BEGINNING OF SIDE ONE

CONTINUATION OF UH SOUND ROLL FORTY-FIVE ON CAMERA ROLL NINETY-TWO AND WE'LL BE DOING ROBERT GOODMAN. THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION OF UH MALCOLM X, SHOW NUMBER EIGHT HUNDRED.

MARK. ONE.

Q: OK. If you can talk to me about the first time you actually met Malcolm at the Cross Decreme and just describe that meeting for me.

voice on the other end uh said, "This is Malcolm X and uh I'm uh in Chica'-, I'm calling from Chicago, I'm going to be in St. BD 0013 Louis and would you like to meet with me?" And I said, "Oh boy, would I!" or something, something silly like that. Uh, and uh my wife who is also a journalist was also interested in uh meeting him ’cause she had an interest in this too. Uh, so we went to the, this sort of luncheonette called the uh Shabbaz Frosty Creme. Uh, we arrived before Malcolm did. The uh man who owned the . Shabbaz Frosty Creme made a plain that we BD 0119 weren't really welcome there on our own. It was a Muslim owned uh, uh business obviously. So we waited out on the curb for Malcolm to arrive and uh my first view of Malcolm thus was him sort of jack knifing out of a car. He was a very tall uh man. Very, his, a man with very elegant motion, very erect bearing, uh, uh in the book I describe him as hav’—, having been, having the bearing of a soldier or a priest, and I still think of him that BD 0166 way. Uhm, and we went inside, sat down, spent uh, I guess two or three hours, and for me it was two or three hours of revelation.

Uh, uhm my uhm, [[0193 my head then was in the civil BD 0195 rights movement and, which was happening in the South. It was a source of great excitement to me.] This we're, we're talking about 1961, now, I think. Uhm, and uhm the, the problem quote on quote was framed for me in terms of the civil rights movement, which was the fight against segregation in the South. [There was a guy telling me that that was a side show, that that didn't count, uhm that the real problem was up north, that the BD 0239 problem was worse up north because it was going to be harder to get at, and also telling me that white people were the devil, in fact the blue-eyed devil and I was thinking of my blue eyes.] And uh, uh, and uh feeling embarrassed by them. [The thing about Malcolm, though, was you could have these conversations and you could, you could know that you were his enemy in theological terms, uh but he was so civil and so magnetic that BD 0288 you could have a very civil conversation with his, and in fact I, uh even at first sight I got to like him.]]0296

Q: Could you talk also about uhm well you mentioned that he said something about the cream and this is the only integrated.

Q: You also mentioned something that you're wife had mentioned in terms of uhm, uh a’-, at the funny moment, the bourgeois b’-, uhm businesses.

seriously and then he laughed and said, "No, we're not worried about that."

Q: Was, was Malcolm unusual, I mean were you meeting him as a, what you would consider maybe a black leader? Was this an unusual person to see as a black person? I mean was he putting forth a point of view that you really had never heard before?

Q: Could you mention Malcolm?

voice of the Northern, urban, black poor and he was saying things that I had never heard BD 0489 before.] I’-,]0490 including uh what, to me as a sort of innocent, white liberal at the time, was a sense of the death, the, the depth of uh, of uh anger, rage, and even hatred of white people that existed in the black com’-, in, in the black ghetto} Uh, uh I had never heard that before because uh I think probably every black kid growing up, growing up had BD 0530 heard it from uh parents or grandparents who had, or a great aunt who had lived in the South and ex’-, had experienced uhm the uhm white oppression in the South [[0548 but white folks weren't hearing it because not people were, not many people were bold enough to talk to us about it. Malcolm was. Malcolm wasn't afraid of anything.]]0559

Q: Can you tell me how uhm the opinion y’-, that you had of Malcolm before and then after that meeting?

exposure to Malcolm uh had been uh at Harvard the year before, I was up there on a BD 0591 fellowship for a year. And uh, I had come across Eric Lincoln's book on the black Muslims uh and I was reading it and I was half way through it when Malcolm appeared to do a lecture. Uh, I did not meet him then but I saw him do the lecture and I sat there thinking, "Well, theologically I probably don't agree with this guy but I can't really BD 0627 quarrel very hard with the indictment. Uhm, uh the theology had to do with white folks being the devil, uh the indictment had to do with four hundred years of uh white oppression of blacks, and I think it's very hard to loo’-, look at that and say, "No, that didn't happen." ]

Q: Do you remember him at that meeting?

