—get a little description of what your involvement was during World War II, and if you were in a CPS camp, your, what, ever—

—story—

—yeah, the guinea pig story. We don't have much guinea pig stuff. Did you, did you do other guinea pig experiments?

The experiments, Neil.

OK, you, we're rolling?

Yeah. I'm—

OK, go ahead. Okidoke. We'll do it all. OK, so would you start by introducing yourself, please?

I just have to announce that I am the bad cop, and that we have to, we really—

He needs to go at, by 3:15—

Great.

—too. OK, so.

I'm Neil Hartman from City Ville, Ohio. I was drafted in, in 1943, in, in Trenton, North Dakota. And because of the fact that I had to pay, or they requested me to pay thirty dollars a month for my keep, I was looking for detached service where we didn't have to pay. So, I had a chance to go to Philadelphia, in a combination project of four days at Byberry, a mental hospital, and two days as a guinea pig for hepatitis at University of Pennsylvania. As a guinea pig, I was one of the five men who got two kinds of hepatitis. In those days, we called it serum hepatitis and infectious hepatitis. Nowadays, I think they call it A and B. And because the five of us had had both kinds of hepatitis and then recovered, they convinced us that they really wanted to end it all by taking a piece of our liver, a biopsy, and looking at it under a microscope to prove that it recovered completely. Our doctor at the unit was an army captain, Dr. Neef, but whenever we need any surgery they called upon a rather young resident doctor there. And so, he did the surgery on us, and he's the one who did my biopsy. His name was C. Everett Koop. He assured me that it would, nothing would go wrong. They did not want to give us any antibiotic, or any penicillin, or anything, because they really were a little scared something might happen, and that would be very bad PR if it came out that they had operated on well people and caused trouble. So they didn't give us any sulfa drug or anything. As a result of that, my wound did split open and I had quite a little scar. Just recently, Koop wrote his autobiography, and I read it, and was, rather surprised that he only mentioned this project, I think, one sentence. I wrote him a fan letter and, said he had given me a scar. He answered right away and said, that that scar's probably the only thing I'd get from him, but he also went on to tell me something that rather surprised me. He said, the reason he didn't talk about that in his book, it was one thing he was not proud of, [Note Interview gathered as part of The Good War and Those Who Refused to Fight It: The Story of World War II Conscientious Objectors] that he thought it was rather dangerous. He also claimed that one person died. I have not been able to verify that, and I've asked a lot of people. But that was his reason for, for not mentioning his book, that he was not proud of that. But he did go on to mention that he was very happy to be associated with the Quakers, and he ment-, mentioned Dr. Jonathan Rose in the University of Pennsylvania, who was his mentor.

Could you, were there other guinea pig experiments that you have participated in?

No.

Besides the, just that one.

I don't know of anyone who participated in more than one guinea pig experiment. There were loads of experiments, but you didn't go from one to the other.

How long did that go on?

I th-, must have gone on for two years or more. I was in it from the fall '43 to, the, the fall of '44.

Hmm. And, and did you have any long-term effects from that?

I've had no, no long term effects.

You look devastatingly healthy, laughs for having both types of hepatitis. You really did recover. Was that the result of the biopsy, was that you had no—

The biopsy had nothing whatsoever to do with the recovery or anything. It was purely to research. I was not for the biopsy. I don't like having scars on my body. But, they convinced me, and also said they'd give us twenty-five dollars, which, in those days, was a lot of money, but, I really, the money had little to do with it. I did it because of, I thought it would help medicine. Because of that experiment, we did, they'd start giving gamma globulin to people, and I think it started with that. So, we think we did help out in the study of, of hepatitis. It was, in World War II it was the worst disease of the war. It was the thing that was causing more deaths. Part of the reason it was causing deaths, 'cause it was happening in the North African theatre, where the, they were giving them yellow fever vaccine, and it contained the virus for hepatitis, for which they did not know about. So, because of that, it became very, very difficult to get a shot for yellow fever. You had to go to New York, because ordinary procedures did not kill the, the hepatitis virus. So, we did help in that, that they changed their procedure in the yellow fever vaccine to be sure that it did not contain the hepatitis virus.

