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Preferred citation:
Interview with Robert Mangum, conducted by Blackside, Inc., for Malxolm X. Washington University Libraries, Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection.
SOUND ROLL FIFTY-TWO, TAKE ONE.
SPEED. MARKER. ONE.
Q: OK. Talk to me about early Harlem, the Harlem that you remember in the, say in the forties. Uhm ...
Well, uh, I came to Harlem when I, in the thirties, actually, uh after living De'-, in Detroit, Michigan for uh thirteen years. A'-, although I was born in Peasburg, Virginia. When I came to Harlem in the thirties uh it was a place that uh I lived on a hundred thirty East Street between uh Fifth and Lenox Avenue, and uh what was so wonderful about the place was you could go anywhere anytime of the day or night, really, and not have any problems. I remember as a fourteen-year-old I could leave my house and go to a hundred twenty-fifth Street and with my girlfriend, you know, and go down to Woolworth's Store and buy crackers, uh cookies rather, and, and uh nobody ever
bother you or, or bother the girl either.
Uh, it was rare for example to uh hear about
narcotics, never heard about narcotics, not
among any of my friends. I played basketball
with a lot of guys, unfort'-, there were
gangs, uh youth gangs, of course they, I
guess that we've had those eternally. But,
uh basically they didn't do what they do, do
now. They, they might have little fist
fights and so forth. Uh, the streets were
cleaner, uh there were certain sections that
were absolutely the most desirable places to
go, like what we call Strivers Road
the first black police surgeon'-, uh li'-, lived on that block. I worked for a doctor uh dermatologist uh on, on the block, which is crowded with doctors ands'-, s'-, and lawyers, and the houses were beautifully maintain, streets were clean. Same thing true on a hundred thirty-eighth Street between uh Seventh Avenue and Eighth Avenue, and ...
Q: What was, what was the uhm, the night life. What, I mean, do people talk about the night life and the, the, the, the excitement of Harlem as well as the ...
Well, smallest
Uh, there were all kinds of uh bars along Seventh Avenue and Lenox Avenue, Lenox Lounge down by uh a hundred twenty-fifth Street and Lenox Avenue, was uh always had uh entertainment. As a matter of fact there used to be a bowling alley down there and there used to be a world champion fighter named Bo Jack. And I used to bowl with Bo Jack, as a matter of fact, when I later became a policeman. But all over Harlem there were restaurants that had music, people came up uh of all races came up to Harlem, no problems. As a matter of fact, it was probably uh one of the main entertainment centers in all, all of New York City. And it was a pl'-, uh, wha'-, a must see thing, you had to come Harlem, to Harlem. so ...
Q: Tell me, tell if I wh'-, how did Harlem in uh, in the early forties when, when uh war broke out, how did they impact, how did it affect Harlem, what happened in Harlem? Did Harlem respond strongly to it?
Well, uh, we, we, we had, there was a, a battalion of uh black troops that were assigned uh, there was a, in Harlem on a hundred and tenth street, and they were all over the Harlem. They enjoyed some very good times I, I can't remember whether I think they were three seventy-second uh and uh, as a matter of fact, I was in the force uh four seventy-seven bomber group in Kentucky, and uh there would be, there would be twenty-five planes. There, there was a B-twenty-five squadron that uh never went anywhere uh but the fellas used to fly up to New York and uh part of their training, and uh something would go wrong with the engines, so they'd have to stay over and, and party. So that uh, I don't just know of any significant change in terms of the social dynamics of Harlem uh, uh during the war. Uh, a lot of us, of course, were drafted and, and uh, but I was working in the police department and we did have gang, still had these juvenile gang fights. As a matter of fact, that was my special assignment at the time, but uh again, they were using zip guns, as they called them
in those days, little home-made uh guns on a wooden frame with the, the stem of a lamp stem uh taped to it, you know, and use a twenty-two bullet. But uh, that was, those were isolated situations. There used to be dances given up uh a hundred and forty-fifth street and uh Edgecomb Avenue at the park. And you had the big bands that used to come up there, and Benny Goodman, Tommy Dorsey, and so forth, and sometimes as, as an outgrowth of those large gatherings of young people, there might be some altercation, but nothing like what we see today.
