MARK IT.

TAKE ONE.

ONE SECOND.

Q: So give me, give me a real kind of descriptive ah vision of Boston in those days when you were about seventeen-years-old?

used to call it Little Dixie‚ they had the Savoy up near ah, up near the bridge there BA 8641 and down below the ah-eh, the Savoy downstairs was the Big M. They used to have a lot name groups.come in like Jimmy Smith, ah, I can't remen-call some of the other names that were down there. And then the High Hat was on the corner of Mass and Columbus and down on Columbus Avenue there was another little club there called the BA 8674 Four-Eleven Lounge ah, where I met Roy Elgis, the famous trumpet player, Roy Elgis, I met him in there one night. And he happened to be downtown Boston playing at the ah, Carrol Theatre, ah with Jean Cooper-and Anita O'Day. Anita O'Day was the singer with Jean Coopers band in those day. Then ah, you brings back memories to me about the old Pioneer Club that was just across the street almost from where Estel1e‚Äôs Restaurant is on Tremont street. That was a famous after-hours spot BA 8718 for all musicians ah, that came into the area, they used to go down there to eat and have jam sessions, the place stayed open all night. And it was live and then also there

were Slades .. was famous for their barbecued chicken and there ahm Shag Taylor's Drugstore BA 8744 on the corner that stayed open all night for various reasons I won't, won't mention. So you, you take me back to those days.]]8757

Q: Remember, now talk to me about ah, and without referring to me taking you back just describe ah, the ah ... the Boston Black Community. Ah, there's Humboldt Avenue, Sugar Hill, it comes down to Mass Ave. Give me ah, a feeling and a flavor for that community.

or less well-to-do blacks.] Ah, I remember [the famous Doctor Meyers who used to be right BA 8832 down in there Humboldt Avenue and Lemuel Street and um Doctor Ben who had a place up on up on Humboldt Avenue and then there as the famous Townsend Street Drugstore, St. Marks Church that used to be on Townsend Street,] I believe the church is still there.]8861 Ah, Beau Bummell, he's located on the corner on Munroe and Humboldt now but in the days of Beau Brummel was on the corner of Townsend BA 8872 Street when he started off and he used to do a lot of famous musicians hair...that when he came into town. Um.

Q: No um, um, you're giving me place give me a sense of the people too.

TAKE TWO.

Q: Now you're seventeen. This is the Boston and your seven-and-and your experience, you're seeing this and you remember for me and describe the street scene. Um, what's going on. How happening are the clubs, what is Saturday night in Boston like?

where all the happenings were, right on Mass on Avenue] right where Wally's is located BA 8985 today.] Ah, 8985 across the street where the Big M was, I think there's a store up there right now and they call where they High Hat is, the Harriet Tubman House. Now we can go back downtown, ah, not all the way downtown, down beyond ah West Newton Street, there was the club called the Four Eleven Lounge, ah, there wasn't too much happening there but a lot of musicians used to frequent there on Saturday nights to eat and ah, then sometimes they had BA 9025 a band playing and I remember the old fat man, ah Robertson Oxtree used to play in there, that's where I met the late Roy Eldridge. He and Anita O'Day, I met them in there. Ah, going back up towards Slades, then we had the old Pioneer Club, there was Estelle's and there was Shagg’s um, drugstore and there was a little restaurant right next to the drugstore called Jimmy Christmas and between these places, this is where all the BA 9069 blacks from up in Roxbury used to come and frequent and hang out to the wee hours of the morning on Sunday mornings, especially at the

Pioneer Club, you can go up there and after three o'clock they serve dinner and the BA 9087 musicians would have a jam session, jam sessions lasted eight, nine o'clock Sunday morning. That's what they called having a good time. Now this also brings to mind that um, [[9102 there was a gambling place, I don't think I should mention the name of where it was on Hammond Street. Very famous and ah, people wanted to gamble. They could go in there and gamble and they had some of the BA 9122 professional prostitutes that used to work out of this gambling house and ah, they had rooms upstairs that they used to rent so all the happenings was right down between Hammond Street, Mass Avenue and West Newton Street.]]9141

Q: Now tell me about when you first meet Malcolm. Describe him to me, ah, give me ah, your best description of-of how you met and under what circumstances, what he was like, and ah...

[not quite seventeen and I called myself a BA 9178 little hustler up in Roxbury in those days and ah. I used to go in the pool room all the time up on Humboldt Avenue. And this particular day, you know, Malcolm X had come into his Boston and he had on his zoot suit with the wide-brimmed hat with the long three-quarter-length coat with the chain that went down to your anhles,] I don't know, the last time I recall Cab/Eallaway used that outfit for his stage uniform and Malcolm X was the first person that landed in Boston with this outfit and ah, [the girls all BA 9229 marveled at him because he was different but he was sharp. And I met him up in the pool room, shootin' pool. That's how I first got acquainted with him, what happened is I was shootin' pool against him and another fella and I had a hundred and twenty-five Hamilton wristwatch and the chain broke and the watch dropped on the table and somebody scooped it up. When I went to look for my watch it was gone and Malcolm X was standing next to me BA 9269 and I accused him. He and I almost got into it. That's how we became friends but he]

wasn't the one that the watch, later I found BA 9279 out it was somebody else that took it. Now, that's how I got acquainted with him.]]9285 And he and I started to become very good friends at that. Ah, we both liked pool and I think I sort of_intrigued him because as a musician, a young musician in those days, I was affiliated with the Union, ab, and it was my job to escort the business agent into all the BA 9314 clubs in Boston while all the name people in show business, they had to pay what we call traveling dues. And it was our job to go get it. And I used to be chauffeur for the secretary, so Malcolm X used to come along with me as my buddy, so therefore, I got him into all these different clubs, ah and he met anybody that was in town at the time. That's BA 9348 how he got into to the people in the show business. That's how he and I became, started becoming good friends.

