Champions. Miles Films. Althea Gibson. Sound Roll 7. Camera Roll 8. Sound 15.

Wait 'til I get the okay Clayton.

Alright.

Okay, go ahead.

You play world class, championship tennis. Would you describe your style of play and perhaps evaluate yourself, and the other players you competed against?

Well my style of play, I believe, was aggressive, dynamic, and mean. The players that I played against they were, they were the same actually, you know, because I came on the scene as a, as an upstart in those years. And, of course, in those years, I was struggling to become well known, as the first black player to compete against world class champions such as Louise Brough, who I had the, the occasion to win, beat her at Forest Hills during the U.S. nationals. But they were all very tough players, particularly on the grass surface that they had in those years at Forest Hills. [Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 2]

What were the circumstances that first brought tennis in to your life?

Well it was paddle tennis that started it all. At that time, my parents was living at 143rd street, between Lenox and 7th Avenue. And that was, happened to be, one of the play streets, and they had all types of games up and down the street: hoop basketball, marbles, loadies, and paddle tennis. And that paddle tennis court was right in front of my parents' stoop of that building. I think the address was 135 West 143rd Street. And, one summer morning, I came down and a friend of mine, we hung out together, we played together, we roamed the streets together, we saw two bats and a ball on the paddle tennis court. So I said to her, I said, What's that? She said, Well two bats and a ball. I said, Well let's pick it up, let's see what, so we started hitting back and forth. And, from that moment on, we were the block paddle tennis court occupiers. We would get up in the morning, as soon as they laid that court out, we were the first ones on, we stayed on, and we challenged anybody on the block to play us. Nobody would, so weirdly that's how I got started in tennis, through paddle tennis.

Sounds as though you were a very competitive, very athletic youngster. Were you?

I believe I was, in those years.

Would you give us an answer, I was a very—

OK. I was very competitive. In any of the sports that they had in that block, even down to shooting marbles on the manholes [cut].

The world of tennis has changed considerably since you were a freshman player at Florida A&M. Would you talk about that time, and how it was for you?

Well, when I went to Florida A&M, I went on a scholarship after graduating from Willston Industrial High School in Wilmington North Carolina, where I lived with Dr. and Mrs. Eaton and his family. They were my foster parents who took me in to their homes and provided me the opportunity to finish my high school education. I graduated in '49 and immediately got a scholarship to Florida A&M. Upon arriving at Florida, of course they wanted me on the Florida A&M tennis team, and the tennis courts happened to be behind a science hall, where I went to classes to take science lab work. And, I started playing, started practicing, and, as a matter of fact, I think Florida A&M won our conference championships every year that I was on the team.

Now I've skipped a little bit. I just want to back up with you for a moment. After your paddle tennis experience on your block, obviously you learned to play conventional tennis. Maybe you'd tell us a little bit about that, how that process developed. Who taught you—

Oh.

—Where did you go from your block to learn to play the game of tennis?

Well, after playing paddle tennis in the play streets, I think, I'm not, I'm not too sure on this, but that we have in those, in those years a tennis club called the Cosmopolitan Tennis Club. That was the black, I think it was the black elite tennis club in those years. And I was introduced to that club by the play street director of the play street named Buddy Walker, who happens to be a band leader, and plays tenor sax. And he introduced me to the club. And, upon introducing me, the tennis pro there, Fred Johnson, who happened to be one-arm, he lost one arm in, during the war. And, he took me on to teach me how to play lawn tennis. And, he taught me the basics, the footwork, the service motion. And, from 1946 to 50—, no I'm sorry, up to '46 I won the ATA girls' singles championship at the Cosmopolitan Tennis Club through the tutelage of Fred Johnson, at the time. And, I went on from there.

Can you remember your very first match? I mean your first real, official competitive match?

I certainly can. The, the champion of that club, of the Cosmopolitan Tennis Club, was named Nina Irwin. And she was Caucasian. And I think the, it was the New York State Championship they held at the tennis club, I won. The very first time that I played any tournament of, of lawn tennis, and I defeated the champion, and there, therefore I became the champion. And, so I won the girls' singles for a few years and I've had some competitors who, who defeated me during, when I was playing girls' championship, but, after that, I was a constant winner I think.

Can we cut for a moment?

Slate.

Sound 16.

You told us about your first victory in a tournament. Do you remember your first loss?

That, I don't, I think my first loss in the girls' singles during those years was to Na—, was it Nana, Nana Davis, yes, Nana Davis. I think she beat me, maybe the next year, but she only beat me once.

What happened that next year? Do you—

Well I don't remember what happened. I just lost. [cut]

[cut] Are there, in the history of tennis, a very, an outstanding career obviously, there must be some matches that stand out in your mind, that are particularly vivid to this day. Could you describe some of them?

