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Preferred citation:
Interview with Gloria Richardson, conducted by Blackside, Inc. on Malxolm X. Washington University Libraries, Film and Media Archive, Henry Hampton Collection.
That's how I can understand why people would. I mean, there are times in your life when you are just right--
THIS IS UH SOUND ROLL NINETY-THREE, CAMERA ROLL ONE-EIGHTY-EIGHT. INTERVIEW WITH MISS RICHARDSON.
AND THIS WILL, THIS WILL BE UH INTERVIEW WITH UH GLORIA RICHARDSON.
MARK.
ONE.
Q: So give me a sense of um the first time you're aware of Malcolm, and the sense that this is before you have become a civil rights uh movement activist.
Sometimes in in probably uh the late, around the late Fifties, uh when I I I lived in Cambridge, Maryland, and a lot of
the people there had had fanned out and gone
Q: Can you um start it with, you know, "When I first heard about Malcolm..."
OK. When I fi-, I'm sorry. When I first heard about Malcolm, um.
Q: I'm sorry. You need to open your eyes and then just start again.
When I first heard about
Malcolm,
him, uh and and the kinds of things that he
was saying, and he understood about black
folks. Really a a fantastic speaker. And
uh, a lot of the people weren't really ready
to become Muslims, but they were re-, they
could identify with him.
Q: And what what first attracts you to Malcolm? I mean, what is it about his philosophy that--
I think the militancy and and
the fact...
Q: Now, why are you, what is it about the Nation that makes you resistant?
Oh, I think it's too regimented. I think that uh wha-. I'm sorry. What what, in terms of the Nation, um, I think it's it's it's too regimented,--
Q: Sorry. If you could just keep it back in that time. Why, why were you resistant?
'sistant to it. Because I thought they were too regimented. Because I I I I had one man--
I'M SORRY. (UNINTEL) MOVING THE MIKE. MOVE IT. YEAH.
Q: OK. Let's start again. Why were you resistant to the Nation?
I was resistant to the Nation because I I had antipathy toward any kind of sing- one single figure, you know, being our Saviour, uh being anybody's Saviour. I I thought there was, in the kind of adulation that comes out of out of that kind of church
setting, um means it eventually corrupts that
person, and uh and is open for for kind of
Q: Now, urn, after you get involved in the Civil Rights Movement, do you see Malcolm in a different way?
After I got involved in the
civil rights movement, no, I don't see him,
uh, sage,
X." And in most instances, they would, like,
Q: Could you tell me that part again, and just mention Malcolm's name? That's important.
OK. The ... where do you want me to start from?
Q: Uh, talk about um how people in your locale are viewing him.
In my, in in um, in Cambridge during the the uh ... Cambridge, Maryland, I
thought I had done that. OK.
Q: Now, did you personally, back then, believe in the principles of non-violence, while you were in the movement?
While I was in the movement, I did not um personally believe in the in in non-violence as a philosophy. I I believed in it as a strategy, because, certainly, we can't pack up guns and go out in the street and start firing all over the place, or you'd truly be slaughtered. But um, I thought that, in terms of of educational process, and
this whole process of organization and and
getting people to go out and attack the
system, that you had to um use non-violence
as a tactic. Uh, I think that any kind of,
any kind of violent reaction is gonna have to
come from those people. It'll have to be
spontaneous, rather than to try to design
that. would would
Q: Now, you mentioned um, at one point something about, he would be on demonstrations, and then, and that would be
non-violent, but then at the end of that demonstration, something else might happen.
Oh, well, that was true, because
our our commitment ... Oh, in terms of, and in
terms of non-violence, uh and how it played
itself out practically, uh, we would have
non-violent demonstrations, but everyone knew
that once you came off of that demonstration,
that you were, that you'd better defend
yourself, and go home and defend your
Q: Let's cut. Uh...
MARK.
TWO.
Q: Did the people in your community also believe in self-defense?
The people in my com- in my
community believe in self-defense, and I also
think that was one of, one of the things that
they uh respected in Malcolm, uh and
understood what he meant. But no, certainly,
they felt, and and they prepared for self-
defense. Um, while those people who who had
committed themselves to non-violent marches
and demonstrations there was also another
to defend their community. And in fact, um,
and I think Malcolm probably understood that,
in terms of Cambridge, and that's why he
spoke about it, was that at night, uh I think
by the second summer, uh most of the men were
laying out in the fields with guns,
Q: OK. Cut.
MARK.
THREE.
Q: So, give me a sense of the Goal Conference in November of sixty-three, and where you are, and how you get to the other conference, the Goal Conference.
I was at the um ... I was in
Detroit. I had been invited to go to what
was billed as a grass, as a grass-roots
conference, supposedly, at um at Reverend uh
Franklin's church. And uh, there was a a a
man there from Cambridge that was a
physician, and so he invited me to come and
stay with him, so he had ta- he took me
over to the church. And uh, I went through
Q: (unintel), can you start again, and just get as, because what you were giving me before was the sense that it wasn't as grassroots- oriented as you--
Oh, no, I was going to get to that. Oh, yes--
Q: --say it that way instead, it'll be easier for (unintel).