Q: OK. So you, you joined the police force in ...
1942.
Q: In 1942.
Yeah.
Q: Uhm, uh how was, as, as a policeman, and your, and your, your, your, you know, area
being Harlem, how did, how did you uhm, you know, what was your relationship with the community. Was different, was it, was it, you know, you were from there, too. How did that work?
Well, actually uh, in 1942, there were about nineteen thousand police officers in New York City and only a hundred and twenty-five black. And the blacks were assigned in three precincts. A hundred and twenty-third Street, between Seventh and Eighth Avenue, a hundred and thirty-fifth Street between Seventh and Eighth Avenue, and Brookline and Bedford stuyvesant in the seventy-ninth precinct. And so it'd be seventy-ninth precinct, twenty-eighth precinct on a hundred and twenty-third and thirty-second precinct. Blacks went no where else in 1942. They had one black on horseback, maybe one or two on motorcycle, none in some of the real special assignments. The highest ranking black we had at the time was the acting lieutenant, uh I think we had two acting lieutenants. Uh, which meant they
had not passed the lieutenants examination. And uhm, at that time uh, an examination was given in 1941, and in 1942 the largest number of blacks in the history of New York City were appointed because they came out at the top of the list. There were about twentyfive thousand who took the exam, and out of the first couple hundred, uh twenty, there were twenty-five blacks, and uh the, the first infusion into the New York City Police Department of blacks in, and, and not large numbers, they used to come in one or two at a time. And this group, a lot of this members of this group were college trained. One was a dentist, as a matter of fact. And it was from this group uh, uh for young men who were allow, and come out of the community uh they move very rapidly into a special assignments like in the juvenile bureau, and uh because they'd grown up in the communities, a lot of them move uh up into the high ranks uh later on. Uhm ...
Q: So tell me, uh, I'm going to jump forward to, to uhm say nineteen, to the fifties. And
uhm, and I'm wondering when do you first become aware in the Harlem community that there's this new entity, this new organization called the Nation of Islam and uhm how do find out, how do you become aware of them?
Actually I, I uh first became aware of them in the, in the fifty, in about 1951.
Q: Tell 'em what we're talking about, too, OK?
About uh the Nation, ya, the Muslims.
Q: Let's start again ...
Well, I don't, yeah I first became aware of the, of the Muslims I guess in about 1950 I was a sergeant, and I used to stop on the corner on a hundred twenty-fifth Street and uh Seventh Avenue, there was a Show-T Cigar Store there, right across from the Hotel i'eresa, and there was always somebody
on the soap box there, and uh, one of the
main speakers was a brother
Q: So uhm, uh, uh in fifty-four you become deputy, a deputy commissioner.
A deputy police commission in February of fifty-four, yeah.
Q: Uhm, and how, how uhm, how rapidly did they start growing as an organization? When do you notice that they're really growing somewhat as an organization in Harlem?
Well I, I would say they st'-, uh start from that first exposure I had, and then I began to understand about the affiliation of the Muslims and, and the origin of it in, in Chicago, and I'd say they began, 'gan to grow from the, uh the time I first start hearing Malcolm X uh speak on a hundred and twenty-fifth Street. By the time uh 1954 and fifty-five came around, they were significant for uh body uh in Harlem area, and uh some of the incidents that uh occurred during that time that I, not that I was personally involved in, but that I knew
about, uh indicate
Q: OK. We're going to stop for a second we just rolled out, we'll pick it up there.
jz
Yeah, I got thrown down the steps of that place. I think I told you that. Where he got assassinated.
Q: On the on Audubon?
Audubon, yeah.
Q: [unintel, 2 seconds]
Oh-ho! Oh, I was- at, for for he ....
Ah, this is sound roll 53. Blackside's production of Malcolm X. Show one eight hundred. Continuation of uh interview with Mr. Mangum. On camera roll one oh eight.
