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Interview with Dr. John Henrike Clarke, conducted by BLACKSIDE, INC. on Malcolm X. Washington University Libraries, Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection.
THIS IS A THIS IS CONTINUATION OF CAMERA ROLL 170 ON SOUND ROLL 84, TAKE ONE IS COMING UP AND THIS WILL BE INTERVIEW WITH INTERVIEW WITH JOHN HENRY CLARKE.
SPEEDING. MARK. TAKE ONE.
Q: Dr. Clarke can you describe the 1940's Harlem that Malcolm enters for those who have no sense of what Harlem was like then?
The 1940's in Harlem was the ah
years after WWII. There was a lot of
disenchantment over the broken promises that
the community didn't expect to be kept in the
first place. It um was a period of reaction
to havin’ fought in a war that you had some
misgivens about in havin’ come home and
finding only to find conditions not
there any more so, the idea of returning to
the old jobs didn't work because the defense
industries and in the movement of industries
an had taken the job away so there was no
obligation to give you one. There was er a
um a mini recession which is a polite word
for rehearsal for a depression, and doing
this time with that reaction Malcolm X would
come into the Harlem community. It had um no
appreciable background to the concept of
Islam, uhm the Muslim faith an the generation
he he was. It is often forgotten that Adam
Powell was most effective as a community
politician and as a community representative
before he became a national representative.
It was in that atmosphere that a Malcolm X
would come to Harlem to ah hit a Mosque and
be the national spokesman for Elijah Mohammed
and the movement, sometimes referred to as
Q: And could I ask you to describe the first meeting that you had with Malcolm at the African Heritage Exposition? And the conversation you had about the...
The first the first meeting I had with him at the African Heritage uhm Expedition the World Trade Show building was on Eighth Avenue then an I had just returned from a number of months in Africa, mainly Ghana. I was all excited about Africa and I'd taken this job ’n as Head of a Research Director Head of the exhibition. Fifty dollars a week and our didn't get that most of the time. And a lot of the objects were
my own personal objects brought back from
Africa. Malcolm X was one of the um conse’-,
people who rented a booth th’-, an his group
rented three booths because they had that
much activity and he would come and supervise
his group and as they uh displayed their
wares and
like such a nice person you someone need to
teach you proper way to eat." And our
relationship began with Malcolm X kidding me
over my pork eating and that good natured
kidding over pork lasted most of um our
relationship.
Q: Can you give me though, a sense of the diversity that connecting without naming names, a sense of ....ok lets cut..ok
MOVING ON TO CAMERA ROLL ONE SEVENTY-ONE ON SOUND ROLL EIGHTY-FOUR. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH JOHN HENRY CLARKE.
SPEEDING. MARK. TWO.
Q: Dr. Clarke give me a sense of the variety of people that Malcolm passed into in that shadow cabinet.
people in this shallow cabinet, none of them
Muslims, was equivalent to the faculty of a
good university.
debated three college professors from eleven
to one and made them look like children, to
the extent that afterward one of the
professors came to me and said "I saw your
hand in this, and never do that to me again."
Q: Do you have other um, do you want to cut a second and just so that you can wipe your face just a little bit.....
Q: Describe the personal Malcolm.
The personal Malcolm was rare, because very few people got to know him on a personal basis and a whole lot of people who
said they were his friends, were phoneys.
Q: Did Malcolm have a good sense of humor?
eating pork I'm going to give you a hundred."
Q: You also mentioned that you saw a piece of childhood in him and that was a strength, can you talk about that?
Q: You also mention that um that Malcolm and an an um and Elijah are good team, they're a good team be good to each other.
They they were
prefacing his speech by saying "The Honorable
Elijah Mohammed teaches us" Malcolm X
personally was teaching Malcolm X original
lessons over and above anything the Honorable
Elijah Mohammed ever thought about or was
capable of thinking about.
Q: And what is Elijah Mohammed and the structure of the Nation providing?
Huh?
