TAKE ONE

MARKER

Q: OK, what I wanna start with is uh... uh ask you about your early memories of Boston, um you grew up in Boston in the early forties?

Q: Uh, describe Boston to me back then and . . . and describe it bringing in the Boston Malcolm might have seen in terms of Mass Ave and the Club scene . .. you know Sugar Hill and all that kinda stuff?

Q: I'm gonna start you again I'm gonna start off by saying Boston is not too descriptive so we'll know what we're talking about.

Q: Go back and start again Boston

Q: Don't worry about it.

to school with black and white and so forth like that and uh I never really experienced BA 2726 uh uh what it was to be discriminated against until I went to Washington D.C to go to High School OK, and as I look back on the Boston years now uh that wasn't evident to me.

Q: OK talk to me about Boston and the uh um the early memories of the ... the Club scene around Mass Avenue and stuff how, how alive was Boston back then l I've heard people talk about you know the Lower Roxbury area um Mass Ave and Lower Tremont Street and that in the evenings it really came alive

Q: Describe that to me that part of Boston.

to the people that participated in that area that came down to go into the Clubs and so forth like that and there was no such thing as violence you mighta had some light BA 2828 muggings an-, an-, an-, and what they call a Murphy Game and different things like that going on but it wasn't a violent thing OK and Police ah they try to do their job but again you know it wasn't a violent thing a [2834 we look at the High Hat and just about [everybody anybody came to the High Hat OK that was in the entertainment field uh matter fact the last time that uh I can remember being in BA 2868 there Billie Holiday was there you know and ah it's something that one could appreciate because you could get some legitimate music at that time you know musicians were musicians they worked at their trade and so forth like that you know and they mingled right with the street folks when they come out to go into the restaurants and all that you know wasn't a whole lotta high falutin’ or nothin' like that there was people ah one could appreciate that. OK uh getting off on BA 2916 the other side of that uh I guess [I didn't have no understanding about right or wrong I

didn't have a job my hustle was in the street BA 2937 and that's what I did...]]2940

Q: Talk to me about that hustling . What was what do you mean by hustle? What was ...

Q: Start again ...

come on down to it -- drug dependent. That BA 3028 was a given. They didn't know where to cop at or where to go at, and so forth like that so we get into doing them favors.] And there was no such thing as the burn, in other words, taking somebody's money and not given them a product. It was all straight up and down regardless of what side of the street you were walking on. You know, you had your integrity to ... to think about. And that was always been a full-runner with me. You BA 3066 know, my word is what it is whether it be good or bad or whatever, I had to, to be into that.]]3075 Uh,...

Q: How was, what was, what was the uhm the uhm the relationship of the police and say that kind of hustle community back then. Describe the police to me, describe the relat’-, you know, how you dealt with them. Did you know ’em all, did you know what they, was it...

deal with. Yeah, they knew you and you knew them. And, the only time that they got out of hand, so-to-speak, is when they could actually put something on you. Then they would come and arrest you. other than that, BA 3128 they'd keep moving and keep their eyes on you, and so forth like that, but there was no uh overly harassment coming from the police. They was just doing their job. OK. And we tried to stay one step ahead of ‘em. OK. A lot of times, some of the Jones complained. Police would come down here, and he'd point somebody out and you got arrested. OK. Uh, if the Narco squad was out there and they run up on you, and find something in your pocket, then you got another case on you. Different things like that but overall we were able to BA 3173 survive.

Q: Let's cut.

MISC: WE'RE ROLLING

W: Take two...

Q: Talk to me about the, the older uh guys who might have had drugs and what was attractive about them, how they dealt with these young hustlers?

because people are attracted to you when they know you're carrying a product and then its a good product. Uh, most of the time, uh, we BA 3282 had uh Four Eleven Club. It used to be down on uh Columbus Avenue. That's where a lot of uh night life people used to hang out -- the working girls and the guys that had girls, and all that good stuff like that, and uh they were trying to keep you out of there. Ya know, so a lot of times you, your interaction went on the sidewalk as opposed BA 3314 to actually being in the club, itself. Ya know. And uh I guess you could say I was attracted to a lot of that. Ya know. Because I ended up getting into myself to a degree. Ya know, uh, Boston was quiet then, like I said, because we had a good, quiet strip over there. I mean, everybody knew the code and when you stepped outside the code then you‘had a problem. When I say stepped outside the code, when you got into violence and all that get up, and that wasn't what it was about over there. Ya know. And uh, they BA 3366 didn't want anybody, the police included, hassling their ladies, so—to-speak, ya know, so everybody had a good understanding of what

life was out there. Ya know. There's a place out there now that still lives in this respect and its Charlies down on Columbus BA 3386 Avenue. It's been there for years. That's what people who used go after the clubs used to close down. They'd be all up in there to two, three, four o'clock in the morning, whatever. Ya know. Uh...

