I don't remember when I first saw Malcolm X, but I I know where it was. It was at the corner of a hundred and twenty-fifth street and Seventh Avenue. He was speaking to a group of people.

He was speaking of the corner of a hundred twenty-fifth street and Seventh Avenue. There was a large crowd; I'd say a couple of thousand people there. I was later of course to see him in much larger crowds. Ah, and what impression did he make upon me? A good BG 2603 impression. [2599 I thought he was an eloquent speaker, um, but not nearly the impression he made later on as I got to know him better. I went to meetings at the mosque to hear him speak there in a more intimate surrounding and then saw him- I watched him develop as a speaker. ]2633

I'd been a member of the N.A.A.C.P. since I was a child. I was active in the Freedom Movement as a matter of fact 'til last year. We celebrated thirtieth anniversary. I was honored to be one of the speakers at on the thirtieth anniversary of the freedom rides. I was deeply involved, as you may know, in the freedom rides. With regard to Malcolm X, I was then involved in the BG 2691 N.A.A.C.P. and I was then and am now an integrationist. By that I mean simply that [2700 I do not believe that African Americans are going to be able to command the kind of power we need to educate our children to find jobs and have better neighborhoods if we isolate ourselves, and only have black schools, black neighborhoods. Ah, I think the integration is a better method to go. Now, not

I really, I don't understand. You say the organization .. was a--

I don't know that the incident had any particular impact upon the community. You've got to remember those are volatile times and so many things were happening at that time. I'm not sure all of the

Oh, I think that Malcolm X was recognized far bef- as a force in the community long before that.

Yes! Yes, the Muslims had been seen as- [3004 when Mis- Minister Malcolm began collecting people...in such large numbers out on the street, as opposed to that which had been done thus far by the black nationalists where maybe a few hundred people would gather and sometime maybe a thousand .... but here began to bring [phone ring] one thousand, two thousand, three thousand, five thousand [ring], filling the street from a hundred and twenty-sixth street to hundred and twenty-fourth street BG 3045 and filling from Eighth Avenue to Seventh Avenue. Uh, nothing is- was seen like that before. Not when you- even as compared- perhaps was not as large as when Mandela came to New York Harlem. ]3060

--my ever having a discuss- at this moment I don't recall ever having a discussion with Minister Malcolm about my work in the N.A.A.C.P. Um, I was his lawyer. And I attended his meetings. Ah, I did not- I was not there trying to convert him. I was not there trying to BG 3143 give my point of view. He had heard me give my point of view in other gatherings which he attended. Uh, he had heard me- had had come to gathering places, various BG 3164 gatherings where I was speaking and he had heard me. But never on a one to one did I feel an obligation or nei-

I remember the sense of disturbance that I carried when Mister Johnson, President Johnson had a BG 3237 gathering ... eh at the White House um and nothing- eh, I'm sorry. The gathering was at the White House but Minister Malcolm did not go to the White House. I took h1m with me. I invited him and he attended with me a national gathering held on civil rights in Washington, BG 3260 D.C. He did not stay long. He didn't commit himself to stay long. But he went there just to accompany me. Ah, and--

--couple of hours. There was an interesting reaction.

Excitement.

I've heard people say that I don't--

ah, I remember having meetings with Jackie Robinson. Ah, I remember the meeting with ah with Whitney Young. I remember him going- his going with me to Albany when I was inducted, ah, when I was sworn in as a an assemblyman after I'd won an election. An election in which he worked. That I- those things I

Of course, like--

everyone else familiar to the public.

Ah, I don't remember any great concentration of his discussions with regard to his--

the civil rights leaders. Or of civil rights BG 3365 leaders. Or human rights leaders.

I've always felt-

[3415 I've always felt that leaders select their venue in which to work. Minister Malcolm selected his and he was extremely good in that venue. He brought a number BG 3437 of people to positive thinking in that venue. He brought a number of people from doing things that were not constructive to being constructive in their lives. I had no particular desire ...

... or need to suggest that Minister Malcolm should be in a coalition with Adam Clayton Powell, or BG 3480 with ah Whitney Young, or with Jackie Robinson or with anyone else whether local or national in their stature as leaders. ]3491

This only developed in his early development in the fifties.

Late fifties.

Um the police were here ...

And we'll honor the people.

And you see what I don't to ever make police brutality to something that was a principal focus of his speech.

Yeah ...

You ready now?

Yeah. I don't recall Minister Malcolm making police brutality the principal focus of his speech. He was able, however, to weave the issue of police brutality, eh--

Ah, [3616 I don't remember ... that Minister Malcolm ever made police brutality as a principal focus of his speeches. What I did see, however, was a beautiful BG 3641 weaving of the issue of police brutality in the fabric of the

And we're orderly people. One of the way he...