Q: What is Elijah and the Nation provide to Malcolm in terms of structure?
The nation gave him were...
Q: I'm sorry. Can you mention the name of it?
Th’-, the, the Nation, Elijah Mohammed...
Q: I'm sorry. We rolled out.
UH THIS IS SOUND ROLL EIGHTY-FIVE ON CAMERA ROLL ONE SEVENTY-TWO. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH DR. CLARKE.
OK READY.
ROLLING. MARK. FOUR.
Q: So what does the nation provide to Malcolm?
not have known of the nation.
Q: As a matter of fact, let me ask you, can you talk about how Malcolm is influenced by the Garvey’s and its present in Harlem when he gets here in the fifties, can you talk about self dependency, how he changes that?
Well, I think Marcus I think um
Q: Now how is Malcolm affected when he comes into Harlem and as you know in some ways influenced by the Garveyism here in Harlem?
He sees a Harlem...
Q: I'm sorry. Can you mention Malcolm?
by African people, the stores, the goods and
the services should be controlled by African
or black people.
Q: Let me ask you something else too. People have said that Malcolm hated white people, and you said it wasn't personal. Can you explain that?
been committed against his own people by that
society. He hated even more that a lot of
these were being committed in the name of
democracy and Christianity and that the same
people who took people's land, their country,
demeaned their culture, laughed at their
gods, said that they were doing this in the
name of spreading civilization.
Q: So that it was not an individual kind of hatred then?
No. It was not an individual
kind of hatred that Malcolm X had, he
described the members of the society and, and
what they had done,
not call for any of us to conquer any one's
land, he believed in law, he believed in
respect for all people, and he believed that
if we are respected we in turn need to hold
respect for others. He did not advocate the
formation of uh any black racist group, but
he did advocate progressive self defense,
Q: Now do you see any change when he comes back you from you know, people said there's this big change after Africa from the megaletter. How did you interpret that and how he see the role of white people?
In the first place, this is a misinterpretation of an aspect of the life of Malcolm X.
Q: Sorry, if you could tell us what we're talking about.
We're talking about Malcolm X
letter, it was really a post card, that he
sent after he visited Mecca.
observation that he saw white Muslims, brown
Muslims, Muslims of all color worshipping
together and getting along in peace. This
was an observation, not an analysis.
Q: Hold that point we've run out again.
MARK. FIVE.
Q: Dr. Clarke do you have a sense from discussions with Malcolm X on how he how he feels in that letter from Mecca?
In Malcolm X letter about his
visit to Mecca is continuously misinterpreted
because we're assuming that his
interpretation, his observation was universal
and it meant that he forgave all.
talking about a given condition in a part of
the world on the condition where people meet
in a annual religious ceremon with no
respect to race, color or land
Q: I'm wondering if you could possibly um talk about what he actually tells you about what he has discovered and his relationship with whites at that point.
Well, he did not dwell on his relationship with with whites as such, he dwelled on his relationship and what he understood about the people of this this part of the world. And this part of the world was a mixture, you ha’-, quite forget that Western Asia mistakenly called the Middle
everyone about his problems in the in the Nation, and a whole lot of people said that Malcolm gave them inside information had no information at all. Um, Malcolm X discussed these matters fleetingly with me, but never, never in depth. The most that I learned about his difficulty with the Nation, I learned from others.
Q: Do you see Malcolm growing even while he's within the Nation?
He grew while he was in the Nation...
Q: If you could just mention Malcolm.
Q: What is your reaction when you hear that um he's been silenced? First of all, what is your reaction to the chickens ‘chickens coming to roost’ statement that he um——
Well, really,,the ‘chicken
coming home to roost’ statement wasn't too
much of a statement. It was really an answer
to a question. And the fact that he was
expelled from the Nation based on this proved
that they were waiting for something to use
against him anyway, that there were forces
gathering against him before he made the
They liked their little petty power
positions. And theéfuwire other people in
the Nation with aspirat
Q: OK.
Q: --changed in many ways (unintel)--
MARK.