Q: So it's like a, it's a real, it's a real like community of people who are part of this night life that...

Q: ...that kind of feed off each other.

army and the marines and they stayed up here, OK, when the ships used to come in, or whatever, they were stationed up in Devons or down in Edwards or whatever, used to come to BA 3461 Boston for the night life. And they used to come and spend their money, so that was another uh income so-to—speak, ya know. Like making sure that the servicemen were satisfied to whatever degree that may, that might mean like legitimately or illegally or whatever, ya know, you, you dealt with it. Ya know, so there's no end to ... to the night life and what people want in the night life. What people come out to look for in BA 3500 the night life. Ya know, so you try to accommodate 'em, whatever it might be.]]3508

Q: Let's cut. Let's roll out. What I want ... we're gonna change film right now. What I want o pick up on is um I'd like you didn't tell me, as a young black man

Q: ... you had for yourself at the time. Just growing up and making it.

Q: Stop. Sorry. Let me just...

MISC: Sound and speeding.

W: Take four.

MISC: Mark it.

Q: A little softer. Uh, talk to me about your uh being young and what options you felt were available to you.

because I was out of the house as much as I could get out of the house. I was in the street and that's where I ended up landing. BA 3624 Ya know. And I never thought in terms, after I lost my father, all hell broke loose 'cause there was no shackles on me at all. I could just about come and go like I wanted. And I think that that was the beginning of my getting into the negative side of life. Uh, 3649[ when we talk about staying in school, and d’- do what you was supposed to do back then, ya know, we're talking about being a doctor or lawyer. That's basically what field BA 3665 people wanted to go into or what was suggested that blacks get into, being a teacher. OK, or staying in a church and being a minister or something like that. That never appealed to me. Ya know, I might add that uh I'm one of seven and I'm the baby in my family. Ya know, and the only one that's ever had any difficulty with the system. Ya know, all my brothers and sisters graduated and went to school and ended up BA 3703 doing something with their life and uh I went just the opposite of that. Uh, I coulda did uh better in uh on a better side, but uh I

don't think that was beef for me. Ya know, BA 3726 as I look back on it now. It just wasn't in the cards.]]3733

Q: Did you, back then, looking back at back then, did you feel that some of the uh options that people talked about were avail’- , available to you were really pipe dreams? They weren't really there. That this, this road that what you saw in terms of streets was a much more viable possibility, have more possibilities for you?

with, same age group, and all of them turned out pretty good as far as the normal side of life is concerned. Ya know. Married with BA 3819 families and all that stuff like that. I was a little late getting started, ya know because I lost a lot of years.

Q: Uhm, talk to me about uh in those days the whole idea of, of inter-racial uh relations and then black men with white women uh how it was accepted on a soc-, on a society level, how it was accepted within the community of people that you hung out with in, in uh, uh, ya know, in your circles. And uh what it meant for a black man to have be with a white women back then.

were with them, had the strength and the BA 3907 stamina to defend their self and protect their self, and didn't tolerate any garbage. OK. Uh, 3919[[ one of the biggest attractions was that if, [if a fellow was to acquire a white girl, it was for making money or being introduced to different doors and so forth like that. Ya know, most of the men at that time that did have ’em, did have a certain amount of stature in that culture. That's the, thi'-, thi'-, this was a given. Ya BA 3954 know. And uh they had a chance to travel and do a lot of things that the average guy wouldn't be able to do in the culture. Because they had that kind of money flowing through their hands.] OK.]3971 Uh, the people in the street accepted it. Ya know, it's the same thing and ya have to understand when you talk about the culture you talk about a lot of things making that culture up. The homosexual population was an acceptance. Ya know, they were people just like anybody else. They had their ups and downs and so forth like that, ya know, and they were BA 4012 there. Ya know. had then, nobody had a problem with it. Ya know, 4026[[ a lot of folks uh

drifted off into using narcotics, for whatever reason, but again that was one of BA 4040 the tolls of the street life. End up using drugs.]]4047

Q: OK, so in, in uhm, what's it forty—seven?

Q: You, you uh, uh are uh arrested and then the trial and you're sent, you're sent to prison.

Q: Forty-nine.

