MISC: This’ll be interview with ah Gordon Parks on camera roll 100, sound roll 49.

Q: Everyone else is trying to get their families out of, you know, my family moved out of Baltimore to New Hampshire.

Q: The idea to get——I think they felt they were losing us, you know. So...

Q: Take ’em off to the country.

Q: Ah, southern. Around Nashua.

Q: But for me to get down--like fifteen, there's a big difference between northeast Baltimore and...

Q: Now I think what you know, what I would have done if I'd stayed there, you know, if we stayed in Baltimore . You know there would have been a whole lot of different choices.

mixed high school, but segregated grade school and I expect the high school would have probably been segregated had the town fathers had enough money to build another high school! But even though we went to high school, we weren't allowed to play on the football teams, the basketball team. Nor was we allowed to attend any of the class parties or anything of that sort. Pretty horrible. Of course they have made amends now. They made me Kansan of the Year twice. And we’ve..caused a halt to the hostilities. So. h I'm kind of hero back there now. They called this morning and want to do something on my next birthday. State of Kansas. So, as I say, there's big changes there. Yet and still there's still people sufferin you know, the same thing I suffered. Not as flagrantly in the schools and things. In those days the 1 teachers actually told you to forget a college preparatory course ’cause all black people were gonna be were maids and porters. That was, was the attitude. If you wanted to accept that, that was up to you. But they certainly told you.

Q: That's exactly the same experience Malcolm had in school.

Q: That's the same experience Malcolm had in school.

Q: He wanted to ah——

Q: Twenty-five.

Q: Oh, he was born in in Omaha.

Q: And for example--

Q: No, about the same.

Q: It's interesting ’cause Kansas ah, is, was founded by the Free Soilers. The movement with John Brown out there with all those people.

Q: Part of that early history.

Q: How much more?

MISC: Standing by.

Q: Okay. Let's do this, let's, what I plan on for us to start with is um, let me go over

the book here and see, cause I'll start with ah the first um, when you first hear—-

Q: I'm gonna ask you-—let me, let me--pause the tape. My questions don't appear on camera.

Q: So, what I, we we ask is that uh, the answers are incorporate the question.

Q: When we talk about Malcolm we name him. We don't say "he," "it," things like that, because the audience won't know what we're talking about unless we name people.

Q: Fifty—two.

Q: Fifty-three.

Q: Fifty—three.

Q: Fifty-two was the year he came to New York. He came in as a minister for——

MISC: Rolling.

Q: Let’s hold on for a second.

MISC: Holding.

MISC: Speeding. One.

Q: Okay. Give me your first um, experience with Malcolm. How do you first remember him. Impression that you....

thought I could do it. A story on Malcolm, BF 0160 on on the Muslims and- with a white reporter. I said of course not,I can't do that. Ah, they would never accept it. That's why you haven't gotten in so far.And eh, I agreed if—-and they agreed with me——that if if I had the chance, that I would have to write the story myself because I didn't particularly trust white reporters reporting on my coverage of the black Muslims. And they BF 0204 agreed to that. So they so Okay, let's go. So I set off and uh, [[0216 I saw Malcolm for the very first time in person on the corner of hundred and twenty-fifth street and Seventh Avenue, which is now Adam Clayton Powell, eh and he was telling off about four hundred white cops with guns on their hips, heh heh, at what he thought of them. The, and I said eh, ah how long this young man's gonna live like that. Because eh, there were a lot of 'guns around him.]0261 And ah, I approached him after the speech and eh said, he...knew who I BF 0277 was. And he said well let's go over to the restaurant on, the Muslim restaurant on Lenox Avenue and ah, have rose tea. I said fine.

