Hello.

Marker.

Hit it.

If you could tell me about your old neighborhood and, and when and why you moved to this area.

Well, we moved here because we wanted a larger house, our family was growing. And we moved here because we wanted, we needed the room and the space.

OK. Can, can you start by telling me where you, what kind of a neighborhood you are coming from and what kind of neighborhood you're coming into?

Well, we were living in the, on the West side of Detroit on, in the area where most Blacks lived at on the West side. Generally, they had two sections of the, three sections of the city. You had the East side, then we had the West side where Blacks lived at, and then you had the North side of Detroit where Blacks lived. And we moved from the west side to this area because the color barrier had been broken here and Blacks had started to move into this area.

OK, cut.

Mark it.

Marker.

What was 12th Street like?

Oh, 12th Street in, in the early '60s was a very exciting street. It had a lotta places to eat, and then it had nightclubs-

Can, can, can we start up again? There was noise.

OK. In the early '60s, 12th Street was a very exciting street because they had nightclubs, they had restaurants, they had shops there, and there was, especially there was a place called Klein Show Bar and some of the jazz musicians played there. Especially Yusef Lateef, I remember hearing him there for the first time. And then there was a friend of ours who was a saxophonist, and we would go there to hear him play. And it was just an exciting place to be. And one place in particular in that was Hugh's Barbeque. I remember that because they had the best barbeque. The best barbeque in Detroit at that particular time was at Hugh's on 12th Street.

OK, cut. That was nice. OK.

And also if as you're doing it-

Take three.

-if you think of it, if you can let me know about how far you are, where you live in relationship to where the trouble is.

OK.

Marker

So we can get a sense of how far you are [unintelligible] -

OK.

OK. So, if you could tell me it's, it's Sunday, July 23rd.

OK. The very first hint that we had of any difficulty was my sister-in-law called about 8:30 Sunday morning and she was concerned about her brother. My husband was working midnights, and she called and asked me, she said, I heard that there's a riot on 12th Street. Is there a riot? And I said, No, there's no riot, everything is quiet over here. And so, she asked, she said, Has James got home? And I said no, he hadn't got home yet. And shortly, oh, maybe five or ten minutes later he came up and I asked him, I said, Daisy said that there's a riot on 12th. Do you see anything? Did you hear anything? He said, No, there's, I didn't see anything, regular Sunday morning. So, we sat on the front porch and just, it was a peaceful Sunday morning. And then, oh, about ten o'clock I had the radio on and I heard them say that they had closed 12th at West Grand Boulevard, and that was all that they mentioned. They just said there was a little disturbance on 12th Street and they had closed it at West Grand Boulevard. And then maybe about noon I noticed that traffic in the street was picking up and you could see people moving towards 12th Street. It was like people found out that something was going on. So, the traffic did increase and as the, maybe people got out of church, traffic, people started in that direction, so that was when we knew that something was really happening there on 12th Street.

OK, stop. And your, your parents were, were visiting, were looking for a painter-

Yeah, yeah.

Speed.

Hello.

Marker.

After church was over, my mother came by and stopped by our house and her and my dad, they were going over to my brother's house to meet a painter. They were going to make arrangements for him to have his house painted. And I told her, I said, I heard the, they're having some trouble over on 12th Street. So, she said, Well, I have got to go. And I said, Well, if I were you I wouldn't because it seems like they're having some difficulty. She said, No, I'll go anyway. So, about an hour later they both got back and they were kind of hot and bothered. And I said, What's the matter? And they said, We couldn't get across 12th Street, they just, everything is blockade up there. And, and she says, We're gonna go home. I said, Well, that's fine, go straight on home. And by the time they got home, I told them to call me to make sure-because you could tell by this time something was goin' on, it was just in the air that something was about to happen. The, the burning hadn't yet started, but that, just that excitement that something was going to happen was in the air. So, by the time they got home they called, and they got ri-right at Grand River and West Grand Boulevard and there was a furniture store there, and by, by the time they crossed Grand River on, got onto the other side, someone, the loo-the rioting started right there. They started looting the de-the store, and then they ignited it and someone sent a fire bomb off and they took out the whole block.

