Interview with <hi rend="bold">Ahmed Osman</hi>

Interview with <hi rend="bold">Ahmed Osman</hi> [electronic resource] Creation of machine-readable version (transcriptions of formal taped interviews): The Film and Media Archive at Washington University Libraries Conversion to TEI-conformant markup: 2018 Digital Library Services at Washington University Libraries Washington University in St. Louis Washington University Libraries Special Collections and Archives, Film and Media Archive St. Louis, Missouri

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osm.1993.0024

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2018 Recording by Blackside, Inc. Production Team

Interview with <hi rend="bold">Ahmed Osman</hi> Interviewer: Interviewee Ahmed Osman Interview gathered as part of Malcolm X. This interview recorded as formal filmed interview.

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Library of Congress Subject Headings, 21st edition, 1998 English created TEI transcript Interview with Ahmed Osman Interviewer: Interview Date: January 24, 1993 Camera Rolls: Sound Rolls: Interview gathered as part of Malcolm X. Produced by Blackside, Inc. Housed at the Washington University Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection. Editorial Notes:

Preferred citation: Interview with Osman Ahmed, conducted by Blackside, Inc. on January 24, 1993, for Malxolm X. Washington University Libraries, Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection.

BLACKSIDE, INC. 1 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 BOX #127 CODE: FD 5000-7027 DATE:01/24/93 CR224, SR 109 TK1 CR:224 SR:109

WE'VE STILL FILM HERE RIGHT NOW. SPEEDING. TAKE FILM.

Q: DESCRIBE FOR ME -- AND YOU LOOK AT ME. DESCRIBE FOR ME FIRST MEETING MALCOLM AND UH PAINT A PICTURE OF THAT SCENE AND HOW IT HAPPENED AS TIGHT AS YOU CAN.

FD5037 OSMAN:

5037[ My first encounter with Malcolm X was in the summer of 1963. ]5048 At that time I was a student at Dartmouth College and I was working during the summer with the Marine Midland Bank in Wall Street area. It happened that one of my Sudanese friends was visiting me New York and he asked me to show him around New York City. So I told him, well let us go to Harlem. 5080[While we were walking on a Sunday afternoon, we came across Mohammed's Temple Number Seven. [I used to hear of Malcolm but I never met him. This is at uh until that time. So I asked my friend,

BLACKSIDE, INC. 2 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 5104

"Let us go in and hear Malcolm." So when we entered we were searched by the Fruit of Islam and we were welcomed to the Mosque. ]5119 In fact, at that time used, they used to be called temples. When we entered, it happened that Malcolm was speaking. We sat down, we heard his speech and he was really a remarkable orator and after his speech, he opened the floor for questions. 5154[I stood up, introduced myself and my friend and told the audience that we are your Muslim brothers FD 5165 from Sudan. And I told him that we are Muslims and as our prophet said, "We are like one building, each part is strengthening the other part." The audience was quite pleased with us. Then I turned to Brother Malcolm. I told him, "Brother, I do differ with you in certain interpretations of Islam." I told him that, "You had accepted Islam because Islam is the only religion which has been FD 5215able to mold so many different races and nationalities into one brotherhood without any distinction of race, nationality or color. And as such, you cannot really

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condemn any people on account of their color." When I said this, the audience was really mad at me but Brother Malcolm asked them, "Let him speak up his mind. I have been to the Sudan," he said. "I met beautiful brothers and sisters in Omdraman." But he said, "When I went to Kartoum, I met the white devils there," meaning Europeans. Anyway I ask ... I challenge him to show me FD 5280 anything in the Koran which condemns any race or any nationality. So it was a heated discussion. Afterwards, he invited us to a Salaam restaurant where we had tea with him. And we took each other addresses and we started our correspondence since that that time. ]5308

Q: OK. NOW, TELL ME, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR, THE NATURE OF YOUR CORRESPONDENCE. WHAT KINDS OF THINGS DID YOU TALK IN YOUR CORRESPONDENCE. LOOSEN UP A LITTLE BIT. YOU'RE A LITTLE BIT...

OSMAN:

A bit tense?

BLACKSIDE, INC. 4 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111

Q: YEAH, YOU LOOK TENSE.

FD 5329 OSMAN:

Uh, uh. 5329[ When I started correspondence with him, I started sending him some pamphlets and books about the basic tenets of Islam and I started writing to him on the, on the question of humanity, on the question of oneness and unity of mankind under Islam. And uh he started answering my questions. He was very pleased with receiving the pamphlets I sent to him.]5375 And he told me in fact he wanted more pamphlets FD 5381 to distribute to the brothers and sisters. Starting with his second letter he started asking me to interpret certain verses from the Koran. This was very significant because when I received this letter, I knew that something great was unfolding itself on Malcolm. That he was becoming or he started questioning some of the beliefs he held which FD 5426 we as Muslims thought were contrary to the tenets of Islam. Also, it happened that 5439[ I met him quite a number of times and the Friday Players at the Islamic Center on

BLACKSIDE, INC. 5 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 5448

Riverside Drive. He used to come and play with us in that mosque. And the director of the mosque at that time, Dr. Mamuhad Shuarbi, he was quite a scholar of Islam, he also used to sit down with him and give him interpretation of Islam and correct what we used to think a distorted image of Islam that was being spread by the Nation of Islam.]5487

Q: CAN WE STOP FOR ONE SECOND? NOW HE STARTED COMING TO THE MOSQUE ON RIVERSIDE DRIVE ON RIVERSIDE DRIVE. LET ME KNOW WHEN THIS IS GOING ON. IS THIS HAPPENING WHILE HE IS STILL IN THE NATION OF ISLAM? UM UH GIVE ME A SENSE OF WHEN THAT IS GOING ON.