So the first thing I ask him was about the BF 0298 possibility of my covering the black Muslims. And he said, Well, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad would have to decide that. And I said would you...intercede for me. He said yes, I'll call him; he's in Phoenix, Arizona for his health. And ah, so he'll, Elijah Muhammad said, Come on out. And Malcolm flew with me. First thing Elijah Muhammad said to me was, Why you working for the white devils. BF 0346 I said, Well, y—you know, you ever heard of getting behind the iron horse and finding out what's going on? He said ah, I don't buy that, and then heh heh heh, and in any case, after Malcolm and I flew to Phoenix Arizona, the interview lasted hardly more than fifteen minutes with Elijah Muhammad. And ah, Malcolm and I were on our way to the airport, he said, I think he likes you. I said well he has a damn fool way of showing it hehhahah! You know! But ah, I was invited BF 0402 back. This time I ah, I got the same I was, sort of treatment up until the last moment before I was ready to leave. I think it was ten minutes this time! And ah, Elijah

Muhammad offered me a half million dollars if I would do a film and a st- a story on the black Muslims for the black Muslims. And I said, Well! I was very honored, however I BF 0445 was a reporter and I was afraid he’d...try to have some too much influence with my coverage. He says well you can bet your life if I gave you half million dollars I would try to have some influence! Said I understood that. But just as as Malcolm and I were getting ready to get in the car, he said, But just a minute, young man. He said, I'm going to give you a try. He says and Brother Malcolm's going to escort you to the world of Islam and if I like what you do, ah, I'll send you a big box of cigars. If I don't like what you do, we'll be out to visit BF 0505 you. Heheh! And that's the way Malcolm and I got started. And ah, Malcolm was very amused at that retort.

Q: Okay. Let me take you back to where when you said you first saw him at hundred twenty- fifth street and ah, ah, and um, Seventh Avenue. Um, describe for me what it's like.

Those street corner, ah, speeches that Malcolm would give. Give me a descriptive idea of what it would be like.

their guns, y’know. And I thought c- certainly there was going to be some sort of BF 0668 problem. They tried to move the crowds on. But they restrained themselves.

Q: some people say that that at ti- they restrained themselves, also that Malcolm had an interesting way of controlling the crowd. That you felt he had it all under control all the time. No matter how--

Q: Mm hm. Talk to me about you and, and Malcolm coming, you know, getting together. I mean, you're, you're coming from a whole different world than Malcolm. How is relating to you, uhm Malcolm would lash out at what his considered black bourgeoisie people, black people who were on the other side. People who, who had friends that they considered, that they have white friends and

they co’—, if they have whites they consider friends, he would come out at people that you have to, did he, did he confront you on these things? Did you talk about him? How did, how did you work?

Well, no, we never had any confrontations. In fact he told me that he noticed a lot of my, that some of the stories, I think he'd seen the Harlem gang story that I did in Harlem, and some stories I had done on poverty, eh, in Washington DC with the foreign security administration, so, uh as he came to, as close as admiration eh would afford him, uh under the circumstances. Not totally accepting me, uh bec’-, since I work for a white organization which was Life Magazine. Uh, he but [[0874 there was always a, uh Mr. Parks. It was never brother. I, I would, I tried brother with him several times, but it never worked. It was always, "Yes, Mr. Parks." It was always that aloofness, calling sir. Not hostility, just sort of aloofness, you know? Uh, and uh not BF 0910 until a year or so later, that one day on, on

a plane uh coming betwee’-, between uh Los Angeles and New York, we took a night plane then he was uh sleepy, and he leaned over on my shoulder, and said, "Well brother, you know, I read a "Choice of Weapons," I think BF 0948 that perhaps one should read that book several times and think about it." And went to sleep. Dropped his head on my shoulder. And so the nex’-, when we reached New York I said uh, "You called me brother for the first time." And he said, "Well, for the first time you deserved it." ’Cause I had been through the fire with him when, during that, the killing out there of one of the Muslims in Los Angeles.]0990

Q: I'm going to ask you about that.

fire with him during that~ these, killing out there of one of the Muslims in Los Angeles.

Q: I'm going to ask you about that. [mumble] I want to talk specifically about that. Okay, we'll rechange. BEEP What I'd like to talk, what I'd like to ask--

MISC: Oh. That was the, that was the end of s— camera roll 100. We're moving on to camera roll 101 on 49. Continuation of interviewwith Mr. Gordon Parks.

Q: How many rolls of film did you shoot on Leadbelly?

MISC: Mark. Two.

Q: So, so tell me when you first meet Malcolm: how, how, does he challenge you?