Q: And you, and uhm you uh you, you go to Norfolk...

Q: ...at that time. Talk about uh what Norfolk is like. What is, what is, what is

prison like when you get there, in terms of the uh population, uh are there lots of black men are there few? Uhm, how is it set up? Give me, paint me a picture who have no idea what it's like, paint me the picture of what you see, and what you encounter when come to the prison?

issues the black and the white population had to come together on it.]4201 OK. Then there was another lot of issues that they wouldn't come BA 4207 together on. OK. Uh, one of the things that people had a problem with, was that most blacks were overdominating in the sports and all them good things like that.OK. And a lot of times, people couldn't accept that. OK. The other thing is that Norfolk, we were isolated fifteen to a fifty man unit. Not understanding that at the time, but this is the way the administration had set it up. BA 4255 That there would be no more than fifteen rank men in any given unit. Once that reached its count, couldn't nobody else move in there. Ya know, 'til one left. 4271[ Uh, Norfolk was uh a colony, as they called it at the time. And it was supposed to be the better of the institutions because of the living condition, uh movement, and different things like that. Which it was, but it was still very, very strict. OK. Uh, you worked and you didn't make, you didn't make any money. It was just BA 4307 free labor in regards to what area you worked in, there was no such thing as being paid for your work. OK. We had a ten o'clock curfew,

eleven o'clock curfew to go to bed at night. We didn't have no TVs, you had a radio, but BA 4330 you had to have earphones to have a radio and it was one of them crystal or tube sets going back a lot years. You don't even see 'em today, but that’ s what you had, ya know.]4344 And, we tried to, to, to keep our peace. And when I say we, the blacks tried to keep their peace. And a lot of times, we didn't know each other before we get into the institutions so that made uh certain coming BA 4373 together. And we used to have difficulties. But it was never to the point of killing of anybody. You'd, you'd get punched in the mouth, or you know, have a little fight or something like that, but that was the extent of it. After it was over, it was all forgotten about, ya know? And, [[4409 we tried to, to, to look to tomorrow so-to-speak. Regardless of whether it was in a positive sense of a negative sense. We always had plans for what we wanted to do when we get BA 4429 out. The various neighborhoods we came out of and so forth like that. And, one of the things that was very interesting, the Muslim movement had just_came into play. And we had

a few men that were following that dictum. OK. And uh, they somewhat isolated their selfs. Behind their thoughts, their BA 4467 dialogues, and so forth like that. But again, the majority of the population just let them do their thing. I think the most disturbing aspect of that was the administration.]]4486

Q: OK. We're gonna break this down. Hang on for a second. We're gonna go back ...

HIT IT AGAIN PLEASE

TAKE FIVE SECOND STICKS

Q: Talk to me about your ... when ah, the Muslims came (unintel), from where you are, how, what do they, what are they like and describe them to, to describe them to me, or to the audience so that_they can see what you saw with this.

Q: Let me ask you one more thing ... um ...

thought pattern at the time. Ah, [they made a BA 5190 lot of sacrifices to keep yourself together and to eliminate problems. Ah, I think the administration was more scared of ’em than anybody else.]5206

Q: OK. I'm going to stop you for just, you- you-you keep referring to ’em as them, and they, I need.

Q: I need to know to what you were talking about.

TAKE SIX

Q: So talk to me about the ... administration and the general populations responding to Malcolm....

because they didn't really understand. We had the most um-ah-segment was coming from ah [ Malcolm at that time was very proud, he was BA 5269 always outspoken and so forth like that, and that sort of frightened people. Whether they were talking to the administration or were talking the rest of the population black and white because they didn't understand they had no understanding in relationship to what was being said.] Ah, that didn't affect them any because they kept their drill going and I mean they did their thing, they didn't BA 5303 isolate theirself but they kept to theirself and ah...[they demanded respect and the got respect and I think that was the important thing in any prison population.]]5319 There were people who understand and they still step aside and give you the space that you need. Ah...one of the things that I could never understand is speaking about somebody bringing a message, OK. And asking you to do BA 5348 certain things-—to me that didn't have a foundation behind it. Because I always looked at man being man. You know so, that can go anyway. OK. Ah, in a sense I...I see

that the, the studying paid off for Malcolm BA 5391 in relationship to where he ended back going.

Q: Talk to me about ah, ah, you-you told once before when we were talking before that um, you had a hard time with ah pork eating. That you were, you used eat pork but also, what also got you, is that they wouldn't even get pork for...

Q: ...talk to me about that.

