Rafer Johnson Interview. Black Champions. Take 1. Roll 306. Sound 304.

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Rafer Johnson, I wonder if we could begin just talking about your high school career. You had a rather phenomenal high school athletic career, and you started out as a football player before you got in to track and field. Tell us about those years.

Well, as a youngster, I was raised in a very small community in central California. The name of the town is Kingsburg, and the population was only about 2500 when we moved to Kingsburg, back in the mid '40s. And all of the young people in that community were given opportunities to participate in all kinds of sports. I think their idea, and the people in the town's idea, was that, give all the young people an experience in all, in a variety of sports. And I, like all the rest of them, took that opportunity. And, of course, the season always begins with football, so that's where I started. But, I ran track also, I played basketball, and also was on the baseball team. It was very fortunate for me that I had that kind of beginnin', because I really think it built a tremendous base for me, and all, and many of the other kids in the community from which they could launch a, a career in most any sport.

You had the experience of seeing Bob Mathias compete in a decathlon, and apparently that inspired your interest in that particular event. I wonder if you could tell us about that.

Well it did. Again, Kingsburg is right in the center of the, of the state of California, in the central San Joaquin Valley, and at Fresno State we had Dutch Warmerdam who was a world record holder in the pole vault. Bob Mathias was just twenty-five miles away in Tulare, California. It, it, the climate being what it was, with the young people being outdoors all the time, it lead to young people being involved in all kinds of sports. But, Bob one the Olympic games in 1948 and 1952, and, of course, all the young people in the valley knew about Bob Mathias. And I had the honor of going down and, and seeing the Olympic trials in 1952 with my coach. And, on the way back, we began to discuss about the possibilities of my entering that particular event. And, as it turned out, I traditionally would compete in five, six, sometimes seven events durin' the course of a single track meet so, in order to go into the decathlon all I had to do was add about three more events, three or four more events. So, he was not only an inspiration to all of us, but we watched the film, and we learned a lot about the decathlon from Bob Mathias.

What about the decathlon did you find particularly attractive as opposed to the other sports you were competing in and excelling in at that time?

Well I started out as a, a high jumper and a sprinter. And, in central California in those years, those two events were, were loaded with some tremendous athletes. Not that the other events weren't, but I came head to head with some of the best athletes in the state, seems like every weekend. And so, I had gotten a real good background in those events, and my coach thought all along that I was a better hurdler than a long jumper. So we decided, when I started thinkin' about the decathlon, to get some additional work in those events, and as it turned out, those were my better events: the long jump and the, and the 110 meter higher hurdles than the lower hurdles. With the addition of those two events, I began to then work on the, on the javelin, which, in those days were not, was not an event in the, in the school track meets. Began to work on my shot and my discus, and it was a very short period of time before we felt like I was ready to compete in my first decathlon.

Most people who have not competed in a, in a track related sport or events of the sort know the decathlon as a grueling event. Does that mean it's grueling physical, is it, is it difficult emotionally? What, what is the gruelling element—

Well it's, it's a little bit of both of those things. It's, it obviously wears you down mentally. It's a tremendous physical test. Anytime you've gotta mix ten different track and field events in the course of two days, I mean you're talkin' about usint different sets of muscles. You're, you're talking about reacting to, sometimes, the problems in each of those events, and maybe not in each and every one, but somewhere along the way you're gonna hit one and you're not gonna do your best in. You're not even gonna come close. Whereas, some of the others that may has been a traditionally weaker event, you'll do very well. So, that was one reason I liked it. You had to approach one event at a time. You couldn't be doing the, the hundred meters and thinking forward to the fifteen-hundred meters. You had to do one event at a time. You had to react to that event, you had to finish it, you couldn't think back on that event, and you couldn't look forward to the next. You had to do exactly what you were doing at that time, and I think that that was one thing that attracted me to that event. And I full well knew that, no matter how much and how hard you train, if you weren't ready, both physically and mentally, you were not gonna do well in that event. So it was a preparation that you needed, an extensive preparation, but it was also a preparation that you knew was gonna take two days no matter what happened. You had to be there for the ten events. As, as I said before, I have, I had competed in many of those events down through the years and, and felt that I had some real fine performances in those events. I began to work on them individually, began to improve, and I think that as soon as I saw that, even in my weakest event, which was the pole vault, I went from something like nine feet to eleven-and-a-half-feet in a very short period of time, after workin' with Dutch Warmerdam up at Fresno state, I, I felt real good about makin' the choice to go into the decathlon.