OK, stop. OK. And I want to, if you could explain what you-

Hit it.

So, as all this is going on, if you can tell me at your home what you're thinking and doing.

Well, by the-when my mother got home and I noticed it, there was, my sister started calling me and she was saying about that time that they were burning some stores up on Grand River. From where her, where she lives at she could see Grand River. I couldn't. The only thing I could see was I could see people, furniture in different people's cars going up and down the street. The burning had started. And about that time there was a explosion on Pingree. It was in a gas station and a cleaning establishment, and it had started to burn and it took out the whole block. It ignited a whole block on Pingree. And from where I live at I could see the flame shooting over, up. And about then you could see the flames coming from 12th Street. So, I thought, I said, and where I live at, I'm four or five blocks from where the burning was taking place, so I, I didn't know what to do, I just thought that maybe I'll go and get my, all my important papers and have them ready, because I don't know what's going to happen. But I wanted to make sure that I had my children's birth certificate and my marriage license and my house insurance. I-

I'm sorry, I'm gonna stop you for a sec. I guess I need a better sense-

Hit it.

Hello. [laughs]

OK. So, you're about six blocks from an explosion and fire and burning.-

Mm-hmm.

-What's your first concern?

Well, I was concerned about whether our block would be on fire also. We weren't situated where there was, there are no-there was nothing that could actually burn. But then when I heard that the block on Pingree had gone out, that, that's when I got concerned, and I was concerned about my children, I was, I was concerned about their safety because at that time they were, they were small. And I didn't know what direction to go in. Where, where could you go? At that particular time there was, it was just the sense of, of frustration.- You just didn't, just sit, we were just sitting and watching, didn't know what was gonna happen next.

You just didn't, just sit, we were just sitting and watching-

I'm sorry-

-didn't know what was gonna happen next.

OK. We have to do it again.

That was good though.

That was a great answer.

That was nice.

And we're out.

Mark.

Marker.

OK, so six blocks away the city is on fire. If you could just let us know what you're thinking and doing and feeling.

Well, about that time in the afternoon I started to be getting concerned about my family. And I didn't know, I just thought maybe I should make some preparations because then, when I could see that, that it was gonna get worse, then I decided that I would go and have, have everything at hand. And I got my children's birth certificates, and I got my marriage license and our house insurance and I put them all in an attaché case and I sat it at the front door so that in case we had to leave and we had to leave suddenly, I could just pick that up and go. I didn't worry about taking any clothes because I didn't think it would be necessary. I just wanted to have those important papers and have my children safe and my husband, and, and then we could just leave. I don't know where we-I, I had no thoughts of where we would be going, but I just thought that I should be ready to, to have some indication that we did exist, that there was some record of our existing somewhere.

OK, stop.

Mark.

Marker.

So, it's the afternoon.

And we were telephoning one another to see what was goin' on in different parts of, of, of the city where-my sister-in-law, I would talk to her and she would tell me what was goin' on in the area where she lived at and what preparations she was making. And then I would call my sister and I would talk to her and she would, she would tell me what was goin' on where she lived at. Then I'd call my mother and, and she would say what was goin' on over there, and, and it was just that sense of, of, of fear. We didn't know what the on, the only co-communications we had was by telephone, because we were afraid to get out to try to drive to, to get to the, to one another, so we just had to, to communicate by telephone. And we would find out then, oh, well this store just, they just burnt that store. That block just went out and they said it started to, it, it spread to somewhere else. And that, that was the line of communication that was goin' on between people. I think, we were using the, the telephone as our, our, our contact point. That's how we kept in communication, that's how we knew what was goin' on.

And so, what did you do in the house?