Q: So you were talking about, you're talking about Malcolm in a zoot suit, now describe him to me, one time you talked, you described him to me, you laid out the whole image in

suit, hair being conked, you know and just how the girls kind of responded.

Q: Describe, describe, give me-give me ah, what, if I saw Malcolm walking down the street. What is he gonna look like. What is, give me this picture of this guy.

CAMERA JUST ROLLED OUT OF FILM

Q: Let's just call him Malcolm at this stage, 'cause he's not Malcolm X yet.

Q: Yes, so.

Q: ... (unintel) Malcolm at the (unintel)

he didn't receive the X till he came out of prison.

Q: That's fine.

Q: No, you're doing fine.

Q: ... time to start ...

F: You have very vivid descriptions, it's really ah...I can see that suit.

F: I think someone does ...

Q: Real sharp (Unintel)

F: Uhm um.

Q: This is what I'm asking you to do when you describe him, give me the whoie picture.

Q: Picture the hair, the clothes, the zoot suit, the whole thing, give me the picture.

Q: OK. Now, first, give me the-this description of Malcolm in a zoot suit and the impression he made on people, saw zoot suit, his red hair, you know, it's like.

Q: Malcolm was the first one.

Q: Start again and let me know that Malcolm was, we're talking about Malcolm, Malcolm was the first one who wore.

Humboldt Avenue with this particular suit on, he'd look like a man from Mars. The way he BB 0098 astonished all the girls and the fellows too. Ah, and then again, [[0106 the girls were marveled more over him because of his hair being red from conking it. They had never seen a black man with red hair, even though his skin was light, he was still considered a black man. Well, for him to walk down the street with this red hair, ah, that was really fascinating to all the young girls. Ah, he 0140 was very sharp and neat and clean. He, in fact, they used to call him Dapper Dan of the hill.]0150

Q: OK. Um. Now. when you first meet Malcolm, ah, describe that meeting, how you first meet. And describe the Malcolm that you meet at fourteen-years-old.

Q: ...I heard a lot about Malcolm.

Lionel Hampton and fellows from Duke BB 0295 Ellington, Jimmy Lundsford’s band, we go back to the days of Jimmy Lundsford. Um, I said Lionel Hampton.

Q: That's good enough.

Q: No you, you at one point said that ah Malcolm, even back then could talk and although he had this kind of per-you know physical kind of image that was attractive, he was also talkative and he could, he-he, attracted. Talk to me about Malcolm X then as ah as a young kid. How was his rap...?

Q: I'm gonna start you all over again. ’cause we, we got mixed up there. Start again, Malcolm could talk.

Q: OK. Uh now, was there another part, there seemed to be another piece this package, you guys hang out at the clubs and just talk about Malcolm and ah, you know going down to the Roseland and clubs like this and he was into dancing, he was into, he could, he could ... he was quite a sight on the floor. Ah, talk about that.

Q: OK. Start again ... start again ... It's like um, it's like um, give me Malcolm what's that he's remember to keep Malcolm still.

Q: Instead he, saying he, say Malcolm for me.

Q: Let's start again. Talk to me about Malcolm and dancing, as ah, as a dancer then.

lookin' like a boxer more or 1ess,nobody questioned his age. So, that's how he got in BB 0522 and out of these clubs and ahm, un-being under age.]]0528 Ah dancing, ah, I've taken him down to the ahm, oh goodness, the state ballroom right here that used to be on Mass Avenue, I've taken him to the Taunton ballroom in Taunton, they used to have dances there every Friday night and, in fact, we go back to the days and I can remember ah—ah, the old Father Hynes and Fats Naveau(?) and Billy Ekstine, Malcolm X met all those people 0566 through me, because I had to collect the Union dues with the Union from these people.

Q: Um.

Q: Let's cut for a second.

Q: Don't-dont' be/eelf-conscious about it. You knew that's alright. What I do, what I would like you to do is say Malcolm instead of he....

Q: Say Malcolm X and we have, we have to just, people still know that you're talking about Malcolm

Q: ..but saying he is really. Um.

Q: OK. Now paint a picture, of, ah, Malcolm on the floor dancin' what was he like? Describe him for me so that we can we can all see it too.

Q: OK. So, so, you and Mike and Malcolm are ... are hanging out and ahm, you're you're

going to a lot of the clubs, talk ah, at one point you-you told me a story once about ah, how you and he would, would, in-in your way you kind of protect the women who were in the clubs, that you had this way about you.