Do you feel challenged in his presence? In what ways?

on the story, he came to me and he said the BF 1167 people at Life Magazine want to talk with me. They want to have me up for luncheon. Do you- h—how do you want me to handle that? I says, Give 'em hell. I said, Act the same way you act when you're on a hundred and twenty-fifth street and Seventh Avenue. Don't change. He said, I admire that. Just like that. I said, Well fine. So. He did. He, he gave them hell. And uh, and he came BF 1208 out smiling when I s- you know. So, we never had any problems that way. Eh he...he respected what I did. And I respected what he did. There were instances ah, when he was softened eh eh[...[1237 I remember a a white girl coming in to t e—restaurant in Harlem, offering her help to the Muslims in some way because she sympathized with them. And uh, he said, Thank you sister, but no. And later in the car he said to me, eh, with a sort of BF 1271 touch of melancholy in his voice, eh, I didn't like doing that. He said. The young lady was sincere. But, this is the way it is.]]1288

Q: Tell me, when you when you go to s- to meet Elijah Muhammad the first time with Malcolm, what is their relationship like? How do they...describe what you sense between them in terms of relationship. At that first meeting, when you first-—

Q: You have to tell me what meeting we're talking about, too, so—-

Q: Tell me, include what meeting we're talking about so the audience’ll know we're, what we're talking about.

One of great ah, you could see that Malcolm BF 1365 had a tremendous admiration for this man. Respect for him. And uh, he was very ah, kind with Malcolm. Stern. But kind and spoke to him in a way that he'd speak to one of his sons. And uh, I sensed a a very sincere relationship between the two.]]1398

Q: So, when you go back the second time, ah, ah, this is when Elijah Muhammad says it's okay to do this, and tell me that again? How does- how does that meeting go again?

half million dollars to do something—that’s not bad. And uh, I’d, I think that eh deeply within Malcolm he felt, when I refused it, BF 1505 that he felt a respect growing fro me. He never admitted it. But, I could tell by the look on his face.

Q: Did um, what year was this in, um that You went, this was in...?

Q: Sixty-one?

Q: What, what year was this?

Q: Sixty-one oh-the-the- latest was sixty- two

Q: Okay. Okay, I'm only asking because, tell me, um, Elijah Muhammad's in Phoenix 'cause of his health. What kind of—-

Q: Because of his health.

Q: How, what kind of um, what shape is he in when you meet him, talking about this--

Q: Okay, let's start again. Tell me Elijah Muhammad was suffering from....

but uh, eh he was walking sturdily and uh, ah he sat down immediately and motioned for us to sit down. Both of us were s- remained BF 1622 standing until he gave us the permission to sit down! And uh, h—he was s- coughing a little bit, wheezing a little bit. And I and why he was in Arizona for his health.]]1654

Q: When um, so, once your- you get the go- ahead to do this, this uh, the project, um, you then begin to go- get inside the Nation of Islam and take and do a photo essay of of them. Were you...surprised by what you saw? Talk about some of the things that you saw and some of the things you put in the pictures. ’Cause we'll use some of the pictures. Talk about that.

restore their faith in in themselves and in their hopes and building their hopes and things of that sort. And, [[1745 I found in in the BF 1748 mosque such order, sternness but order; everybody neatly dressed. Ah, and uniformity in just about everything.] It was ah almost semi—military, in a sense. And uh, Malcolm would go up with a long stick and point to a blackboard and explain what ah Elijah Muhammad expected of...Muslims and so forth.] And he talked about ah,]1803 the good and bad that's that was happening with the black families and what the Muslims and Mus— life could do about it. And he talked about prisoners, eh, the prisoners’ life and on BF 1831 drugs and how they aimed to get them all out and...make a better life for them and, and he was very good. Ah, and they all held a tremendous respect for him.

Q: You had a, you have one photo that I think was um pretty surprising to everyone: the the the training with the police dog?

Q: The training that they had with the eh German shepherd where they——

said, I would turn him from my door and would BF 1982 never allow him in again. Just like that. So I asked Malcolm about that. He says, He meant it. And he would do it. I says, not worry about what happen to his son? No, he wouldn't worry about what happened to him. His allegiance was with Elijah Muhammad.]]2013

Q: That's good. BEEP What I'd like to do is pick up now with ah the trip to um Los Angeles. Talk about the Los Angeles incident. What you see there and how Malcolm is responding to it. Um, what they do, were actually doing--

Q: Um. There are, the man in Los Angeles was killed, um--

Q: Briefly, Stokes.