How much of a role does coaching play in the preparation of an athlete for the decathlon?

Oh I think coaching is a, is a tremendous part of what the athlete eventually accomplishes, even on the Olympic level. You go to the Olympic games and you think, at that point, there's not much a coach can do, but, I'll tell you, without my coach in 1960, I would not have won that gold medal. In 1956 I finished second. I had some injury problems, but even without my coach there, I don't think I would've finished second. They know you. They know when you look your best. They really know when you are running your best. But, most of all, they know how you approach your event when you do well. And, sometimes very slight, sometimes very small, but if they can spot that problem, and get to you and talk to you about it, you are going to be a better performer. It's very difficult to be competing in an event and see yourself in, in the physical way that the coach does. And even in the mental way, because when you're under pressure, the competition is tight, sometimes you begin to think a little differently than you might think during the course of your preparation. And, I just think without the coach, many athletes who have received gold medals would not have.

Is there an ideal human being for this event, for the decathlon? Is there someone you might spot in a high school class, or at a track club, someone you might pick out and say this is a guy who should be pointed toward the decathlon? What would the elements be that you'd look for?

Well, I think an athlete in the decathlon has to be very patient. He can't be a person who gets worried about an event, say, that doesn't go quite as well as he thought it might have gone. I think an athlete in the decathlon has to have some speed, because you are dealing with some of the speed factors in your sprinting and, and quarter-miling. I think you have to have a certain amount of stamina. I think you have to be a person who can approach the event in a farily relaxed attitude, because you do have ten things to do, ten different occasions for a two day period. And, if you're not somewhat relaxed, I mean you dissipate a lot of energies either thinking, again, about what you just did or what you're going to do. And if you spend much time doing that, you're not gonna have the, the strength or the power to, to perform in, in the upcomin' event.

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Speed.

Take two.

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Rafer Johnson, 1956, you win your first national championship in the decathlon. And that's kind of a prep for the Olympic games of that year in Melbourne, Australia. I wonder if you'd tell us about, first the national championship, and your thoughts about going to the '56 Olympics.

Well, actually just prior to the national championships we, we had a meet in my hometown. The decathlon, traditionally, in those days, most communities weren't interested in decathlon, unless it was an Olympic year. And, the community that was the most interested would be the athlete's hometown. And Kingsburg was very interested, and they had a meet, and I, I did very well in that meet which, I guess, indicated in a way what might happen in the Olympic trials. I went to the Olympic trials and, and won there—

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Take three.

We were talking about the—

That's good Steve. That's good.

We were talking about the Olympic trials of 1956.

Well I won those Olympic trials and beat what was a pretty good field. It included a gentlemen who was subsequent to become my very good friend, Milt Campbell. And, in the process I had one of, one of my best performances. So, I felt real good about going into those games in 1956. Once we got down to Melbourne, I had, I had knee trouble. And, I'd also made the Olympic team in the long jump. And I, after talking with my coaches, and my coach was also there, he was a trainer for the U.S. team, Ducky Drake, they thought that it might be a good idea—

Plane, plane.

OK.

Take four.

You were saying that your coach, Elvin Drake, I believe was his name, who influenced—

Yes. My coach Drake was also with me there in those games. He was a trainer for the U.S. team. And, after some discussion, both the coaches and my coach decided it might be best if that I drop out of the long jump—I'd also made the Olympic team in that event—in hopes that I wouldn't have any trouble in the decathlon, but on the second jump, in the second event, the long jump, I re-injured that knee and really had problems during the course of those games. And, in the decathlon injury, injury is one thing you have to deal with. Hopefully, you can get through one of those without any large injuries, but, in this case, I had this problem with my knee, and I, I think it affected my performance somewhat there. But, Milt Campbell I thought performed very, very well, won the gold there. And Milt had won, finished second in the games in, in '52, was now the gold medalist in '56, and I just had to go back and work harder in preparation for the games of four years to come. But there was one thing about those games, along with the competition, that I, that I tremendously enjoyed, and that was the fact that, that the opening ceremonies were, meant so much to so many of the people who were participating. And I think that, when you talk to Olympians, including myself, the one thing that they look back on, along with their individual competition, is the fact they had the chance to participate in both the opening and closing ceremonies. Those are two moments that I think all Olympians remember.

