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TAKE ONE

TAKE TWO --

Q: Describe your father (unintel)

recall my father uh talking to us about Garveyism -- that was all from my mother. [My mother is the one who would read to us the Garvey Paper which was called the Negro World. She also would talk to us about ourself as being independent. We shouldn't be calling ourselves negroes or niggers and that we were black people and that we should be proud to call ourselves black people.] I remember that from the day I was born it seems -- from my mother.] I never remember my father talking to us like that. [My mother was the teacher. She was the cook. She was the instructor. She was the housekeeper and uh, and you have to remember the days that we were talking about. We're talking about in the 20s and 30s. And uh, so that was the discipline that I came up under] ...

Q: What does it mean in the 20s and 30s to be kind of an independent mind uh thinking black people ...

my mother because and [my father because they didn't ... he didn't believe in uh ... uh ... just always going out to kiss the boots of the slavemaster. He was always working to get away from that to be on his own that I remember and my mother didn't tolerate us being treated as a negative or treating us as subhuman. She she told us that we were black people. She told us we came from great people that were one-time rulers, that owned great, great uh vineyards and so-on. I came up ... I was in my 20s before I realized that uh, she was raising us you know -- that I couldn't look forward to going to their vineyards and things like that. Uh, [my mother was uh very educated si-, education- conscious, much more so than my father because she taught us our uh ... our math, our arithmetic. She taught us to add and subtract before we ever went to school. She taught us the alphabet -- to sing songs. She ... she would tell us that in her country that when we start ... when we sing, we should sing in the alphabet and learn the

alphabet -- this is the way we learned our alphabet.

Q: Now with that in mind, uh, what did it mean for your family to move out .. . outside of the city limits, out uh .. . outside of the black community down by the uh airport?

Q: Now tell me ... tell me about that ... take yourself back ...

Q: ... um to the fact that ... talk about that ... the day the house was burned -- what happened that day?

and couldn't find Yvonne. So she got rather hysterical looking for Yvonne and she ... Yvonne was discovered on the front porch while the house was burning. The house burned down to the ground -- no firewagon came -- nothing and we were burnt out.] Uh, [I recall uh, some white folks down the street letting us come to their store, then from there we went to another black family's house and my father went from there to the East side of Lansing, uh, hillbilly heaven and they stoned us -- everyday they stoned our house until you could actually push your fist through the wall, they had sto-, thrown so many stones.]

Q: Let me get ... I wane get you there first ... who in your mind out there and what do you remember hearing from people uh, whisper stuff ... who ... who did you consider ... who did you think burnt your house ... how'd your house burn?

took a shot at somebody who uh, he said was running away from the house and they arrested my father and put him in jail because he shot at that person. And uh my father was ... I understood the discussion in the house that somebody had set ... thrown gasoline or something all over the kitchen and lit it and it blew up and when it blew up it woke my mother up. When it awakened her, she got us outta the house, otherwise we would've all been cremated right there in that house.

Q: So then your fam-, your father then decided to buy land out in uh ...

Q: On Logan Road uh, buy four acres of land. Why? What (unintel)

been satisfied to live any place but out in the country because that was his experience. And out there we could raise our own chickens, we could raise our own food. We could raise our own garden and he built our own house. Now the first ... it was six acres involved. Uh, [my father bought uh three acres and moved in but the three acres that he moved in on was next to three acres that we actually were paying for. So [he uh, built our own house on the three acres that we bought and we moved over in that house and he ... he drove a well, we had our water we had our own home. We raised chickens -- a Good thousand chickens every spring. Uh, and we sold chickens. We ate chickens. We had cow. We had goat. We had geese and then my father contracted to um sharecrop with the Hungarian farmer just adjacent to us.] And we would raise crops, hoe that field and weed all that stuff out and then when the came the time to harvest, this Hungarian farmer, his boys would slip over and take the crops and then when we'd go to pick 'em and share them, we never did get our share. Yeah. But that was

typical. Uh, this is not something that uh, uh, human being was doing to another human. It was a human being doing it to nothing. Good And we were considered the nothing but my father didn't tolerate that. He ... he straightened that out very quickly and uh ... he at that time uh, was working in the foundry . . . I think it's the Noble Foundry in Lansing, Michigan and he was a ... also he raised those chickens and we also raised crops ... all at one time ...