FD 5506 OSMAN:

Yes, he used to come to the mosque...

Q: START AGAIN. WHO, WHO ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? MALCOLM?

OSMAN:

Yeah. [5513 Uh, [Brother Malcolm he used to come on Friday prayers from I mean occasionally at the Islamic Center on One

BLACKSIDE, INC. 6 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111

Riverside Drive. I met him quite a number of FD 5531 times in that mosque. After the prayer he used to sit down with me and Dr. Mahumed Shuarbi and talk about different issues, different aspects of Islam. Since what we thought were incorrect in their beliefs in their beliefs in the Nation of Islam. So his association with orthodox Muslims in fact started much earlier than his pilgrimage to Mecca.]5570

Q: OK UM WERE YOU UM SURPRISED WHEN MALCOLM WAS SILENCED BY THE NATION OF ISLAM ULTIMATELY LEFT?

FD 5591 OSMAN:

5591[ In fact [it was quite a surprise for us that the Nation of Islam would silence a person like Malcolm who was a backbone of the Nation of Islam. And who was really the advocate of its message to the outside world because most of the people came to know about the Nation of Islam through Malcolm X. I myself I had little information about the Nat ion of Islam and most of the information I

BLACKSIDE, INC. 7 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 5635

used to receive was from what Brother Malcolm used to say. And also from the paper that he founded that is Muhammed He Speaks. In fact this paper was a kind of uh a international for us Africans because it was the only paper which used to bring in fullness what was going on on the African continent. And as such a lot African students used to read it used to listen to Brother Malcolm because the FD 5678 aspirations of the Africans in the 1960s were really voiced and aired by Malcolm. He was the only one who was projecting a true picture of what was going on in Africa in the 1960s.]5703

Q: DID UM DID YOU SPEAK WITH UH BROTHER MALCOLM UH AT ANY TIME AROUND HIS DISMISSAL FROM THE NATION OF ISLAM? DID YOU GET ANY SENSE OF WHAT HOW HE FELT ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON AND UM WHAT HE PLANNED TO DO?

FD 5722 OSMAN:

It was only one encounter in which he was quite of course depressed and disappointed at his silence. He was thinking

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that he was going to come back after the FD 5737 silence of the 90 days and when the si... I mean uh the silence was not lifted he knew for sure that there was something going on to offset him from the Nation of Islam. So 5763[ myself, and Dr. Makmuded Shuarbi, we started pressing on him to make the pilgrimage to Mecca because we knew for sure that this experience of the Haj is going to bring a new rebirth of Malcolm ]5786 and in fact it did.

Q: TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT UM DISCUSSION TO MALCOLM UM LEADING UP TO HIS DECISION TO GO ON THE HAJ. AND HOW DID HE END UP GOING ON THE HAJ? YOU KNOW WHO HELPED HIM? WHAT KIND OF THINGS WHAT WERE PREPARED HERE IN THE STATES SO HE GO TO THE BAJ? GO ON

FD 5815 OSMAN:

5816[ Malcolm had no resources except that was coming to him from the Nation of Islam. So when he was ousted from the movement he absolutely had no outside resource. So when he decided to make the pilgrimage he went to his sister Ella in Boston who always used to

BLACKSIDE, INC. 9 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 5847

stand next to him throughout his life. He had told that he wanted to make the pilgrimage to Mecca and that he wanted some finance. Sister Ella was saving the money to make the pilgrimage by her... oh uh to make herself the pilgrimage to Mecca. But she was kind enough give preference to Malcolm and she gave him the money to make the pilgrimage to Mecca.]5885 And in fact Malcolm after he went to Mecca he wrote to her from there thanking her for the help she give to him to make it possible for him to make the pilgrimage to Mecca.

Q: NOW ISN'T IT NECESSARY TO BE UH CONSIDERED A MUSLIM TO TAKE TO DO THE HAJ? UH WAS MALCOLM AS A MEMBER OF THE NATION OF ISLAM CONSIDERED ACTUALLY A MUSLIM AND WAS THERE A CONTROVERSY ABOUT THAT OR SOME PROBLEM WITH THAT UM LEADING UP TO MAKING THAT YOU HAVE TO RECONCILE BEFORE YOU GO?

FD 5941 OSMAN:

Well, Dr. Makmudad Shuarbi who was the Director of the Islamic Center in New

BLACKSIDE, INC. 10 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111

York City, he made all the paper arrangements in getting the visa for him to go to the pilgrimage to Mecca. And when he went there FD 5961 he went before the Court of the Haj and a he took the declaration on the oneness of God and that Muhammed Hebna Adullah is the last prophet of Islam so he took the shehaddah which converted him into an orthodox Muslim before going into the haj. So all that was clear before he went through the process of making the pilgrimage.