Q: Gimme... give me a sense of that?

reach back like this for his gun and when he did, Malcolm X put his hand in there and I BB 0818 was standing there right beside him and Malcolm said to him, "Hey," he said, "they made more than one when they made 'em." Then the cop got nervous and then Malcolm said to him, "If that was your mother or your sister, you wouldn't man-handle her like that," he says, "Leave her be." Then the cop got nervous 'cause he figured we both had guns then he stepped outside, in those days they didn't have the old walkie-talkies, he stepped outside to go down to the call box to 0859 call the police and when he did, we picked the woman up and put her in the cab right outside and give the cab driver five dollars and told him to take her home and we got in my car and we left before the police got there because if they had gotten there we'd a-all been in-in trouble. Now that's a good example of what happened on Saturday nights down there. And there was BB 0887 another incident that you bring to mind, ah, one Saturday night when we were at the Savoy, ah, Malcolm was sittin' at the table with ah,

with this girl, Bea, and her sister, Joyce BB 0907 and myself ah, just Malcolm and I and Bea and Joyce, and, and Bea was in love with Malcolm and she had a puff, and Malcolm had his thirty-two under the table or some kind of way in his pocket, when the cops came in. And when he did he passed it to Bea and Bea put the gun in her puff. So naturally, being that she was a white girl, the cops weren't gonna bother her but they made Malcolm stand up and pat him down and when they did, he was 0952 clean and they, they didn't say anything. But Bea, this'll show you how crazy she was, she had the gun out under the table, she said if they was gettin' ready to take him away, they would shoot, gonna shoot the cop. Ha- ha-ha. You imagine that? That's how close we came. We used to have many close calls BB 0977 like that I'll tell you. Saturday night specials.]]0984

Q: So did ... did you and Malcolm, did you, did Malcolm have kind of a rep, in ah, in ah- in-in Roxbury in Boston and ah, around town as ah, did he have kind of a reputation?

Q: Wait a second ... we just roll out ... we just rolled ... we'll pick this up again ... ...so we'll start.

Q: Ah about bringing marihuana up and things like that.

Q: Um, you said you (unintel)

Q: (Unintel)

Q: Unintel

Q: Whenever you shift, he shifts with you.

MARK.

Q: OK. Ah, talk to me about Malcolm's reputation as ahm, as ... as a hustler.

with marihuana sewed into the lining of that big, heavy overcoat that he used to wear. BB 1099 And I've seen him take a needle and break the lining open and take the stuff out. Ah, sometimes he had as much as a quarter to a half a pound of it and then he would take and package it up himself, roll it up into joints and sell them for a dollar a piece and that's where he got known on Humboldt Avenue as the hustler because all the young ki-youngsters that were smoking marihuana, they used to come to him to get it. He was more or less 1138 their supplier and he did it so smooth and so cool that the law couldn't catch up with him. Most of the time he never carried it on him. Ah, what he would do, sometimes he would have it hidden in different places and you would pay him and he'd tell you where to go get it BB 1164 and you'd go pick it up so all he kept in his pocket was money.]]BB 1169

Q: OK. And so on the street, what kind of reputation did he have?

Q: OK. Um. Now you-you said that there was something about him, he-he was the law was always after him but he seemed to always be able to stay, just ahead of ‚ 'em. Talk about, talk about that with, you know, how was he able to....

Q: Talk about Malcolm.

he carried a gun. So this is how his BB 1347 reputation went with him in the underworld in Boston.]]1352

Q: Now. Malcolm, Malcolm had a ah, you said he hung out with this woman, Bea and she was a white woman. What did that mean for him to have a white woman, and to have ah, this woman as his, people to see on this street, that was his, his lady in a sense?

Q: To Malcolm.

Q: So how did, how did you and he begin to ah, ahm, move into more ah, riskier kinds of hustles and things like that, how, where, how did you and he break down this hustle, how'do you get into it, the riskier kind of behavior?

rob people but someone, one of the girls made BB 1507 that suggestion. So, we said, "Yes, we'll do it." And there was the old house of ah, remember Proctor and Gamble soap, we went into Mr. Gamble's house and ah, a couple of nights later there was, there at the home out in Belmont from Ester Brook and Eaton Fountain pen, we went into Mr. Eaton's house. Ah, because this girl knew that these people were down in Florida at that time of the year. There was nobody home, so we broke into the house and we'd get some of their 1554 valuables and ah, Malcolm would take most of the stuff and pawn it and get money for his gambling habit. Ah, after two weeks of doing this, that's when the case broke when he made the mistake of going to the pawn shop to retrieve a watch with over a thousand dollars that came out of one of the houses and, and it was already listed from the police department, as, as a stolen article. So when BB 1589 he went back to retrieve it, that's when he was arrested by three policemen.]]1594 Detectives, I should say.

Q: OK. Now, I'm gonna shift back for a second because there is something that you and Malcolm both do just before that. You both get out of the draft. War breaks out, there's a draft and you both decide you're not going...How does that happen and for what reasons do you not go into the draft?

Malcolm, the only way I can say he stayed out BB 1694 was more or less because of his age.

Q: OK. Malcolm, Malcolm avoided the draft. He-he was drafted and he, he ah, he went, in New York, and he ah..

Q: Yeah.

Q: And ahm, he went down for a check up and got classified, what four F.

Q: No.

Q: No, 'cause he said he wanted to kill white people.

Q: No, it's because he said he wanted to kill white people.

Q: This is what he said, it's about, in his file.

Q: That was the um.

Q: Now do, do you remember going down and picking up Malcolm when he was in ah, in New York?