Q: How about uh ... so the family seemed to be um ... in terms of power structure and ... were uppity ... your father ... talk to be me about your father's death ... what happens?

bed we would all fgather around the stove and my mother would tell us stories or we would sing our ... our uh, alphabets or we would sing our um, you know math like that one and yes- one is one -- two and two is two, like this good- ... and then uh, she taught us French we would ... could sing in French and uh, then she would tell us stories about our ancestry.] And uh, my father was uh he would come in -- he would go out many times to collect for chickens that had been sold that we didn't ... hadn't ... didn't receive the money for and uh, he would uh ... pick ... uh, look around the yard to make sure that the chickens were in and make sure that there were no weasels that had gotten into the chicken house. I remember this very well because it's ... the job fell to me you see and he broke me on it, and so, after a while, I was the one that had to do that -- had to bring in wood for the fire. Had to bank the fire in the winter time so that it would go out overnight. It would ... you know you would bank it with cinders and uh, so it

would burn all night or stay warm and the next morning you'd just ...

Q: What happened when he first ... when your father died? What did ... what did that (unintel)

Q: [Misc] Good ... you're a natural storyteller.

THIS WILL BE CAMERA ROLL 32 -- TAKE TWO -CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH ABDUL OMAR

Q: ... he was a very (unintel) outspoken and uh, and he think how to say it with one of those words -- that kind of look and that kind of you know, way of saying like you know

... you know ... one of those could be trouble you know ... but you know what that means ... and he's not like the other people ...

TAKE THREE --

Q: People DESCRIBED your father as the kind of the person ... strong willed ... have an opinion, how does he compare to the other people, the black people (unintel)

vehemently as ... as probably today they would do ... but he would try to always jar the thinking of the black man. And is scared a lot of them because they were satisfied to go to school and get ... to get a diploma and come out and work for Mr. White Man. They were satisfied. It was nothing to hear one Good of them bragging about being a ... a bootshiner down at the Holes Hotel. That was nothing. And they thought ... and they most highly thought and high ... highly respected a black man in Lansing was a shoe ... boot ... shoeshiner. And they were always had a smile for the white man and had very little patience with the uh black man.] [Black, the word black woulda got you killed. If you'd called them black, they woulda killed you.]- And uh ...[at that time . . . my father uh ... was a Garveyite, I understand and um, [my mother was adamant about our being black people, not negroes -- she didn't like that at all. Even with our school teacher, she had a problem with that. She told them that we are black children. We're not uh negro

children.] And uh, she ran into problem with that.]-

Q: Now tell me about with your father's death ... what did you run into ... what what ... what is the circumstance around that? What is he in ... what are some of the (unintel)

Q: Start me off by telling me how your father died?

bedroom to clean up and to go down and collect money. And she woke up and she said Earl, Earl, don't go downtown. She says if you go you won't come back. And so my father said, "Oh, Louise, get away." And she said, "Earl, please don't go." But he left, and went on down to collect uh, some money ... Good story chicken money you know and uh ... which was on the north side of Lansing. And uh, my mother ... and we all naturally we were around the house ... we talked ... and finally went to bed, and late that night, somebody banged on the door and my mother screamed, she said, "Earl" like this you see. And uh, the police said Ear-, Louise Little, your husband has been injured. Would you come and go with us please. And so, they took my mother down to the Spero(?) Sparrow Hospital and my father was dead. They claimed he lived two-and-half hours after he had been run over. But when she got there he was dead.]