Q: WHAT UM WHAT DO YOU THINK MALCOLM'S OR DID YOU EVER TALK WITH MALCOLM ABOUT HIS EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT THE HAJ WOULD BE LIKE AND THEN WHEN HE WELL WE'LL PICK UP ON IT...THE CHANGE. WHAT I WANT TO DO IS TALK ABOUT HIS EXPECTATIONS OF THE HAJ AND THEN WHAT YOU SAW FROM HIM.

CAMERA ROLE 225 TAKE TWO

TK2 CR:225 SR:109

Q: TALK TO ME ABOUT THE UM EXPECTATIONS MALCOLM MIGHT HAVE HAD OF THE HAJ HIS

BLACKSIDE, INC. 11 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111

EXPECTATIONS AND WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM HIM WHEN HE CAME BACK AND HOW THEY MIGHT HAVE CHANGED IN TERMS OF WHAT HE EXPECTED AND WHAT HE EXPERIENCED.

FD 6044 OSMAN:

Malcolm's social interaction while he was in America was only within the Nation of Islam. Within the black people. Although he was one of the most-wanted speakers on white campuses. But his social interaction was only with black people. When he went to Mecca for pilgrimage his social interaction was with all the races. In fact the first FD 6088 person he met was the late Dr. Abdara Man Hazam whom he considered as a white person. So this was a kind of a fatal shock to him that a person whom he considered white who was the blondest of blond who had the blue eyes who act in such a brotherly way even to give him his suite at Genta(?) Palace Hotel. FD 6127 So this was a kind of a fatal shock or eye opener to him. Also when he arrived there even from the time he boarded the plane in Cairo going to Jeddeh, he was sitting next to

BLACKSIDE, INC. 12 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111

people who were Muslims but who were whites. FD 6153 So he started having a different feeling from the time he boarded the plane in Cairo going to Jeddeh. When he arrived there in the (unintel) terminal before being put in touch with Dr. Hazam 6175[ he stayed with pilgrims coming from different countries. From Asia, from Africa, from the Middle East who were there in brotherly demonstration not looking at each other as black and whites but as human beings.]6201 So this was in dis con this was in contrast and a clear distinction to the FD 6213 experience through which he was going in the United States. Because even when I telling beeps him first in the mosque in Harlem 6225[ he used to tell me look here brother, you people in Africa are in the Muslim world. You have not gone through the four hundred years of slavery through which the black people have gone in this country. And as such, your FD 6251 experience with the white man is different from what we have known in this country. But I was telling him that you are speaking as a Muslim and as such you have to associate with

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all human beings as brothers irrespective of their color or race.]6285

Q: NOW DO YOU THINK THAT DO YOU FEEL IN TALKING WITH HIM WHEN RETURNED THAT THIS FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED HIS SENSE OF WHITE PEOPLE IN AMERICA? OR DOES THIS HAVE A OR IS THIS SOMETHING A CHANGE HAS TO DO WITHIN A MUSLIM CONTEXT AND ISLAMIC CONTEXT BUT NOT NECESSARILY IN THE CONTEXT OF A CHRISTIAN AMERICA?

FD 6318 OSMAN:

Uh, when he returned to United States from the moment that he arrived at the airport Malcolm announced his new platform. His new conversion to the orthodox Islam, his new look to the race issue and as such when he came he was a changed person. In fact I remember that 6352[ we invited him at Dartmouth one month before as assassinated and he was pronouncing his new stand on the race issue, FD 6366 his new stand on the Muslim religion and in fact he said in his own words in his own words that, "I feel obligated to correct the

BLACKSIDE, INC. 14 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 6381 OSMAN:

distorted image of Islam I have been spreading for so many years." But at the same time he was a realist. He said that when I am in the United States I am not dealing with people who are as brotherly as I found in the Muslim world. And as such he was facing new realities in the United States and the strategy he was advocating was a strategy of not condemning any person or any race on account of color but on account of their deeds an account of what they do.]6438

Q: MALCOLM GOES TO THE MIDDLE EAST HE TAKES THAT FIRST TRIP HE THEN GOES TO COUNTRIES IN AFRICA. WHY DOES MALCOLM BECOME UM SUCH A A UM ACCEPTED UM PERSONALITY YOU KNOW IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES AS AN INTERNATIONAL FIGURE? WHAT MAKES HIM STAND ABOVE OTHERS WHO ARE DOING SIMILAR KINDS OF TRAVELS BUT WHY MALCOLM? WHY DOES MALCOLM BECOME THE ONE THAT THE PEOPLE IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES ESPECIALLY LEADERSHIP BEGIN TO GRAB ONTO AND ASSOCIATE WITH?