Q: Talk about that ah, and ah, what ah, what had happened and ah and ah describe what he, what he was doing with West Indian Archie and, and all that was going on at that time.

to Archie, saying that they didn't get their BB 1858 money and Archie reported it back to the syndicate and then there was a contract put out on him. And he was staying at Sammy McKnight's house and Sammy called me up and said, "Jarvis, you better come and get your boy out of town," he says, "Ah, they got a contract on him." And he says, "You better come right away." so that's when I drove down to New York and when I got to Sammy's house, Sammy didn't know where he was, Sammy says, "Listen the LaMarcharie (?) is right down on the corner. I think it was on the 1903 corner of Edgecomb, and St. Nicholas Avenue ah, he said ah, "Stick around down there where you might see him." And sure enough I went down there and he popped up. And got in the car, he didn't even take the time to go get his clothes, he was that shaky, he was just movin' from one place to other to keep out of the way in case somebody was lookin' for him. So he got in the car and said, BB 1935 "Jarvis, just the highway." And Gone.] He left his clothes and everything at ah, ah at McKnight's house.]1946

Q: So, when you get back this is when ah, not long after you, ah, you guys get um.

Q: OK. So we've told that, we-we understand that you-that the stealing that Malcolm gets caught. Ahm ah, describe for me ahm, ah your-your convic-you're arrested and you go to trial. Describe for me this trial.

WE'RE GONNA ROLL OUT IN A SECOND.

YEAH

TEN MINUTES

MOVING ONTO SOUND ROLL 36 ON CAMERA ROLL 72. THIS IS THE MALCOLM X PROJECT ON BLACKSIDE. ONE K REFERENCE TONE RECORDED AT MINUS 8DB RUNNING SPEED SEVEN AND A HALF IPS

SOUND SPEED MARK

TAKE SIX

Q: Talk to me about coming back from Newton at that time and (unintel) and ah explain to me what ah what impressed you about Malcolm?

case of scotch, we took some jewelry and she, BB 2583 bed linen and sheets which was hard to get in the days of the war goin' on, linen. Achem,(cough) excuse me. And we loaded the car up, ah, had all the backseat was loaded. So there was Malcolm, myself and I think it was just one of the girls that was in the car and we were headin' back, it was late at night, oh around eleven o'clock I'd say to -to Newton and you know and out there all the wealthy people live and they don't usually see no blacks cruisin' around at that time of the night, if BB 2629 they do the cops will stop you and check you out. And this particular night, to show you how fast Malcolm thinks, we were cruisin’ down toward the ah, West Roxbury highway, on the edge of Newton, and the police car saw us and they were headin' for us so instead I stopped and Malcolm says back up and stop the car and get out and ask which way is it back to Roxbury because they were about to stop and check and if they had they would've caught us dead to right with all this stolen BB 2672 merchandise in the back of the car. So I stopped and asked the cop I said, "Sir can

you tell us how to get into Roxbury?" He says, "Well, where are you coming from?" And BB 2687 I told him, well we just came in from New York, we were headin' into Roxbury, well we've got lost. We came off in Dedham and we got lost." So, the cop says, "Well, you go this way and you go this way and you go down to take a right you right into Roxbury." So that's what saved us, was Malcolm's quick wit of thinking to approach the cop before he 2715 approached us. That's an example of the way he thought.]]2722

Q: Ahm, talk to me about, now, you-you ahm, you get busted and ah and ah you go to trial um, talk to me about the trial and ah paint a scene and give me ah a picture of that scene in the courtroom, what happened?

[father, my aunt, Malcolm's sister Ella and I think his sister Hilda was there. Now at ... BB 2792 they had a cage in the Middlesex County Courtroom there's ... they always brought the so-called prisoners out and locked in this cage. hnd they had bars about this far wide where you get arm through about up to certain points. And one of the detectives because the girls were white in the case, they were all prejudiced. He comes out and says well if we had you niggers down South he said we'd lynch you and when he said that the blood 2827 rose to my head and Malcolm's head and both of us reached through that bar tryin’ to grab the detective and he just got out the way because if we had we didn't care, we were already goin-, locked up and gonna go to jail anyway, wo we woulda try to do him in right then and there. But uh ... it so happens he got out of our way. Now when we get into the courtroom, the judge turns around and sentenced the three girls to something like a year probation. Then they got the girls out BB 2867 of the courtroom. Then when it come time to sentence us he gave us each eight to ten

years in the State Prison which means you BB 2880 have to serve sixty months which is five years before you're eligible for parole. That was pretty rough for a first offender.2893]] A first offender normally never gets over two-and-a-half to three years and we were first offenders but because they were prejudiced they sentenced us to eight to ten. 2908[[ Then they had the unintimidated gall to ask the girls before they took ’em outta there to press charges against us for rape. The girls wouldn't do it because they knew better, 2927 right away when they sentenced us, uh I went outta my mind. I reached up and grabbed the bars of the cage and I shook ’em, I almost shook ’em right up off the floor, and I hollered at the judge. I says to him, "You might as well kill me as to give me ten years in jail"] I thought that meant when they call these sentences off, which were supposed to be concurrently, that they meant 10 for this and 10 for that, and 10 for that. when you add it up you got 100 years. That's more BB 2964 or less what I thought. But not knowing it was a concurrent thing. So anyway, uh [when I

yelled, I started some commotion and the BB 2980 judge says, "clear the courtroom." Because all the blacks started gettin' a little nervous with some of the whites in the courtroom, and that same detective that had made that remark to Malcolm and I, went up and grabbed his sister Ella by the arm to usher her out, and she was a big healthy strappin' woman and she just broke, shhh, and she with one fling and he bounced straight off the wall, and when he did then the judge 3018 says, "Call out the riot squad." They called the riot squad out and they cleared the courtroom. They were so nervous they didn't dare take us out through the front door.]]3031 They got a door behind the judge's desk, which is ... which goes down to a tunnel, the judge's private entrance. They took us out through the judge's tunnel over back in BB 3047 through the Middlesex County Jail.