Q: Stokes. Louis- Ronald Stokes.

MISC: This’1l be continuation of ah Gordon Parks interview, on camera roll 102, sound roll 50.

Q: Sixty—two.

MISC: Speeding. Mark. Three.

Q: Okay, talk to me about going to Los Angeles. How do you, how does that happen?

me Mister Parks. But, he called me and said, eh, can you get out here and I said uh why, BF 2562 yes. And he said, you know, I I f- I think there's gonna be a lot of trouble, or a few, eh there's trouble so, I don't have to talk. And h—he sounded uh a little worried a—about something. Says, get out as quickly as you can and he told me where I could reach him. I said fine.]]2591 And uh, two days later I was, I got out there. And s—sure enough, things had BF 2606 really had happened. Police had gone into the mosque and there’d been some confrontation with the young Muslims out in ah, in front of the mosque about...I don't know if it was something the cops were saying that...something was stolen or something and and there probably wasn't but they were just, they wanted some reason to get something s- started. And, Keep the pot boiling, y’know.And they wound up in the mosque eh ah where they entered and, that's when Ronald Stokes was BF 2666 shot. And uh, Malcolm and I got up there late, a—after Ronald was was shot. Ah. Fact, Malcolm got there before I did, and uh and er, when I got there it'd all happened

and I remember next day a Malcolm was going to the morgue, I think, to get shoot pictures himself of Ronald Stokes. And uh, those pictures he he used, eh, either he took them or someone else took them. He had the pictures he used it outside the trial in Los BF 2733 Angeles when the cops were put on trial for the the shooting of M— of the Stokes gentleman. And um.

Q: Now, in in Los Angeles there was a lot of um, ah ah excitement le- fervor in the- excitement in the community around it because other, even other groups kind of joined in to to protest what had happened.

they'd say, no, take this, read it. I saw a little white lady take the paper and hurry down the street.But ah, it was a very, there was very tense out there. And the cops were patrolling the streets and Malcolm was BF 2849 laughing at them. And would every now and then say something to a squad car or something that passed. They'd just look at him and go on. ]]2864

Q: Did Malcolm ever talk to you—-

MISC: Excuse me, could ah, Mr. Parks, you scoot a little closer to the table? An inch or two.

Q: Did ah, Malcolm- did Malcolm ever say anything to you about what he wanted to do with this incident. I mean um, I he saw it as an incident of police brutality. What was his intent; what did he want to, to get out of it or to do about it?

they shouldn't have used. 2926[[ They they didn't find anybody armed insidei he mosque and they did the shooting, and ah, Malcolm wanted to BF 2944 use this as a point to show the rest of the world that these guys were using ec— excess brutality, especially against the Muslims.] Not only black people, but especially the ah Muslims they were using ah force against.]2968 And ah, eh he had something to further his cause certainly. [[2982 Because there Ronald Stokes was dead. And the cops were now admitting that he was not armed. So it looked as BF 3003 though they had a very...cut and dried case against the cops.]3010

Q: Was this the Malcolm X you experienced out in L.A.: was it was it, was this a new Malcolm for you? Had you ever seen him like this before? And describe what he was like when he, while he was there. What wh— when you—-

Q: Tell me who we're talking about.

Q: I'm sorry about this stopping. Start again, okay? Because we don't know who um, who you're talking about. So: Malcolm was terribly angry.

Q: You said "he was very terribly ang-" I mean, you just, you have to tell—-

When I got there they w- they were taking s- BF 3113 people out the ambulances and things of that sort. Some other people had been shot, but Ronald Stokes was the only one who had died. And Malcolm was furious. You know. He was furious. And I expected that particular moment something really explosive eh ah taken over. The whole black community, I thought it was. But uh, Malcolm sort of kept things under control. I could see then h— his power BF 3157 amongst people. ’Cause a lot of young men wanted to...do damage and uh, he kept them cool.]]3172

Q: Malcolm, Malcolm always talked about um, you know, if you mess with us we'll mess with you, and—-

Q: If you mess with us—-if you put a hand on us-—we put a hand on you.