BLACKSIDE, INC. 15 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 6490 OSMAN:

Malcolm was considered in Africa in the Middle East and in Asia as a representative of what you can say the third world people. He was looked at as a Muslim leader in the United States. He was looked as somebody who was airing the aspirations of the Afro nations and as one remembers 6529[the 1960s were years of liberation on the African continent. So the Africans wanted their voice to be heard in the United States. As one remembers in the 1960s they were colonial FD 6550 interventions in the Congo, struggle was going on in Namimbia in Guinea Bissau, in Mozambique, in South Africa and the only voice who was really echoing the aspirations of Africans and the Muslims in the United States and the western media was Brother Malcolm. So as such people were associating with him because he was the one who was FD 6590 championing their cause. He was the one was speaking on behalf of the people who were looking for freedom and liberation. At the same time,] Muslims in the Muslim countries all over the Muslim world were seeing him as

BLACKSIDE, INC. 16 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 6614

a leader on his own account and as such he was accepted as a Muslim and as one knows Islam transcends all political boundaries, all nationalitites and all geographic boundaries.]6638 So wherever he went he was accepted as a Muslim leader from the United States. 6647[He was accorded the status of a state leader in all the countries where he went and as such we really saw in him a FD 6665 somebody who represented the aspirations of the Africans of the Asians and of the Muslims not only in the United States but in the whole of the western world.]6682

Q: TALK TO ME ABOUT THE HAJ ITSELF. UH, UM DESCRIBED TO ME WHAT IT IS. ITS FUNDAMENTAL IMPORTANCE FOR UM UH A MUSLIM A PERSON WHO IS AN ORTHODOX MUSLIM UM UH AND WHAT HIS EXPERIENCE WHEN ONE UM PERFORMS A HAJ, TAKES THE HAJ.

FD 6718 OSMAN:

6717[ The HAJ is the fifth pillar of Islam. Any Muslim who is capable of having enough material resources and the health is required

BLACKSIDE, INC. 17 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 6737

to make the pilgrimage to Mecca once in his lifetime.]6742 In this pilgrimage there is a manifestation of the oneness and the unity of the human beings. In fact 6758[when a person performs a haj, there are certain rituals through which he has to go. All people have to dress in the same simple way and as such you cannot distinguish during the haj any people on account of their status on account of their material status on account of their FD 6794 family status on account of their national origin. It is a demonstration of human brotherhood.]6804 And I was fortunate enough to make this pilgrimage in 1965 with Sister Betty Shabbazz, the wife of Brother Malcolm and in our group when we went from the United States there were British pilgrims, there were French pilgrims, there were German pilgrims and there were African pilgrims. We FD 6838 were the only American pilgrims in that season. And we were living like brothers and sisters without any distinction of our national origin of our race or our nationality.

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Q: OKAY LET'S TIGHT THIS SOME MORE.

TK3 C.R. 275 S.R. 109

TAKE THREE

Q: YOU MENTIONED LETTERS BEFORE. WHAT HE ASKED YOU TO DO TO INTERPRET THE KORAN BY 51. WHAT WAS THAT WHAT WAS HE ASKING YOU TO TALK TO GIVE AN INTERPRETATION OF?

FD 6896 OSMAN:

6896[ That verse in that he asked me to interpret to him was a verse he read to me when we first met in the mosque when I told him that in Islam there is no distinction between races and that there is no condemning of any race. So I challenged him to show me any support from the Koran for his statements so he read for me that verse from the Koran which he felt he misinterpreted it. In which FD 6947 there was the word blue and uh he thought that this word blue meant the blue eyed, the blue-eyed devils. And I told him that was a misinterpretation of Islam. That was a misinterpretation of the verse. And that the

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reference there was the wrongdoers were going to be herded into hell and as such out of fear in all their color would turn blue. And as such it was not intended to refer to a particular race.]6991

Q: OKAY. UM NOW WHEN WERE YOU UM AWARE OF THE The ESCALATING PROBLEMS MALCOLM WAS HAVING WITH THE NATION OF ISLAM? AND IN ANY WAY WERE YOU IN CONTACT WITH HIM AND DISCUSSING THIS OR OKAY LET'S CUT.

OSMAN:

Mm.. That part I had...

L# 7027 BLACKSIDE, INC. 20 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 7500 BOX #128 CODE:FD 7500-9557 CR 226 AND CR 227 TK 4 CR:226 SR:110 MISC OSMAN:

There are some interesting things here you know. Uh when he speaks uh also about uh Elijah Muhammed the most senior Allah was the head of the conservative group, less militant the conservative group.

IS THAT THERE. YEAH.

TAKE ROLL.

Q: UM MALCOLM COMES TO DARTMOUTH AND HE BEGINS TO TEACH HE TALKS ABOUT HIS OWN RESPONSIBILITY IN TERMS OF TEACHINGS OF ISLAM IN TERMS OF RECTIFYING THE UM THE UM BEST TEACHINGS HE THAT HE THINKS ARE TAKING PLACE BUT ALSO HE TALKS ABOUT ELIJAH MUHAMMED AND NATION OF ISLAM AS YOU WOULD YOU SAY THE RADICALS AND THE ULTRA-RADICALS AND.

BLACKSIDE, INC. 21 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 OSMAN:

He has a militants and the militant militants.

Q: OKAY TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT AND WHAT HE'D SAY AS TIGHT AS YOU CAN. GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHERE HE'S AT AT THAT TIME OF HIS LIFE AND WHEN IT'S A MONTH BEFORE IT'S LIKE IN JANUARY OF 65.