And you'd have to smile because what he was doing- he did in fact want to keep order because--

--it was not in his best interest that there be disorder.

He wanted also to say in front of the police people who were present that there was the fact of brutality, police brutality.

But he wove it as a part of the entire speech which would deal with the uplifting of the individual and a world situation as it was at that time. ]3752

Well, I don't remember. [3789 I've been asked a number of times, eh, did I see Minister Malcolm change. Ah, yeah I saw him grow. By that I meant I saw him grow and become much more sophisticated in his speech. I saw him, ah, his cadence and his speech pattern change. I I saw his, I-I watched him as he embraced a variety of other things with the sophistication that he had not had before.

I saw all of that. ]3835 Ah, with regard to civil rights, I heard his comments with regard to civil rights. Public comments with regards to civil rights leaders. Eh, and as I may have mentioned to you that I did not, however, hear him in the intimacy of a gathering, when I would be discussing things with him, attack civil rights leaders. [3864 Did BG 3867 he grow? Yes, he did grow. He grew significantly. Eh, with the- as his involvement in the civil rights movement, ah I can only say that I was deeply involved BG 3887 in the civil rights movement, and he was helpful to me. I was deeply involved in politics, and he was helpful to me. ]3895

As his lawyer, I don't think it's in my- eh I don't think, for me to say was I surprised.

Ah, for if I say I was surprised, then I would not have been, [3937 I think, y-you recall that I didn't just represent him. I represented the Muslims.

As a whole. ]3951 Ah, eh that does not mean there weren't other lawyers also representing the Muslims. But, they, I don't really- Elijah Muhammad was a leader. BG 3969 Minister Malcolm was his spokesperson. So when I've been asked that question before, what did I think of it, I've not answered that question. And I don't wish to answer it now.

I had discussions with him. But I had discussions with him as a lawyer. Had some method by which I thought it ought to be done.

I don't think it was difficult at all. It didn't, it didn't seem difficult at all.

If we're talking about the machinations of the mind--

Ah, you ask me how difficult it was. I said I didn't think it's difficult at all.

Eh, it's an open. Uh. Records can be ah searched.

Ah, when Minister Malcolm--

--was invited by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the head of the black Muslim movement at that time, ah invited to leave the house. Requested, and BG 4138 finally a s- complaint was brought. A petition was brought in civil court in Queens County. To remove him. Our defense was very simple. And had we not had a bigoted judge, we would have succeeded. That is just theirs.

There is no law covering Muslims, black BG 4177 Muslims, specific law. There are no specific regulations covering black Muslims. There was a contractual relationship, however. And that can- and, I'm sorry, in addition to there being non competent[?] w- internal laws and internal regulations, there was no state regulations. And in the absence of a state regulation, the religious law would apply. And the religious law would c- would of called for a hearing to have been had before he could be evicted. I- and no hearing was ever had. And that was

... was very definitely anti- opposed to Malcolm. That didn't mean he was for black Muslims. But here was this dignified, strong black man that this judge has heard a BG 4259 lot about because he was a New York City judge and this w- the principal focus of Malcolm X's activity was in New York City. ]4274

[4275 Here's this weak judge ....

.... before- having this strong man sitting before him. He was angry. He was angry at Malcolm X.

And the nature of this question... reflected that

It was very difficult, of course.

He prejudged us. ]4308

He did not do any crime it in the trial

there was no- there was no case for that. And ah it's not a part of the record.

We were the defendant.

Well, that's not my recollection.

Oh yes, yes. I remember that quite vividly. 4389 Ah, ah this is the story of Omar the Slave. Ah[, who, we were leaving court one day, ah, and on this particular day, we

During the late day light hours and made it to sunset.

And be free. And he said, so Mal- M- Master did give the horse, the master's horse. And Omar did BG 4520 ride. And he rode for three days just before sunset on the third day....

We were leaving court as usual during the course of the trial with regard to whether or not Minister Malcolm could remain in the house that he occupied once he was dismissed by Minister Elijah Muhammad. I shouldn't call him Minister Mod'-, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. Uhm, we were leaving court, I was surrounded on each side by armed guards, people shotguns, pistols BG 5078 were i'-, in his front seat of the car. In the rear seat of the car was, sat Minister Malcolm with two people, one on each side uh

[[5346 The strength of his conviction, his eloquence, the fact that he lived the life that he wanted other people to live, was honest, he was high moral turpitude, and he really would like to save the world. ]]5392 And by that I meant he believed that if you obeyed the rules of Allah, uh and when I say the rules of Allah, I meant if you uhm followed the belief of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, BG 5425 if you followed the god Allah, then you would be a good person, and good people related well to each other. But, that was not to be, 5452[ and so [he was teaching black people to be strong, to be moral, to stay away from drugs, to stay away from crime, to protect their families, to provide an education for their family, he was strong on education, uh provide housing, but to do this you need to build an economy as well. So, he was a BG 5497 teacher, yes, Malcolm was a teacher at all times, whether in public or in private, he was the teacher. ]]5508