Q: So how were you ... so you're then taken to Charlestown Prison.

Q: What? You got...

Q: Starting again. Tell me. What, what did the front page...

Q: So, ah. Describe for me Charles, what is, what is Charlestown like? The prison that you were sent to?

Q: OK, start again ... Just tell me, tell me about Charlestown.

Q: But you, you weren't on death row.

Q: Um, let, let's just pass on that one...

Q: ...film, but tell me about, um, so you leave...you're in Charlestown for ... for how long ... almost a year, right?

Q: A year and a half. And then you were transferred to...

Q: To Norfolk.

Q: So, ahm, give me an idea of, of, of Norfolk and uh what happens when you, when you go there.

Q: Now, you, both you and Malcolm were both in this prison, so bring Malcolm into the story...

Q: Now. OK. then, picking up where you and Malcolm are together in Norfolk then, OK?

Q: ....I see.

Q: I have to kind of condense some of this.

VOICE: Beg pardon?

Q: I have to condense some of this story. Ya. So I'm gonna ask ou to pick me up later in the, in the chronology. OK. Pick me up when Malcolm comes to Norfolk. Start me off by telling me that, "I'd been in Norfolk a year, and Malcolm is brough to Norfolk," and, and then describe Norfolk prison to me.

(MISC) Ready? This is four? Screening. Three? Take Seven.

Q: OK. Um when Malcolm does get to Norfolk, and then describe the prison to me...

Q: Give me Malcolm's name.

Q: Can I stop you for a second?

Q: See, I'm not, I don't think I'm going to be able to use the Concord reference, because...

Q: 'Cause then, OK. So. Just start me. “When Malcolm comes to Norfolk, I'd been there a year." Start me that way, OK?

Q: Start again.

Q: Yes.

Q: We just rolled out ... we just rolled out.

Q: We just rolled out ...

I'm sorry OK.

MARK

TAKE EIGHT

Q: OK, des-describe Malcolm coming to Norfolk before he gets back ...

it had uh, electric wires on the top. God knows how many thousands of volts of electricity goin' through em’ at night. Then BB 3599 you had uh a wire fence that was something like 10 feet between the wall. They call that death zone. Any time a man' is caught between the wire fence and and that brick wall the guards have a right to shoot ya. And shoot ya dead. 3623[Uh, [now Malcolm X enters Norfolk and he and I started to visit the BB 3631 library. They had a lota uh recreational things up there for the men. Ah. We could go to the ball park. We could walk around the huge quadrangle. Ah, then they had a beautiful library, or you could even keep a garden, and then surprisingly enough he made a garden, and he used to grow some vegetables in the summertime too. But the main thing that we did. We started visitin' the library and we started taking out books on Egyptology, hieroglyphics, psychiatgy, and BB 3677 psychology and ancient history.]]3679 And these books were on the top shelfs in that lib, God knows they had a half inch of dust on 'em. Uh, they had never been taken out of the

library, I don't think, from the time they were put there, but there was a wealth of BB 3697 knowledge in ‚ 'em, and these books started to open his eyes, his eye and my eye, as to what the world is all about and what makes it tick.

Q: OK, now, I'm gonna, I'm gonna back you up a little bit, and I want you to ... you remarked, you talked to me one time about the sta.., your state of mind and Malcolm's state of mind, when you both go into Charlestown.

Q: ... the feeling about what has happened to you. You know and what it means and in its own way it begins to define the rest of your li.., the rest of, at least the rest of your life and the rest of Malcolm's life in terms of, of what the rest of your life is about. Talk about your state of mind after you've been convicted of a crime, received a sentence and felt that a lot ... some of it had to do with the um uh, the fact that you

were there with these white women, has to do with racism.

Q: OK. Startin' again. Tell me when you're talking about, OK?

Q: Start again. Start again.

happened to be the case in later years. As you could see uh, Malcolm Little became the BB 3851 famous Malcolm X, and he went on to fame, not so much fortune. And he might have been even a greater man had he had lived longer.

Q: OK. So, I, you have...

(MISC) Lyn, just write that down? MmHmm. Take nine.

SPEEDING -- MARK IT

Q: You ... you have access to library. Uh, you and Malcolm are Muslims coming in to Norfolk. Talk to me about this community of Muslims that begins to grow in Norfolk and the kind of things you're doing. How do you begin to get identified as ... as something special within the the larger population?