Two years later you participate in a meet in the Soviet Union, which was the first sanctioned meet between the, The Soviet Union and The United States athletes. Now that seems to have been a particularly exhilarating time for you.

Well, it was. I was, in fact, back in my hometown working that summer. And I don't think they'd had planned on having a decathlon in that first meet. And, early in the summer, Kuznetsov, of, Vasili Kuznetsov set a world record in the decathlon and, and they decided to include that event. So I came back down to UCLA and started training. And, when I arrived there, it was an exciting time for me. It was a, after, of course, two years after '56, and the Olympic games were just two years to come and, and I really wanted to do well there. As it turned out, I, again, had a very fine performance and beat my good friend Visili Kuznetsov, and set a new world record there, so I was back on course again, and, and looking forward to the games in, in Rome in 1960. But, I found the, the Russian people very warm. They were certainty excited about the meet. And, Kuznetsov came over to me after that meet and, I think, really showed me what international competition is all about. He, we shook hands and embraced, and he said, "We look forward to meeting again in 1960", which we subsequently did.

Is there a special bond between athletes around the world? Is there something particular? You, you mentioned this relationship between yourself and the, the Russian athlete, the Russian decathlon athlete. But, there seems, for people who are outside, or who are spectators, a very particular relationship between athletes. Is that an illusion, or is it in fact so?

No, I think it's a fact. First of all, it's difficult to reach that level, and I think that all athletes are very aware of that. It's much more difficult to make the U.S. team, I think, much more pressure in trying to get on the U.S. team, than it is competing in international competition of the Olympic games. And I think the athletes know that pressure, and they realize what the other individual athletes are going through. And the same is true of athletes trying to make their own individual national teams, whether it's the U.S.S.R. or, or East or West Germany. It's a very difficult task to get on your national team. But, once you're there, the camaraderie is, of course, a little less pressurized. We're there, of course, representing our countries. We, of course, wanna do the best we can do. We're all hopeful, of doing the best we can do at the specified time that we participate in our event. I think that each and every one of us would like to walk away from our event saying, At that moment I was the best I could be. I had the pleasure, during my competitive days, of meeting some wonderful athletes. Nagalingam Ethirveerasingam was a, a friend of my from Ceylon, was a high jumper. Gerald Carr, from England, a discus thrower, represented England. George Roubanis from Greece finished third in the pole vault in 1956. I mean I could go on and on. My own teammates, and, of course, probably one of my closest friends during my competitive career was C.K. Yang from Formosa. And C.K. and I were classmates, we participated in this country, and we also, you know, were at each other in international competition as well. And, when I look back on it, I look back on, not just the fact that I was fortunate in attaining some victories and winning the gold, but all of those friends I made are very, very important, even today.

You are now, are now in 1960. And this, of course, was a very extraordinary Olympic year for a number of reasons. There were some exceptional athletes: Wilma Rudolph, Muhammed— Cassius Clay, Rafer Johnson. What was that, that particular Olympics like for you? Obviously you felt that you were in the best position to win in that year I believe.

I was in tr—, in a tremendous position. But, you know, I was a little shaky, because I look back, I was also in a great position in 1956. I was the world record holder, I'd beaten everybody in the world that year, including Milt Campbell, who subsequently won, and was expected by most to win the gold in, in Melbourne, but I didn't. And, that thought kept going through my mind. I knew I was prepared. I was prepared physically. I was ready mentally. I don't think that anybody, from any country, worked any harder than I worked, but that does not guarantee you victory in the Olympic games. So, I was just a little bit reserved in terms of going in to that event. The pressure, I thought, was again on me. But I knew that I was prepared to hopefully meet any challenge. In the wings, though, was a young man that I'd competed against for a number of years, C.K. Yang. And I knew that he was a very, very tough athlete, that you, you had to beat him in ten events, you couldn't beat him in six or seven or eight and expect to, to win. You had to beat him in ten. So I knew it was going to be a very, very tough competition. But, again, I knew I was ready. I approached the event with a very positive attitude. And knew very well that it was going to take ten very good performances to come out with the gold in 1960.