Q: Uh, I'm sorry if you could mention at the Harvard meeting I remember...

narrow ties and their ivy cut suits, frozen masks of uh vigilance on their faces, and uh, BD 0794 so you saw their, not only was this a powerful man, that he represented something powerful, and something transforming, I think, for uh, for ghetto black folks.]]0807

Q: Was there a sense that you had before seeing, for example, the fruit there of the Nation, I guess changed after seeing, either being Har’-, having Harvard meeting or the tasty pastry, frosty creamy?

here and there around the room there would be these guys uhm, the cap’-, the local captain BD 0888 of the fruit is’-, of Islam was sitting at a table near us, a couple of his guys were there. And uh, uh I think it was clear to them that we were not a threat to Malcolm, or clear to them very quickly that we weren't a physical threat to Malcolm, but they were there just in case.

Q: Do you think that they got a sense from Malcolm, also, that he did not consider you a threat?

do uh about thi’-, this situation of race in BD 0977 America?" I sa’-, I said, I was under the spell of under Dr. King, uh to a degree still am, uh and I said, "I, my aspiration would be for a color blind society in this country where color existed and whe’—, and was an affirmative uh part of our lif but was BD 1007 never a negative for anybody. out That, that we would..."

Q: All right, we just rolled out.

UH, MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL NINETY-THREE ON SOUND ROLL FORTY-SIX. THIS IS UHM MALCOLM X, BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X, SHOW NUMBER EIGHT HUNDRED. ONE K REFERENCE TONE WAS RECORDED AT MINUS EIGHT DB, RUNNING SPEED SEVEN AND A HALF IPS. SIXTY HERTZ. CRYSTAL SINK.

Q: Uh, one of the things I'm gonna write, interview is why...(audio cuts).

Q: I'll ask you a question, and then yeah.

SOUND SPEED. OK, SLATE NOW. MARKER. TWO.

Q: OK. If you did uh tell me again what Malcolm asked you in terms of your solution to the so-called race problem.

notion of the beloved society which would be color blind and which color would not be a uh disability for anybody, uh it wouldn't disappear but it wouldn't be a disability." Uh, and uh Malcolm uh just kind of looked back at me and said, "You're dreaming. I haven't got time for dreams."] And uh I think that was the uh, I think that to me was the epiphany, that was the defining moment of the uh, of the whole interview I think. That's BD 1121 what I went, that's what I came away with uh and with the c’, with the, with the sense that I probably was dreaming.]]1132

Q: Did it change how you saw the world after that?

probably not in my lifetime, but that we BD 1187 could keep make progress, and I could see progress being made. Uh, uh King was in motion. Civil rights legislation was getting passed, black people were voting for the first time, black people were admitted to places they had never been admitted to, and uh I was ca’-, I, I was, I was still spellbound by that and I still believed in it, and to a degree believe it and hope for it still.]1223 Uh, but at the same time, in the BD 1227 book,in my book I describe Malcolm X as having been a prophetic figure and my first glimpse had been that, had been over this formica table. Uhm, and part of the prophecy was that, that America was sitting on it, on uh, uh force stronger and more destructive than the atomic bomb. Uh, with the discontent and the anger of uh, uh black people in the urban ghettos. Uh, so at the same time, these wonderful events were going on in the Civil Rights Movement in the South BD 1280 with the, northern ghettos began popping, Harlem in sixty-four, Watson in sixty-five, the prophecy was coming true.

Q: Can you give me a sense about how the Northern and Southern movement seemed different to you, and also how whites are reacting differently to those two movements.

Q: At the time.

Woolworth’s. Uh, hotels, restaurants, same way, even the voting rights act, which had been a last line of defense, it was, those, BD 1396 those laws, the segregation laws and the Jim Crow voting laws were so clearly wrong to so much of white America that you cou’-, that the, the black people engaged in that struggle could capture our consciences, could make us unable to look at ourselves in the mirror and say, "W’-, uh, we can, we can, we as a nation can live with those injustices." 1429[ Uh, the uhm,_l think we were under the delusion, [those of us who lived in the North, uh white, liberals who lived in the North, uh BD 1445 were under the delusion that things were fine where we were. Uh, didn't have uh white only uhm, uh bathrooms and drinking fountains, and lunch counters, and, and uh so on. Blacks had voted for ages, ha’-, were represented in Congress and so on,] Adam Powell for one locally famous example. Uhm, and [I think we deluded ourselves that things were, that uh this was the Promised Land, and of course it BD 1491 wasn’t.] Uh, and I think uh, uhm we became aware of that, I think starting with the riots, and [Malcolm was the first voice to

bring that to our attention in a National BD 1511 Forum. Uh Malcolm with his great gift for media politics. Uh, a real genius at it,] I think.]1522 Uh...