[5524 Well, I looked in the mirror every morning anyway myself, and I knew I was black every morning. I tell that story that uh, that I always knew and he did make you look at yourself, but as for me, on a personal basis, uh I say all of the time, and I say it to this day that every morning, every black BG 5557 person, when he or she looks in the mirror, must know that before the day ends, some little indignity is going to occur, somebody is going to say something. So if any person who is black tries to ignore that he or she is black and tries to pull away from the rest of us, they'll find something in the course of the day to remind them they're black. ]]5591 With regard to Minister Malcolm, looking in the mirror, causing people to look in the mirror, uh [[5601 Minister Malcolm was a penetrating BG 5605 person in his views and the expression of his views. Uh, and he, he knew how to upset you if your views were different from his, but

And that's important because of all of the interests that we now have in Minister Malcolm. I must tell you it's just, it's, it's disturbed me a bit uhm, the irony of it all, that [[5701 after the assassination of Minister Malcolm and my brother Oliver, and myself, and there's very few others were attempting Betty! to raise the money to go on radio and to ask people to get into the newspapers, to ask people to contribute to a fund for the buying BG 5735 of a house for Minister Malcolm, the educating of his children, we got such a poor response. [Had there not been this strong

Uh, [[5915 I was charged with making the funeral arrangements for uh Minister uh and I wanted our first choice was Abyssinian Baptist Church because the pastor of that church was Adam Clayton Powell. It hurt me that Adam Clayton Powell denied us the use of Abyssinian Baptist Church. He was afraid, and he said so, uh that there would be violence, and he was not prepared for it. ]]5983 The reason he, he felt that, I'm sure as a BG 5990 number of others, he was honest enough to say it, Adam was. Others that we called, and we, I must tell you I called some eight churches ...

Yeah.

I contacted eight or more churches 'till finally I went where I should have gone initially, and that is to a bishop called Bishop Childs from the Church of God and Christ on Amsterdam Avenue up Amsterdam Avenue in the burrow bourogh of Manhattan and from there we had the funeral. And of course uh anybody who has heard the speech, or was BG 6067 there at the funeral uh has got the masterful delivery of the man who made the speech. It was beautiful at the funeral. I'm talking

Oh, sure.

Can you go off camera for a second? I don't know anything spectacular about that. What did you ...

When I speak of ...

When I speak of Minister Malcolm and his moral turpitude, uh I also embrace family values. [[6161 Minister Malcolm was deeply involved with his family. The love that you saw him exhibit when he was around his wife, his child, uh his children, uh was the love that only a person who was at peace with himself and felt the strength of the need to protect his family could give. Fascinating, the experience one would go through as you saw BG 6206 Minister Malcolm with his sister, Betty, as she was known, or with the children. Very warm, playful, nice, it was beautiful. ]6227

Still strong even after he, his house had been bombed. Still strong. Uhm,

He'd never, never in any point of the time that I had exposure to, identified with, represented, or been in a social contact with Minister Malcolm, did he ever reflect of sense of being desperate, nor de', despondent. And that's one of the things I admired about him. Even keel, warm, strength BG 6365 of conviction, strength of family.

I don't know that he changed uh the master speaker, the master craftsman of his development of speeches, the conviction that he had did not seem to change from my, I did not observe any change in Minister Malcolm. Now people, I've heard people say that he made change, and I've heard people say he made dramatic change, well, i'-, it's rather like from my perspective, it's ra'-, rather BG 6457 someone discovering that you're smart, and saying, "Oh, he's changed." Well, did he change, or did they change. Uhm, no, I don't know that he made any dramatic change, or even any change at all. I mentioned earlier that I saw him grow. By that I mean simply he enlarged his positions, uh his observations, and he enlarged the speaking of those observations. Now one might say that some of the observations that he uhm, when I talk about enlarging uh the observations, widening his perspective, uh, [[6525 he was so, such a well-read man you could not say that this BG 6531 occurred by reason of a trip. He cou'-, he could add to his speech that I met with King X or King Y or shake so and so or some other

I thought it was an excellent strategy.

The effort to bring the condition of, it wasn't just black America, Africa, it was colonialism. Eh, you remember of course, not everybody was free at that time. Uhm, to bring it before the United Nations. It was a master stroke on his part well thought out, well documented, and very forcefully delivered. It was practiced on the street BG 6722 corners of New York and at every gathering he would mention it.

Oh, I don't know that it ...

I don't know that he ever commented upon that in my presence. I don't recall his having commented about that in my presence.

