ROLLING.

OH, ACTUALLY NO I’M NOT, I’M SORRY.

I FORGOT TO GIVE MY SPEECH. I’M SORRY. I’M SO ACCUSTOMED TO GIVING A LITTLE SPEECH BEFORE AND I FORGOT TO–

(laughter) I haven’t heard your speech before, you go ahead.

THIS IS MY LITTLE SPEECH: MY VOICE IS NOT GOING TO BE HEARD, OK? SO THAT MEANS THAT WHEN YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION TRY TO GIVE ME AS FULL AN ANSWER AS POSSIBLE. SO IF I SAY, “WERE YOU WEARING BROWN SHOES THAT DAY?” YOU WERE SAYING, “THAT DAY I WAS WEARING BROWN SHOES BECAUSE BLAH BLAH.” BECAUSE NOBODY WILL HEAR THE QUESTION THAT I ASK YOU.

Mmm-hmm. All right.

I’M GOING TO TRY VERY DILLIGENTLY TO KEEP YOU IN THE TIME PERIOD.

All right.

AND OTHER THAN THAT–

All right, I don’t think my–

READY FOR RETAKE.

–recollection of dates–

READY FOR RETAKE.

–is very good.

OH, NO–

SURE, SURE.

YEAH.

SPEED.

OK. OK CALLIE, READY.

REVEREND GREELEY, HOW DID YOU FIRST HEAR ABOUT THE ATTACK ON REVEREND REEB?

Well, we had a telegram first from Martin Luther King of course, asking us all to come down, but I think that my first word about the actual attack on Mar, on Jim Reeb was from Homer Jack who was on our staff at that time as Director of Social Responsibility. Actually he had called me that very evening in Philadelphia. I was at a committee meeting in Philadelphia. He called me early in the evening to tell me that every thing was all right. He was there with quite a few of our ministers and lay people and, it was considerably later the same night that he called me again to say that everything was not all right. So I guess it was by telephone, the, that night that I first heard about the attack on Jim Reeb himself.

DID YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT ATTACK WAS ALL ABOUT AND–

Well no, I, I certainly didn’t, have any context for it except the very serious situation. But, that that particular attack Jim Reeb died two days later I guess, that attack was on three young ministers who had been eating in the restaurant there and were attacked as, on the sidewalk as soon as they came out of the restaurant. I knew the tenseness of the whole situation in that sense I was aware, but, I, I had no concept of what the particular confrontation was for. There was no, no specific purpose, I’m sure for that confrontation. Three, three, white men, was it three, who, who, resented these people being there attacked them just out of the blue, so to speak.

WOULD YOU TRY TO REMEMBER TO INCORPORATE THE QUESTION INTO YOUR ANSWER, IF YOU CAN?

Go ahead.

WHY DID JIM REEB GO TO SELMA?

Well, Jim Reeb went to Selma in, in response to that telegram that I received and that plenty of other people all over the country received from Martin Luther King. As soon as we heard that he wanted a large number of people from various denominations down there, we notified our ministers and Jim Reeb was, one of those who went. They went all of them of their own volition. But of course, to help in whatever way they could.

WHAT I’M GETTING AT IS THAT I KNOW MANY MINISTERS WHO WERE ASKED BUT NOT ALL RESPONDED AND DECIDED TO GO. WHAT WOULD PROMPT THIS YOUNG MAN TO DECIDE THAT HE HAD TO GO?

Well, I, I think that, there were, a large number of ministers at that time who felt a real concern and Jim Reeb was among those who would naturally respond to that kind of a, of a request. We certainly prompted them or prodded them, we didn’t have to in most cases, they had a social conscience, they were interested in the civil rights movement and committed to it and he among others responded very promptly. He’d been working in Roxbury in Boston which was illustrative of his, his concern I think for better race relations for the civil rights movement. He was working for a while with Duncan Howlett at All-Souls Unitarian Church in Washington, DC. And his whole life, even at that early point had been dedicated to the kind of, of concern that the civil rights movement represented.

NOW, AFTER REV. REEB DIED, YOU WENT TO SELMA, AND I’M WONDERING AS YOU MADE YOUR DECISION TO GO, AGAIN, WAS IT A SITUATION YOU FELT YOU HAD TO GO THERE THEN BECAUSE OF THIS VICIOUS ATTACK ON REV. REEB?