The event that seems to bedevil a lot decathloners in the 1500, later on. What is so difficult about that?

I think the most difficult thing is that most decathloner are not distance runners. I would think that most of them are like myself, either sprinters or hurdlers; shorter, quicker races. And, when you've gone through six, or seven, or eight, or nine events, and you still have to do that 1500 meters, it can't help but be on your mind. But, again, you have to dispel that. You have to push it out. You have to deal with what you're doing and, hopefully, when the 1500 meters come you, you're strong enough to, to perform in a way that's going to allow you a chance to perform to the best of your ability. I think that I was as well prepared for the 1500 meters in 1960 as I've ever been prepared for any single event.

Is it because of the nature of the event that it is the last event in the, in the d—

Well, yes that, that's probably as much to do with it as anything, being the last event. Because, by the time you go through nine events, you cannot be fresh. You are definitely tired. The humidity was in the ninety percent area in Rome.

We're out

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Black Champions. Camera Roll 308. Sound Roll 305. Take 5.

We were talking about the 1960 Olympics. Before we go any further in to the Olympics, you had an injury before the Olympics. You were, were in an automobile accident. Were you at all concerned with, that the performance was gonna be affected?

Yeah, that did enter my mind. I think any time you've been injured in sports, and I had been in 1956—

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—Hit it.

Take six.

Hit, hit the reflector back. OK.

In 1959, the year before the '60 Olympics you were in an automobile accident. Were you at all concerned about the injuries that you received? Were they still with you, or what was the situation like?

Well, of course, when I first received the injury I was quite concerned because, of course, in 1956 I had the problems I had there. And, you really don't wanna go in to a competition with any kind of injuries, because anything can happen during the course of the event itself. I had, had those injuries and had worked long and hard in the rehabilitation program with my coach and trainer and felt that, when those games came around, I was physically ready. I was, I thought, in 1960, I was in probably as good a physical shape as I've ever been in my life. I'd worked pretty hard and, of course, I had C.K. Yang there every single day. We worked together week in, week out. And, when I got to those games I felt that I was, I was ready.

Was the atmosphere of Rome in '60 any different than, was there any substantial difference between that Olympic and the previous one in Melbourne?

I, I, I think the games in, in Rome were much more colorful. I think the city itself and, and, and the people did so much to, to welcome those athletes. Not that the people in Melbourne didn't, but you know, when you're in, in Europe, and Italians, and all the things they do to, to put on a real special show, I think that we, all of us who took part in those games, were looking forward to the competition. Also in those games, you mentioned, Wilma Rudolph and Muhammad Ali and, and I got to know those people very well during those games and, and they were special and, and, and added a lot to that occasion. Not just their friendship, but what they brought to their particular specialties. They were, they were two special people.

You were selected to be the flag bearer at the '60 Olympics. Was that something you looked forward to, or surprised—

I, I was very much surprised to be chosen captain. And I think that anyone who gets that has to be surprised, because I don't think they telegraph that at all. It's, they come to you a day or two before the event and say, you know, you've been elected the captain and, and, you know, would you like to carry the flag? And I don't think I know of anyone who has not agreed to do that. I was very much surprised, very pleased, and I, I really feel that that took some of the pressure off. When I felt that the people, you know, believed in me enough that they'd wanna make me the captain of the team, then that give me a little extra boost. So I was even more ready than I had been two or three days before they came to me and asked me to do that.

In the 1960 Decathlon, is there an event, is there a moment that stands out in your memory? Was there anything particularly special about that competition?