... was trying to cr- who had had
some, too much beer. Tried to crash the
dance. And so he called me out
they, and they threw me right down the stairs.
Q: Down the stairs.
Yup. And, I went head over heels down the stairs. Then they came running on down. And I cou- caught one as he came by. And just as he- as I caught him, a patrolman friend, buddy of mine, came in the front door and I yelled to him, Hold this guy, Claude! And he grabbed this guy, the one I had cauheld, had caught. And then I started after the other one.
Q: Gettin' up off the floor and run after the other one.
Yeah. Up Broadw- up Broadway. Well, I was eh I was only in my twenties then, heh-heh-heh! And uh, I started running. I was in track matches all my life for, until I was about twenty-five years old and I was in good shape. I was chasin' this guy all up Broadway, y'know. Couldn't make any ground, couldn't catch him and ... he went
down into the subway around hundred and
sixtieth somewhere up there, and, then he
collapsed. And he went in the subway. And I
collapsed on top of him. I found out later
that the reason he collapsed--number one,
he'd been drinkin' beer. Never had been, was
not a drinkin' kid. Number two, he's was a
high school quarter mile champion!
Q: Must've [unintel) a long distance, haha.
If he hadn't been drinking I never would have caught him. Yeah. So that was the same place as Malcolm was killed. Yeah. That's my Audubon Ballroom story. Heh-heh.
Q: You guys ready?
Yeah, mm-hm. We're rolling.
Q: What I want to do is I want to pick up at um and--
Sound and speed.
Q: Can we have a bit of a description of ah ah Malcolm's, early Malcolm on the corner. Ah y'know, ah, speaking. As far as the crowds were and how attractive he was as a speaker.
Well, when I first heard him, eh, I sort of passed, pass up, heard Malcolm, I sort of passed it up. Eh, just another speaker on, on the ladder. And uh, a rather small crowd 'cause most people who stopped were stopping to hear the established corner speaker. There was another man there who was an expert in black history. I can never remember his name but it began with a Doctor something or other. So ah, not too many people listening to him. To eh, Malcolm at that time. But something about his voice caught my attention and I tarried for a little while. And uh, he seemed so angry. That was another--guess maybe my police involvement, too, made me stop, 'cause I didn't know who he was. And ah, after listening to him a little while, I found that uh, he didn't express himself very well, but somehow or other his voice made you stop and
listen to him a minute and I found uh that on subsequent occasions, going by that corner, the crowds got bigger and bigger to the point sometimes you couldn't even pass ah, if you were a pedestrian walking, in- or you couldn't even get into the cigar store if you wanted to buy cigarettes. So I was ah impressed with him later on when I began to hear some of the content of what he was saying, although his grammar and his ah way of express himself wouldn't exactly get him an A in English, you know. But his points were very clear. And ah, even though I didn't agree with some of the things he said, I realized he was an angry man and ah had some things on his mind which he probably had gotten ah, not only from his past life ah eh growing up, but also in prison. I did have the experience of about three months of being a prison guard myself. On Reiker's Island before I became a police officer. So I learned a little bit about eh what prisons were like and eh in during that three month period. And, I think that was part of- it reflected in the way Malcolm approached his early speaking on the corners.
Q: Now, when did you um realize or recognize that the organization that he that he represented was getting larger and becoming a force in Harlem?
Well, I I I guess I realized it ah from then on because ah it th- it was in the newspapers all the time, and then being at the poli--
Q: Start, start again. Let me know what we're talking about. [unintel 1 seconds]
Yeah. Eh, I guess I realized that the organization was growing, the Muslim organiz- organization was growing from the po- moment I started hearing Malcolm speak regularly on that corner. Because I began to pay attention again because of my job. Ah, in the police department. Pay attention to eh everything that went on in Harlem. I used to ah run all the play streets in Harlem. Something like fifty, sixty play streets in Harlem. So that I was in and out of every street in Harlem at one time or another and I
s- began to hear about the Muslims. I began
to hear about them in prison bee- through
contacts I had and people I knew and in the
correction department. And eh, then I began
to hear of about a growing concentration of
Muslims in and around a hundred and sixteenth
street and that area. Ah, I guess probably
the first realization them- that I had of how
strong they were in Harlem was probably
around just about the time I became a deputy
police commissioner. And even before then.
s- before- ah that would be in nineteen
fifty-four.
