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Interview with Gene Roberts, conducted by Blackside, Inc. on Malxolm X. Washington University Libraries, Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection.
THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF UH, WHY IS THIS SO HOT?
THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X, SHOW NUMBER EIGHT-HUNDRED, CAMERA ROLL ONE-SEVENTY-EIGHT ON SOUND ROLL EIGHTY-EIGHT. INTERVIEW WITH GENE ROBERTS.
UH, GENE ROBERTS IS WHO INFILTRATED
THE UH--
THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X SHOW EIGHT HUNDRED, CAMERA ROLL ONE- SEVENTY-EIGHT ON UH SOUND ROLL EIGHTY-EIGHT. INTERVIEW WITH GENE ROBERTS.
SPEEDING.
MARK IT.
ONE.
Q: Where I'm gonna start is, tell me why police assigned you to infiltrate Malcolm X's organization.
Well, the department had felt that, since the um--
Q: Can I can I start you again (unintel), and let me know that you're dealing with the police department.
OK. Well, the police felt, the police department felt that, since there was the break-up between uh Malcolm and uh Elijah, there would be violence, guns and whatever, so they wanted uh to get somebody in to uh to make sure that uh there was no guns and...
Q: (unintel) start you one more time, (unintel) you cleared your throat, I want it, (unintel) you know, I want it to be clean, so if you start again, since the police assigned...
Q: So uh uh ... being aware of the that break- up, were you aware of the tension that was going on, and the potential for both for violence and what kind of a thing were you being asked to do as, as a as a, once you'd infiltrated the organization, and let me know that you have infiltrated. You have to give me more information.
try to take Elijah's life, and they wanted to
keep down a basic war between the two um the
two organizations.
Q: Mmm-hmm. Was there um, so what was the department asking you, basically, were you just, were, explain what your, your duties were, in terms of inside the organization, and in relationship to the department itself.
Q: OK. And while you were there, what did you, what what did you see, and what what kind of things did you report to (unintel)?
Basically, uh what I reported to the department was uh who attended meetings, how many, and what was said. If there was talk of guns, then I would mention it in my
reports. If not, I just would tel 1 them actually what happened.
Q: How, how did you, did you have any any coming into the organization in the beginning, do you have any personal feelings about Malcolm and the organization and what they represented in in the whole scheme of uh national security, or as a as and organization?
Well, coming into um, coming in to the uh (unintel) Mosque, Malcolm's group, uh I had just gotten out of the military, and I really didn't uh didn't know that much about it. So, I really had, at that time, or whenever, no conceived notions about who this man was, or just from what I saw, and that was it.
Q: Mmm-hmm. And what had you seen up to that point? What did, what, you know, with the limited thing that you had seen about him, what did you uh know about him or feel about him at that time?
Q: Um, so uh, how did this, during this time, when he finally comes back from Africa and you you first, did you recognize at that time, or did you see in any sort of explicit way the the tension or that was surrounding
him, in regards to the nation of Islam and himself?
Uh, did- I saw the tension was still there, but I also felt that he was moving in a different direction.
Q: Tell me what (unintel) when he comes back from Africa, there's still sort of (unintel).
Q: Did you feel, at this time, that the uh police police department was was interested in trying to uh uh interrupt or uh avoid any, stop any sort of attempt on Malcolm's life or Elijah? This is the whole point of the information that you're giving them?
Well, that um, that certainly would've stopped the uh problem between the two groups was, I felt, basically, what I was doing with the information that I was given--
Q: (unintel) you have to explain what we're talking about, and and for the audience, they don't know what we're talking about.
Well, if there, if there was any
um,
Q: How, how um strong or efficient organized was Malcolm's security, within his own organization? Talk to me about that. Give me a real picture of it. Um, talking about Malcolm's security.
Q: OK, let's cut for a second. (unintel)
TWO.
Q: OK. Um, talk to me about the firebombing. What what was, what happened at
that moment? What was the perceived uh uh, who was perceived to be responsible for it, and uh how did uh Malcolm's organization basically decide they were responsible?