Well, for me, it was special. There were several things that happened. First of all, the fact that I was chosen captain to carry the flag. My coach, coach Drake, was there, he was actually coaching, though, C.K. Yang. He was the coach for the Formosan team. So, that was special, to have my coach there in the stands and, you know, we could talk to him in the evenings and, and evens sometimes during the meet, during the breaks, we'd get a chance to have a small conversation. So, we felt, both C.K. and I felt very much at home there, because we had our coaches, our coach there with us. Coaches, actually, his coach was my coach. C.K., by the way, also carried his country's flag, so I, I think that we were both looking forward to the competition when it started. Kuznetsov, of course, was there. And Kuznetsov and C.K., and I had exchanged world records six, or seven, or eight times during the course of the previous four or five years. And so we all knew that the competition was going to be very, very tough. So, when you, when you go in to an event like that knowing full well what to expect, sometimes the pressure that you are carrying is really a little less of a burden, because you know that no matter what happens you've gotta be at your very best in order to come out the champion. I think the only thing that happened during the course of that event was in the pole vault. I was havin' some particular problems with my, with my vaulting, with how I was holding my hand or my approach. And C.K. came over and helped me with that event, and straightened me out, and I had won of the best vaults that I'd had in an Olympic competition. And probably the only other thing that came to mind was the 1500 meters itself, because when I got to that point, as we've talked about before, it is a tough event, it's one that we don't look forward to doing, and when I got there I had to run well. It wasn't just another event, because at that point I was not more than 150 or 75 points ahead of C.K. Yang. So that meant I had to run a very good race. In fact, if he'd beat me by ten or fifteen yards, he could, in fact, been the Olympic champion. So I had to run a good race, which I was most fortunate to do. He beat me by about two strides. And, with that performance, I was able to be, become an Olympic champ in 1960.

When you reflect upon your decathlon career, your career as an athlete, your career as a champion, how would you finish the sentence that began with the words to be a champion? And if you would say those words for us and could complete that sentence.

Well I think, to me, to be a champion you should always be dealing with being the best that you can be. I mean you should, you can never be satisfied with being anything but the best you can be. But, also, to be a champion you have to be a person or an athlete who reacts to adversity in a positive way. Because, there has never a competition, I have never gone through a decathlon where, somewhere during the course of that competition, I didn't have to react to something that happened to me that wasn't very positive. Either an injury, a poor start, a poor finish, hit a hurdle, it becomes a very, very difficult situation. In fact, I think back now on the question you asked me before, about some things that happened to me during the course of that last Decathlon. Well, in the hurdle race, I ran probably the worst hurdle race in all of my life. I ran something like fifteen, three or four, and I had, I can run that in practice, but I did that in the Olympic games. And, that point, C.K. Yang moved back in front by over a hundred, a hundred-and-fifty points. Again, a little adversity, not much, but I think that, when you're thinking about being the champion, your reactions to things like that have to be positive. You have to figure out a way to come back in the next event to do better than you've ever done before, because you've just run as poorly as you ever have. So I would say, to be a champion, you react to adversity in a positive way.

[inaudible] Let's stop it there.

Cut.

I'm rolling.

Steve, hit it.

Take seven.

Wait for me now—

Your reflections on being a torch bearer in the 1984 Olympics.

Well I had been one of fifty-thousand volunteers, was selected by Peter Ueberroth to carry the torch, actually I'd been in New York. I, I transferred the flame from the urn from Greece, to the first torch in New York, which was run by Gina Hemphill and Bill Thorpe. Is that plane, is that bothering us?

Cut.

Steve. Steve, hit it.

Take 8.

I'd been in New York had transferred the— I'd been to New York and had transferred the flame from the urn that came from Greece to the first torch, which was carried by Gina Hemphill and Bill Thorpe. I subsequently ran a leg in, in Dallas. And was thrilled, on July 28th, to be the person chosen by Peter Ueberroth to carry the torch the final leg, to light the torch that was to burn over the stadium, the coliseum, for the 23rd Olympiad. It was, I still can't yet put in words how I felt. You know, one of fifty-thousand volunteers who'd worked months, weeks, five years to make the games a success, and to be the person chosen was, needless to say, one of the highlights of my athletic career. To have competed in 1956 and 1960, and then twenty-four, twenty-four years later, to be as involved in the games as that, was a moment that, that I'll never forget.

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