set of strategies, that helped us to become broader, um, than the African American community in any particular city. Ah, our our thinking of ourselves in the context of the world scene, um, our view CA 5865 of um of the United States and a need for this country even to sort of put itself in perspective um on the uh on the world stage. Ah, the idea that eh government is not absolutely right, ah, that people should challenge authority, come up with ah different ways of looking at things, form ah unique alliances and coalitions. A lot of the things that I think we now take very much for granted as part of the the political repertoire, um actually in the in the twentieth century we can sort of trace back CA 5924 to Malcolm. And I'm not saying that no one else before him ever thought of things in in those ways, but [in contemporary ah American

times in the African American community, um Malcolm is at the root. Um, and those things are the legacy that that he left behind.]]5950

Q: Okay. Let me ask you- where are you when you hear that he's been assassinated and what do you feel?

Q: Okay, we're going to have to stop here a second.

MISC: Change. BEEP

MISC: Mark. Thirteen.

Q: Can you give me a sense of ah ah where were you during the assassination?

help with. Um, I worked in Mississippi. Ah, all my SNCC friends are still there. I can CA 6169 go back to Mississippi and set up something for you to come and speak there. Um, so I went to Jackson, um and I was working with people in Snik and the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. I talked to Malcolm several times on the phone and we were talking about his coming to Mississippi.]6197 Um, and trying to sort of heal this rift ah CA 6204 between us. Ahm, and [6208 late that Sunday, ah, someone came into the Jackson Snik office and said um, I should turn on the radio; there was some something going on in New York that I should hear about. Um, and um, we got a news broadcast that said ah Malcolm had been shot um and was dead. [Sigh.] Um, it was obviously quite upsetting. Um, interesting I think, the Snik people had already moved to a different place, ah, so everybody was shocked and saddened. Um and ah, Jim Foreman ah came and talked to me um, took me to a back office CA 6283 somewhere to um sit and cry by myself. And people came in and ah we talked. Ah, somebody got a car. Somebody arranged an

airline ticket, um, it all happened very quickly, and um I was driven to the airport CA 6310 and flew back to New York.]6311 Remember I had a wait over in um Atlanta um, for at least an hour or so and people from the Atlanta Snik office um paged me at the airport, kept me on the phone in conversation um through that wait. Um, the rift um between Snik and uh uh and Malcolm or the the difference in political position was at that point completely gone, um, and there was just this CA 6363 common feeling of tremendous loss. Um, I came to New York, um. When I got to the airport in New York, I took a taxi. And um, I told the cab driver to take me to um a hundred and twenty-fifth street and Seventh Avenue, to the Theresa Hotel. I didn't live on a hundred and twenty-fifth street and Seventh Avenue! I didn't want to go directly home. I wanted to go to where our office had been. Malcolm had an office in the Theresa. Um. I think the office itself was locked. CA 6424 Ahm. I just stood in the lobby of the hotel for a while. I stood on the street in front of the hotel. Um, and just- the street felt

incredibly um empty. But it wasn't terribly late at night. It just- I felt the CA 6455 emptiness. I felt the loss. Ah, there on a hundred and twenty-fifth street and Seventh Avenue that um, eh street that had really been the territory he had sort of marked off for himself. And I think I walked around the street um late into the night um to key spots. I walked to a hundred and sixteen street and Lenox Avenue. Ah, to look at the CA 6494 temple with a kind of anger and rage, sadness. I walked back to a hundred and twenty-fifth street. People were standing around in the streets talking. The evening newspapers were out. I read ... all the dailies. Um, and ah eventually I went home. Eh but I really can't remember what time it was and I think I may well have just walked around the streets most of the night. Um, before going home, letting my family know I CA 6545 was back in the city. Um, but I didn't stay home much during those next few days.

Q: What was happening on the streets that night? What is the te- the sense in Harlem?