FD 7584 OSMAN:

Uh, uh. Malcolm was invited to Dartmouth College on January 19, 1965. And when he came he spoke at the Spaulding Auditorium and uh he explained his new stand as far as Islam is concerned, his new conversion to orthodox Islam and that he felt obliged to correct the distorted image of Islam he has been he was spreading for so many years. But he also talked about his uh FD 7635 split from Elijah Muhammed and he noticed that two groups were developing within the Nation of Islam. The militants and the militant militants. The militants or the conservative faction this was a hierarchy headed by Elijah Muhammed who didn't want to

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rock the boat. And then there was a faction called the militant militants which included him and this was a group which was asking for some action. And that there was a kind of a split between these two groups and many people in the Nation were seeing his popularity as a threat to their leadership.

Q: NOW WHEN YOU SAY ACTION WHAT KIND WHAT DOES HE MEAN BY ACTION? HOW DO YOU DEFINE ACTION AT THAT TIME?

FD 7709 OSMAN:

The Nation of Islam was not really involved in the civil rights movement although it was involved in constructive social and economic uplifting of the African Americans but it shunned any kind of actual involvement in demonstrations uh in civil rights movement. And Malcolm when he came he founded two movements. One was the organization of Afro American Unity which was a non-sectarian movement open to all blacks irrespective of their uh religious association and as such he wanted to work

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with all civil rights groups and movements to further the uh the advance of the African Americans to claim their rights as human beings. So he was open to association with all the groups who were working for the same cause.

Q: OKAY UM NOW HIS STRATEGY FOR FURTHERING THAT CAUSE WAS TO MOVE THE DEBATE OUT OF CIVIL RIGHTS INTO HUMAN RIGHTS. HOW WAS HE ORGANIZING THAT AND IN WHAT KIND OF INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT WAS HE GETTING FOR THAT That EFFORT?

FD 7826 OSMAN:

7825[ Malcolm approach to the black people problem in the United States differed fundamentally from that of civil rights because he was seeing the issue not as a matter of civil rights but as human rights and as such he saw that since this is a human rights problem it has to be a concern of all human beings.]7863 In the United States and outside the United States and as such whenever he traveled, he was talking about

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human rights in the United States and he attended the summit meeting of the Organization of Afro Organization of African Unity in Cairo. 7894[ He visited Egypt, he visited Kenya, he spoke to the Parliament in Kenya, he visited Nigeria, he visited Ghana, Guinea, he met the leaders in all these countries and he was asking their support in the United Nations on account of the African Americans FD 7926 in the United States and uh he was a bit unhappy because many African countries due to the pressure from the United States Government uh were reluctant to bring the issue in front of the uh in front of the United Nations. But Malcolm was seeing that the problem of the African Americans in the United States was no different from what was going on in South Africa and if the problem FD 7964 of South Africa could be brought before the United Nations why not the problem of the African Americans in the United States?]7973

Q: HOW DID THE PEOPLE IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SEE MALCOLM BEING BARRED FROM

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FRANCE WHEN HE TRAVELS OVERSEAS TO UM VISIT FRANCE AND THEN ENGLAND BUT HE'S HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER FRANCE? HOW WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE IS THAT SENDING TO INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY? UM IN RELATIONSHIP TO MALCOLM?

FD 8004 OSMAN:

8003[ Malcolm after his speech at Oxford debating club I think it was in November 1964 he was invited by the African students to visit Paris. When he arrived at the airport he was barred by the French authorities. This of course gave a message to the Africans in France uh on the in the African continent that the only reason that Malcolm was being FD 8045 barred was because these countries especially through the times of the 60s when colonial hold was still strong in Africa when the intervention of Belgium in the Congo was very active, when facts were being distorted about what was happening in Africa especially in the Congo and these governments or these nations in Europe were afraid that Malcolm would come and speak out the truth and that this is going to lead to dissatisfaction of

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the people, not only the Africans, but also the French people because Malcolm has a following not only among the Africans and the Asians but among the youth in western countries among the youth in the United States and he was the most-wanted speakers on the college campuses not only in the United States but even abroad. He was invited at the American University in Beirut to speak. His lecture was attended by a massive number of students and Lebanese people. Uh wherever he went in Africa in Ghana, in Accra, he was really considered the champion of freedom for the Afro Asian countries.]8159

Q: OKAY.. LETS CUT

TK5 CR:226 SR:110

MARK FIVE

Q: HOW SIGNIFICANT IS IT THAT MALCOLM IS INVITED TO THE OAU CONFERENCE AS A REPRESENTATIVE?

BLACKSIDE, INC. 27 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 8181 OSMAN:

8180[ In the 1960s Africans had a lot of misgivings about American foreign policy in Africa. Because unfortunately at that time the American foreign policy was supportive of the colonial policies of countries like Belgium. And the only voice which was echoing which was echoing the The aspiration of the Africans in the United States was that of Malcolm. As such leaders in Afro Asian countries saw in Malcolm a champion of their cause in the United States and as such he was FD 8239 considered as an unofficial ambassador of these countries in the United States and that is the reason why he was welcomed at the summit meeting of Organization of African Unity in Cairo.]8260 He was allowed to address the parliaments in Kenya. Be was considered as a state guest in Guinea, in Ghana wherever he went. And uh 8279[at that time the Afro Asian countries wanted anybody who could make their voice heard in the United States and the western world. And they couldn't find a better voice than that of Brother Malcolm.]8303

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Q: YOU YOU MET MALCOLM IN 62 YOU HAD SPENT TIME WITH HIM CORRESPONDENCE. IN YOUR BEST DESCRIPTIVE WORDS DESCRIBE HIM TO ME. WHAT WHAT YOU KNOW THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE YOUNG PEOPLE GROWING UP NOW THEY WON'T KNOW HIM THEY ONLY KNOW WHAT THEY SEE IN THE NEWS MEDIA. DESCRIBE MALCOLM THE MALCOLM THAT YOU KNEW.