Q: Um, and in a certain sense that was a part of what was—-

MISC: Just hold on. It's coming.

Q: That's fast. BEEP I'm having a good time heh—heh—heh! which ro1l- how many rolls have we done so far?

MISC: Moving on to camera roll 103 on ah sound roll 50. Continuation of interview with Mr. Gordon Parks.

MISC: Speeding. Mark. Four.

Q: So talk to me about the the the ah the challenge that Malcolm has facing him here in terms of what he's he he's been he preaches and what he's he's confronted with there and how do you feel— how do you see him working that out?

Q: What t- what did he mean by that?

Q: How did um, going- after that meeting with Elijah Muhammad, how was Malcolmmmm ah what is what is his...spirit. What is his action?

Q: Talk to me about them.

flew back to Chicago. Ah, he stopped there for a meeting, if I remember, and he was rather fiery on the streets then.] He was BF 3468 really..the eh, the most I'd I'd ever seen in him shake his fist at crowds and try to bring the people to a a real pitch against the the white police force there in Chicago. You know, he was saying the thing that- and th- and_they there's a lot of police around, too.]3511 He let them have it even worse than he had let them have it in New York. Because I suppose what he was trying to do was live up to the speech he'd just received from Elijah BF 3529 Muhammad. About the Muslims not having enough faith in Allah to...have prevented Ronald Stokes from being killed.

Q: So, ho- I mean, you're viewing from the outside and and your listening to faith being the the um the element that's going to protect you against attacks and stuff. How are you responding to this. What do you...?

Q: You personally.

Q: So, not long after that, you you want to take, you want to finish up your article and you want to do a picture of the leadership of the Nation of Islam. Talk to me about inquiring about that picture and what what happens and what you take from that.

and was ready to go to press, ah Life Magazine asked me for one more picture. Says BF 3703 could I do a something about photographing the leaders in the group. And I said, well, Elijah Muhammad is still in Phoenix, Arizona. They would all have to go out there. And so I called up Malcolm. And eh...he said I think it can be done, ah, but eh why don't you call Herbert, who was Elijah Muhammad's son, and ask him to set it up. So, I said BF 3750 fine and I called up Herbert in Chicago. And Herbert says, Yes, I can arrange it. And I said well I will fly out with Brother Malcolm. And he said, you know, he said, you don't have to bring Brother Malcolm. And I said but, w-we want the leaders. And he said, well I still say you don't have to bring Brother Malcolm. Just like that. So I cut it off. And I called Malcolm back and Malcolm said, that's fine. That's the way it should be. Ah, and do me one favor. I said what's that. He said, eh eh print the story, BF 3808 please ah, you know, give Elijah Muhammad full due and see that he is the main part of the your story, and not me. You know. Eh-I

said well it's going to be very difficult, but I will try. I'll work on that. And that's why Elijah Muhammad's picture was used full page at the beginning of the story. BF 3854 It's bec- at Malcolm's request that I do that. And I felt I owed Malcolm that.]]3861 And uh, I ah argued with the editors for s- the first picture that they had laid- in the lay- out was of a very s— s- strong picture of Malcolm that has been published of him, speaking to a crowd. With ah like that, with his hands up. And um, I said no. I don't want to use that picture there. I rather have Elijah Muhammad's picture there, full BF 3910 page. And finally they agreed with me after I told them why I wanted it there and that I felt Malcolm deserved to be listened to on this particular subject.

Q: Now, the um, your your editor, the people at Life and most people in the media, they saw, basically they saw Malcolm as--

Q: -—the uh, the leader.

Q: Talk about the press. How did the press see it. When the press saw the Nation of Islam they saw who?

sessions as to when we were laying out stories. No. I want the, want Elijah Muhammad's picture there.

Q: What did you- so what did you take from the conversation about who would be in picture of the leadership. And Malcolm's request that Elijah Muhammad be placed forward. Was this- did you s- feel that there was something changing here, or something that was—-

just wanted to be one of the soldiers. That was his word. ]]4153

Q: And and do you think the people- there were people who ah...ah, did not want to see him take the the the the heir apparent or...was that what was going on at that time, or?