Charlestown, and [[3921 this thing about Islam and us bein' Muslims as beginning to grow and BB 3927 escalate. So, we formed another group in Norfolk with Charles O'Neill and we picked up another, another recruit named Boise Phillips, who was a young black boxer from Youngstown, Ohio, and there was another young fellow who was a singer from New Jersey. And what we used to do instead of forming circles, we would meet in one fellows room in today, or we'd go across the quadrangle to BB 3966 somebody else's room tomorrow. We never congregated in the same room too many times, and we isolated ourselves from the general population of the prison. We just didn't have anything to say to anybody unless it was business or to do with work, especially if they were white.]]3990 Now you see the warden took notice of this ... this and ah, they didn't like it, but the only way they could get at us, they had to needle at us, so they told us BB 4005 again in Norfolk that we had to shave. The prison rules were you had to shave three times a week. So I, I will use myself as an example. The warden called me up to his

office one day and says, "Jarvis, you've got to shave." And I said, "I'm, I'm not going BB 4029 to shave now." I asked the warden, I said, "You know you've got 680 Catholics that go to the Catholic Church every Sunday morning and worship Jesus Christ as their God." I said, "We Muslims don't have any, any place to go to worship, so we do our worship, that means do, doing what comes naturally. We refuse to shave the hair from our head or the hair from our face because it acts like an antenna. Like ... it's the same purpose like an BB 40474 antenna is to a radio is to our brain. so we're payin' tribute to Allah as our God." And I asked the warden, I said, "What right have you to put yourself above that of God or Allah?" And he got highly insulted. He told me, "You get out of my office, but I still didn't shave." See, so, and he didn't say anything or threaten me because you see I had family visiting me every week. And ah this could become a a a very nasty thing on the BB 4115 outside if my family wanted to take it to the news media. So to keep it quiet they did nothing.

Q: So as a group you, you had ah, kind of isolated yourselves.

Q: What things did you do, and how did the rest of the population kind of respond, I'm talking about the prison population...

Q: ...respond to this small group that begins isolating itself.

Q: Well, talk, it, put it in a...

them whatsoever. They couldn't figure us BB 4173 out. ] We had ‚ 'em puzzled.]4175 That's the big word. We had 'em puzzled.

Q: What kind of things did you do that were contrary to the normal things everyone else did? Talk to me about that.

Q: Now.. Wh, what, how, how often, or how regularly would you end up using the library and, and um, how did other prisoners ...

Q: especially the...how did, how did the, especially the other black prisoners respond to this group of young black men in the library all the time.

Q: So, how, how did they get, how did they find out what you were getting out of it?

Q: OK. Start again and put that in a complete sen- sentence...The letters that Malcolm was writing out to...and talk about the letters, Malcolm as the letter writer, and what happened to those letters, OK?

Q: Talk about the correspondence of Elijah Mohammed; how regularly was Malcolm corresponding with letters, and were you writing as well, but...talk...

Q: ...talk about Malcolm's correspondence (unintel)

Q: OK. Uh...(garbled)...you gotta say that again for me, OK. 'Cause you can't use

'casework', people don't know what you mean. And when you say uh...

Q: , You said it! You said Elijah Mohammed to his sister, they'll think it's Elijah Mohammed's sister. Malcolm's sister, and then from Hilda to Malcolm.

Q: No, start the whole thing again, tell me that whole thing again.

Q: OK, start again.

Q: Let's cut. Let's cut. Jarvis, I think I'm not being clear.

Q: Those letters, which uh he censored, would be read by the prison, and that's how they understood what he as thinking, what he was saying, and and became concerned about it.

Q: OK. Let's pick up there, OK, 'cause I'm interested in how that information comes in, and how it goes out afterwards. OK, ready to roll?

MARK IT

TAKE TEN.

Q: OK, talk to me about Malcolm and uh his re1ationship...his relationship with Elijah

Mohammed in prison, and how mat- information is coming in to him, and how he's letting, how he's writing, getting it out...

prison to he and I. Uh, I'd like to say this, [5129 that you know the true knowledge of the BB 5131 world is not written in books, that as his sister says, it's passed down from generation to generation from mouth to ear. And Malcolm and I were playing the part of like Solomon in the Bible; we were seeking knowledge and wisdom of the world. And that's what had us going into these books of Egyptology, uh the hieroglyphics, uh psychiatry, psychology, theology, uh...we studied Shintoism...we BB 5177 studied many things out of these books that we had at the library, 'cause were just seeking basic knowledge of what makes the world tick.]]5186 Now, through his letters that he wrote out, which were censored, [[5197 every letter he ever wrote was censored, sometimes they even photostated them, uh they learned what we were trying to do to our minds. We were trying to acclimate our minds into thinking BB 5217 on a much higher level than that of the average person. They knew what we were advocating. Even the prison psychiat- psychiatrist uh must musta warned them about

this. Next thing I knew, they confiscated the books out of the library. ]]5235

Q: OK, and uh, were you ever...were you and Ma1colm...I mean Malcolm was a voracious writer, he wrote lots of letters.

Q: Uh, talk to me about his letter-writing, and then talk to me how, talk to me about how then the prison began, once they started confiscating his letters and reading them, began to have to to to hassle him about his thinking...the psychiatrist, and those kinds of things.

Q: Start again. Malc- letter-writing was a was a outlet for Malcolm.

took like that...what you call, quick wits. Very quick wit.

Q: OK, uh, so, did uh...you...at this point, you are uh beginning your your you...youíre very much involved in in Muslim theology, and the ideas of Elijah Mohammed. Uh, how is the prison responding to those ideas, and those ideas being expressed in your letters.

Q: OK, Talk to me now...as as a result of your reading, though, uh, you and Malcolm become part of this prison debate team.

Q: The debating class begins to take on uh university debate teams.

Q: ...BU, Harvard, MIT, places like that...