Yes. There were two that is very vivid in my mind—

Can we go back and you say there were two matches that are—

There, OK. There were two matches that is very vivid in my mind, today. The first was on court number one at Forest Hills. I, the first time I played at Forest Hills. It was against, I think the defending champion at the time Louis Brough. I was beating her. I think it was set a piece, and the third set I was leading by two games of, let me see, four games, I'm not too certain on that. Anyway, I was leading. And all of a sudden, the clouds open up. The sky got dark, as if they didn't want me to win this match, and the rains came pouring down. Lightning came down immediately and struck the eagle on that corner of the stadium, and tumbled it down. And they had to postpone the match. And I had to sleep on that, that overnight. And the next day I came out, I didn't have nothing. I lost all sting and she beat me.

So—

Cut.

Cut.

Sound roll 7. Camera roll 9. Sound 17.

Another vivid match that, I don't think I'll ever forget. I was defending champion in 1958. It was the final match against Darlene Hard, who was a three or four time doubles champion. She won the first set, to my surprise, because what she was doing, I had not realized what she was doing. I was serving, and she was cutting my serve off, coming in, and catching it right on the rise, therefore beating me to the net. And I was considered a good net player. So she won the first set doing just that. The second set I scrambled, but I had to win the second set if I was going to defend successfully. So, after the break, we took a break after a set a piece. And we came back out, and she started doing the same thing over again, beating me to the net. So, my coach at the time, Sydney Llewellyn was sitting in the marquee. And, I was totally confused. I said, Now here I am the defending champion about to lose. I said, No I don't want this to happen. So I looked over a the coach, just glanced, and he, you know, I guess this is done between coach and player, he gave me one signal, and I proceeded to obey that signal and started putting a shot on Darlene that surprised her. And that shot was lob, when she came into the net, every time she came in, I lobbed over her head. I threw a lob up, it was so perfect it hit the chalk on the baseline, so that means she had to run from the net, back to the baseline, and retrieve that. Next time she came up to the net, I threw up another one, and it hit the chalk line again. The third time she came in I hit another perfect lob, and it hit the chalk line, and that was the end of Darlene Hard. I defended successfully.

In your years of playing did you ever encounter someone, another player, who you thought of perhaps as your nemesis? I mean somebody who was just so tough for you that maybe you didn't want to see them on the other side of the net.

No. Oh, yes, yes, yes indeed. I think it was the match before Darlene, could be, could've been the semi-final match that year. It was against a player who was ambidextrous, other words, she hit two forehands only, had no backhand. Other words, she would hit forehand and take the racket, switch another hand, and hit another forehand. Other words, she had no backhand. So, that confused me. But the only way I beat Beverly, was my serve was the, the key to that match. Because, in those days, and still, I was considered to have the best serve in women's tennis. The serve I put on her was called the American twist, which set the ball over to her left side, took her off the court, because the ball was set so severe that it would bounce and hop high. And she had to struggle to get it back, and I attacked the net, and invariably she would hit back down that line, on the right side of the court, and I would cut it off, and volley it away from her. That's the only way I beat her.

Was that the first time you beat her?

That was the only time I beat her. She beat me when I played a tournament in California. I think she beat me four times, but at the nationals, defending my title, that was the first time I beat her.

Tennis has always been a game involving a lot of traveling. And you had grown up in Harlem, in a city, Manhattan, New York City. What did those other parts of America, those other parts of the world, look like to you when you started to travel on the tennis circuit?

At first, strange, different, the people's mode of living intrigued me. As a matter of fact, I considered it a great education to be able to travel around the world as I did, being the first black, female tennis champion of the world to have this privilege, and I enjoyed it tremendously. I learned a lot, I saw a lot, and I played a heck of a lot of tennis all over the world. I think it's always great for someone to be able to travel, especially representing their country in a sporting event, to travel to different foreign countries, to see how other people of the world live. I enjoyed it very much. [Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 2]

What was the place, or what were the places, you were most impressed by?

Well, in my earlier years, of course, I was impressed with visiting Germany, England, France, India, Southeast Asia, Pakistan, Calcutta, as a matter of fact in '56 I was on a goodwill state department tour. There was four of us. Ham Richardson was the capitan, Bob Perry was the other male player, Carol Fagaros was the female player, and myself. And we played in every city, just about, in southeast Asia. And I won every tournament in southeast Asia, every one I played in, from Calcutta to Rangoon, Burma. And, that was quite a thrill. I got sick on one of those tours, because of the food, you know, but I guess being American, foreigners, you're gonna get sick now and then traveling. But it's quite an experience, quite an experience.

During your playing here is, what about the game of tennis was most important to you?

The game of tennis that was most important to me.

No, I mean what about the game do you think, as you were playing, what was there in tennis that was particularly important to you? Was it, was it winning was it—

Oh, well definitely it was, well it was mainly competing, because I was always a competitor. But being a competitor, I always wanted to win, so that was my main thing, is to play to win, the best way I knew how. And using my god-given skills, and of course the, the things that I learned through my coach, Sydney, who is, right now is my husband. He's got a mind for tennis that you would not believe. That fella can teach anybody how to become a champion, if they stay with him. And that's what I did. I think I became a champion because I stayed with him and learned, and practiced what I learned, used what I learned, that he taught me. As a matter of fact I think he taught me the American twist. I had no idea what that was about.