MISC: We just Rolled out ...voice BEEP

Q: We're getting close to the end ...

UH THIS IS SOUND ROLL FIFTY-ONE ON CAMERA ROLL ONE OH FOUR. BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X. EIGHT HUNDRED, CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH MR. GORDON PARKS.

SPEEDING. MARK. FIVE.

Q: Uhm, was Malcolm seen at the center of the organization by most people in the press, especially for your people?

for the Muslim hierarchy eh but he would always say the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, BF 5079 he'd always put that first, you know.] He always did that.] He never uh, you know, presented a philosophy without at’-, attributing it to that Elijah Muhammad. And [he was very sensitive about that suspicious. He seemed to be aware that people felt that he was uh, a threat in, in the terms of leadership to take over and there some Muslims in, inside the movement who probably BF 5137 did feel that way. No doubt they did.] No doubt about it.]5143

Q: Uhm, so, it's interesting ’cause uh you, you were, you published the uhm article. How does Malcolm feel about the article once it's published?

Q: He told you this?

He said, "Well, I'm waiting on word from the Honorable Elijah Muhammad." as to whether he liked it. I didn't get my cigars but uh I, BF 5184 he gave me a pleasant nod, uh on the story on the Muslims, itself.

Q: You, uhm, you and Malcolm become closer friends through all of this, and uhm, uhm, even uhm actually become a god father for one of his children. Did that surprise you when he did that?

sort of a c'-, c’-, close family association with them now. But uh I, Malcolm and I BF 5288 really felt like brothers near the end.] In fact, he came to my house unannounced about two days or three days before he was, was, was uh assassinated, and invited me to the uh meeting that Sunday afternoon. I didn't have a chance to get there,]5321 but he had sent me postcards from all over Europe where he had BF 5336 gone and just about every place he went, I'd get a postcard from him.

Q: Mm hm. How did you feel when you heard that uhm Malcolm had been silenced? Uhm, what, did it surprise you or did you feel something like this was going to happen? How did you respond?

Q: Let's try again, because you said assassinated and we're talking about when he was silenced.

Q: when he's, when he's told...

Q: When uhm, uh down the line uhm uh when he found he actually announced that he's leaving uhm are you in touch with him them? And how is he at that stage when he decides that he's

not going to get back in, that he's going to have to go off on his own?

Q: So uhm, you, you were away in, in Europe and when you come here, this is right after his house had been bombed?

Q: So how, how did you uhm, when you heard that his house had been fire bombed, what, what is your respo’—, what is your reaction? What do you feel has happened?

Q: He said so’-, I think that's, that's the time when he said something to you like uhm, uhm, "Your time for mar’-, martyrs." and uh,

so talk to me about, a’-, and he also kind of talks about his time in the Nation. What is, what is the, what are the things that he talks about, that you guys talk about when he, when he comes up to see you that time?

Q: Did you express concern of your own towards him and suggesting to him, well maybe things that he could do to...

Q: Did you express co'—, your own concern for him and what you thought he could do to maybe avoid some of the problems?

a look at what, uh I was very concerned for them after he had left. I walked out to the drive with him and uh, and uh I just said, BF 5884 "Good luck, brother!" just like that. And uh he said, "OK. Don't worry." uh...]]5896

Q: When he said this, when he, when he started talking about time for martyrs and stuff, how did you, what had your response?

Q: Uhm, so where...let's cut.

ONE OH FIVE, UHM, TAKE SIX.

MARK. SIX.

Q: Uhm, so uhm, tell how you uhm learned of the assassination. You weren't there, but where were you, and how did you find out?