Q: Describe this debate uh challenge that you that you and Malcolm were involved in, and give me a sense of what it was like, and how strong (unintel)...

against those of the people of the world, BB 5537 such as the college students that were coming in.]]5540 We had 'em come there from Harvard, Yale, uh...what's that other college up here? There's another one, I forget the name of it. Boston University. Uh, they sent 'em down...they used to take turns every other week. [[5560 Now, what we used to do, they would be debating different things on race, religion, BB 5517 and Malcolm would back 'em to the wall with his questions and answers, and then while he was talking, I would be jotting down questions and what they say to him. I'll be jotting down a rebuttal, and shove it under under his hand, and he'd look down and then he'd take over. This way, he got his practice about debating, and talking as an orator. And he used to...he used to BB 5606 captivate the audiences out there. Now that was his that was his foundation for later in life.]]5617

Q: Describe this this orator in prison. Give me a give me a...I I've never seen him in prison...

Q: OK, uh so...uh,how did the prison population respond to this success of the of the debate team?

now they bring these students in, and then while the students were fighting against us, BB 5723 the prison officials sat on the sideline taking it all in. See? So now they'd know how to handle us.

Q: Did uh...did you ever get a sense that that they felt that Malcolm was uh somewhat dangerous within the prison (unintel)?

Q: OK, start this again. Do that again for me. Did they feel that um...when did you recognize that the prison understood, and saw

Malcolm as somewhat dangerous, and give me that story again, and use Malcolm's name.

Q: So what were the consequences of that? (unintel)

like that. They knew that we were after something extraordinary that was gonna BB 5880 escalate when we got out of prison. They knew this, they felt it. They're not stupid, now! See? That's why they were monitoring us and watching us very closely.

Q: OK. _So just before you go to parole, the prison brings you and Malcolm before the psychiatrist. Tell me what that means,and what is the impact of that in terms of both of your paroles.

even while we were in prison, the bureaucracy was worried about us, before we got out. Now BB 5965 you talk about going to the psychiatrist, uh...I went to see the psychiatrist first, uh they sent Malcolm up I think about two weeks after me. And I can recall, the psychiatrist looked at me and says, "Mr. Jarvis, what what why do you think you're in prison?" And I looked at him back square in the eye, I said, "Because I think the world is crazy, and the BB 5798 world thinks I'm crazy, and because the majority out there rules," I said, "I'm in here. [outThey put me in here." And he just looked at me.

Q: OK. We just rolled out ... and we'll pick that up, and then you can tell me about Malcolm visiting the psychiatrists. But do you...

Q: OK. Uh, now let's pick up in talking about Malcolm and uh, it's just before parole he goes to the people or psychiatrists. What does he say and what happens? What was the consequences of his visit as well?

thousand, he was gonna spoil many.]]6131 So therefore, they tried to contain him as long BB 6136 as they could, in prison, which they did, that's why they refused him. And by refusing him, they burnt the hatred to his soul more so. And that was the foundation of his enthusiasm and determination to become great when he got out.

Q: Now, what what does he say to the psychiatrist? And what do they uh...what is the consequence of...

Q: But you're talking on top of me and we can't do that. Start again.

Q: Now

Q: The pause we won't be able to use, so...I'm sorry.

Q: OK. Uh...now...I'm gonna go back to something. Um, when did...how did Malcolm uh approach you or talk to you about Islam, and

how did you react when he first talked to you about it?

Q: Malcolm...

Q: Now, were you receptive to the teachings of lslam, and and his ideas when he first approached you, and how did you respond when he first came to you?

Q: If you were to think back into prison days, and uh and you have a memory of Malcolm in prison that sticks in your mind, a moment, uh an event, something that happened that

sticks with you, that you've never let go, what is that, what is that moment that best helps all of us to see him as well, in terms of who he was and what he fought for?

Q: There was a TV in..

Q: OK.

fellas wanted to jump in, and Malcolm stood up with a knife in his hand, and he said, BB 6536 "Let the baddest man jump in there," he said, "and I'll take 'im down!" And this boy and I fought, and I beat the boy, and I had to go and do eight days in the dungeon on bread and water for fighting, which was against the rules and regulations of the prison. That BB 6547 remark uh stands mostly in my mind, because he was more or less protecting me from the multitude that wanted to jump in on the fight.

Q: Is this something that Malcolm was always like, that he was he was he was there that way uh a lot...

Q: OK. Uh...what was the...I I...someone someone described that uh as a group, sometimes you could find even beyond the debates that you had in the class, in in as a part of the class, that in the yards and

before curfew, you could find uh uh people in a circle, talking, and Malcolm in the center of it at times.

Q: Now describe one of those scenes for me, and how that was...what kind of things you'd talk about, and describe the scene, so I can get a picture in my mind.

face the East and say prayers five times a day to Mecca. Those are the sort of things BB 6680 he used to try to, you know, convince us of.

Q: And how how did other uh inmates respond to Malcolm,...

Q: Give it to me in a full statement. Who we're talking about, and what they're talking about.

Q: Malcolm.

learn, and remember, trying to better themselves, in their ways of thinking.

Q: OK, that's good, except Malcolm gave other inmates, 'cause we don't know who we're talking about, so start again. Malcolm gave other inmates.

Q: OK. Uh, now...Once you're released, Malcolm's released a year later. When do you first see each other again? What is that what is that reunion like?

SPEED. MARK TAKE TWELVE.

Q: Um, tell me about uh when you first uh meet Malcolm after prison. This is the first time you meet him (unintel)

Q: OK. Now tell me, how did Malcolm...How had Malcolm changed uh after he came out of prison. Talk about the change that you saw in him.