Well, that's when I started making preparations for if we had to make a sudden move. That's why I, I had my attaché case all packed with all the important papers that I thought I would need in it. I had that ready because I, from what I was hearing, different parts of the city was just on fire. People were looting and things were being burnt, and so there-I, I had to be ready. I just thought that, that we should be ready. In case we had to, to leave that we would be [clock chime] ready to go.

OK. So it's just-OK. If you could just tell me again about packing, what you packed and the reason for putting it by the door.

I had my marriage license. I had my, all my children's birth certificate. I had their, their health records. I had, especially I had our insurance papers for the house. That's what I had in, in the attaché case, I had that. All, anything that I thought was important that had anything to do with, with our home or any, any kind of important papers that, that I thought we would need for, to, for record purposes later.

And what was your sense of what would happen when darkness fell?

I didn't know. There was at, that, that's what you didn't know. You didn't know what was going to happen. You-

If you could be a little more complete in terms of telling me about afraid of being at nightfall.

Well, at that particular time then you started to hear them saying that there was gonna be a curfew and that everyone had to be off the street at eight o'clock. And then you could see the, the movement in the streets. You could see people moving back and forth trying to get where they were gonna go by eight o'clock, because by then you'd heard it on the radio and on the television that, that, that the troops were coming in.

OK, I'm sorry. We have to stop for a second. The curfew's at 9:00 p.m.

Is it at 9:00 p.m.?

Yeah.

Oh, well I thought, well Sunday they had at 8:00 p.m.

Are you sure?

Hit it.

Marker. Whoops. Second stick.

OK. So, then the phone call network has told you that the city is just going up-

Mm-hmm.

-it's just getting crazy.

And then as it was getting darker, I was getting, I was terrified. I didn't know what was happening because everywhere I looked I could see flames burning. I, I looked towards 12th and, and over St. Agnes Church, I could see the flames just burning, 12th Street was just burning. All you could see was just flames. If you looked towards Lynwood, all you could see was flames and in the air you could feel the, you could see the ash just fluttering down and the, the, the sm-the, the, the smell of, of char. That, that burning smell was in the air, and it was just smokey. The whole, the whole area here was just, just a smokey area. If you looked towards West Grand Boulevard, it was burning that way. Everywhere you turned and looked you could see nothing but flames. It was just, it was, it was just like they were just leaping in the, in the sky, at night. And then that was when I really got terrified. I said, wha-wha-what's gonna happen? At, at, to-tonight [clock chimes] what is gonna happen? Will our, will we, will our, will our block get burned down by then? And by that time, when I was talking back and forth to my sisters, they were saying where they were living at, it was just like every, the whole city was on fire. You couldn't get to where, you couldn't get to where the, the fire was, but then you could, you, the, the sense of that the whole city was on fire is what you got from talkin' to different people on the telephone. Not only, I talked to my friends and they would say the block where they lived at, it was, was burning. My sisters was telling me that it was burning. My sister-in-law, where she was staying. The whole area was just burning. And then I co-what, from what I could see it was worse over here than it was in any other part of the, of the city at that particular time. Then I got concerned about my dog. We had a dog, and it's, what are we gonna do with, with our dog? And he was a type of dog that he liked to be outside. He didn't wanna be inside. We had to go get him and put him down in the basement and lock him up. He's, he was the type of a dog [laughs] that didn't want to be locked up, but we had to lock him up because I didn't want him to escape, because I didn't know what would happen to him. So, that was the, that was the sense of frustration that night, and then I didn't know what tomorrow was gonna bring, I didn't know what the morning was gonna bring.

OK, cut. That was nice.

Thanks.

[inaudible]

Mark.

Marker.