Yes, I think we felt that we had to go there, partly as a result of the vicious attack on, on Reeb. But I will say that there’d been a considerable concern on our part with regard to the whole situation. I don’t believe as many of us would’ve gone. I have to acknowledge this and we wouldn’t have gone officially as a Unitarian Universalists Association Board of Trustees if it had not been for the attack on Jim Reeb. But I think that, that, we were there in spirit before that attack on Jim Reeb. Or, or, our three young ministers. And I, I would say that we would’ve been pretty well represented but not as widely represented of course. Except for that attack on, on those three young men.

[airplane in background] WHAT WAS THE RESPONSE TO–

EXUSE ME.

I see. I see.

WE HAVE TO STOP FOR THE AIRPLANE.

MARK IT.

OK.

THE UNITARIAN CHURCH HAS ALWAYS HAD A, A LIBERAL TRADITION, WAS SELMA REALLY PUTTING YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH WAS IN SOME SENSE?

Well, yes in some sense. In a fairly direct sense I would say. I think that, as a denomination, we had always been certainly not lagging behind maybe in the forefront rather characteristically in the forefront in regard to race relations. I will say from the early part of the nineteenth century on they, there were pioneers among the Unitarians, very definitely so. And I, I would say that during the civil rights period, there was a greater, a higher level of consciousness with regard to the, to the needs and the justice of the situations than, than would be, than would represent the average population, of course.

WHAT DID YOU KNOW ABOUT MARTIN LUTHER KING BEFORE SELMA?

What did I know about Martin Luther King before Selma? You challenge me to recall a little bit. I’m not sure that I knew a great deal about him before Selma. I’m quite sure that we had met, but I’m not sure at the moment whether we had met more than once or twice. I think mat—I think Selma might have been up to that point, was my closest contact with him. We were together many times after that in this country and at the second Pacem in Terris Conference in in Geneva and upon various occasions. But I think that that must have been my closest contact with him up to that point. I think I knew plenty about him, not plenty, never plenty about him, but I think I knew a, a good deal about him up to that point. And when, when this telegram came appealing to us to respond, it wasn’t novel to me by any means. Either with respect to the cause, or with respect to him personally. I guess that’s the best recollection I can give you with regard to my acquaintance with him at that time.

DO YOU–

Actually, I, I should say that although I didn’t know it, he attended my church in Boston quite a number of times when I was preaching there and he was a student at the Boston University School of Theology. I didn’t realize who he was then of course, I’m sorry to say. I would’ve put him in the pulpit and sat in the pew.

OK.

IF YOU COULD JUST GIVE ME A REAL SHORT BLURB ABOUT I REMEMBER MARTIN LUTHER KING, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH AND YOU KNOW JUST AT THE BEGINNING THERE SO THAT I CAN HAVE THAT TO PICK UP WITH THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL AND THEN I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION FOR YOU? IF YOU COULD JUST, JUST BEGIN THIS–

SECOND STICKS.

OK. IF YOU COULD JUST BEGIN AT–

I don’t actually remember right now, whether I had actually met Martin Luther King once or twice before Selma. Certainly my acquaintance with him at Selma was the, the most, extensive that I had had up to at that time, or, our engagement with each other was the most extensive up to that time. I had met him before once or twice, I guess I might recall that he attended my church. Martin Luther King attended as a student when he was at the Boston University School of Theology. I was preaching there and he and a roommate or a couple of friends came in quite a number of times, they told me later, but of course if I had known who he was then, I would’ve put him in the pulpit and sat in the pew no question about that.

LATER AS YOU CAME TO KNOW HIM, DID HE INFLUENCE YOU IN ANY WAY, AND WHAT’S YOUR IMPRESSION OF HIM AS A MAN?

Well of course he influenced me before I knew him because I knew about him. And I will say that he always influenced me. That’s a, that’s an understatement. Later he influenced me most profoundly, I regarded him with great awe. We were together rather intimately a number of times, but I’ll say as far back as Pacem in Terris II in Geneva, it was with some hesitation that I suggested a few things to him. He wasn’t, he wasn’t received by, by the statesmen, politicians-they thought they were statesmen at Pacem in Terris in Geneva anywhere nearly the way he ought to have been received as a top American, if not the top American at that time. Later, everybody recognized his stature, his quality. But again and again he was not given, from my point of view, by the rank and file, or by the leadership of the country much of it the, the respect or actual reverence that he should’ve had. I think, I hadn’t known him very long, but what I certainly had the highest regard for him or received inspiration from him. Or received inspiration from, from him. We, we-

WE JUST RAN OUT.