Q: And use Muslims and Malcolm in it.

they were so strong about the pork, they BA 5465 wouldn't even get it for you. In other words if they had that on the chow line, you couldn't get this. And I see it caused problems sometimes because a lot of brothers couldn't understand that, you know, why you won't get it for me, you don't have to eat it, but I'm the one that's eating, don't put it on your tray, just tell ’em to put it on my tray and all that stuff like that. They wouldn't do that. OK.] The same thing with BA 5496 the smoking, they didn't think that that was necessary. [I always believed that I wanna give you your space and I want you to give me my space.OK. And, that's how I saw it. OK. They were about that also, giving you your space as long as you gave them their space. You know. I think they were very well-disciplined, you know, they had to be to believe the way they believed, to make the sacrifices the way they make the sacrifices, to deal with the isolation the way they had to deal with the isolation.]]5544 I think that the BA 5552 system helped them. It helped them in a sense of ah, understanding that they didn't want to be in the system. Helped them in a

sense that they felt like they could be some good to their people, you know, and I think that that has proven itself to a degree.

Q: OK. I remember when you once said ah, you kind of talked about um, um, ah, everybody has a different way of doing their time.

Q: Everyone has their way of doing it so that ah they can get their time over with.

Q: Do you-you remember can you think back to that time, you always wondering whether was this just a gimmick, the way of ....

Q: Talk to us about that how ... it's the other ... and give me an example of other ways that people were doing their time to try and ...

intentions in the world but circumstances and things make them change that. It's just like [a lot of the brothers when they stop eating the pork. You know, and then you see 'em in the community and they got a hot dog in their BA 5734 mouth. You know ho-how—how do—how do you do that, you know? And this is what I always ask myself anyway, how do you do that? But, it’s the process of getting through your sentence. OK. Being able to get yourself involved so that you don't have to think about doing the sentence you just do it. OK. That works for a lot of people,]]]5763 OK. Ah, back then we didn't have too many officers, like I said, we didn't have any TV and all that good BA 5773 stuff like that, you know, so we were about, you know, dealing with a lot of idle time after work, so...

Q: Talk to me about the, how about the ah, the Muslims and their ah, time in the library. Ah, seeing that most of them whenever we talk to anyone who's there with them that this is something that this was something that everyone noticed that they were spending lots of time in the library.

What did, eh-take yourself back to then. How did that make you feel back then? Wh-what is your feel about or ... what was your opinion on all this time that was spent in the library. What’d you think of?

Q: Let me take it and make it much more specific.

reading. They put a lot of time into communicating with each other, amongst theirself, OK. Ah, I had no idea it'd lead to what it did lead to.]]5971

Q: Ah, how did white inmates respond to things like that ... what was their ... in general ...

Q: Tell me who they are and tell me who you're talking about.

Q: I'm sorry we're gonna stop...we just rolled out the film.

Q: It was about ... that's when we start getting ... (unintel)

Q: Ten minutes.

THIS IS MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL 67 ON SOUND ROLL 33 CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH MR. JONES.

AFTER THE AFTER THE STICKS

TAKE SEVEN

DO YOU WANT TO CLEAR THAT...

MARK IT

OH SORRY

Q: OK. Let's pick up and talk about ah, the white prisoners and how they responded to the Muslims and in the answer it's important to know that we're talking the Muslims and the white prisoners.

and one of the biggest ah, hassles was that BA 6173 they were constantly referring to the white, boys as devils and they didn't like that so, whenever that came into play it created a certain amount of static. It never got to a violent confrontation to my understanding because they weren't talking to him they were talking about them.]6204 Or making reference to them as devils when they did speak in behalf of one of 'em you know. so that kept the BA 6215 isolation a little broader so-to—speak. Because that was part of their dialogue and this is what Elijah Mohammed wanted them to understand, you know, they couldn't be as firey as they probably wanted to be by being incarcerated but whenever the space allowed itself then they they ... they utilized it.

Q: Now, for-for ah, a black prisoner like yourself, how unusual was it to ah, to find other black prisoners spending so much time in the library? Talk to me about that.

theirself anyway, they had carved their space out.

Q: OK you have to tell me who were talking about...?