FD 8337 OSMAN:

The Malcolm that one can think of in the 60s is of two characters. The Malcolm that you hear or see on news media and television and the Malcolm the person you associate with. In fact 8369[if you didn't know him personally you will get an entirely different image from what you read in the press or in the media or even when you hear him. Because when he used to speak he used FD 8386 to speak with passion. He used to speak with the feelings of the people who were suffering for 400 hundred years and as such he used to project all of that in his speech. But when you sit down and talk to him in a person-to- person way you will think of talking to a

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very gentle person whom you had known him for so many years.]8424 And that was the feeling not only not onlt that I got but even my colleagues at Dartmouth got because when we invited him at Dartmouth he was the guest of the international dormitory used to be called Cutter Hall, and we had him as a in the guest suite at that dormitory and in the morning in the of the morning the morning following his speech at Dartmouth the students came there FD 8467 and had breakfast with him. We had also dinner with him. So the people the students who really associated with him on this dinner table and the breakfast table they were amazed by his friendship by his gentleness speaking to them no animosity and as such when he left he really left quite an impact on the Dartmouth student body in 1965. At FD 8510 the same time he was so gentle uh even when Dartmouth student body they decided |out pix out to invite him to the campus they came to me to help them to bring him to the college campus.

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Q: OKAY THAT'S GOOD THAT'S GOOD WE GOT A FEELING

TK 6 CR:227 SR:110

NEW CAMERA ROLL 227 TAKE SIX.

MARK

Q: SO YOU WERE TELLING ME ABOUT MALCOLM'S GENEROSITY OR THE WAY HE WAS UNUSUAL.

OSMAN:

Yes.

Q: TELL ME ABOUT THAT IN A VERY TIGHT STORY. ABOUT COMING TO DARTMOUTH AND YOU CALLING HIM.

FD 8563 OSMAN:

When the student body at Dartmouth decided to invite Malcolm they knew that it was very difficult to get him because he was one of the most-wanted speakers on college campuses. At the same time the student body since they were sponsoring him they didn't have the money to pay him so they were a bit

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concerned that they might not be able to get him. So they came to me they said look here we hear that you are a friend of Malcolm. Could you help us in getting him to the campus. I thought well I will try. 8610[ So [I called him at his home and I told him Brother Malcolm we would like you to come to Dartmouth. And his immediate reaction was Brother anything you ask me I'll do it for you. He didn't ask for any money he didn't FD 8635 ask how much we were going to pay him. I told him look here uh we don't have much money to pay. He said look here don't speak about money. I will come there. And in fact he came there he spoke]8658 and he left quite an impact and in fact the auditorium was closed two hours before his lecture because it was filled with people and it was carried over the radio station of the college and he left quite an impact. 8680[ This was a exactly about a month before his assassination.]8688

Q: WHERE WERE YOU WHEN HIS HOUSE WAS BOMBED AND HOW DO YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THAT AND WHAT

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INFORMATION DO YOU GET ABOUT IT WHEN YOU HEAR?

FD 8703 OSMAN:

8703[ I was in Hanover at Dartmouth [when his house was firebombed and I was uh really shocked to hear the news especially that it not only him was intended but his family was intended as well. And I was quite disappointed by some of the press statements that this was done or instigated by Malcolm himself because that is the last thing he would do and he was a man who really lived to his word. He was such a sincere dedicated person that it could never occur to my mind that he could do something like this.]8780

Q: UM A WEEK LATER HE IS ASSASSINATED. WHERE ARE YOU WHEN HE IS ASSASSINATED HOW DO YOU FIND OUT TALK ABOUT THAT MOMENT.

FD 8791 OSMAN:

Yeah. It was about 4 o'clock on Sunday, February 21st. I was coming across campus in Hanover from the gymnasium going to my dormitory. One of my student buddies met

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me in the middle of the campus and he told me have you heard the news? I said what news? He said Malcolm has been assassinated. I couldn't believe you know. I thought he was just pulling my leg because when he came to the campus it was in the news that I was instrumental in bringing him to the college campus but having second thoughts I ran to my dorm I open the radio and there was the news. Malcolm was assassinated. So immediately at FD 8869 midnight I took the Greyhound bus. I went down to New York. I went to give my condolences to his family who were living in the home of their neighbors because their home was firebombed. They had nowhere to stay. So I gave them my condolences. And then the family requested me to help them in arranging for him a Muslim funeral.

Q: HOW UM WHAT DID MALCOLM LEAVE WHAT DID HE HAVE TO HELP THEM I MEAN WHAT WERE HIS RESOURCES WHEN HE DIED? IF THERE WAS A FUNERAL TO BE HAD? IF THERE WERE RITES...