Q: Um...
And this is um, this is what brought up, this is what brought up the thing that at a meeting, that they were supposed to have uh, they wanna know if people could be frisked, and the word came down, no.
Q: OK. Let's cut. (unintel misc.)
CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH GENE ROBERTS.
MARK.
THREE.
Q: OK. Um, tell me who you are, your your your relationship to this whole story.
Q: OK. Now, you were saying, after the bombing, that there was a lot of speculation about who did it, and within or in Malcolm's organization. How, when you report that kind of, did you report that, those, all that speculation back to the police department? How did they respond, that...?
Uh, reporting back the speculations that the organization had on Malcolm's house being fire-bombed, um, whatever the speculations were, I reported it. If they said they felt the PD had done it, then that was what was, you know, in my report. Uh, Justice Department, Elijah's people, whoever, that was placed in my reports. Uh, I never really knew what the department did or felt at that point in time. Uh, I would just
meet, they would ask me questions, I would sit down and um go over my reports that I had submitted, and after that go back and uh go back to the organization.
Q: No, and we're forgetting that you were saying that they were concerned about the, the police department, with the heightened tension between the Nation of Islam and Malcolm's group. With the fire-bombing, which obviously becomes a an image, a symbol of heightened tension, do they uh advise you on how to conduct yourself or what to be concerned about, or what they might do to uh to to deal with the (unintel)?
irregular to me, to uh jot it down, and they
would uh hash it over between themselves.
Q: Now, you said that after the bombing, there was a meeting that that takes place, discussing, within Malcolm's organization, discussing his security. Talk to me about that meeting. Who was there, and what kinds of things are discussed then, and include it?
Well, after Malcolm's house was
fire-bombed, there was a, there's a meeting
of about maybe five or ten of the membership.
Coulda been more or less. D'arcy James,
Shabbaz (unintel)
membership bring a gun or something, and we were told that he definitely didn't want anybody there with guns. So that particular night, it was basic business as usual. Uh, no searches, and everybody uh acted as they always did.
Q: So, Malcolm is is scheduled to speak at the El Aban the next day, and it is decided that no one will be searched, and no security will carry guns.
Q: Um, now you say that um prior to the Audubon uh uh meeting on that Sunday, that you had seen a dress rehearsal for the assassination. Describe that seen for me, exactly what you saw, and then what you did with that information.
Well, that Monday night, Malcolm
had a uh meeting. And I was part of the
front ratstung
Q: And again, let me know, that Monday night a, a week before or two's a quarter, we know what we're talking about. The content. The Monday before or two weeks before.
At the meeting that Malcolm had
was, if I remember correctly, the following
Monday,
rehearsal for the actual incident.it upon them then
Q: What, what uhm, what, what uhm got your attention about Bill King, your friend?
Well, first of all I've known him, I've known Bill King, I've known Bill King since uh junior high school, so we're seeing him there, and I hadn't seen Bill since I ran into him in the riots, during the riots. He was taking pictures, and we talked, like I said, we childhood friends. And then I hadn't seen him for a while, and at this particular meeting, there he is, and he's
sitting up front. And this is the first
meeting I recall seeing Bill in, and I would
have spot him if he was at any other meetings
'cause we go back so long.
Q: And you had no idea how they would take care of that?
No.
Q: OK. Did you relay that same information to Malcolm's security?
Yes I did.
Q: Talk to me about that.
Uhm, after uhm
some sections of Malcolm's speech that night,
and then we, after all that broke up, the
regular broke up, a few of us got together
and I told them, "I just saw something that
uh I'm not too sure of." And I described
them the incident and one of the other guys
said, "Yeah. I saw it. But I didn't pay it
any mind." I says, "OK." And then, maybe a
couple of days later prior to the Sunday's
Q: OK. Uhm, there are a few incidents reported during the last couple of weeks where Malcolm has confrontations and what people perceive as attempts on his life. Are they discussed within the organization with him, and how are they responded to?