OK. OK.
Q: So if you can just start it again.
OK. Um, I had been invited to uh what was billed as a grass-roots conference in um, in Detroit. And uh, at Reverend Franklin's church, with a series of workshops. And uh, I had gotten a call from this gentleman from Cambridge, inviting me to stay with him, because he had heard about the conference, and that they would take me over to the conference. So I did that, but when I
got over there, after three or four
workshops, it did not seem as if it was a
grass-roots conference. And I couldn't
understand what was going on. Uh, I realized
I had gotten something else in the mail, but
it had not really, really clicked. And I
didn't know Detroit. And I met some people
from um the East Coast that came up to me and
said, "You know, you're at the wrong
conference. Well, we're over at the Reverend
Krieg's church, and Malcolm's going to be
Malcolm spoke, and uh, and when uh I got back
home, Bob Bennet's wife says, "What on Earth
have you done to my husband? Who is this man
he's talking about?" You know, "Why is he so
upset? Why, you know, who is this?" And
he'd, like, turned him totally around, I
think probably because a lot of, like,
middle-class people realized these things,
had repressed 'em, you know, and going on
with their life and even keel, but you can't
really continue to do that if you sit and
subsequently, several years later, he told me he, when he got ready to do it, he thought I would be pleased, so there must have been, you know, something in my demeanor or whatnot that indicated that. But then, I, that was the first time I heard him live, and I was really, you know, impressed, and that was that the speech, I think, is billed as a grass-roots speech in in Detroit, yes.
Q: Now, can you tal-, when he gave the message through the grass-roots speech, can you give a sense of how you're reacting to it?
Oh, I thought it was just, I thought it was marvelous. Yes, it was just like uh, I guess, when some people go to church, right? In a different context.
Q: Just mention the speech somewhere in there. "I thought the speech was ... "
I thought the speech was wonderful. Uh, and it affected me like, um,
I guess, for other people going to church,
you know, and they get very enthused. Uh,
Q: Can you give me a sense um, again, of what what happened with Bob Bennet, and just mention that Bob Bennet and his family are the people you're staying with, and what happened.
OK. Um, Bob Bennet was from Cambridge, Maryland, and as I said, he was taking me back and forth to the to the conferences; first, the Reverend Franklin conference, and the Reverend Krieg, the one at Reverend Krieg's church. But he originally had come from Cambridge, but he
had a clinic there, and was, in fact, had
been personal physician to Joe Lewis. And
uh, and had and travelled, and kind of that
lifestyle. And uh, and and that's why he, I
think, I'm not sure, I think he may have been
a member of Reverend Franklin's church, but
he knew him, so that was how he had told
Reverend Franklin he he knew me, I was from
his home town, and ba-pa-pa-pa . But uh, when
impressed with him." And so um, you know, she she said, "Well, you know, I haven't heard him." 'Cause she had stayed at home, right. "Well," she says, "something really has changed in him."
Q: Let's cut. That was great.
MARKER.
FOUR.
Q: Was any other national leader saying what Malcolm was saying at the time?
to downplay um uh Malcolm whenever they
could.
Q: Now, uh Malcolm's uh position on self- defense, how did you interpret that? And did it make sense to you? Did it make sense to your community?
Malcolm's position on on um on self-defense, I heard, I think, on the nightly news, at one point during uh, in the middle of the hubbub that was going on in Cambridge, and uh I heard what later was not reported was that if if people, if the
government was not going to protect people in
this country, then according to the
Constitution of this country, you had a right
to self-defense, in terms of your home and
property and et cetera. And of course, the
press turned that around to say, well, and I
think Elijah Mohammed fed into that, too, and
talked about gun clubs, and and and that this
wasn't uh, you know, they said he was
preaching violence and whatnot,
people were giving him. Uh, and so I think he fed into that, also, because he had sent someone to me and said, you know, stay off the platform with him, because he's advocating gun clubs, and he's in danger of being killed and et cetera.
Q: Now, what what is the reaction of SNCC leaders to your supporting...?
Hahaha ! My re- uh ... In the meantime, I um, during the self- defense uh speech and the roar around Malcolm's saying that, uh I got a call from from uh James Foreman in um in Atlanta, from the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, and to ask me if that was really what I wanted to do, and if I was really, 'cause SNCC at that point was still totally--
I'VE GOTTA CUT HERE. SORRY.
Q: OK, fine. They're not gonna know what, if, what that is, the support of uh--
BLACKSIDE PRODUCTIONS, INC. TAPE #7 MALCOLM X INTERVIEW WITH GLORIA RICHARDSON CR190-191, SR94
THIS IS UH BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X, SHOW NUMBER EIGHT HUNDRED, CAMERA ROLL ONE-NINETY, SOUND ROLL NINETY-FOUR, CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH GLORIA RICHARDSON.