Q: What was ... what is the circum-, what were the circumstances ... what did people believe about this?

pump the water and bring it in the house and all this ... this was while Dad was alive because to not do this brought the consequence of a whipping. So were disciplined and uh, ... it it was a smooth-operating family. Everybody knew what they had to do and did it. And we were under check. And uh then after my father got killed and my mother's inability to run as fast as I could run or Malcolm or Wilfred, or ... or Hilda uh, en-, enabled us to get away with a lot of things we wouldn't have tried to get away with and if we got away with it, as long as we could avoid getting spanked by her, there was no one to spank us.] So we got looser and looser.] We were not as tight as we would have been.] [Malcolm and I were full of mischief. Young boys just coming along, just finding out uh, how far we could spit really. And uh ... all of our ... uh, acquaintances and associates were white people -- white boys. And they're full of the devil. You see where they had the nerve to ... to not go home from school or they had the nerve to go home and then leave and come

back over to our house to create mischief. We didn't have that kind of nerves you know ... we had been trained to come home. And we had been trained to stay in our own yard and to hoe in the garden and all this. Well, we weren't as punctual as we had started out with my father in hoeing the garden. We weren't as punctual as we were in picking up the chickens and doing these kinda things. So naturally these things went lacking.]

Q: How ... how did those things begin to impact the family and say the uh ... the relief people who started coming to the house?

they would do these kinds of things you know and ... during that period. And that's where ... we had our own garden, and we had our chickens and things like this. And my mother at the same time was uh, in a shock -- a shock in the sense that she's West Indian and she wasn't familiar with a lot of things and she never tried to give somebody a whipping because she just didn't want to. And my father was her ... her god as you might say. My father was her strength. But when he was gone, it just left her without anyone to call to or anyone to talk to and to se-, to see after her. White people would come around ... there were a lot of French-speaking people out there -- they'd come and they would talk French all day long. They were fascinated with her ability to speak French and Spanish and they were fascinated ... she was a very beautiful lady and uh, she ... her ability to conduct a conversation and take care of business. So what happened was um, Malcolm and I and not only Malcolm but Reginald -- but Reginald, however, was not uh, as (unintel) as we were because Reginald

had a hernia -- born with a hernia -- bad hernia. And uh, so that limited his going ... and we all sought to look after Reginald because he had that hernia. [Malcolm and I ran together because uh we just were exploring the world as you might say -- going in the fields and walking in the fields and not ... not raising havoc but just not at home taking care of business.] And so this is the way we were ... my mother became uh ... more and more withdrawn,] uh, she ... her friends were not friends that you might call ... wane take on responsibility to help you and uh most of her friends at the time were West Indian people just like herself ...

Q: What did uh your mother ... having another child had to do with ... did he end up (unintel)

of telling you stories and sing and speaking French all the time to the children, she ... that was gone. And uh, she was uh uh seemed like always reprimanding us ... Malcolm and me and Reginald and trying to keep the things together. And uh, after a while it ... it got outta a hand. So what she did ... she started shar, um, renting some of the land to people to farm. And uh, then uh, uh, her friends, I would say friends uh, meaning West Indians who would come to the house, they were very limited because one family did not have a car. And so they had to wait till another family would come out. So, they'd come out maybe once every two weeks and so on. And uh, uh, this guy that came out and uh met my mother which is really uh, it had to be like that because my mother was anti- social in the sense of letting people around the house. Anyway, this is the way that thing happened. And uh, when the baby was born uh they just took him from my mother. It wasn't a matter of that ... they were gone sit down and talk with her about so and so. They decided themselves that they were gone

take him 'cause she was not able to raise him. And uh and up until that time, my sister Hilde and Mrs. Doan who was a neighbor, they were the ones involved in ... in ... in taking care of the baby and taking care of my mother and seeing to it ... helping her with her thing. Now if the friends ... if she had had friends of the ...

Q: Did you feel that the family was being, that there was a level of harassment going on towards the family -- (unintel) people or neighbors?

in there. But they weren't those kinda friends.