Q: Mm hm.

couldn't. Uh, so I came into, I was out in, BF 6081 possibly out in Westchester when I heard it, up near White Plains. I had an apartment down in the city. I we’-, I drove down there and then I just drove on up to Malcolm's home to be with Betty and the kids. And uh they was sitting around uh watching you know, the television. It was all over the news, and the two fellows were there who broke one of the guys legs when he, after he sho’-, shot BF 6135 Malcolm. They were there. [[6136 And uh Betty was uh naturally upset, the kids were, the younger kids didn't really realize what had happened. They knew something terrible happened. They were sort of pulling on Betty, you know, and she was distraught, naturally.]]6163 And uh, the, two of the fellows asked me f I would take them home with me, they didn't want to go back to Harlem. So I wasn't going back up to Westchester that night, and I little s’-, sports car, it was a two-seater. And both of ’em were big, pretty BF 6197 big men, and I said I'd, "I don't think either one, one of you could get into this car." And I was driving a little XKE. They

said, "Oh, we'll get in all right. We do’-, we don't want to go back to Harlem. It's too BF 6213 hot tonight." I had an apartment down on So, Bickman Place at the time, which is a very exclusive little street. Sort of a lily white, as they would call it. And uh, I took them there, and uh I notified Life Magazine uhm, eh it's just the manager that they were there, and uh I knew that they would expect me to, and I said, "Fine." Uh, I just start BF 6258 writing a story on it, and uh both of the fellas that told me that they needed money, I think they wanted to get out of town for a while. So, I got Life Magazine's in the uh, an advance, and they did. And they were rather nervous, they was telling me all this, that parts of the story and what had happened. Uh I got all the information from them, and uh they slept in my bed, and I sat BF 6311 up all night in the living room, writing. And the next I, I gave them money, you know, ‘cause they needed it, and then they left. And I never sa’-, saw them after that.

Q: You had a story, you were talking about the uh, the uh children and it's interesting that they were all there, and uh at the, at the ball room, and you were saying that they didn't really grasp what had happened and you were talking them seeing the incident on TV and do you remember what you were, at that time...?

situation. Very emotional moment for all of us.]6435

Q: Did uhm, there were uhm, how did Ha’-, how did Harlem respond, I mean in terms of the, the community, in general? How did New York kind of respond to this, uh especially Harlem, in your own mind, people in this town?

morning, and uh lawyers and things are around BF 6555 to check out your stories, and uh I suppose I turned my story in about twelve o'clock that night. The managing editor read it, eh but there were names listed on a list that Betty took off of Malcolm when he was shot, it had blood on it. And there were names on it. I had included those names in the story, and uh I talked to a so’-, a source close the Muslims and read the story, and they advised BF 6612 that I take those names out, that it would only cause more problems. And I agreed with him. Uh, the managing editor, who was George Hunt at the time, said, "No, this Life Magazine and we print what we feel is news. And that's news." But the three lawyers agreed with me, and I said uh, "Look." He says, "Well, we'll put marines around your house." I said, "I don't want any marines around my house, uh and want the names taken if, uh, I thi’-, I think it's advisable that BF 6668 they talk them off." And all the lawyers at Time Life agreed with me. So we took them off, and uh that was that.

Q: Explain eh uh, now tell me about this, where did you get those names from to give me the access. Where did these names, where did you get the names from, so that I know what you're talking about.

Q: Tell me who the names were and where you...

I checked it out thoroughly to see if there was anything in it I, I, I didn't want in BF 6769 there. And uh that's when I learned that Life Magazine had, had three bomb threats that day, while I was writing at least. I didn't know about that, I wasn't told about t hat till about three o'clock in the morning. And uh, the story came out uh Life uh Magazine called me and said that FBI was there, and that they had uh said that uh I BF 6806 was to be assassinated and that uh they had gotten on a plane with uh one gentlemen who was supposed to lead the group of four, who was supposed to assassinate me and they sat down beside him on a plane in Chicago and asked him where he was going. He said, “New York." And they said, "Well, we're going with you." And he got up and left. And he tried again the next day, and he got up and left again. so de’—, Life Magazine decided immediately to send m’—, m’-, my family with BF 6856 me out of the country, which they did, they put us on a jet. My grandson, my children, and everyone else, and flew us out of the country right away, ‘til things cooled down.

I developed a toothache because if anything BF 6875 was going to happen to me oh uh I didn't want to be, want it to happen around my family, around my grandson, so I got on a plane and came back to New York, and Life uh Magazine moved me to the, a suite in the Hotel Plaza, and put bodyguards on both ends of my suite. And that was a, and I went and roamed the halls, and I went through that for a month or BF 6922 so, and got tired of it, and I said, "Well, if anybody wants to kill, they gonna kill me.", and I got my sports car, drove up to Harlem by myself, slipped away from the detectives and had tea with Brother Joseph who was the head of the, more or less of the, uh b’-, Fruit of Islam. And, we talked about tea, we talked about the weather, we talked about family life, everything, everything but Malcolm. And I got up, bade him goodbye, I BF 6980 got in my car, went back to Life Magazine, told them call off the police and they did. And that was the end of that.