Q: Can you talk about, more about that, I mean that's now, but, what, what is this use of uhm, of the media? You mentioned he was the first master of the sound tra’-, of the sound byte. Can you talk about how he played with it?

attract the attention of the white media was BD 1612 quite often uh unfortunately to be outrageous. And Malcolm used uh outrageousness as a weapon. He said things that were quite shocking to particularly, to a white audience particularly.]]1632 But he was doing two things with that. He was teaching the white audience something it hadn't heard before. Uh, we, as I, as, as I've been saying, [1647 we weren’t accustomed to being told that we were devils and that we were oppressors up here in our wonderful Northern uh cities. Uh, two he was reaching a black BD 1662 audience, and within that black audience, a lot of people who had been saying these things at home, but weren't gonna go out even down on the street corner and say them if there were any white folks around.] He was speaking for the, for the, uh for a silent mass of black people. Uh, and uh give, and saying it out front on the devil's own air waves and uh, uh and that was an act of war, BD 1707 it was an act, it was a nonviolent act of war. Uh, Malcolm wouldn't appreciate me saying nonviolent uh because [I think words were weapons for him, and I think he

believed, he, he used them uh as a way of BD 1728 causing white folks discomfort without drawing bloo’-, without drawing literal blood. But he was drawing some psychic blood, I think.]]1740

Q: Uhm, you also mentioned how the media used him, and I'm wondering how you see them structuring of you an image of Malcolm?

that dogged him all his life.] Uh, it wasn't BD 1833 until after he was dead and after his uh uh autobiography appeared sh’-, uh within the same year, that began to understand the changes he had been going through and the, and the richness and the complexity of the man.][ Not that he had suddenly become a black white liberal, but that his, [there was a lot more nuance to it than uh, than uh we had read in the tabloids or heard on television. opening [The public image of Malcolm, the, the, the BD 1873 the gross image of him was teacher of hate.]]1879

Q: Do you think there was any way he could have changed within the media?

Q: Could you say Malcolm instead?

things, he had to offer them red meat. And uh they gobbled up the red meat.]]1927

Q: Why doesn't he just stop speaking to them?

Q: Why didn't Malcolm stop speaking to them?

Q: Great. Rolling out. All right. Perfect ending, I want you to know. Lovely.

Q: I'm going to ask you one uh...

THIS WILL BE INTERVIEW WITH UH PETER GOODMAN ON CAMERA ROLL NINETY-FOUR, SOUND ROLL FORTY- SIX.

SPEED. TAKE THREE.

Q: Can you talk about the press conference where he announces the Muslim mosque being in formation?

room, rather than have it up at the TerraceTerasa, BD 2565 which was where headquarters wa’-, was gonna be. He wanted, he, again, he was using the media as his, as his platform, as his megaphone, as his uh forum uh so that this would have a national and uh uh wor’-, even world exposure. Uhm, and uh that's, that, he, it was gonna be easier to draw a full contingent of the press to midtown than it was to be, to do it uptown.] Uh,]2611 uh he showed up uh lugging copies of his statement, a couple of his, his uh friends and allies at his elbow. Uh, and he uhm, uh there was, BD 2631 there was a, there was a room full of reporters and cameras as he an’-, had anticipated. And he did a long statement uh explaining that he was uh leaving the Nation of Islam, uh that he would uhm uh continue to follow it's basic principles, but try to bring them to a larger audience, and a larger following, uh that he would try to engage with the, with the uhm struggle of black people as it was going on then. The, the BD 2673 Nation that always withdrawn from the struggle, stood back from it, uh, uh he wanted it, he wanted to uh engage with it,

and indeed to begin to make connections with at least elements of the Civil Rights BD 2692 Movement of the day. [[2696 He uh talked a little about uhm uh the need for black people to arm in, in situations where they were threatened with violence to arm their, arm themselves in self-dense, and even to form gun clubs uh to do that. Uhm, and uh in the question and answer period, that got the most attention. and in the newspapers and the television BD 2738 accounts, that got the most attention. All the rest of the stuff was uh just kind of blown away by uh the acco’-, the excitement, I, I would even say agitation about this man who was talking about arming black people ]]2760 uh...

Q: And did he talk to you afterward about that?

press. In his Muslim days, he used to meet BD 2791 you at a coffee shop, much like the Shabbaz Frosty Creme up on, up in Harlem uhm, no longer had access to that, so he would uh, he would uh, uh meet you in Professor Michoz’s basement, which, i’-, in which there was a tiny island of space surrounded by mountains of books. Uhm, and uh we talked again. Our conversation ran on for a couple of hours. Uh, I he was quite tired, it might have gone, it might have gone on the rest of the day and BD 2834 night, I think. And during the course of that, I, I asked him uhm uh… (telephone rings).

Q: Cut.

HERE'S THE MARK. TAKE FOUR. GO.

Q: OK. So can you talk about going to Micho’-...

HOLD IT A SECOND. SOMEONE, GOOD, THEN CLOSE THE DOOR.