Q: Just say, the black population, start it as a statement, the black population...

know, so that just left me on the outside, so—to—speak.]6359 Ah, he used to walk the corridors, they call it, that's the rotunda in there and ah, again, they would be in BA 6367 concentration with theirselves. People would come in on them when they passed but that was the extent of it. Yeah, and ab, some of the brothers used to speak to how they were approached to get some understanding and come into the fold and all that good stuff like that, you know, that was it, that-there was BA 6400 no forced issue with anybody. You know, either you were interested or you wasn't interested. Ah...if they hadda been a problem, the population would’a stuck together, whether they understood or not, the population would’a stick, because there wasn't us, there wasn't that many of us blacks there anyway in comparison to the total population. So we had no choice but to be supportive of each whether we understood or believed, that wasn't what the issue was, BA 6448 'cause most of the times when you did have any type of a confrontation or anything, it was a black/white issue. So the line was

drawn anyway. You know, yak now and I think in most cases it worked itself out.

Q: Talk to me about ... well, take me a step further when ah, Malcolm and the Muslims get actively involved in these debates start taking place. Describe the debates to me and in that description describe your own ah, ah feelings about the debates and how Malcolm, and their, their performance in debates, how it makes you feel.

Q: Explain to me that in prison we had debates and and who came into debates, who participated first.

Q: Legitimate. Legitimate debates with the colleges.

Q: OK. Help me out here.Talk to me that in prison we had debates with college ...

Q: ... we... we were (unintel) colleges ... so I know what we are talking about.

just, you know, on the fringes, I'm just, you know, not there, but I'm there, ah, he was in charge, OK. And people listened, whether BA 6651 they bought it what he said or not was not the issue, the fact was that he,was able to get people's attention.]6662 OK. Ah, what he was selling was ah, ah hard hot product.When I say a hard hot product, ah...don’t mess with with Whitey, he's not to be trusted and all that, and, they got everything. They were in charge and everything else so how could one BA 6698 break that up to understand where he was comin’ from. That's where I got lost at as far as understanding was concerned because the one hand you're saying one thing and on the other hand, you have to do something else so I think that eh, that takes a certain amount of growing and understanding. How you separate that.

Q: So Malcolm's in prison and in the debates around the yard, he is debating um that your in prison because the white man put you there.

Q: You know white man, talk to me about...

Q: OK. Give me the nature of that and that eh, paint a picture of this scene for me. That Malcolm's in the middle of a crowd and this is what he's talking to, he's debating with the general population in the middle of the yard. Um, I think that seems what is he talking about?

had any understanding of what he was saying, never mind some of the other men but he was painting the picture how things could be BA 6842 different. We also got into a discussion of what the swine was, what it did to you, all that good stuff like that, OK. People had a problem digesting that because, you know, there was no other communication other than what he's saying, there's was no whole lot of well—read people you know around to be able to refute what he's saying so it was just a BA 6878 one—sided argument. He was giving up information and ah, you accepted it or you rejected or you researched what he was saying, if you were that interested in finding out where he was coming from. But everything led back to Elijah Mohammed in relationship what he said because that was the the theme of his conversation. The Honorable Elijah Mohammed says such and such and such and such and that's you know, what it is you know. And ah, quoting from the BA 6916 Koran and different things like that you know. Again, we're, we're, we're killing time so you're listening and you're not listening, you know, where we might be in the

circle or in the crowd two or three deep or BA 6936 whatever it might be and we're probably going through the paces before curfew blows and puts us back in a unit for the evening, something like that there and mainly that's when most of the conversations were generated is after work when they would be on the yard and there wouldn't be a ball game going.

Q: Would those conversations or could Malcolm cause even you, to go back to research some of that and try to find out whether it's what you felt about it. Did you find yourself ever doing that?

legitimate or studying and so forth like that, that's not in all you studying was in a BA 7032 negative sense.

LET'S CUT.

THIS IS THE CONTINUATION or INTERVIEW WITH JONES THAT CONTINUES ON TAPE # 2 LABELED JARVIS

Q: ...we pay it every/month anyway.

A: We never owned/this...

Q: By the time/you own it, it ain't/worth nothing.

A: Well, well, right, right, right, taxes and God ows we're always gonfig have, you know, a paying the rent, I ean, them things are the givens because we're a mobile society now, you gotta have a ride. I mean, you know, it just, you know.

Q:OK. Let's ah, let s get on, this should be our last roll here. OK ready Felipe.

OK LET'S ROLL SOUND AND AH, YOU TAKE YOURSELF BACK TO THAT DEBATE.

Q: Being in that hall.

TAKE 8

Q: Being in the spot.

TAKE EIGHT

Q: Your best description of language ahm, take me to that, to a, to a debate and what it's like and what makes you feel Malcolm made (unintel).