So you're saying the treatment for hepatitis—gamma globulin as a preventative—

Yes.

—for, for, came out of this specific experiment that—

It's not a preventative.

—you were apart of?

—so much as they give it to you after you get hepatitis, to make it, less severe.

Or after you're exposed to it.

And, of course, we were fortunate, and since we were checked twice a week, they caught it right away, as soon as we were ill, so, that's another thing, that in, the army boys, they didn't catch it that quick, but since we were being checked twice a week. In fact, the serum hepatitis I had, it was such a mild case I didn't know I had it until the week later. And when I went in, said, oh, you were sick last week. I said, is that so? When the infectious, when I got infectious hepatitis, I knew it. Matter of fact, you want to know a funny story?

Sure.

Dr. Kinsey, who became famous for writing the book on the sexual behavior of the adult male, came to talk to our group. And, as a, for the price of his talk, we agreed to give him interviews. So, I was the one who volunteered interviews. I've always considered myself rather blasé, and couldn't be affected by things, so I was rather embarrassed that in the interview I felt, getting all flushed. And, that made me mad at myself and I got more flushed. And, even shaking a little. And, after the interview I was quite embarrassed that it affected me this way. So, I went to bed, and I woke up middle of the night, shaking the bed. And in a way, I was a little relieved, 'cause I realized that I was really, had hepatitis, and it was not the embarrassment of the interview, but it was hepatitis. So I knew I had the infectious, and I, my fever went up to 102, or something, and I immediately went down to University of Pennsylvania and they put me to bed, and, and gave me a, a very strict diet of absolutely no fat.

Everybody uses that excuse when they see Dr. Kinsey. laughs You know. You know, I heard you were going to show us your scars. Is that true?

You want to see my scar?

laughs Yeah, let's see your scar.

[lifts up shirt, exposes belly with scar]

Yeah. It is a scar. Yes, yes.

I have a lot of fun when I get physical examinations. A lot of doctors say, what were your appendix doing up that high?

laughs

Let me ask you just a little bit about your motivation. Why, was it, it wasn't strictly the twenty, that you were going to get paid—or was it—that you were going to get paid more doing guinea pig experiments? It seems like a hard way to make a—

We didn't get paid doing guinea pig experiment. No, no.

But did you have, did you ever, another more, a reason to become a guinea pig that went beyond, did you think that was an important thing to do, or did you feel that, that was—

Of course, the guinea, I was asked to be a guinea pig when I signed up for detached service. They had made an arrangement with Byberry Hospital that we'd work four day, and two days there. I probably would never volunteer, but I was asked. And, we were, I and many others were very concerned, of course, that we had been called all kinds of names—yellow bellies, and things like that. I had volunteered for an ambulance driver and got turned down. American Field Service, they'd said they didn't want any more COs, they had too many. But, yeah, I was young, and I wanted to show that I was not a coward. So, when they offered me this chance of being the guinea pig, it fit right in with my scheme of things, of proving that I was willing to take risks on my own body, but I just did not want to kill someone else. [Interview gathered as part of The Good War and Those Who Refused to Fight It: The Story of World War II Conscientious Objectors]

What motivated you to take that position?

The—

Why did you become a conscientious objector?

It's a long story. I was brought up in a very Bible Belt community, very conservative, a Methodist, and if it hadn't been for the Epworth League and the young Methodists group, I'm sure I would never've been a CO. But we had a very active young people's group, and then the three families of us would meet every Sunday after Epworth League and have bull session, talk about all, the meaning of life and everything. Result of that, my sister went to Quaker work camp in 1939, and told me about it, and enjoyed it, so I applied in 1940. And that was my first experience outside of a very conservative Bible Belt community. And I got all excited about these radical new ideas, and I met Quakers for the first time. And then in the summer of '41, those of us who had been, the previous summer, some of us were asked to go to work camp in Mexico—all boys, no girls this time, 'cause it was hard work of doing relief work after an earthquake. While I was in Mexico, I turned twenty-one, which meant as soon as I came back to United States I had to register. So of course, all our discussion that summer was on pacifism and our approach to it. So I'm very thankful that I had that time of three months, two years in a row, where we discussed these things. So when I came back to United States, I registered as a CO. I was the, I'm sure I was the only CO from my community.