Well, for the ex'-, exception of the fire bombing of his home, uh nothing much
else was said about attempts on his life,
Q: How did Malcolm res'-, wha'-, how, I'm sorry we rolled out of film.
MARK IT. FOUR.
Q: OK. Describe for me the day, let me let this plane go. Describe for me the day that uhm of the assassination, February twenty- first 1969.
Well, the day of the assassination uh there was to be a meeting at the Audubon. I got there about three o'clock, and I spoke to some of the uh ...
Q: Let me ask you a question. Three o'clock is late.
Yes.
Q: OK. The meeting is at one o'clock on the, I think he's supposed to speak at one.
I thought it was a three o'clock meeting.
Q: Three o'clock? OK.
Yeah, 'cause he got there at three thirty.
Q: Oh, OK, OK. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
OK. Uhm, the ...
Q: Start again, start again.
OK.
what they call front watcher." And there was
the one, there was about four of us, maybe
five that stood across in front of the
platform, that stage. And Malcolm was still
in the back. And as the meeting opened up,
Ja'-, James, I think Benjamin, Benjamin
Goodman came out, and he opened up the
meeting. And I felt that rather strange
because uh James Shivas
aisle two pass me, two of them run right by
me, along with a lot of the members of the
audience. And the third one, I saw him, and
I as went towa'-, toward him, he turned and
he fired at me . And I turned, he missed,
although he hit, hit my coat just on the
inside. And then I knocked him down with a
chair. I saw him get up and scamper out the
front door. Saw Reuben right behind him, and
Q: Now, you say that everything seemed wrong that day. Explain that to me. What did you feel, what did you notice, what did you see that you felt was just out of the ordinary that day.
or something wasn't right that day because
uhm, like I say James usually opens up,
Q: Uhm, when uhm, when you see the, the uh, when the commotion happens, do you flash back at the uh, the dress rehearsal that you seen, uhm, isn't everyone else aware of this, this scenario because they, they had talked about it before, and why did the guards suddenly
leave the front of the stage to go to the commotion, really? Who are the five guards that relieve you up front? I mean, give me a, a sense of the whole thing.
The uh five guards that relieve me
up front, that I remember was Robert Smith,
and James Vernol, or James Temple, I really
don't remember that well. But when I heard
the commotion, I didn't think, you know, I
just went toward the commotion, I hadn't put
one and one together. And then I saw the
shooting, and now everything is in turmoil.
So I'm not even thinking, now here's the guy
that takes the shot at me. And I didn't
SPEEDING. MARK. FIVE.
Q: Uhm, knowing uhm that there is this hyper-tension that's going on, what happens to the police? Why isn't there a police presence in the uh area around, I mean involved at that time. The police are over across the street in the hospital. What i'-, what i'-, what is happened there.
Q: Uhm, your wife is there.
Yes. My, uh...
Q: Uhm, what, what, what is her experience, she has, she, she had witnesses the whole thing as well. She is sitting clo'-, on the next to Malcolm's wife. Uh, describe, explain, describe that scene, too.
My wife's presence there was
another part of those things that went wrong
that day. Uh, she was supposed to be going
to a movie with one of her girlfriends, and
she had gotten dressed up and basically had
no place to go because uh the girlfriend
backed out. So she asked, could she go with
me. And I had second thoughts about it, but
Q: Now, did you eh, eh, you know, as a police officer, a person who's in the organization, you infili'-, you know, infiltrated your organization. Did you
expect or feel that Malcolm would be killed in public like that?
Q: Now this is uh, this is uh, this is uh, uh, uh opinion question here, but you are a police officer. You know these kinds of things, you've been in the service, what is a public, a public killing like this? What is it, what is it, what is the statement that's being made.
Uh,
message to whoever else wants to uh follow in
his footsteps that uh if we can get him, we
can get you.
SPEEDING. MARK IT. SIX.
Q: Uhm, I want to go back to what we were talking about before. Uhm, you uhm as a police officer, why, what does a public killing like this say? What is the message in a killing like this?
him, we can get you and don't think about
joining with him, come with us. It has a
whole lot of connotations to it. But it's
mainly one of uh fear, in my estimation.