Just ran out, all right.

SPEED. MARK IT.

OK.

YOU WERE BEGINNING TO TELL ME YOUR IMPRESSION OF KING AS A MAN, AND I WONDERED IF YOU COULD BACK UP A LITTLE BIT AND DESCRIBE YOUR FIRST MEETING WITH HIM REMEMBERING TO PUT HIS NAME IN THE SENTENCE FOR ME.

Well, you know, I actually don’t know when my first meeting, I don’t know now when my first meeting with Martin Luther King came. I, I, I do remember being enormously impressed by him and that was, that was sometime before Selma. A couple of times, I’m sorry to say I can’t pinpoint it, but in the earliest period of course I admired him enormously. I admired him from start to finish for the depth of his convictions and for his almost stubbornness in defending those convictions. Allow me to go tangentially a little, but it wasn’t tangentially for him to speak of Vietnam, because so much pressure was put on him to confine himself to the civil rights movement. But I admired him immeasurably for his following his convictions wherever they went. And he was just as important, well I can’t say just as important, but almost as important in the peace movement, therefore, as he was in the civil rights movement. I think that perhaps it was not until the Washington March that I felt really well acquainted with him. His, “I Have a Dream” speech although, after that and especially when he addressed a, a, a Continental Assembly that we had in Hollywood, Florida and we had the opportunity to entertain him and his wife afterward in our apartment that I felt more intimately acquainted with him, but from the, from start to finish with the utmost unqualified admiration.

YOU’VE GIVEN ME YOUR IMPRESSION OF HIM AS A LEADER, WHAT ABOUT AS A MAN?

EXCUSE ME I JUST WANT TO CHECK ON THE NOISE OUT HERE.

What did I think of him as a man? Well, a man and a leader aren’t all that separated from one another. He had leadership qualities beginning with his own convic-convictions and commitment. Extending into his oratorical, or preaching and polemic power, which went together and as a person of integrity and charisma, intellectual ability, moral strength, I’d say all those were part of the same person, if I may suggest that but they constituted Martin Luther King.

WHAT WAS YOUR IMPRESSION OF SELMA WHEN YOU FIRST GOT TO THAT COMMUNITY?

What was my impression of Selma when we first went there? We went there as a Board of Trustees officially, I think it was into the Catholic Church that we first went to be briefed by people who had gone there ahead of us and by one or two of the local people. I guess my mind was more on the issue than it was on the community, although of course my impression of the community were, were not unimportant either. We were introduced around. I, I was impressed by the fact that it was a somewhat isolated or closed-in community. We spent the night, with another man and I with a beautiful woman who was our hostess and gave us her bed and a couch and she slept on the floor, I was certainly most impressed as most grateful for her hospitality. And I guess that typified for me the hospitality of the, of the Black community there. So that that was a great experience for me, the first time I, I rather think that I had spent the night like that in a closed in close-knit black community. But the level of, of concern and commitment for everybody and the, the unity of the spirit that was shared by all were equally important to me.

WHEN YOU GOT THERE, GOT ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF, OF DOING WHAT YOU COME TO DO IN SELMA, WHAT SPECIFICALLY WAS YOUR ROLE? HOW DID YOU BEGIN YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THAT MOVEMENT?

What specifically was my role in Selma? You know that is a little while back, and though I continue to live on the inspiration of it, to a considerable extent I can’t remember the detail. I remember working on the service for James Reeb about five or six of us working together. Martin Luther King wasn’t there at the time. He arrived later. I remember perhaps as vividly as that, the consultations in the Brown Chapel and the services or constant worship and singing in the Brown Chapel. The place was packed. I spoke, others spoke, the, the minister there presided, introduced us one at a time. I guess that we already felt or almost immediately felt assimilated or oriented to the cause and to the group. So outstanding in my mind, are, were, were the, the, orientation that was given to us by a number of local people and our own advance guard in that Catholic Church when we first arrived the, the meetings in the Brown Chapel one succeeding another, but, but full of great enthusiasm and great commitment. Absolutely wonderful and a third, would be, no, the third would be the arranging of the service, the fourth, the service. The fifth, of course at the Selma line and the confrontation there, I remember speaking with, with Wilson rather, rather resolutely and trying to get a compromise with regard to ‘marching to the courthouse. We finally did get a compromise. Clark was unyielding, Wilson Baker was, was certainly more open and rational. Those are the things that stand out in my mind.