BLACKSIDE, INC. 34 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 OSMAN:

Yes.

Q: WHAT DID HE HAVE TO HELP IN THOSE THINGS? WHAT DID HIS FAMILY HAVE?

FD 8935 OSMAN:

When Malcolm was assassinated he really had no resources at all. Even the house in which he was living belonged to the Nation of Islam and he went to the court to try to keep it and the courts ruled against him. 8961[ So [when he died he had no home, he had no insurance for himself for his family, he had absolutely no financial resources. In fact if I remember correctly, the only check FD 8986 that was in his account was the check that we gave him as honorarium for coming to Dartmouth. We didn't have even the money you know to hold the funeral for him. We didn't have the money even to buy a casket for him. So when he died he owned nothing. Except the clothes he was wearing.]9024

Q: MALCOLM COULD HAVE HAD MONEY COULDN'T HE? BUT HE DIDN'T, WHY?

BLACKSIDE, INC. 35 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 9036 OSMAN:

9035[ Malcolm could have had anything he wished. He could have had the position he wished. He could have had the material resources he wished. But he wasn't aspiring for any of that. He was in the line of the prophets. He was carrying a message and he dedicated himself and his life for that message and he saw his success was how long he could carry that message so that was his objective and that was his dedication and as such money or material things were secondary FD 9102 to him. Not only that but it's fascinating to see that until the last moment he was dedicating his autobiography, his own autobiography to the Nation of Islam. I haven't really come across any person who dedicated himself to such a cause and he was really in line with the prophets.]9142

Q: HOW DID YOU RESPOND HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THE WAY THE MEDIA REPORTED HIS ASSASSINATION AND IN A SENSE DEFINED HIM AFTER WAS KILLED?

BLACKSIDE, INC. 36 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FD 9162 OSMAN:

9161[ One of the most disappointing things for me when he was assassinated the way the media reacted to his assassination.]9177 You know Malcolm was a center of the media when he was alive and Malcolm always used to say that the media really does not project his true feelings his true statements. That whenever they even take a picture or shot of him they bring him when he is pointing his finger or when he is angry and they label him as the FD 9214 angriest black man in America and all of these things were really a distortion of the gentle mild Malcolm I use to know. Uh, when he comes to his cause, when he defend his cause he was a fiery person. But when you sit down with him he was the most gentle person I ever met. So I was really quite disappionted by the reaction of the media. FD 9253 9254[ they called him by, they called by the most name you could ever think of. They called him an ex-thief, ex-addict, ex-so-and- so and usually we as Muslims when a person is assassinated or dies even if he was the most

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evil person you don't speak about the evil side. You only remember the good hings about when a person dies.]9295 So I was so moved by the reaction of the media to his assassination to write an article in the Dartmouth newspaper about the Malcolm I knew and I stated there that 9317[ I was quite disappointed by the reaction of the media to assassination that I was not expecting even a word of sympathy from the media for Malcolm. FD 9333 I was expecting a word of sympathy for his children, for his wife who was pregnant. All of them were there when he was gunned down by 16 bullets. So I was expecting something (unintel) to that---which unfortunately I didn't see. oreover, I was quite disappointed by the official reaction of the American Government because there was a very sympathetic reaction to his assassination FD 9382 overseas. In Africa in the Middle East and in Asia and in Europe. In fact the reaction overseas was much stronger to his assassination than it was locally. And uh the American Government reacted very

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negatively to the reaction overseas and they put out an official statement by the director of the United Information Agency that the Africans did not understand Malcolm. He was an ex-thief, he was ex-addict, and ex-dope and that this person was preaching separation, was preaching racism.]9446 And Malcolm since he came to Mecca he never preached any of that. He was preaching the brotherhood of mankind. He was asking for human rights for people who have been deprived of it for so long. And as such I think the media was not fair to him when he was assassinated.

Q: YOU WERE AT THE FUNERAL AND YOU SPOKE AT THE FUNERAL. AND YOU UM WERE QUITE UPSET AT THE FUNERAL WHEN YOU SPOKE. WHAT UPSET YOU? WHAT DID YOU SPEAK ABOUT AT THE FUNERAL?

FD 9505 OSMAN:

I was really quite upset by the reaction of the media at this assassination. At the same time, I was upset by the hysterical atmosphere built up by the media.

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The media built up an atmosphere of hysteria that on the funeral day, even before pix out that out they started printed news that Malcolm's people were on his way.

Q: WE'RE ALMOST DONE AREN'T WE?

L# 9557 BLACKSIDE, INC. 40 MALCOLM X OSMAN AHMED CR 224, SR 109, CR 225, SR 109, CR 226 SR 110, CR 227 SR 110 22? SR 111 FF0000 BOX #129 CODE: FC0000-0936

THIS IS BLACKSIDE, INC., MALCOLM X, SOUNDROLL 111 ON CAMERA ROLL 228 AND TAKE 7 WILL BE COMING UP. MARK IT.

TK 7 CR:228 SR:111

Q: TALK TO ME A BIT ABOUT THE HYSTERIA THAT'S BEING DRUMMED UP AFTER THE ASSASSINATION BY THE MEDIA AND HOW IT BEGINS IMPACT OF THE HARLEM COMMUNITY.