Q: Urn, was there- the there was an incident in Harlem ah that, when this ah Muslim ah member, Hinton Johnson ah, got in a- gotten into a- got into a fight with the police. Ah, do you remember that incident? And, were you- you were present ah ... ?
I wasn't present at the incident, no, uh but I was involved with it ah, eh, after it occurred. Ah, I remember it, yes.
Q: Tell me about the Hinton Johnson ....
Yeah well, the only thing that I
knew at the time was that that
us. Along with uh ... Jimmy, ah, a Walter Arm)
who was a deputy police commissione5 ah
decided that he would come because his
assignment was community relations and um he
felt he should be ah present. And there was
no way obviously to exclude him. Ah, and no
reason to at that point.
worked through two two riots. This was
just ....
Q: Sorry. [miscellaneous muttering, seconds]
Mark. Three. Ugh, Brian, close that door. Okay. Eight to four.
Okay. Mark. Four.
Q: Okay, ah, talk talk to me about the demonstration- you were about to describe the demonstration that was going on outside. What was it like?
Oh, significant was that eh despite
the fact that I said I been in at least two
riot situations,
is a very long block. And they had black
males all dressed in black, immaculate. Ah,
standing at parade rest and interspersed or
intermingled between the males were females
dressed completely in white. And they were
all standing at parade rest, and making no
sound. Covering the whole length of the
block. Across the street from the precinct.
And this was what was intimidating really,
the white police officers who were inside!
Because they weren't saying anything. They
they- weren't making- they weren't talking to
each other. They were just standing at
parade rest. I'd never seen anything like it
in my whole time in ah in Harlem or in the
police department.
back and about this time we drove up. And we
all went into the ah station house, the
twenty-eighth precinct, and standing in front
of the desk. And Malcolm said to him, you're
just wasting your time trying to do that.
Said, I, when I want them to go, they will
go. So then when Jimmy Hicks and I agreed to
go with ah Malcolm over to the Amsterdam News
and course Walter Arm was going to go along,
too, as the deputy commissioner. Ah, Malcolm
said I'll get rid- I-I'll send them away. He
went out to the front of the station on the
first step and just waved his hand. And the
people walked away towards Seidenem[?]
Q: Now what do you - what do you think he meant when he said nobody--
You you lost the mike back there, sorry.
Q: Mike? Sorry.
No problem
Q: It fell?
Yes. Or, I guess it fell. Looked like it fell over.
Q: I didn't just go out?
No, it's the one outside ... It's the one outside and it went off like at the beginning of this .... ! know. Back on now! Yeah, 'cause he just picked it up.
This light in this back yard isn't going to help you any at all.
Hmm?
This light in the back yard won't help you any. There's a light back there. Or, a floodlight, yeah.
Q: We'll wait on it, that's all right.
The wind took it down. Freddy's on headphones so he hears, you know, he picked it up.
Q: It's a good story.
Yeah, that's a great story. Mm-hm. Yeah. Oh.
Yeah, yeah. That, that uh frankly, that's the thing I remember the most of this whole ... business. You know, just, because I'd never seen before eh that much discipline. And they were so immaculately dressed, you know. Very impressive.
Q: Are you ready? Ready, Freddy? Ready?
Ah this is camera roll 109. And we're speaking. Marking. Five.
Q: Okay, tell me, tell me, take me to that moment Malcolm comes out to dismiss his ....
It was probably the most significant
moment in my own acquaintanceship in ah, with
Malcolm. Ah, seeing those people lined up
like they were ah, quietly and at parade
rest, as I said, with no conversation and
immaculately dressed, male and female. And
for Malcolm to come out and just wave his
hand and they filed away without talking or
anything else and moved over ah ea- uh west
rather, to the Seidenem
any power for anything.