I WANT A LITTLE BIT MORE OF THE SPECIFICS OF THAT CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH WILSON BAKER ABOUT ALLOWING YOU TO MAKE THAT MARCH TO THE COURTHOUSE.

Well, I broke out of the line. I don’t know how I got through the posse there, but the two or three of us apparently were beyond the posse and talking with Wilson Baker and, and Jim Clark. And one of them said to me, I guess it was Wilson Baker that he was, I asked him why he, was, was so adamant in disrespect and he said he was committed to carry out the laws of the, of the state of Alabama. And I said, what about the laws of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights of the Constitution? And he said, well, I guess that, I guess that’s my job too, something like that. But then we did have to talk quite a bit about the about marching. They had said that there would be no marching of course, absolutely no marching. Then I think, some of us said, can’t five go abreast. Well, I don’t remember the detail of this, but I finally said, I think it was, can’t three abreast go on the sidewalk? And I think he said let’s, as I’m answering this question, it occurs to me that he said, Let’s go off and talk about this later. And we did talk about it later, I guess over at the Brown Chapel and he came back and said, Well, you can do two or three abreast on the sidewalk. And then he protected us for that for that march to the courthouse.

SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU WERE A LITTLE TOUGH AND A LITTLE ANGRY WITH HIM AT THAT POINT.

Well, there, there is a picture that shows me with my finger pointing at him, but I, I was a little persistent maybe, I’m sorry to say that I wasn’t sufficiently educated to know what his position was going to be or why he had to adhere to it. So I was a little persistent, but there were others who, who of course were the same way. And I felt that we gained something.

DESCRIBE TO ME WHAT THE SELMA WALL WAS AND WHY IT WAS THERE.

Well, the Selma wall was there to prevent there going to the courthouse or beyond that point. It was just a confrontation Jim Clark had his posse there and and it really was like a, well it was a military confrontation from his point of view. With a group that was totally pacifist–

–of course, like in so many other situations, they never–

WE JUST RAN OUT, I’M GOING TO HAVE TO– I’M DEFINITELY GOING TO HAVE TO PICK THAT UP. YES. YES. SO YOU’RE NOT GOING TO SAY YOU WERE ANGRY EVEN BUT–

–went over there, and Homer wanted to go down again, and he went down last, on the anniversary. But now what about Viola Liuzzo, Liuzzo–

ROLLING.

OK CALLIE I’M READY.

OK, I WANT YOU TO PICK UP AND BEGIN AGAIN AND TELL ME WHAT THE SELMA WALL WAS AND WHY IT WAS THERE.

Why was the Selma wall there in the first place? Well, it was there to, to contain the, the black community and the whites that had come from the North and not to have them go to the Courthouse. But it was really a confrontation of course that that was representing force on one side, and, and completely pacifist positions on the other side, which I think has happened again and again in history but certainly Jim Clark and Wilson Baker didn’t, didn’t realize they actually felt threatened I suppose by the by the black and white together on one side of the Selma Wall and I say have no consciousness, how, how non-violent the, the blacks and whites together on the other side of the wall would be. But, as soon as we went down there, we were introduced to the Selma Wall and our youngest, representatives plus our, our oldest in their 80s took their turns through the night and during the day to to keep their vigil at the Selma Wall which was very important syl-symbolically. And, and not, not back up, but testify and, and ultimately they, they won, they won their cause so it was certainly worth while from that point of view.

SO YOU WERE TAKING A SHIFT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT SOMETIMES JUST KEEPING–

Yes, yes they did, and I did. I guess I was late at night and early in the morning, but we had an elderly judge, who was in his early 80s from Massachusetts who got up about 5 o’clock in the morning to take his shift. I was very impressed of course, everybody was eager to take, his, his turn, at the vigil and, and not allow any break, so to speak, in the witness.

YOU, HINTED AT IT A LITTLE BIT, BUT IF YOU COULD BE A LITTLE MORE SPECIFIC ABOUT COMPARING JIM CLARK AND WILSON BAKER.