Q: Were you ever uh subpoenaed to testify in the investigation?

Q: You were never questioned?

Q: OK. We run out?

THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X SHOW NUMBER EIGHT HUNDRED ON SOUND ROLL FIFTY-TWO, CAMERA ROLL ONE OH SIX. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH UH GORDON PARKS.

Q: Mr. Parks were there when, when uhm, they're carrying the body out, also, at the mosque, at the LA mosque?

Q: Are you there when they're carrying some of the uhm...

Q: Yeah.

Q: When they carry the body out?

Q: Yeah.

Q: Uh huh. Oh, OK. Is that right after he's shot.

Q: Seemed like one scene.

MARK. SEVEN.

Q: OK. Uhm, Mr. Parks uhm talk to me about, you, you are unseen at the uh, in LA when the body's brought out, describe what that scene was like, when they brought it out?

Q: OK. Tell me where we are.

Q: So was Malcolm there inside when this happens?

Q: How, what's, what's the uh, the mood, what's the communi’4, uh the people in the streets, people from the communities other than Muslims there at the time?

Q: Now, when you hand in your story, you, you write that the police officers guilt uh Donald Weiss. Talk to me about what happens when you hand it in, how you uh, what happens with your editors when you, you hand this in.

And uh finally uh the assistant managing editor agreed with me, and says, "Well, it's BF 7822 Gordon's right, you know, they're the court records. Right here it says it, so." Uhm,, Life went with it, they said it, you know.]]783

Q: Uhm, I want to jump ahead uhm, I remem’-, uhm when uhm the day of the assassination uhm, and you're in the house uhm, you're uhm, I think Atswa and one of the other daughters are discussing their father, whether he's coming home or not. What happens there and uh, uh in that scene, and, and I think uh Betty kind of handles it uh...

Q: Tell me what ta’-, what we're talking about.

sensed what had happened and that, that dead, BF 7913 their father was dead an that they weren't going to see him again, uh, and it was sort of taken a hold of Betty's hand and she was walking from the living room to the kitchen, back and forth, watch a little bit on TV, go back to the kitchen, and she was, wa’—, naturally sobbing and uh every now and then, and then I said, one of the kids said, "Well, Mama is Daddy comin’ home?" Just like that, BF 7952 she said. So she said, "No, sweetheart, bu’- Daddy won't be comin’ home." Just like that, but very tough on them, you know. I don't know which one of the kids, but it was one of the younger kids, so I just sensed that the kid could not have realized that at that moment that their father would never come home again.][ And I had been around Malcolm when he had been around his family. He was a good father. He treated the girls beautifully. He was, he treated beautifully. BF 7993 He was not the fiery monster at home. He was always on the street corner. He was a gentle, sweet guy, you know, very sweet. And X sometimes we had moments when he was awfully,

awfully gentle, sweet, you know, and so, we developed sort of a brotherhood amongst the BF 8023 two of us, you know, I liked him, just got to be like my brother. And I'm sure I got to be like his brother.]]8034

Q: Uhm, at the, at the uhm, at the scene of the assassination, Betty had gotten a list off of Malcolm that he had written as a sa’-, ’cause I think he, he was coming there to talk about who he felt was after him.

Q: Can you talk to me about that?

when the story was published I had decided that the names should not be used, and it would only cause more trouble.]8122

Q: OK. Let's cut.

MARK. EIGHT.

Q: I know this is hard, but talk to me about that moment when you, you just explaining to me about Betty and how she's dealing with uhm at this moment.

kitchen again, for no reason whatsoever, just to go toward the kitchen. Uh, one of the little girls reached up, put her hand in Betty's and says you know, "Mamma, is Daddy BF 8231 comin' home?" She says, "No, honey, Daddy's not coming home." You know, just like that. And uh then she's coming back and watch some more, ’til the news finished.]]8259

Q: OK. That's good.