Would you tell us about meeting Sydney Llewellyn, and the circumstances of his becoming your coach?

I don't, I don't remember the year, but one of a, a friend named Billy Davis, this was during the years when I was winning ATA tournaments. And he tried to impress upon me, say, Now champ you ought to get a coach, 'cause they always called me champ, when I became a champ that was, that was my name, champ. Said, Champ now you ought to, you need a coach and I know someone who can help your game tremendously. And I said, Who is that? [cut] He said, well, Sydney Llewellyn. And I said, Who is Sydney? [cut] So, but eventually I did get to meet with Sydney and we started working out, and believe you me, he worked my butt off. The tennis courts that are on 7th avenue where he teaches now, we would have practice sessions every day, five days a week, eight hours a day, practicing serves, volleys, and in between practice, Billy Davis, the same one that introduced me to Syd, would come out and play. We would play as if we were playing a match for our lives. And, through him and Syd, my game became so powerful that, I guess to them, and to me, they said how could anyone beat this person? This woman. And we would have such great sessions practicing all day long. And that's how I became quite good, through those practice sessions and through Billy Davis coming and working out with me every day. Now, now mind you I didn't say one or two hours a day, eight hours on a tennis court, and just taking a break to have a snack, and to relax, and continue. I would get on, I would have a, Sydney would have maybe a box of balls, about two or three hundred balls on the service line, and I would serve all two or three hundred of those balls in one spot, until I was so accurate that I could close my eyes and put the ball where I wanted to. That's how, that's how he taught me how to play tennis. [Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 2]

When you look back to the period when you were, we should cut here. We only have a minute left. Cut and change.

Cut.

Champions. Bill Miles productions. Sound Roll 8. Camera Roll 10. Sound 18. Second ID.

I wonder if you would talk a bit about the modern game of tennis. What you see when you see matches, what kind of players impress you or don't impress you.

I don't want to talk about that.

You don't want to talk about the modern game at all?

The modern game. Wait a minute. Hold it. Stop the cameras. Syd, come here. [cut]

Sound 19.

I know you continue to see tennis today. I know you continue to, to watch the game. Would you share some of our, your impressions about this? What do you see when you go to tennis matches today? How are you impressed by the game?

Well, I'm quite impressed in that, from my time of playing—

Would you just stop a moment. Would, would you say I'm quite impressed by what I see in tennis today.

All right. I'm quite with what I see today in the modern tennis players, in that they're younger, they're coming out young, and they, one thing I'm, I'm not impressed with, however, is that they don't seem to be hitting with drive like I would in my day and the players during my time. They seem to be hitting with more top spin as if they wanna make the ball hop a little more. They don't seem to have the, that forward drive, that ball is propelling across the net. Okay? I'm also impressed, of course, with there are plenty of players coming out and they're making money. In my day, it was for peanuts and for, for cups, and for silverware, and not, not, not the bread, shall I say to quote [cut]. That's what I'm impressed with, today, I wish I was, I wish I was able to play today to make the kind of money that they're making. I wouldn't have to worry about a thing [cut].

I'm gonna give you the beginning of a sentence and I'd like you to complete the sentence.

OK.

The first words of this sentence are to be a champion.

To be a champion you have to have intensity, to be a champion. You have to have the willingness and a desire to get out there and sweat, to train, have diligence, and would want to win, want to win. Because I notice a lot of players that they, especially some of our black young ladies, I've noticed that they don't seem to have the intensity, the drive to want to win. I was looking at a match at the U.S. open this, recently, and I was noticing one of our black young ladies playing. To me, she had the match won, but then I noticed something there, there was no drive, seemed like she just quit all of a sudden without continuing on to force that drive and intensity that is required, particularly for her to win that particular match. And this is what I'm, I'm, I'm not too impressed with, with some of our black players. They don't seem to have that willingness to want to win.

Cut.

Sound 20.

Many people may think that the conditions under which you played were filled with prejudice, racial discrimination, and perhaps that wasn't the condition. What was it like in your own, how do you remember it?

Well, I'm sure that there was prejudice. But, I supposed I ignored it because I was so intense in my tennis, playing the game of tennis, that I didn't even think about it. And, so it didn't bother me. And then maybe one thing that, that might have, might have saved me was that, in those years, I was antisocial. I didn't care or give a hoot about going to parties, and cocktail affairs, and hanging out with the, the other tennis groups and the other tennis players. After I finished my match I went home, relaxed, had my supper, and discussed with my coach what had to be done the next day and that was it. So it didn't bother me. So I, so I just ignored it. [Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 2]

I think we're good.

Cut.

Yes, yes. Thank you.

I think that's fine—