I don't, I don't know where I was when he was assassinated, but I must have been close by because I've been asked that question enough times to think where was I when Minister Malcolm was assassinated. I don't know, 6792[ but [I remember coming to the scene and hugging Sister Betty and then going into the, eh, into the hospital there where his body was. Uh, they were still saying he was alive when I went in, and he was not BG 6819 alive. ]]6819 But where I came from, I don't know. It must not have been far distant. I remember where I was when Kennedy died, I remember where I was when King died, uh but it must have been a very few blocks away, I

These ten minutes run out quickly don't they?

Well, I'm tired right now, I'm not having too much fun right now.

How much longer do we have to go?

OK. Thank you.

Obviously [[7546 when I discovered that he was no longer alive, he was absolutely dead, [there was a sense of hurt, great sorrow, because I liked him very much. I, I, one of the things I had liked about him always because he was such a strong man, and I, I like people who are strong. I'm sympathetic to people who are weak, but I admire people who are strong, and Malcolm was a very strong BG 7592 man, and there to see him dead, no life in the body, strength all gone, was a hurting thing, eh uh some would like when later my

Do me a favor with regard to the ownership, what Malcolm had at his death, I think only Sister Betty, his widow should say that. I will tell you, however, there was a need to raise money to buy a home and to

Yeah, I just don't want to deal with the will portion of it uh and in fact that's a, a shaky ground, and I don't someone to say, "Jesus Christ he was his lawyer and told all of his business." 7770[ Uhm, [at his death, Minister Malcolm had given so much during his BG 7784 life, there was virtually nothing to support his family at his death. He did not accumulate a fortune, he did not accumulate money as, during his lifetime. He was not a greedy person, he was not even a person who uh thought about tomorrow] and what will happen in the sense of, I mean during all the period of his uh, uh ministry, uh which of course, to s his loss he did have some concerns, 7833[[ there were threats, there was BG 7838 concern about his living and his family but there was not time before he was assassinated

Yeah, uh Minister Malcolm was not in Harlem at the time. Minister Malcolm was abroad on one of his trips uh to Africa and BG 7943 uh the Islamic world uh, you know, during our riots in 1964. And I remember people saying, "If Malcolm was here, he would do this." And uh I was, I had gotten a local radio station

Well, I felt strong enough about that which was happening, the destruction of our neighborhood to have made the application

I wasn't any big winner you understand during that time. I was losing elections, I was either running myself or running Charlie Rangle, who is now the Congress mer'-, person here, uh working with Vassal Patterson, active in the NAACP, but losing elections year after year after year BG 8200 from 1953 until 1964. Uh when I finally won. Uh, but 8209[ uh [[with regard to uh going on stage and sitting with Minister Malcolm, I felt comfortable doing it uh I liked him, he invited me to be there, and even when uh Elijah Muhammad came, I was invited, and I went uh because I, I've always felt that I'm sufficiently secure within myself, that I can be for something. Before integration, before the NAACP, because I saw the NAACP as the principle vehicle for bringing about change, for providing for the common good of black BG 8270 people.] There were other people who had other views and than I, they'll be all contributed to the day of liberation whether it was a communist party,] whether it was the black pull continues

Sometimes known as Malcolm X.

I don't recall any response at all to it.

I really don't.

After Malcolm was separated from the black Muslim movement by the dictator of, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, uh you know that he organized a new organization and that he, a number of people were involved. I was one of those persons involved with him in that

Yeah. Only vaguely 'cause I, I remember someone asked me after I talked to you uh so uh, I don't remember with such clarity that I want to comment upon it.

No, I think it was a purely personal thing. Uh, I, I do know a number of people ask him, "Would you come and help me as well?" Uh, he did not. Uh, I don't know how he uh made his decision, but I, it was a personal thing, he was helping me, uh, I don't see it as a declaration he was making to, you know, get involved in politics as a whole.

No, no, no. And I, I never heard him express any interest in running or supporting anybody else. Uh, I think he was just helping his friend, Percy Sutton, as he termed it, as when he spoke, my friend, Percy Sutton, my lawyer.

Oh sure.

Yes.

I don't want to interpret how he saw it, I can only tell you that I thought he was uh brilliant in his delivery as a "Ballot of the bullet." Uh, what he was really addressing himself to, wasn't it, was it not, that uh either you get, permit blacks to be involved so they can help control their own destiny. Or you're either gonna have to kill

[[8863 What did Minister Malcolm leave? He left a widow how uh beautiful woman of high intelligence, a strong woman who then took children, who were not yet born, twins that were not yet born, reared them together with the then existing children at the time of his death, educated those children with a dignity unlike that which you normally see. Uh, he left a lot of people wearing X's on their skull caps, X's on their bicycle caps without any understanding of what Malcolm X was, and he left other people who were well-grounded BG 8942 in who Malcolm X was, he left a sense of eloquence that one would want to mimic, he left a sense of strength that others would want to follow, and he left, I think most of