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TAKE FOUR --

this. And then we used to uh ... uh, buy a hundred-pound bag of day-old bread for five cents at Old Castle's Bakery in Lansing, Michigan but that's ... day-old bread actually was about a month old. And my mother knew how to fix it ... she would take it and ... and uh, cutoff the uh mole and she used to put sugar on it or like that and put · it in the oven and soften it -- put water on it softened it up and we ate like it was the last supper. You see ... we enjoyed that ... a bunch of children and uh, all along with this you see there was the problem as in retrospect, I know now that we were the problem -- the children because we was always running away from home, over here into this field into that field doing this thing and doing that thing and at the same time, I had come into boxing. I ... I didn't know anything about boxing. Joe Louis at that time was on the scene, and I felt proud that they said I was a boxer and I also was picked up by white people uh, as there was no black people out there and uh, they figured they ... really prostituted me because they had me

fighting everything. I fought man weighed two-hundred pounds, two-hundred and fifty ... there was a guy by the name of Rogers weighed two-twenty -- I fought him all this time ... all these people I was fighting and uh ... so I ... at same time I was beginning to expand myself in the sense of going out in the neighborhood, go, running around here and there, and I was going to high school. I wouldn't ... I would hit hitch a ride every morning with my sister and I ...

Q: So in terms of ... you're boxing ... is the rest of the family ... Malcolm also away from the family as well ...

for her and ... and she would ride. Then after a while, it got to the place where the people who gave us a ride, she would know them. She would ride with them. Otherwise she wouldn't ride.

Q: So what does the family uh ... what does the family work out for (unintel) what is that?

black people and uh they'd play around. He ran into this one guy and they would play on they playground -- at that time Lincoln Community Center was just being established and there was a lady by the name of Mrs. uh, Majors that was in charge and she didn't like Malcolm because he was so forthright you see and uh, he would talk back to her] and all this and ... naturally that upset her and she wanted to subdue him. And they kept getting into it. So finally, she called the police and the police came and the police took Malcolm and uh made him ... the court made him a ward of the state and he lived with Mrs. Gohana, uh, and he ran around with Mrs. Gohana's son, who was David and they ran around in the playground quite a bit and he kept getting into trouble with Mrs. Major, who was the head of that playground. They couldn't hit it off at all. And she'd say Malcolm, Malcolm, Malcolm and Malcolm would just really sass her and embarrassed, she couldn't move ... he could move -- full of mischief too. [So one day, she called the police and they got after Malcolm and ... and

uh, they took M-Malcolm over to ... back to Mrs. Gohana, and Mrs. Gohana uh-h was put in charge of Malcolm. Malcolm went back into the playground and hit Ms. Major with his fist in her rump. She was about four feet across -- hit her ... and so naturally they arrested him -- took him to uh Ma-Mason, Michigan. And when they took him to Mason, Michigan he was put into a ... and made a ward of the state in the hands of a white lady, a Mrs. Swerling.] And uh at the same time, I was uh boxing -- I was making good money 'cause I got five dollars a round for winning and I fought every place 'cause everybody wanted to see that little black thing fight you see. And uh, also I um uh, I got a job by ... by some Jewish people who owned the Shuman Style Shop. I went to work for them cleaning that place and then finally they moved me into their home to clean their home.

Q: I think at this point is uh ... the others ... are the others ... the other kids split off (unintel)

Q: Now tell me in Mason how ... how is Malcolm doing?

head of his class. He was outstanding, in fact.] And he showed a lot of ambition to go ... and he liked that because there was a time for special attention to Malcolm because he was black and they gave it to him and he uh ... started washing dishes in the kitchen and after awhile he became head ... class president. And then he got so he would bring those white boys uh, to Lansing ... they had ... his ... their fathers' car ... he could come to Lansing and go around ... showoff and then he would go back to ... to Mason. [In the interim, my sister Ella visited us and uh she went to Mason to meet Malcolm and when they sat and talked and she met him, she uh, made an agreement with Malcolm that he could come to Boston after the ... at the end of the semester and he looked forward to that you see] and so um ...

Q: That's how he went to Boston?