Well, I found Jim Clark and Wilson Baker to be somewhat different. I’m sure they had their own tensions themselves between them, themselves. But Jim Clark, I, I think was adamant and couldn’t see beyond his own philosophy and practice. Whereas Wilson Baker, it seemed to me, although at first I thought he was just as rigid, was really trying to understand another point of view. He certainly had the capacity to, to realize that we were thinking differently from the way he was thinking and that we might have not, not have been all that malicious. So, so I was pleased of course when he ultimately did listen. I mean you have to listen in the first place to understand and then I think he understood and we rather thought he was a, a reasonable man when he finally said, go ahead and march on the sidewalk. Whatever it was, two or three abreast, I guess it was three. I was marching with, I think, Walter Reuther and Archbish-bishop Iakovos of the, of the Greek Orthodox Church. I guess there were three of us abreast.

YOU GAVE ME A LITTLE BIT OF IT EARLIER AGAIN BUT I WANT MORE OF WHAT THE FEELING WAS AT THE MEMORIAL SERVICE FOR REV REEB. HERE WAS A MAN WHO HADN’T HAD MUCH TIME TO KNOW VERY MANY PEOPLE IN THAT COMMUNITY AND I HAVE THE SENSE THAT IT WAS QUITE SPECIAL THAT MEMORIAL SERVICE IN THE CHAPEL. COULD YOU GIVE ME A SENSE OF WHAT THAT LIKE?

Well, the memorial service for Jim Reeb I’d have to say was one of the high points in my life. Partly because of course, the, the cause that was represented partly because of the participation of so many people black and white together. It was a tremendous experience. A very good friend of mine was then the Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts, Elliot Richardson, later became Attorney General of the United States and Secretary of State and Ambassador to Britain. He wasn’t known then, but I had the privilege of introducing him at that service, to others and there was a great sense of a national impact I think both religiously and politically being made at that time. Well, certainly it was important to me to realize later on that it made that impact at the White House, and on the Congress and led to the important legislation that it did. The high point in the civil rights movement, now there were others who were in a sense had been martyred as much as Jim Reeb was, but Jim Reeb, Jim Reeb’s death seemed to be the climax and to occasion, both in Selma the experience that all of us had, and in Washington the response that was elicited.

DO YOU THINK THAT WAS BECAUSE HE WAS A WHITE MAN?

I think it was partly because he was a white man, pathetically. I mean, it it, perhaps took that to make the, impact that was made. But it was also the accumulation of martyrdoms and of witness and the time was ripe undoubtedly for, for his sacrifice and a tragic thing, but when you look back how could a person have done more for a great cause than he did?

WHAT ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS OF STANDING AT THE CAPITOL STEPS, IN MONTGOMERY AFTER THE FINAL MARCH AFTER ALL OF THIS IS OVER, TO SOME EXTENT, AND THERE’S MARTIN LUTHER KING GIVING THIS SPEECH ABOUT NOT LONG WE MUST HANG ON, STILL IN THE SEASON OF SUFFERING. AND I WONDER WHAT THAT WAS LIKE TO STAND THERE.

I think we had both a great sense of victory and a great sense of frustration. You couldn’t help feeling so much had been accomplished. That successful march and so many people gathered again tremendous crowds. The sense of frustration and near hopelessness was as a result of seeing the Confederate flag flying still on the Capitol building and not being able to get the Governor for whom you had a certain sense of disdain at that point, how could you help it, to negotiate or, or be visible even. But that combination of a great sense of achievement and of victory plus frustration was a, an almost epic making experience. It was a crucial time of course, very crucial time.

OK, WANT TO STOP THERE?

THAT’S IT FOR ME, HENRY. THAT’S ENOUGH.

Fine.

DO YOU MIND DOING ONE MORE THERE? JUST ONE MORE QUICK QUESTION?

Right now?

My feeling as to how it was done, or why it was done or, whether it was done sincerely, or whatever?

YEAH, I GUESS, DO YOU PUT YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT YOUR PEERS AND WHY IT TOOK SO LONG FOR THEM TO GET INVOLVED.

Yeah, do you want me to start right in?

SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU WERE A LITTLE TOUGH AND A LITTLE ANGRY WITH HIM AT THAT POINT.

Well, uh, there, there is a picture that shows me with my finger pointing at him, but uh, I uh, I was a little persistent maybe, uh, I'm sorry to say that I wasn't sufficiently educated to know what his position was going to be or why he had to adhere to it. So I was a little persistent, but uh, there were others who, who of course were the same way. And uh, I felt that we gained something.

WE JUST RAN OUT.

Did you? All right. Is that all right?

YES. IS THAT OK FOR YOU TOO? OK. OH, THANK YOU.

You’re more than welcome. Delighted to see you. Thank you very much.

YOU’VE GOT A STRONG VOICE–