Q: to Michoz’s to uhm, to meet with Malcolm?

and we talked for a couple of hours. My, uh BD 2959 uh, it might have gone on for hours more but Malcolm uh was quite visibly tired at that point. Uhm, [2971 during the course of that we talked, I, [I asked him what he made of all the attention he had gotten at the press conference to the, the business about gun clubs, and uh armed self-defense, and uh he talked about the ideology of that. Uh, that uhm, uhm, uh that he, he, he was ideologically op’-, opposed to nonviolence as BD 3006 a principle, that uh blacks had a right, and indeed a duty to defend themselves against attack, but he also said uh, uh I know that the white media are gonna be unhappy with the, with the idea of, of black folks running around with guns, and he smiled a little as he said it. He knew wha’-, he knew precisely what he was doing in media terms. Uh, he BD 3041 knew that would get attention and uh it did not displease him, I think.]]3049

Q: Can you tell me about what the importance of his being based in New York?

Q: I'm sorry. If you could just get a sense of...

Q: Sorry. Let me rephrase that.

Q: Specifically in terms of media context why would...

three networks are he’-, are headquartered here uh uh the largest, most important newspaper in the country uh is headquartered here,] the book publishing industry is headquartered here, uh this is the place that sort, then more than now I think, but then, even now, but then uh, uh even more uh, uh sets the news agenda for the rest of the country, uh that uh local newscasts and local newspapers follow New York's lead on what's BD 3171 news, and [I think Malcolm with this sort of gift he had for understanding the media and the uses of the media uh understood that and wanted to be where the action was, wanted to be at the center.]]3190

Q: Do you think uhm, when you, you talked also about talking to him uh around the silencing, and I'm wondering if you can give a sense uh that when you're doing the story Newsweek and you think it's just going to be a short conversation?

about uh the assassination of uh John F. BD 3229 Kennedy saying it was a case of chi'—, uh chickens coming home to roost. [3236 There were deeper reasons for his being put out of the Nation of Islam and for le'—, and for his breaking with them, but that was the ostensible reason. [[I was working at Newsweek at the time still uhm and uh called him uh just for a routine uh response uh we were doing a lot of Kennedy stories, and there was going to be a little one talking about Malcolm having been suspended for uh for uhm ND 3279 having made that remark,] and uh Malcolm, with his gift for the so’-sound byte, I was expecting to pick up the phone say, "Hello. Here's the question." I'd get a, I’get a quote and that would be it. Uh, and that was normally the way one did business with him. If you needed a quote for a round—up story. In this case, he held me on the phone for longer than I had expected uh, I don't remember precisely how long, I have my guess is it was around fifteen minutes or so. And BD 3326 he asked me what I thought about a tend. That was the first time I had, he, he sounded upset. He sounded worried and it was the

first time I had ever sensed vulnerability in BD 3349 this guy who I've had always been accustomed to thinking of as an extremely strong man. And so we talked a little about it and I said that I was very sorry about it because think that uh not only black people but white people needed his voice.] Uh, and uh, uh there I regretted it and uh he thanked me for that and we said goodbye and uh uh, but it was the first time I, I sensed uh any, any vulnerability and first and uh practically BD 3403 the last time. I think toward the end of his life he knew his life was in danger.]]3416

Q: When you uhm, cut for a second.

MOVING ON TO HUH SOUND ROLL FORTY—SEVEN ON CAMERA ROLL NINETY—FIVE. THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE’S MALCOLM X SHOW NUMBER EIGHT HUNDRED.

SPEEDING. MARK FIVE.

Q: You mentioned that you thought that his uhm going public with uhm a log’-, Malcolm going public with a large indiscretion signed death warrant. Can you talk to me about that?

father Malcolm, the son, uh uhm there were other forces working to pull them apart that BD 3609 had nothing to do with this, but I think Malcolm's shock at the, at discovering this was genuine. Uh, he saw it as a, being a media conscious guy, saw it as a potential, a potentially terribly damaging thing for uhm the Nation of Islam if that got out. He called a few uh associates he could trust. Uhm, and uh alerted them that this might pop and that they were gonna have to have answers BD 3655 ready. Uhm, those people reported him to uh to the Chicago headquarters of the, of the Nation of Islam / uh and uh under their, one has to understand that under their rules uh a Elijah Mohammed was regarded as the messenger of Allah, he was regarded as perfect and that anybody who would say these things even within the family was blaspheming.

WE NEED TO CUT HERE.

Q: OK. OK. All right.

SPEEDING. MARK SIX. MARK.