FIVE.
Q: What what is uh the reaction of some SNCC SNCC leaders to your support of Malcolm on self-defense, and did you think their opinion might change?
what did I think about this speech. Because
in fact, most of the press had been in and
out of Cambridge, and they knew what was
going on in Cambridge. And of course, I
supported what he said. And and shortly after
that, then then SNCC uh, from the Student
Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, some of
the leadership there called me to ask me what
did I think I was doing, and wasn't this
dangerous, and (unintel) because the SNCC was
very uh, at at that time had, was totally
position, or to at least a modification of
that position. And of course, some time
later it did, and they, in fact, met with
Malcolm,
Q: And how does that affect, also, the support, in terms of the financial support for you?
When, when, uh, after SNCC uh
called, and I had that heated discussion with
with uh, with them, then the meat-packers'
union had been had been supporting us in
Cambridge, and uh with some money, not a lot,
but it was a lot for us then, because it made
for us to keep its offices open. So they
sent their uh liaison person into Cambridge
to talk to me and tell me that I had to,
Q: And how did you interpret--
Q: --asked you how you interpreted the Ballot or the Bullet speech and whether you agree with it. OK. How did you interpret Malcolm's Ballot or the Bullet Speech, and did you agree with it?
Malcolm used to um, had a format in his speeches that that we call the Ballot or the Bullet speech. And he was, he had gone and presented that speech, uh, in various places around the country. At about the same time, uh, some people from the North and myself had formed a organization called ACT, and uh...
Q: I'm gonna actually get into that--
OK.
Q: So if you could just start again and just mention that he had done this thing with--
Ok, he'd done about--
Q: --your opinion of it.
OK. OK. He'd done this,
alright.
lives, um, to any great extent. And so uh I
thought it was very powerful speech.
Q: Did you see, um, Malcolm's that speech by Malcolm as a support, in some ways, of the vote as a as an initial--
Well, I think maybe he was try-
he was trying to, I think that uh if uh, I
think that Malcolm, because he posed both uh,
basis for that, or else you're going to have uh uh outbreaks of of of riots and and and whatever else that goes along with that.
Q: OK, let's cut. That's great.
Q: OK. Um ... OK, I'm just going to ask you to do-- (audio cuts out here]
MARK IT.
SEVEN.
Q: Um, tell me about the person that the Nation sends to tell you to stay off the platform with Malcolm.
Around the time that um Malcolm had started uh getting in trouble with the Nation, uh, for whatever their reasons were. I think he'd made a speech about the chickens that come home to roost, with the in terms of
the of the plane of a plane crash. Um, also, I think, in terms of the Kennedy (unintel)?
Q: Yeah. As a matter of fact, don't even worry about, 'round the time that they say the chickens come home to roost.
OK. OK. Do me back. Where was I? When uh ...
Q: (unintel)
Oh around around the time um
whe- uh that Malcolm was making the the uh
remarks about the chickens had come home to
roost, um, apparently, for some reason which
I th- a lot of us were just totally amazed
that Elijah Mohammed decided to take offense
Q: If you could just start again, and just mention around the time of the chickens, and then go on to ...
Oh, OK. OK?
Q: Now, how did you interpret the visit?
Well, and when he came, when
when I it was very puzzling to me, because,
as I said, I would've expected Elijah
Mohammed not to care about his chickens come
home to roost, nor about the the um the um
thing about the gu- the uh self- defense. But
subsequently, in in about a year and a half
after that, I did understand it, because I
Q: Could you just that again, and just say that um, 'cause the ignorant aren't gonna understand uh that. What did you think Elijah was telling you? What was the message he gave you?
Alright. When he, when um when the guy came from Baltimore and said that he was coming from Elijah Mohammed, and to stay off the platform with Malcolm and what and whatnot, I I thought he was saying to me that I that that I, oh, he did say I may be shot,
I may be killed. And uh, because that's the only, you know, that's the only reason. To me, that was totally ridiculous at the time. Subsequently, I rethought that incident, in you know, in terms of what happened later.
Q: Um, can you give me a sense of what qualities you most remember about Malcolm?
uh patterns that went into that were very well-informed.
Q: What do you think Malcolm's legacy is?
while with (unintel)
Q: CUT.
ROLLING.
EIGHT.
African Leaders here in historic Cairo. The
Which one, this one?
THE NEXT ONE. THE NEXT ONE.
Oh, OK.
sight to behold. El Haj Mulique, El
Shabbaz." And I guess maybe he thought I
wouldn't know who that was, so in
parentheses, he has 'Malcolm X.'
GET THE SLATE. AND MARKER ...
NINE.
ONE SECOND, PLEASE. OK, (UNINTEL)
SHE DIDN'T LOOK AT ME ENOUGH. LOOKED OVER HERE.
Oh, dear.
THAT'S OK.