Q: [MISC] OK. Uh, now, at that...when you took that Cavalcade, when you all went to to Chicago together, did Malcolm get his X?

Q: When we went to Chicago, Malcolm got his X, and what happened for you, you didn't.

Q: Let's let's change.

THIS'LL BE UH SOUND ROLL THIRTY-EIGHT, MALCOLM PROJECT UH FOR BLACKSIDE. CAMERA ROLL SEVENTY-FIVE. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH MALCOLM JARVIS.

READY? WE'RE OUT IN THE HALL.

TAKE THIRTEEN.

Q: OK, talk to me about the person you saw uh when you're at the Intervale Mosque and the change that you saw in Malcolm at that time.

Q: OK, start again like we talked about(?).

and I he was at the Intervale mosque, Intervale Street Mosque, and I went there and I asked for him, but they would not admit me BB 7565 to the mosque ‚'cause I was not a Muslim. Uh, but they did give him the message, and he came to the front door, and I'll never forget. He had uh the black Oldsmobile that he owned when he was assassinated, and I had an Oldsmobile sitting right behind his car, which was doing, and he was so proud to let me know that he was successful and had a nice car, he says, Jarvis, how do you like my new BB 7600 car over there? I said, "Well, how do you like the one behind it?" I said, "That's mine." (laughter)And we laughed and joked about that. But uh, the next time I saw him was down at the John Quincy Hancock Hall when Elijah Mohammed spoke, a few weeks later on a Sunday. And when he saw me come through the door, he ushered me down and gave me a front- row seat, right behind the Fruit of Islam. BB 7633 Now, my opinion of of Malcolm's attitude from the days I knew him in prison and at the time I saw him then, when he was a very cool, calm and collected individual. And uh...in fact,

it worried me, personally, that he was so quiet. Because you know, they say underneath BB 7662 all the calm is the storm, and his storm came later, as you all know.

Q: OK, you you mentioned that that uh when he came out that day, you're out on the steps, that you remember him being much more thoughtful, that a lot of the wildness had disappeared.

Q: Uh, talk to me about that. What did you see, and...

Q: when uh...and I'm I'm gonna move back now, to another time, when you're back in prison. Uh, you were with Malcolm when when uh uh he asked he was asking for cells that faced East.

Q: In Charlestown.

Q: Yes. OK. Talk about that uh, about that experience. What happened then, describe it to me, help me understand what that was all about.

Q: I need you to restart I'm sorry. Let me start you again. Let me know that we're talking about Malcolm.

Q: Let me know that we're talking about Malcolm. Malcolm goes to the warden...

Q: And uh...te1l me the story. Ready? {MISC}

Q: OK talk to me about the time when Malcolm goes to the warden to request a cell facing the East.

five times a day. And the warden says "Well," he says, "I don't think you should have a cell facing the East. You take what. comes along, like everybody else." But the warden was nervous. So to keep things quiet BB 7892 and to keep him happy, they gave him the cell facing the East. That's when Malcolm shook up the prison system about Islam being in Charlestown. They didn't know what to do.

Q: Let's cut a second.

MARK TAKE FOURTEEN

Q: OK. (unintel)

Q: Tell me again. You can't...Don't say my question. Say the zoot suit was...

Q: Malcolm was the first person...they might not hear my question, or...

Q: Or...and leave the 'as you said before'. Malcolm was the first per...

Q: Ready.

length. The trousers were made something like thirty-five inches in one leg, and they tapered down to sixteen inches at the ankle, BB 8029 taking on the effect of a balloon. And then they had what we call the knob-toe shoes, that slightly pointed up, almost like a Dutch, Dutchman's shoe. And then he had the long chain from his waist that went from his waist down to his ankle and back up to his hip. And then when he was dancing on the floor, and he was floating around, those BB 8063 pants were like he was a floating balloon. With th-, and that coat was like a wing, the way he'd be dancing and flying around with that big ten-gallon hat on and the chain flinging. And this used to really shake up BB 8079 the girls. (laughter).]]8082

Q: OK. Good.Uh...Let's stop a second.

TAKE FIFTEEN MARK

Q: OK, talk to me about this ... this um ... what Malcolm was like when he's debating and how it's translated into this concept of being a crazy nigger.

Q: OK. Let's start again. You started by talking about...in the debates, Malcolm was was was...

Q: I understand.

Q: OK.

Q: Well, let's pick it up. Because you're talking about the debate, and how he was, he was quick on his feet, and he was able to outsmart these college students.

Q: ...supposedly smart people. Stop me there and follow it up with that how that was translated to authority.

Q: Well, you did so good before. (laughter)

TAKE SIXTEEN

was sick. That's the only way I could describe the way I felt. I was actually BB 8316 sick. And I felt bad for his family.]]8328

Q: Uh, remembering that, go back to uh this image of Malcolm, you know, in prison, before the prison population, debating uh other uh university scholars and and students. Who is this person and how is he perceived among, not just peers, but those who were in authority...tell me that story.

admired the man's ability to speak and spellbound thousands of people at the same time.

Q: But he was also incredibly smart, and intellectual, and uh uh had a quick wit about him, and people saw that as somewhat dangerous, especially coming from a black man. What does that mean, and talk about that as of deb- Malcolm as a debator that way.

Q: OK, now with that with that same...go back to the debate again, uh...

WE JUST ROLLED OUT ...

Q: Yeah.