Q: Can you talk about how you and he would talk about uhm about Malcolm, t’-, talk about Elijah’s indiscretion and then uhm that signed his death warrant?

so they wouldn't do it. Uh, he did begin BD 3825 getting on a coup’-, on, he did begin using it on two or three talk shows uh by early June. Uh, but to his surp’—, his great surprise, wasn't getting any mileage in the press out of it. Uh, again, [3843 I think the print press was very conscious of uh, of uh the libel pos'—, the libel potential here. So, Malcolm finally used the tri’—, the trial. He was uh there was a civil trial in which [the Nation of Islam was trying to evict him from his house, ultimately succeeded. BD 3871 Uhm, or succeeded in winning the judgment. Uhm, and uh in uh, during a two day trial, Malcolm uh, uh told this story in open court. At the point, it was protected because it was a part of court testimony. Uh, it could be printed without the risk of libel and it began to be printed. It got out into the open. It didn't make quite as big a splash as he had expected it to. I think he was probably disappointed, and in fact I know he was disappointed in the outcome. Uh, but uh BD 3922 it did make enough of a splash uhm to uhm uh bring down the full fury of the Nation of Islam on him. Uh, he was blaspheming the

messenger of God and uh he knew it, and at BD 3949 that point, the danger to his life that already existed uh intensified and in that, I think on that afternoon in court he had signed his own death warrant.]]3970

Q: Let's cut here.

Q: Great.

MARK. TAKE SEVEN.

Q: OK. Can you talk about public versus the private Malcolm?

gone down uh full of white folks and he celebrated...

Q: I wonder if you could hold, and just do it again without mentioning that, ’cause I may ask you that separately.

Q: So what is the difference between the public and private Malcolm?

of his life he might have found a few exceptions, but that was his rule. Uh, BD 4103 he was quite pitiless about that. [[4107 At one meeting uh he saw uh, uh, uh with the black audience there was one white reporter present.]]4116 Uh, Malcolm made a remark that I think probably might have been interpreted as anti-Semitic because he would use an heathen. Uh, [4131 uh and [he pointed down at the white reporter and said, "Look at hi’-, look at him, he tha’-, that's the first notes he's taken this meeting. He's making notes on what BD 4149 I just said." Uhm, and the, the, the room got very tense. Uh, the reporter, who I know, uh was a little scared uh and Malcolm defused it. Uh, Malcolm did his full brilliant smile, and he did have a brilliant smile, and he said, "Look at him, they don't even know how to smile, we can laugh." And he laughed, and the crowd, the tension came down like that. Malcolm knew how to BD 4192 control a crowd. A, a crowd would never have gotten_out of hand in Malcolm's hands ]]4199 uh, uh that was the pu’—, that was

the uh public Malcolm. [4207 Uh, [the private BD 4208 Malcolm called that same reporter a day or two later and apologized to him, and said, "You've got to understand when I'm up there on the stage I use whatever is around." And he had done that.]]42127 My own experience with Malcolm which was covered, you know, many conversations uh, s’-, uh either sit—downs or telephone conversations, uh was that he was never less than courtly. Uhm, [[4253 I don't think we ever got to be friends, or ever could have, I think our 4261 respective skin colors and his view this great division would have prevented that, but I think we did get to uh, we moved from a relationship in which these, these encounters were interviews to a relationship in which they were conversations. Uh, and even, even at my first encounter, I never felt uh, uh it's weird to say this, but I never took it personally, uh even with my blue BD 4303 eyes, and even with him talking about the blue—eyed devil. I never took it personally. I knew I was part of the

indicted group, but he had a way of BD 4316 making you feel comfortable, feel, feel as if you were talking man to man] with a peer, or maybe a superior.]4329 And uh, and there was uh, uh, it, it was, it was entirely possible to get along with him, to be uh, to be civil, to be friendly with him.

Q: In terms of your relationship, you said he liked to debate you, or liked to debate.

Malcolm fencing with me. Invit’-, e’—, even inviting me to say what my solution BD 4399 for the uh race problem would was uh, was, I mean that was, that was like a faint in fencing, and I lunged and he touche’. You're a dreamer.

Q: Can you describe him also personally, I mean how did you see him personally? You talk about his humor with you.

Q: Uhm...

Q: What I'm going to do uhm, is rephrase that.

Q: And uh let you keep this part, and I'll, I'll ask you to uh talk about how he seemed to you personally. ’Cause you mentioned at some point that you thought of him as an aristocrat and uhm then if you could talk about how, you know, he wrote you that...(audio cuts).

MISC: We are moving on to camera roll 96 on sound roll 47, continuation of interview with Mr. Goldman.

MISC: Speeding. Take eight.

Q: Can you give me a sense again about um ah the meeting where ah Alan, Alan Ellenberg did—-

Q: Okay.