Q: Now, what um, what in the, within the in the negotiation between Malcolm and ah you guys, what broke it? How did, how did it get resolved? In a sense. Talk to me about what was said and how it got resolved.
Well, frankly, eh, heh, your asking me to remember something that's thirty-some years ago and I I'm afraid I cannot repeat verbatim what we talked about. But he voiced ah skepticism, which was natural in those days, about what would be the result of the
investigation.
Q: Um. How did um Malcolm and the Nation of Islam, how were they um ah received or viewed
after this incident in Harlem? s- since ah ....
Well,
began to realize they had a significant force in the city to deal with.
Q: Um, did you um, ah, did you follow
Malcolm? I mean, ah, I know that you left
the police department right af- soon after
that case. Did you stay in touch with what
was going on with the Nation of Islam or
Malcolm after that? Do- was something
Well, just just reading. Ah, I had
no no personal contact with ah the Nation of
Islam. But I did keep close contact by
reading. I mean, I knew how it was
flourishing nationwide and I knew how their
the problems were arising within the
organization and I was aware of when Malcolm
pulled away from ah th- ah ah the
organization and when he went to to Mecca and
and the change that came into him. And very
frankly,
people are now recognizing that he probably
was one of our greatest leaders and had the
potential. And how- I've said to so many
people ah, that I can't name in this country
right now the kind of people that had a the
significant strength and influence that
Martin Luther King had and Malcolm had.
Q: Tell me, um, ah, where were you when Malcolm was assassinated.
I really don't know, tell you the truth. What year- I don't even remember the year now. Si--
Q: That was nineteen sixty-five.
Nineteen sixty-five. I guess I was in ah in the hospital department at that time. I went in the hospital department in fifty .... either that or I was regional
director of the Office of Economic Opportunity for the whole northeast United States. Worked for Sergeant Shriver at the time.
Q: Um, let's cut for a second. BEEP Did you see Malcolm again--
Speeding. I can tell. Marker! Six.
Q: So, how how does the state, especially the state government and and police begin to respond to the Nation after this Hinton Johnson incident?
Well, I would say that the police
department definitely got, was concerned
because ah that little demonstration that I
described a few moments ago, in front of the
station house, ah, really kind of put the
police department on a on its ah, on its ear
because they had never seen anything like
that. Ah, and course this became- also got
into the political arena, too. The ah,
they had to reckon with the Muslims because
they are also potential voters, too. I would
say that from that incident that, ah,
involving Hinton Johnson, there became a
significant awareness on the part of the
entire city government, the mayor right on
down, and including every city department, of
the Muslim movement.
Q: Okay. And and and the their whole thing was then to find out as much as they it was eh important to find out about them. To find out what they were doing, what they were about.
Matter of fact, eh in order to do
that, they established special units ah, they
tried to infiltrate the Muslims and I assume
that they did. Ah, information I have which
I can't prove, of course, because I was not
involved. But I
people to get information and they used every
means they could to acquire as much
information as they could about the Muslim
movement.
Q: Okay. Cut.
... question. Now you talking about at that time or are you--
We're rolling. And, mark. Seven.
Q: How are people responding to the movement.
Well, I I think that ah ... there was
a lot of curiosity for one thing. I think
there was a tendency on the part of a lot of
ah people in the Harlem community--and I'm
only speaking of Harlem 'cause I lived there
and I I knew the community pretty well--
more and more information came out in the newspapers and as more and more indications out on the street of Muslim activity, giving out the leaflets and so forth, that ah, the rest of Harlem became believers that here was a significant movement going on in the community. And eh I used to even hear of people who I knew--
Oh, cut. My battery just went.
Rolling. Mark. Eight.
Q: Tell me how the Harlem communities responded to the Nation. Especially after the Hinton Johnson incident.
of these movements that Harlem was noted for
and that would die out. But eh, many of my
own friends became believers after that, that
this was a movement here to stay, and one of
some significance.
Q: That's good.
All right. This could be it.