What was your community?

City Ville, Ohio. And we had a small fundamentalist Christian college, City Ville College. When I got drafted and I'd go back to college, they'd list all the people in the service, and they did not list me. As a result of this, I resigned from the Methodist church in protest. My Methodist church was very conservative, but, of course, the Methodist Youth Fellowship was a very, very powerful youth fellowship. It was just my particular community.

Did—

And so—

—oh, I'm sorry.

—I had to go all the way to the president to get my CO classification. Nobody in my county got a CO classification.

Did you consider yourself in the service? When you said that they listed everyone in the service, did you consider yourself in the U.S. military—

I certainly was drafted, and I considered myself in service, yes.

In service, but in the service, in the United States military service. Or did you?

Oh, no. We were civilians.

No, no, but, but you were considered in service—

But I was drafted, and I thought that they listed the ones who had been drafted. I was drafted.

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it that according to that—

I have a question.

Yeah, go ahead.

What part of the teaching of, motivated you to become a conscientious objector? You said you were talking about it, you had all these arguments and discussions. What were the convincing arguments for you about why you would be a conscientious objector—

I was brought up as a Christian, and the convincing argument was a Christian argument, that, there's that of God in every person, and that therefore even though you may not like the person, you do not have the right to take his or her life. That is God's prerogative. So I came at it strictly from a Christian point of view, which I have to give credit to the Methodists for.

And did people say to you, what about Hitler? How would you answer that question then, and how would you answer it now, when people say, well, what about Hitler?

Oh, of course, as has already been mentioned here, we, we spent most of our time answering, what would you do if someone raped your grandmother? I said, I got turned down on my CO application, all the way up to the president—

Of the United States?

The reason I finally got it is 'cause my hearing officer, which, when you appealed, you had to have an interview with a hearing officer. And he was, very uncooperative. And he asked me about Hitler, and about raping your grandmother, and I tried to give him my Christian philosophy, and he said, I'm writing this all down, just give me one sentence. And it's very hard to give your philosophy of life and Christianity in one sentence. So I got turned down by presidential appeal board, and usually that means the end, so I was prepared to go to prison. By pure luck, I happened to go through Washington, D.C. with a friend of mine, who was taking me home from a camp in the East, and I had a day to waste. And so I went over to the National Service Board for Religious Objectors and said, is there anything I can do? I've been turned down by presidential appeal board. And in talking, I mentioned the name of my hearing officer, and that changed everything. That, he had a national reputation, even with the Selective Service. And so as soon as they got that name, they called up Selective Service, the NSBRO did, and told them about me, and, and, lo and behold, they said, we'll re-open the case. And so then I got my 4-E.

You said you went as high as the president. Of the United States, or of your—

It, it was called the presidential appeal. It, what, it's, it worked very much like the court system in that the Supreme Court does not have to take cases. It only takes those it wants to. The presidential appeal did not have to take appeal, it only took those it wanted to. And they turned down my, listening to my appeal. So, what was re-opened was they would consider my case. When they considered my case, I got the 4-E.

And do you, in fifty years, looking back—well, more than fifty years now—have you ever regretted the decision you'd made?

Never in my life. The, I consider my Byberry colleagues a stronger alumni association than I do my schools, and I feel much closer to them. Because here we, I met boys of the same opinion I had for the first time. And, I felt very, very strongly attached to that. And we have many reunions.

OK, you still continue to have reunions?

We still continue to have reunions.

OK, that's great. That might be something. How many, how many of you are still around? Are you, a lot of you around the area here?

Well, they, they come from afar. We have, forty to fifty come to reunion. We have them about every other year.

Uh-huh. Will you be having one in the next year or so?

Yes.

Huh. We should see if—

We had one just two years ago.

Two years ago. So you might have one this year?

Yes.

I think we've pretty much wrapped up what we—and we have somebody waiting.

Hey, it—

That was good. Thank you very much.