Q: Did you have much contact with Malcolm once he went to Boston?

back to Boston and then the next time he came, he was uh, more adroit as you might say. [Malcolm wanted to show that he was in control of things. Everything we knew about him, he told it himself. He told about he was called in ... in in Boston, they called him New York Red and in New York they called him Detroit Red. He had has his crockonoed(?) conked you know ... it was red and he had pictures of him and Billy Holliday and all these people at that time out there who were just being made known to the rest of the black world] and uh .. um, so then after that he went on back into ... back to uh Boston and [the next time he came, he was coming out of New York and he was uh working on the train, uh, you know as a waiter and uh he was uh ... he was really out there trying to talk like he was a bad guy] ... he uh ...

Q: Was Malcolm really a bad guy?

[Everybody who knows Malcolm would tell you, he was a good man. And this is even before he came into Islam. He was a good man. He was not vulgar. He did not use vulgarity. And he uh was not disrespectful of your rights, this kind of a thing. He would brag ... he was a braggadocio and he would brag about what he had done and this and that but he hadn't ... it hadn't been that bad. He was just knew how to tell it so that it sounded as though he had been a bad guy -- he was a gang leader. But he was no gang leader he didn't have no gang.] Then uh, so he went on back to Boston -- you see like that.

Q: How ...how did you feel when you heard that he had uh ... he was arrested (unintel)

Q: (Unintel)

living in Lansing at that time -- I had left the house on ... on South Logan and I was living on the ...

ALL RIGHT TAKE FIVE ...

Q: Tell me about uh ... uh, Malcolm uh ... (unintel)

something. And uh, uh, Malcolm hurt his leg very bad and ... and so he left me and went to Wilfred in Detroit. And then he left Wilfred and went to ... back to Massachusetts. When he went back there, he got arrested for a robbery with this group and was put in prison. Now that's ... all I can recall about his ... his being arrested.

Q: Did you communicate with him in prison?

had very low tolerance for religion and I didn't intend to lose that tolerance, and so then after that uh, my sister who'd come to Detroit and had been converted, she went to Boston and also my brother Reginald had gotten converted in Lan-, in Detroit and went OK! to Boston. And when he saw Reginald had given up smoking and had uh talking right and talking a whole different kind of language that ... that really shocked him. And then uh, he ... my sister began to talk to him in her very subtle way -- Hilda. And then from this you see, and ... Bertha, Wilfred's other wife who died told him that he should get in touch with Elijah Muhammad, and right so he started a correspondence with him and uh, that's the way ... that he came into Islam.]

Q: Now tell me whe-, in 1946, when you joined the Nation, describe the Nation of Islam at that point? What's it like?

place eh, eh, the place was ... was owned by a numbers man but Wilfred ... he operated that -- the place for him. And [when one day Wilfred came in and he said to me that um, he said, I'd like you to go ... for you to go with me this evening some place there's a speaker coming into town.] I said, fine and uh, I went. And when I went, it was down on st. Antoine's Street. Right down in the bottom of Detroit. And there was about uh, maybe fifteen, twenty people there and they were all older people and uh, the speaker came forth and all he did was just recite some of the lessons Moes Batchat(?) was his name. So then uh after the meeting I said to Wi-, my brother Wilfred, I said, boy what was that. And he said, well he says we was expecting the speaker and the speaker didn't come. He says, I'll let you know when the speaker's coming. And we went on. Now how much time elapsed I don't know. I was maybe ... maybe two three months but then he contacted me and told me we have a special speaker coming. [So I went with him to the temple and that was on a Sunday. We got there and Elijah Muhammad