Q: Ah, did you go to the funeral?

volunteered the use of his church, although it was um an Islamic funeral ceremony. Um, I CA 6720 think the funeral was televised ah, as well, in fact. There was um, the body ah laid in state in a funeral parlor for several days. Ah crowds came from all around the Harlem community and people came from outside of New York ah to see the body. I know there were a lot of people from Snik who came up from Atlanta. Um to attend the funeral. So there- there was a reach much beyond um the CA 6763 Harlem community.

Q: Did you go to the funeral home first?

Q: What did you think about seeing his body in that way?

that the body was first um, put on view, I remember I went- I was at the funeral home um and um- took me a long time to- okay--

MISC: Three minutes or less.

MISC: Mark. Fourteen.

Q: If you can tell me about you were going to the funeral home and then what you feel when you see the body.

that energy and ah dynamism, ah, intelligence, ah, power was gone. Ahm, and all that remained was um was this ah ... really CA 6950 fragile looking, body at that point, um, empty body.]6953 Um. And I went back to the funeral home for few nights. I went in the afternoon. I went in the evening, I- every day really until the funeral. Um, but I didn't look at the body again. Um, I went to be with people with that family ah of people connected to Malcolm. Um, you know, to mourn and grieve together. But I couldn't look at the body again. Um. There were a couple of other .... cut it? Okay.

ONE THIRTY ON SOUND ROLL SIXTY-FOUR. ANO MARK. FIFTEEN.

Q: You can give me a sense of being at the funeral, and then the moment that most stands out for you.

ROLLING. SIXTEEN.

myself almost at some point that I should of been prepared for that. Um, he was doing CA 7756 things that brought danger, that carried danger uh with them, um and we just all should have been prepared for that, but um, I never was. Um, I don't think I ever thought I'd lose him. And although I only, [ I knew Malcolm, actually this was a relatively short spanned of time that I really had a close relationship with. Probably no more than two years. Um, but that was really two years of CA 7804 um almost seeing him everyday uh when he was in New York, um and having incredible conversations, a lot of shared experiences, um a lot of my life was shaped uh by him and around him, um, so it was a tremendous loss that I still feel. Um, I look at my watch I show up late somewhere and [I can hear Malcolm talking about not trusting a person who doesn't wear a watch and who is careless with time, um and he first said that to me when I was fourteen years old, and I CA 7868 hear it in my ear today like he's still there saying it. Um, so it was uh really an indelible mark on my life, and I do think on

the black community um, in general Um, but the death was death, he's dead. Um, and that was then and is now hard to take.]7909 Um, he's still alive in a lot of ways, um, but he's CA 7921 dead.]

Q: I want to shift just a moment and um, and ask you, you mentioned the warfare, was it very hard at that point when he splits between the Nation and say the OAAU, and was there a lot of internal conflict kind of going on?

SORRY, COULD YOU, UH I HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE CAMERA...

Q: Start again.

think it was as difficult for me personally um as it was for other people who were older, CA 7983 people who had been in the Nation of Islam for a longer period of time. Um, there were families that I saw um, uh torn apart. Um, there was violence um between the two factions. Um ...

Q: Could you talk about, I mean did you feel that in all of them?

good standing with the Mosque, a list that was always posted um in the um outer area CA 8090 leading to the temple. Um, and his, he went home and his wife said, "Choose. Um, Malcolm or the Nation and me." Um, and uh he chose Malcolm, and she threw all of his clothes out the window.]]8121 Um, uh that was uh but uh the, the split was hard.

Q: Could you also mention that within the context of suddenly coming in and seeing Betty's name on the list?

come uh to the temple for a few weeks beyond Malcolm uh expulsion uh until that night when CA 8213 her name was put on the list and she was also out. Um, it was quite a phenomenon that I don't think exists in other, many other religious groups that ostracism. But it's tremendously effective uh for keeping people in line. Uh, you've got to really believe in something strongly um, to uh allow yourself uh to be expelled and ostracized um in that way because it's final, until you renounce uh CA 8264 whatever it is you've gone off to follow. ]8265

Q: Thank you. Is there anything that you would say that we have not asked you?

Q: Thank you. OK. Cut.