illustrated by ah ah an incident in which ah he was addressing a uh a black audience in BD 5051 New York. Ah, the only ah, the only white people there were reporters. Ah, one of them was uh a guy from the New York Post named Al Ellenberg. Ahm, Malcolm made ah, Malcolm the warrior ah used, would use anything. Ah, of whatever shock value. And in this case he uh, uh said something to the effect that ah everybody worried about the Holocaust; nobody worried about the hundred million uh black people ah who had died in slavery or in the Middle Passage. Ah, ah, that why is BD 5112 everybody getting so wet—eyed about a handful of Jews who brought it on themselves, were his exact words. Ah, kind of an uncharacteristic line; maybe we'll get back to that. But um, ah the mood in the hall turned very tense. Ah, as Malcolm looked down at Al Ellenberg and said, Look at the devil down there. He's making notes on that. That's the only thing he's been writing in his notebook. Ah, Ellenberg could feel the crowd kind of rumbling and maybe moving BD 5161 toward him, and was ah, was really quite nervous about it. And uh Malcolm broke it

eh, just broke the ah tension by saying ah, by flashing his brilliant smile--and Malcolm BD 5179 did have a brilliant smile-—and saying, Look, he doesn't even know how to laugh. We know how to laugh from the belly. And he got, there began to be laughs in the hall and the tension was gone. Malcolm could control any crowd he ha- he ever stood in front of. There was no question of a crowd getting out of hand with Malcolm. Or of his letting it, encouraging it to get out of hand. But the private Malcolm called Ellenberg a day or two later and apologized for having done that, BD 5221 for having put him on the spot like that and used him. And he said, You've got to understand, I use whatever is at hand. Ah, and to me, I think that defined the difference between ah, ah the public man and the private man. The public, the public warrior, the witness for the prosecution. 5248[[ The private man I knew, ahhh, can't say we were friends. It was impossible ah I think for Malcolm to have white friends to cross BD 5263 this great divide between the races. But ah, he was ah, he was ah a man of um, courtly manners I think. Ah, almost an aristocrat, I

think. His hearing was aristocratic. Ah, he BD 5291 was, he was he was strong enough to be civil and even to be friendly with someone who could not be his friend.] Ah, at the t- after, / after my first meeting with him I wrote him a letter, ah, ah asking him some further questions.] I was interested in trying to ah to a a possibly a magazine piece about him and the Nation of Islam.]5326 He was still with them at the time. And ah, I knew BD 5334 writing the letter that he would answer it. There was just no question in my mind. And he did.

Q: And, why don't you um, this won't be on...the air.

Q: If you could s- talk about the letter again. that you wrote it....

particularly about his own conversion experience. Ah, I was hoping to do an BD 5381 article about him, ah, ah, and ah, I knew, sending the letter, that ah, I knew he was going to respond because that, he was a courtly, mannerly man and you, if he got a letter, he was going to answer it. And I got a letter back ah, ah, plainly typed by Malcolm himself. In fact, at the bottom where one usually sees the initials of the sender and the secretary, it says "MX MX," indicating he was both. And there were a lot . of uh, ah, typos and overstrikes in it. Ah, but um, ah, he ah, he ah answered the BD 5454 questions I had for him. Would you like to hear a little of it? Okay. [5460 Ah, it's ["Dear Mister Goldman." Always formal. Ah, "I received your recent letter letter and was happy to know that our discussion and the radio program increased your knowledge of Minister Elijah Muhammed’s aims among the American so-called Negroes. Concerning your request for some background material on me BD 5486 prior to my becoming a Muslim, I can sum up my pre-Muslim life in one sentence. Before being taught the religion of Islam by the

Honorable Elijah Muhammed, I was nothing BD 5502 intellectually, morally, and even spiritually." And he goes on to talk a little about his uh, conversion while he was in prison, by one of his brothers. And at the end he says, "so the only choice that tilt up from letter to Peter negroes have to make today is to accept God's solution and follow the Honorable Elijah Muhammed into some land of our own, where we can solve our own problems; or refuse God and BD 5541 integrate with the white man and wait for the white man to solve these problems." Then he adds, "any time I can be of any service to you in giving you an objective picture of Minister Muhammed's aims, please feel free to call upon me. Sincerely, Malcolm X.”]]5563

Q: Okay. Let’s cut. That's very nice.

Q: Yeah.

Q: Okay, what w- what was Malcolm's um thing about time? Being on time.

Q: You also had a story about um, his calling you after a Newsweek article and saying it's fair.

Q: What was that. Or, sorry, an aide calling.

journalist on a piece of work. He would be friendly and civil to you. Your piece would BD 5670 appear. Uh, normally you wouldn't hear from him. Ah, once in a while ah, you'd hear, but only indirectly, never from Malcolm himself. One time, it-—I think it was the day he uh held the uh, the the week he held the press conference breaking with the Nation of Islam and setting up the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated—-ah...day or so after that appeared, ah one of his senior folks, James Sixty—Seven X called me and said, Minister Malcolm ah thought that your piece was fair. BD 5721 "Fair" was a very strong worked for...Malcolm to ah, to- a strong compliment for Malcolm to apply to the white press! Ah, I was very proud of it, but it was interesting that Malcolm uh, would not do it himself.

Q: You also mentioned that your wife had a similar experience.

Um, and ah, Malcolm ah, ah clearly liked it BD 5768 and said so to Alex Haley who was collaborating with Malcolm on the autobiography. Ah, and asked Malcolm to call my wife and tell her that he had uh um....