Q: Why does Malcolm go to Africa?
got these eight African nations to consider
placing the plight of the American black
before the United Nations as a human rights
problem, as against a civil rights problem.
His trip to Guyana need to be looked at
separate and distinct from that. His
conference with Incruma, what came out of it,
or failed to come out of it. He didn't talk
very much about it, unless (unintel), who was
in Guyana at the time, wrote a diary of
Malcolm X's visit to Guyana
disappoint- disappointed after the
appointment. He did not get what he thought
he was going to get.
Q: Now, what is his object in going? For people who don't know Scientific Socialism.
Well, Scientific Socialism is uh--
Q: We don't, not even to explain it, but just to give a sense of what his object is, what Malcolm's object is, in going to Africa.
give preference to our freedom struggle that had been so terribly neglected.
Q: And does Malcolm talk to you? when Malcolm comes back to Africa, does he talk to you about, do you see any change in him in any way?
No, he tended to...no. When Malcolm X came back to A— from Africa...his conversation and his activity centered around the internationalization of the black struggle in the United States and to what extent he could effect a connection between that struggle and the activity of African people living in other parts of the world. In order to get some strength over and beyond the borders of the United States.
Q: How does, um how does Malcolm influence, uh there's a whole discussion around the Congo, the violence in the Congo. How does the fact that he went to the OA, OAAU meeting, um, how is that reflected in what
African diplomats do when they compare the Congo with our type of...?
Well, there really is no comparison with the Congo and our plight here, because—-
Q: I'll tell you, let me rephrase that. I'm sorry. Do you see Malcolm's influence on African dignitaries when they do discuss the Congo incident at the UN?
Q: Did Malcolm ever get this feeling um, there’re some black Americans saying, "Why are you talking about Africa?" Did he ever talk to you about what he had to fight here in this country to get black Americans to understand why that was important?
Q: OK. (unintel) cut (unintel).
Q: OK.
Q: Alright, how do you feel as a serviceman, and you're in the middle of this riot in Harlem?
Well, I arrived back uh into Harlem, which is my home, eh on following uh forty-three in the midst of the uh riot had happened the day before. The community was literally a police state. There was broken glass, and a lot of the streets, lot of stores were boarded up, or their windows had been broken. Hundred-and-twenty-fifth Street was garrisoned, and mo’ police at the subway...I didn't quite know what was happening. See, I had been on the train for
day and a half, and I didn't have me no
radio, ‘cause during the war, you came by way
of St. Louis, you came in a roundabout way,
then came through New York. So coming from
Texas, it really took a day and a half just
to get here. So having heard nothing about
it, I arrived in the midst of something which
I had not known about until I just was right
here. And then I began to enquire as to the
basis of uh the riot. And it was part a
pent—up anger. It was part of the fact that
a whole lot of people getting more jobs, and
community. It seemed rather self-defeating to me. I thought there might’ve been a better way to make your statement, but that's a debatable thing to some people
Q: And we have out. Thank you.
WE'RE RELOADING.
Q: Did Ma1co1m-- [audio cuts here]
THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE’S PRODUCTION OF UH MALCOLM X ON CAMERA ROLL, CAMERA ROLL SEV- ONE-SEVENTY-SIX ON SOUND ROLL EIGHTY-SEVEN. CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH DR. CLARKE.
Q: OK.
MARK.
Q: OK. Dr. Clarke, what effect did Malcolm X have on you? I mean, did it make a difference that he was through your life?
Malcolm X had a profound effect
on my 1- on my life, and...and that effect is
permanent.
opportunities that might have turned the head
of other men, and didn't take them, on
principles, was offered large sum of money to
start a rival mass mosque, to uh in
opposition to Elijah Mohammed. He turned it
down. He's a person who stood for a basic
principle, and couldn't be persuaded to
change from those principles.
Q: Where--
He was true to them, and he
lived by them.
Q: Where are you when you hear that he has been assassinated?