And the way Malcolm used to talk, he got a standing ovation, all the time. Especially when he used to score points in relationship BA 7581 to having the debate.] If you're familiar with the debate they know you do the positive and the negative and so forth like that.]7589 And ah, I don't care what side of the debate he was on, he did an excellent job. That was one of the good things and the brothers all felt good about that you know, there's no question about that at all but then you get into the politics, that's a different story. See, we all have certain talents that we can do certain things that people might not like you BA 7617 but they can appreciate what you're about doing. It's the same thing with ah, the brothers in the band down there, you know, they could do their job, they could play their message and that was one of the important things and people used to appreciate that, you know, whenever they used to play some good music, or whatever outside, people come in and everything, and they used BA 7649 to really get to that. One of the things that I think that one has to bear in mind that most of 'em at Norfolk, went through a

certain amount of stress dealing with the BA 7671 population and dealing with the administration. OK. And for anybody to bring theirself out of that and above that is a hell of a feat. If one understands what it is to be incarcerated and to do time and have people telling you what to do and when to do it and so for-, other words, if you can discipline yourself to keep your own program intact, you are to be commended. I think Malcolm was to be commended for his effort at keeping his program intact and then (unintel) carrying it BA 7720 to the community when he got out.

Q: OK. Tell me, tell me about um the ah, story of of ah Malcolm and ahm, and ah, the Muslims demanding their cells facing east. Is this something that you remember?

is that they were able to swap rooms with BA 7770 somebody else but as far as the administration puttin’ one guy out of one room to accommodate you, that didn't happen.

Q: OK.

Q: Did um, did Malcolm, why was he, was he known to ah, to ah, challenge the administration as he was with, with ah, not just with his, with his rhetoric but really challenge with, d-you know things that he wanted to happen toward the Muslims or things that he wanted changed. was he that kind of (unintel), had that kind of reputation?

because Norfolk Colony was a privilege to be at at that particular time so if your BA 7846 behavior or manners weren't what they considered to appropriate, they'd take you out of there. That-that-that was a fact. See, because a lot of the prison population didn't get to Norfolk because of the living conditions and the freedom and different things that they had going for the men down there at the time. It was a community within BA 7875 itself. So, it was always a privilege to be down there and ah—ah do your time so-to- speak.]7885

Q: OK. Ah, once ahm, ah, Malcolm is ah, leaves prison, and you leave prison, when do you, when do you see him again? when is the first time, the next time that you ever see him for ah Malcolm again?

Q: OK.

Q: ....when I saw Malcolm again...

Q: Tell me something.How hard is it you've been in prison how hard is to reintegrate and

come back out into the public and to ah ah, assume your own life again. I mean, what are, what are the um?

time. You know, so that-that-that is most difficult ^part of coming back to the community, BA 8121 being accepted and being able to blend in and being able to say that it's OK. That this is what you want to be about. See, you have to make up your mind that this is what you want to be about before you're gonna be about. Lot of men, myself included didn't make up my mind for a lot of years,]8148 you know,] that I as tired of this. I couldn't afford this, it cost too much. Whether it be usin’ drugs or BA 8157 goin’ to jail or whatever that, that just was too much of a price or me to continue to pay, you know.

Q: When you were uh ... in being in jail um, um, people talk about Malcolm writing lots of letters all the time, um, and the fact that the letters were ... (unintel) your mail was always open.

Q: How does that ah, talk to me about that and, and as a prisoner what does that mean

knowing that your, your private letters and things were all opened.

Q: Talk about what that is.

might be. You know, we were only allowed so many letters a week then anyway and they paid BA 8294 for the postage, you know, so, them with different things, they, one understands when he goes into to prison the different things that you have to sacrifice and that you give up. You know, [8313 being in prison in anywhere is, is, is not a dream, you know, and when you fully realize that you're locked up BA 8327 that's physically and mentally, then you might come to grips with ah getting your act together.]8339

Q: OK, LET'S Cut.

ROLLING?

YES SIR

MARK IT.

TAKE NINE

Q: OK.

out there for you to cut up any way you want, to cut up, you know, to ask questions and so forth like that.]]8475 Ah, I can think of a lot of BA 8482 other brothers that come out of the system that do good for theirself not to the fame that Malcolm got, but I mean, you know, the system helped them because they had the discipline to understand when they was in that they wanted something better than this and there was something better than this ifso ah, they wanted to buy into it. You know, so ah, BA 8512 it’s a shame in a sense [out that the brother then reaches full potential in relationship to what he wanted to be about. I feel that.

Q: OK.