Q: Sorry, if you could repeat, ’cause you're saying "he asked Malcolm to call," and you meant ask Alex, right?

Q: Did you just...

never did that, but he was kind enough to put BD 5850 it in the epilogue to his book, and so the compliment reached a far wider audience than my wife's ears alone! It was much nicer in a way.

Q: You also talked about um Malcolm's hatred of whites was an acs— abstract principle. What did you mean? Could you talk about that?

who ah, interview- other journalists who interviewed him, other white people who met BD 5955 him--found him pleasant, even amiable ah in certain settings. And ah were always surprised by it because of his warrior image. Ah, but that was Malcolm and it led me to believe that ah, that ah the hatred was very real to him, but it was a politic- it was first a theological and then a political position. out Ah, he believed it uh, believed it ideologically, believed it theologically in his, and in an earlier time, but...

Q: Okay. yeah, we're rolling. Yeah, okay.

MISC: Yes, this is sound roll 48 on camera roll 97. BlacMside’s production of Malcolm X 800 one K.Reference tone was recorded at Minus 8DB running speed at seven and a half IPS.

MISC: Okay, take ten.

Q: Um, explain the the whole Jewi- anti- semitism in terms of Malcolm.

Q: Kay..? Oh-kay! [laughter] Okay.

ambivalent kinship with Jews, which I think BD 6145 Malcolm felt and incorporated into his his ah theology. [The first time I met him, ah, when we were at the Shabbaz Frosty Creme, ah, he said to me ah, Jews are black people trying to become white and ah, given Malcolm's theological position at the time, I took that as half a compliment!]6176 Ah, and he went on to explain that there were common r- that we had common roots in the um, in the Middle East. That our language had common roots and that we, we essentially were the same people. We BD 6197 had- history had taken us in different ways, down different paths, but ah....So I don't really, I don't think of Malcolm as anti- semitic, although he would use it as part of his view that he would use anything that came to hand as Malcolm the Warrior, Malcolm the Prosecutor.

Q: You mentioned also that that got complicated by those who were running the businesses in Harlem, for example, and tho- those who are running some of the um, shopping- something-—

Q: And, what do you think his position is on white America, or white Americans, after he comes back from the Haj. Has it had changed? What is.....

Q: Sorry. Um, if you could say "Malcolm."

was beginning to differentiate among them. BD 6454 Not to say I love them, just to differentiate among them, ah see different attitudes, ah, so that he could no longer say, They're all devils. On the other hand, [[6471 a lot of white liberal ah ah analysis of the new Malcolm X, quote unquote, who came back from the Haj, I think it tended to sentimentalize him, to turn him into an integrationist, to turn him into a black white liberal. Ah, he was not that. When he talked about Islam when he came back, ah, he was talking about white BD 6502 people who happened to be Muslims, ah, and regarded them as colorblind. He said in, in Islam, it's like the fingers of the hand: they're different sizes but they're all part of the same hand. White, black, yellow, red, whatever.]]6524 Ah, and he had experienced that on the Haj. He had newer experienced in the . United States. [6533 And ah he felt that the, that the air we breathe in this country was essentially racist. Ah, that there might be some exceptions. Before black audiences he BD 6547 would say, There might be some good ones; we don't have time to go looking for them.] Ah, trying to reach a larger audience, including

the civil rights people who he hoped to BD 6562 connect with, he'd be a little more nuanced than that, but the message was essentially the same. That ah, ah, white people may not be the devil, but you can comb the their history for angelic deeds and you won't find a whole lot of them.]6589

Q: Why do you think that some white college students connect with him, at that time. Like, if you can give a sense of the difference in time on the colleges then.

life while he was in the Nation of Islam and practically all of it when he was out...a lot BD 6668 of it was college audiences, and he really loved them. I think students just were more open to him. White students.

Q: Okay. Let's cut right there. Yeah.

MISC: ....eleven.

Q: You mention that um what interested . Malcolm most was the decolonization of the black mind. Can you talk about that?

God's judgment. Malcolm was gonna bust through that if he could. And he could do it, as he liked to say, by any means BD 6771 necessary. And the means he used were verbal. That was his great gift. And ah, he wanted to make black people feel as if they were at the very least equal and possibly morally superior to white people.

Q: Why was this such a threat, do you think, to white people?

was talking about self—defense, ah I think BD 6881 was ah quite frightening] and it was a sense that, in the south, um ah, white segregation is always- eh segregationists always complained about outside agitators; well, Malcolm was an outside agitator on the national stage. [And there's always been this sense that blacks are an emotional people waiting for somebody to ah ah send them out with guns and swords and...so on and take this terrible revenge. And I think uh, BD 6926 Malcolm was quite conscious of that. He used it, he used it every way he could.]]6933 I talk about Malcolm in the book as having been a guy who believed in- that if you cocked your fist, you might not have to throw the punch. And ah, ah I believe that was so.