We had sorta got used to the helicopters flying overhead, they were flying low. And you got, I had got used to seeing the soldiers drive up and down the street in the Jeeps. And I had gotten sort of used to seeing the police riding four to a car with their back to back, with their shotguns out of the window. I had got used to seeing that. But I went upstairs, the curfew was on and everybody had to be off the street, and I came in the house and, and one of my, my, my youngest daughter at the time was still in diapers, and I went upstairs to get a diaper or something for her, and to get a wash cloth out of the, the bathroom. And when I got upstairs I heard this helicopter flying real low. And I looked out the window, and when I looked out the window I could see the soldiers, he was, this helicopter was flying so low until I could see the soldier sitting in the helicopter. I could see him. And then when I, I looked out the window, I looked to my right into the alley and I hea-saw this tank rolling down, coming down the alley with this big long gun on it. And I, and I thought, oh, my god! I thought that the tank was gonna come down and it was getting ready to level out our block. That's what I, that's what, what my thoughts were. And I knew my children were downstairs, and I, I think I made a, a jump from the top step downstairs, and I went and I started, I started gathering them up and I said we had to get to the basement. It was like, Get to the basement! I, I, I was screaming and hollerin' and I was tryin' to get 'em down to the basement because I didn't know where this, I just thought that this tank was coming to, to, to shoot down the block. I don't know why I thought that but I did. And I ran and I got 'em down in the basement. One of my daughters was, was cooking somethin' on the stove, think she was making pancakes or something, but then it-I, I made her turn it off and run to the basement. And [sighs] then we heard gun shots and I, I didn't, I couldn't tell where it was coming from. All I knew was that our block wasn't being leveled, but I did hear the shots from, from, that were being fired at that particular time, but I, I did-didn't know where it was, where it was, but I did know that I could hear the, the, the, the shots being fired. All I knew was I was glad that they weren't shooting down our block.

What did that feel like? This is-

It was terrifying!

I'm sorry, I was talking. Can you start again?

Yeah.

What did it feel like?

It was terrifying. It was just, it was absolutely terrifying because I could just see the, the, it was just, like, lumbering. Just, just lumbering along. And, and then I-then behind it came some soldiers in a Jeep. And I didn't-you couldn't go out, so you didn't know where was, and the only thing I thought was, oh my god, they're getting ready to level the block, because they had been saying there were snipers. They had been saying on the radio, you hear 'em, Well, there's snipers, and then there was rumors that there were snipers in our area. And I just thought, oh my goodness, they're just getting ready to, to level the block now.

OK, stop.

Because I had gotten some, some different. I had went up there one time and I got-

Take eleven.

OK, wait. We're gonna get this on camera.

[unintelligible] .

I wanna hear this.

Right.

Mark.

Marker.

OK. Watching on television, what was, what was coming through your mind in terms of what was being burnt and what wasn't?

Well, [sighs] for instance, we had a couple stores in our area, major chains. We had an A and P and then we had a Buy-Lo market that I expected the Buy-Lo to be burned because I had gotten some meat there on one occasion and it, it was some chicken. I had to take it back because it was, it, it, it wasn't any good. So, I am sure there was-other people have said the same thing that they had gotten some products from there, from their market that weren't up to par. So, I expected Buy-Lo-

-if they were gonna burn down a supermarket-

I'm sorry.

-Buy-Lo was gonna be one that would be gone.

You out?

Just ran out.

OK. We gotta do that one again.

Mark.

Marker.

OK. Did it make sense to you which stores got looted and which ones got burned?

Oh, yes. It did because there were some supermarkets in the neighborhood that didn't sell-products weren't very good. They sold bad meats, their stores weren't clean as they could be. And then there were other stores, like the A and P market was, was well kept, they had nice food, their food was good, their prices were, were right. But, so you expected, I expected that the Buy-Lo supermarket was going to be burned down. If they were gonna burn down a supermarket, Buy-Lo's was one of the ones that was gonna go because it was rotten. To me, they, their products were, were terrible. They, the, the, their store wasn't, wasn't kept as clean as it could be. And the-I went in there on one occasion and I got bad meat that I had to return. And after that I just stopped shopping there and I just knew that Buy-Lo's was gonna be a market that was going to be burned. And A and P might have been looted, but it didn't get burned.

OK. Stop please. OK. Could you describe for me what the-

Mark.

Marker.