Q: You talk about Monday he says he's going to bring the list. Talk to me about what he has said at the mo'-, what he says he's going to do that Monday night, that Monday, and what people expect him to have with him. What, what you felt he had, with on him, at the Audubon that day.
That Monday at a meeting, at the meeting, at the Audubon, he had mentioned that he had a list of names, because at this point he is visibly angry. He's, Malcolm is visibly angry after the fire bombings and I imagine other things that weren't known to everybody. 'Cause he was upset that the fire, you know, could have killed his children. So...
Q: I'm sorry. Let's stop. Start me again with discussing look after. OK. Start
again, On the Monday, Malcolm is visibly angry at the fire bombing.
Q: Talk to me about, you're give Malcolm mouth, Malcolm mouth to mouth uhm resuscitation uhm and what happens when uh his wife comes up to that stage and describe that for me.
around for a while. I must have stayed a
couple hours, I don't know. But I stayed
around do'- i-when I left, the ballroom was
about clear.
Q: What kind of questions were they asking you?
Uh, well basically what happened. The questions they were asking is basically what happened uh as best as I can remember how did it happen? Did I know who did it? Did I, well like when I, did I know that I uh recognized anybody that did it and I told him at that point, "No." Because the three shooters, I had never seen them before, so I didn't know them at all.
Q: Now there seems to be some uh they be, they at some point questioned why do you give Malcolm, Malcolm mouth to mouth when the photograph comes out. Talk to me about that and they're feelings about you doing that.
Well after the photos came out of
me giving me, Malcolm mouth to mouth uh one
of the staff people, I had to come into the
office for a meeting this particular day,
anyway, and they have the photos. And they
ask me uh, "Why did you, why did you do
Q: Uhm, where are the kids in all of this, the children, his children are there. Do you remember them after when you were on stage with him?
Q: Did your feelings about Malcolm when you first came in, and up to the end, did they ever change in terms of how you felt about him? And, and what did you feel about him uh in the end? How did you feel about seeing him gunned down like that?
time. Uh, having your wife and little
Q: In what sense, and what do you mean by that?
Q: Uhm, in the investigation afterwards, did you uhm, what did you feel about the investigation, what did you feel about the, the findings in the end, uhm, and what do you feel, to this day, what do you feel about how uhm the conclusions to Malcolm, the whole Malcolm case?
Well, as far as the investigations,
I didn't really uh have much outside of
making the identifications of Haar that I,
that I knocked with the chair, and telling
him, telling the department uh what happened.
As far as the rest of the leg work that went
into the investigation, I really didn't have
uh that much of an input. Uh, the only thing
Q: Do you think that three who killed Malcolm were, were actually those three, those...?
Q: We're out, we're out of film.
I didn't really get a good look at them, the other two guys.
BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X SHOW EIGHT HUNDRED. CAMERA ROLL ONE EIGHTY-TWO. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW GENE ROBERTS.
Well, to the best of my knowledge, ah everybody that ah got sentenced ah were basically part of the ah people that killed Malcolm, I don't know what happened to the two people that started the commotion, I don't know if they were arrested or even if anybody knows who they are, ah the three shooters I'd say are responsible.
Q:
know you would you would like to think yes,
Q: (unintel).
MARK IT. EIGHT.
Q: When the people that you were supporting in the Secret Service questioned you're giving Malcolm (unintel)?
Well, the question ah why did I give um Malcolm out, ah I felt nev had been asked, ah it was one of those ... OK.
NINE.
Well, that question ah, why did you
do it, it disturbed me ah ... ah them
meant my giving him mouth to mouth then I was
going to give mouth to mouth. I never
thought about ah why I was doing it, it's
just the fact that all I know here's a man up
here in front of this white man's shoulders
Q: So what uhm, so how did they ask you? I mean what did they, what did they say to you?
Ah, in reality you would get the impression that uh they were saying, well you should have just let him go.
THIS IS A ROOM TONE FOR GENE ROBERTS INTERVIEW.
AND WE'RE ROLLING.