Q: Where are you when you hear that he's been assassinated. And could you describe that whole thing for me.

think somebody from my office called me at BD 6986 home, knowing that- knowing my relationship with Malcolm, and told me about it. And uh my heart was in my shoes. Um, I f-find myself getting anxious even talking about it now. It was a very painful moment for me. And I think for many Americans.]out]7014

Q: What was the first thought that ran through your mind when you heard he was assassinated.Sorry, hold that for one second.

Q: No.

MISC: New roll.

Q: The future, in terms of Malcolm and--

Q: -—yeah.

MISC: ‘Ninety-eight. New roll.

Q: Is that moment in your head?

MISC: We are moving on to camera roll 98.

MISC: Okay, there is a marker here... thirteen.

Q: Good. ’Kay. If you can describe the scene for me of finding out about Malcolm's assassination, and how you felt.

Q: Sorry, could you repeat it again? ’Cause they won't know what "it" is. Sorry.

but I think if one rad the Muhammed Speaks, which was the newspaper of the Nation of BD 7708 Islam weekly as I did in those days, ah, the ah, the language was inviting his death. It was becoming more and more violent. Ah, in one issue, Louis Farrakhan had filled more than four pages of a tabloid-sized newspaper with invective against Malcolm, saying he was worthy of death. Um, and ah, so one had the sense that it was comin'. You just didn't know when.]]7764

Q: When you heard it, who did you think had done it? Or, who id you think had assassinated him?

hearing invective from ah their ministers pulled page every week about the hypocrite Malcolm. Um, ah and just did it as a freelance operation of Islam. It's known- my my initial 4 BD 7838 to please their their superiors in the Fruit reaction was, however, that it, that the the impetus for it had come from the Nation of Islam because of Malcolm's ah, conflict with them. He was a heretic, he was he was a hypocrite, which was uh uh a crime uh punishable sometimes by death. And he died. Ah, ah, I continue to believe that the, the, that's where it— that's where it initia- eh BD 7897 was initiated. Ah, I think there- I think the police and the FBI played a, an ignoble part, but probably a passive part. I don't think they were actively involved in plotting it. But, the police, as I wrote in my book, ah, had his- uh, had very sound intelligence that it was coming. They didn't know precisely where or when, but they knew that a, ah um, a Muslim assassination attempt was BD 7939 actively in the works. Ah, and they ah did not try strenuously to stop it. Ah, the FBI 8 had similarly good intelligence and ah, I think they- the FBI we now know tried to

inflame the ah the ah quarrel between Malcolm BD 7968 and uh Elijah Muhammad and uh, while I think there was plenty of- plenty there for them to quarrel over without help, ah, I think even for the FBI to have played that role was ah reprehensible.]]7988

Q: Do you think there were times also that the media played that kind of role? Times that they....

inflamed relations between them_and eh, so I BD 8084 don't think we helped.]8086

Q: Can you talk about um, how Malcolm affected you personally? I mean, did you n- did your knowing him change you in any way?

MISC: Could you repeat um repeat that, I was I sort of off with the camera.

Q: Okay.

counterpoint to what eh, to what eh uh Doctor BD 8183 King was arguing. And, he uh changed the way I looked at the world and at and at my work. And eh, so I think he had a very quite transforming effect on me.] Eh, it was eh, I considered them both great men, and I don't think that, both Doctor King and Malcolm X, and um I don't think it's, I don't think they should be seen as antithetical figures. [I think they should be seen as part of a whole. That Malcolm spoke of reality. That King BD 8232 spoke of a dream that is still worth aspiring to. Ah, eh, but I think, I think it's possible to hold two ideas in one’s head at the same time. I can. You can. Black America can. I hope white America someday can.]8255

Q: And, last question. What was um, do you think the media reaction was to Malcolm's assassination? And I mean at that in p- particular, how they viewed him personally. That this was now somebody out of the way. And were there any personal, you know, any reporters that you want to mention--but not names-—you know, glad he's dead.

trade was celebrating, they wouldn't have said it in front of me.

MISC: This’ll be continuation of interview with Peter Goldman. ...0kay, play that. Sound's rolling. Sound's rolling. And, here's marker fourteen.

Q: Okay, if you can give me a sense of the botched assa- um, botched investigation and the impression there that some of the analysts gave you.

was intense pressure on the uh ah New York police and the District Attorney's office to BD 8516 ah solve this crime. I think nobody who investigated the case believed that there were only three people involved, but they created a three-person theory, and I think two of the three people they uh found were the wrong guys.]]8539

Q: And, what would you- be your opinion of the investigation itself.

got our three guys; case closed. Ah, Harlem is quiet and everybody’s happy.]]8604

Q: Do you think they particularly cared, one way or the other?