OK, if you could tell me about the streetlights.

Well, I know what it's like to, to, to live under martial law, and I can imagine what it would be like to live in a country under martial law, because at that particular time during the riot, city of Detroit was under martial law. The soldiers rode down the street in Jeeps, and one particular night they came down, I imagine they didn't want to be targets, and they just came down the street and they shot out the streetlights. They shot out all the streetlights on the block so it would be dark. There was no streetlights during the riot, they shot the ones out on our block so that they, I guess they didn't wanna be made a target of at night.

And what about the cops in four, four cars, four cops to a car? What did that look like?

The police rode four to a car. They had the back windows of the scout cars out, and they would have their rifles. They were sitting back to back, and they had on riot helmets, and then they had their shotguns just perched out the window. They, that's the way they rode up and down the street.

Do you think the city and the, the government overreacted to what was happening?

At that particular time, I think after the soldiers got in it was much calmer. They, they went about their work in a professional manner, and things sort of got back the way they were supposed to be after the soldiers got in because they, they, you could see them and they were doin' what they were supposed to do and they were respecting people's wishes. I, I remember that on Grand River and, and West, when they burned down a block, the only thing that was left was a, a bank vault. The whole building was burned-

-and the bank vault was left.

Mm-hmm.

And they were guarding the bank vault, two soldiers.

Hmm.

The whole, everything, and it was just amazing to drive and see this huge bank vault-

Just out [unintelligible] ?

-standing out-right, that was all was left.

Did you see any distinction between the-was the National Guard over here or was, were the federal troops here as well?

The federal troops were here.

[coughs]

[inaudible]

[unintelligible]

Do you want me to say that again?

Yeah. Are we ready?

Take fourteen.

Do you wanna match this to the first one [inaudible] ?

Change [unintelligible]

It's the story about 12th Street and [Inaudible] .

You want me to get my shotgun and you can hold it over your lap?

[laughs]

We've got stop down.

[laughs]

Huh?

No! Thank you.

You don't want a shotgun?

OK. Michelle?

Gotta be dramatic, though, Daisy. They tryin' to [inaudible] .

Yeah. [laughs]

[inaudible]

[inaudible]

[laughs] That's right.

Oh!

You got to act like you was scared.

Mark.

Marker.

Oh. [laughs] Oh.

OK. If you could describe 12th Street, what it was like.

It was, it was just-

Can you start with 12th Street so we know what you're talking about?

OK. There's somebody at the door.

Oh, stop the tape. That might be Mrs. Kelly.

Detroit could use somethin' like that.

Detroit?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. What? Directors?

Uh-huh.

Take fifteen.

You need the money, though.

Yeah, I can do anything I wanna do.

[laughs]

Speed.

Maybe they'd come back home.

Mark.

Marker.

OK. If you can just tell me what 12th Street was like.

Oh, in the '60s it was a very-12th Street was a very exciting place.

OK, can you start again?

OK. 12th Street in the '60s was a very exciting place to be because they had clubs there, nightclubs, and they had restaurants and they had shops that you could go to. It was just, it was like the, the mecca had sorta shifted to 12th Street from Black Bottom because at that particular time, Black Bottom was being, let's say, rebuilt. And so, therefore, a lot of merchants and a lotta places had moved to, to, to, to 12th Street. And we would go there for-one place in particular was Klein's Show Bar, it was a very nice club. I heard Yusef Lateef there for the very first time, jazz. And there was another, a club directly across the street and we would go, one of our friends was a saxophonist there. And I do remember that sometimes, in, in the summer he would come out on, come off the stage and come out onto the street playing his horn and it was just exciting. And we would go to, there was a place, Hugh's Barbeque on 12th Street. They had the best barbeque in the city of Detroit. They had real good ice cream, and we'd go there all the time. It was just, just an exciting place to be. The neighborhood was very nice. You weren't afraid to walk down the street. I, I was never afraid to be on 12th Street.

OK, cut. [unintelligible]