FF 0028 OSMAN:

0028[ When Malcolm was assassinated the media immediately accused that the Nation of Islam was behind his assassination. Then the media started orchestrating that feuds were going to take place between the two groups. They started publishing news that some of Malcolm people were on his way to Chicago to assassinate Elijah Muhammed and particularly FF0070 on the funeral day, a hysteria was built up that in New York the two groups are going to fight each other. And was such when I arrived on that day to New York I found Harlem was a swarmed with police on rooftops, on the streets. You find that hysteria. In

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a way it was made to keep people away from his funeral. And the official position of the United States government also against Malcolm scared a lot of people from coming to his funeral. Anybody who was going to attend that funeral was looked on as unsympathetic to the American people or to the American way of life.]0148 And, uh I felt a sense of obligation that since I was instrumental in guiding him to the orthodox Islam and that FF 0167 Malcolm was genuine in his beliefs that I had to stand by his side and by his family's side at that crucial time. And not only that, but defy the media was projecting a distorted image of Islam, that Malcolm did not die as a Moslem and his family wanted him to be buried as an Orthodox Muslim and they asked to help them in their direction. So I started contacting the Muslim scholar, Shehar Had FF 0226 Messun, from Sudan, who Malcolm brought and made him the head of Muslim Mosque Inc. and he was the one who washed his body according to Islamic rituals and made the coffin according to Islamic rituals. And I made it

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a point to come and attend his funeral with a few brothers who were studying at Harvard University, Pennsylvania University. They were students from Egypt, uh, Kuwait, and Palestine. 0281[ There were about four or five of us, so we came and attended his funeral and [when I saw that people have been really scared away from his funeral, uh, especially official people, even from African countries, I made it a point to correct this distorted image of Malcolm that was being spread by the FF 0319 news media and, uh, I made a statement at his funeral contradicting a statement made by the Director of the United States Information Agency. And I pointed out that here was a person whom I had know him for three years when he was in the Nation of Islam after he lived in (unintel) that Malcolm died as a true Muslim. He died as a martyr. In Islam, FF 0362 we consider him as a martyr: a person who died fighting for a cause, for an Islamic cause, for the brotherhood of all human beings and that we lost a dear brother, but I pointed out that in Islam the highest

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aspiration of any Muslim is to die fighting for an Islamic cause, the cause of the unity of mankind, the cause of the brotherhood of mankind and that's what Malcolm fought for and died for.]0419

Q: UM. HM?

OSMAN:

Do you want about, uh, about the family?

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TAKE EIGHT

Q: UM, IS MALCOLM STILL, UM, ENJOYED A CERTAIN INTEREST IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND IF SO, WHY? WHY IS THERE STILL AN ATTENTION TO HIM AND,AND, UH, WHAT HE WAS ABOUT?

FF 0462 OSMAN:

Malcolm popularity in the Middle East, not only the Middle East, but also in Africa. It has continued unabated since his assassination. In fact, people over there understood him much better when he was assassinated than in America. In America

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people have been, uh, rediscovering Malcolm. But over there in the Middle East they, of course, met him as an orthodox Muslim and as such, they still live with his, uh, memory that is still his message is alive, and, uh, such they associate, um, they associating is Malcolm, they are still associating with the cause that Malcolm was championing in the FF 0538 United States of America and as such, uh, they feel attached to his memory and to his, uh, feelings. And this is the significance of Malcolm which a still lives in the Middle East and in Africa.

THAT'S GOOD.

...GET THIS A LITTLE CLOSER, A LITTLE BIT LOOSER THIS TIME.

Q: UM,

...AND THEN READ IT TO ME AGAIN.

OSMAN:

Mm, Mm.

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MARK NINE

FF 0577 OSMAN:

0576[ This is a letter that Malcolm wrote to me on November 18, 1963. When he was still in the Nation of Islam. It reads, "My Dear Brother, May these lines again find enjoying the best of health, wealth and happiness according to the will of Allah. I have been traveling constantly during the past two months and therefore have not had an opportunity to answer your letter before now. I have definitely been enjoying the pamphlets that you sent to me on Islam and it is my FF 0636 intention to try and make them available to more of the brothers and sisters as soon as I can get the apparatus set up to handle them. I have a translation of the Koran by Yusef Ali and also by Muhammed Ali. I like the Muhammed Ali translation better. In your next letter to me, will you tell me what is meant in the Koran by the verse 551 and verse 2102. May Allah continue to guide you and bless you. Your Brother, Malcolm X."]0698

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Q: HE SIGNS THAT LETTER MALIK SHA... HE HAS MALIK SHABBAZZ AT THE TOP OF IT. WHY, HOW EARLY WAS HE USING THE NAME MALIK SHABBAZZ?

FF 0715 OSMAN:

He was using the name Malik Shabbazz since he was in the Nation of Islam and he considered Malik Shabbazz as his true Islamic name. Malcolm, of course, was first name and he put the letter "X" to signify his lost real name. But his Islamic name that he adopted was Malik Shabbazz.

Q: <UNINTEL)

OSMAN:

There uh, this.

MOS-C.U of letter - 0758->0936 L# 0936