Jerry Spambly
someone said, "After all, he was anti-
Semitic,” and I took exception to this,
knowing full well he was not. Then I excused
myself and I went in, went into their
bathroom and and cried, 'bout fifteen
minutes.
him, over and above, and stronger and far
better at planning than the Nation of Islam
and its dissident elements. And he began to
feel kind of fatalistic about it, though. I
can't prevent it, so get it over with.
Q: When you say he was fatalistic, did he talk to you about how he was feeling at that time?
No, he talked indirectly. And,
what he's saying that I know,
wasn't gonna be that Sunday, and I had talked to some unnamed friends of mine, at least they had talked to me about it, and the possibility of smuggling him out of the country.
Q: Dr. Clarke, who do you think killed him?
A combination of the Nation of Islam--
Q: Sorry, you could just start again, and say—-
thing, we might know whose hands pulled the
trigger. The real thing we need to look at
is the who hired the men to pull the trigger?
Who stimulated them? Who propagandized their
mind to the point that he would pull the
trigger?
Q: And what do you think, in terms of when you first hear that he's been killed?
Hmmm?
Q: When when he's when you first hear that he's been killed, what do you first feel? I mean, is it anger, is it loss? What are you feeling?
It was both anger, sorrow, loss, and a--
Q: I’m sorry. If you could start again.
sickness, and...I wanted to strike out at,
and there was nobody that I could justifiably
teacher after that, I became a better human
being. And each time I turn out, semester
after semester, remarkable students who've
gone on to head programs, some who've gone on
to (unintel), some cultural attaches, eleven
heads of black studies programs, I can say to
that shadowy spirit of a person or a friend,
Q: Dr. Clarke, we've rolled out.
(unintel)
Q: Could you, could you start that again, and just say how he (unintel) your--
Huh?
Q: Cou- if you could just start that again, and explain how he's affected your teaching style.
Mmm-hmm. Are we on camera?
Q: We are. As a matter of fact, if you could just mention that he affected your, you had that internal dialogue,
Mmm-hmm.
Q: ...and that he affected your deci- you know, (unintel) your decide, decision to teach, and his speaking style.
Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm. Malcolm X affected people in many ways. To me, he affected both my style of teaching and my style of uh teaching.
Q: I'm sorry, if you could repeat that again.
Malcolm X affected me in many
ways, mainly my style of teaching, and my
style of uh uh speaking.
Q: And could you talk again about how Malcolm's style then influences why you decide and the speaking style.
Well, I, you don't decide on a
style of teaching. You're influenced, and
the influence makes the decision, and you
are into it before you know that that's why
you are doing it. And later on, you're
students tell you that's what you are doing,
then you realize that that's what you are
doing. It is not generally a decision you
make, it is something you do by virtue of
Q: And how does Malcolm affect that?
He affected that by--
Q: Mention Malcolm.
Making-- Malcolm affected this
by making the memory of him, by making things
so very clear. And he was African in the
sense that he would illustrate some of his
points with animal stories, and rabbit
stories, hear stories, fox stories. This is
typical African teaching, before the
Q: Dr. Clarke, what is Malcolm's legacy to us now? What should we most get from him?
Q: What do you think young people should most get from him, from Malcolm?
Young people should get from him--
Q: I'm sorry. Can you mention Malcolm.
—-from Malcolm X, the--
Q: Could you just start again?
Young people should get from Malcolm X--
Q: (unintel)
--mostly the uh--
Q: Dr. Clarke, could you just state one more time?
What now?
Q: That uh young people should most get.
oppose
Q: Alright, cut.
MARK.
That's it? That's the end of it?
Q: Is there anything else that you want of us to have-- [audio cuts out here]
have buried the body of Malcolm. we have not
buried the spirit. We have not buried the
teachings. We have not buried the mission.
We have not buried the legacy. So we've
heard him once, we will hear him again.
Hearing is one thing, heeding him is another.
I think if we both hear him and heed him, we
Q: Yes, Lord.
Q: Whoah!