was supped to come. He had just gotten out of prison. And he wasn't supposed to leave Chicago but he slipped into Mi-, into Detroit but on the way his car broke down in Jackson, Michigan and he couldn't get to uh the temple. So after the meeting we ... I went to Wilfred's house of course and then Elijah Muhammad came in and he was sorry that the was late and all and said but if you come back Sunday and tell the people a man who's been dead for three days will be there speaking.] And the one who brings the most lost founds (unintel) will get a prize a prize -- and I got the prize. And the way I did that I uh would um ... leave home, go into the ... and get on the trolley and uh, uh, look up to see a girl smiling you know I'd go and sit with her ... and say where you going and entice off the trolley, say come on go with me, I'm gone take you to this place. And I would take her to the temple and leave her there and go get some more you see. And that's how I won the prize. [NO His subject was manifestation and defects. I remember I sat right in the aisle and uh ... his uh ... it

was the scriptural knowledge that I had really that attracted me to him because as he spoke to me he was speaking right out of prophecy and he was really interpreting what I ... uh, understood it from -- that was being fulfilled and so I thought he was the fulfillment of what was prophecized for that day and time. Yeah uh ... that he was to be the leader -- the teacher. He was the like the first begotten of the dead. See. I understood that and when I looked at him, it just looked like I could see that and boy that drew me to him.]-NO

Q: We-were you attracted to his um ... his ... his ... also his ideas about that uh self-improvement?

are in The Bible from Genesis to Revelations. But by the so-called American Negro not knowing who he is, he reads all about himself and doesn't realize that it's him. He said we're the dead in The Bible -- we're the uh ... uh, blind that can't see. We're the dumb Good- that can't talk. We're the lame that can't walk. And the first one that is raise from among us is that one that would be the doorway for the rest of the dead. After the first one is raised, the rest will raise. Brother that was just like music to me.] But I had scriptural knowledge, so I don't know how many understood it in that light but that's where I ... and so I followed him that evening from the rostrum out to Wilfred's house and I just kept looking at him you know like you would and I asked him, I said, "Do you mind if I ask you a question?" And he said, "No." ... help ... let me ... uh that's why I'm here ans-, to answer your questions ... so he ... he ... held one knee in his hand like this and he was sittin' on the piano stool and I was standing up over him and he ... I said, the Book says that

when he comes, that he will open the Book and loose the fields thereof. He said that's right brother. That's right. That's what I was doing today. And that told me ... that just wrapped me up ... you see. NO[ So in my mind I was looking at the man that was prophecized to come and do the work that he was talking about. ]NO He ... he explained ... he ... he ... he dealt with the scripture key things you see. He said The Bible ... mnunmmhm

Q: Tell me um, when uh, um, Malcolm comes out of prison, he's been talking to ... you know his family's talking to him what ... what ... what is the um ... Elijah Muhammad came out and talked with him ...

Q: St-start again ... tell me Malcolm ...

can get is another Caucasian. But you take a Asiatic, any one of those four, and they carry the ger-, two germs -- one for lighter ones and one for darker ones. Then he said you started the history of the earth you were fine. That uh, we're the ones fulfill that ... fulfill that pro-, uh, that uh, history of strangers in the land that is not ours.

Q: So when he was ... so Malcolm ... was Malcolm ... is taken by this?

Q: Is there ... is there a kind of a uh ... uh, a black theology that's also part of that ... we are the chosen people, that we are um ... uh, ...

Q: ... the kind of reverse psychology behind us here ... even with our inferiority complex -- is that part of it?

Q: OK, but bring it back to this whole idea of ... of how it begins to ... our own inferiority complex ...

Q: And that was the feeling ...

THIS IS SOUND ROLL 17 -- CAMERA ROLL 35 -- BLACKSIDE'S PRODUCTION OF MALCOLM X -- PROJECT NUMBER 800 -- ROLLING AT 7 1/2 IPS AND CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH OMAR ABDUL -- TAKE SIX WILL BE UP --

Q: Talk to be me about uh ... you said your family represents a new people -- Malcolm represents a new energy ... tell me about that?

were. Uh, but we had a lot of stigma on us because some of the old believers that were still lost in uh ... a misunderstanding, uh, were not able to get to people and they thought the teachings were something that should be hush-hush.] And so [when Malcolm came out, he was full o' fire. He'd gotten so full o' fire that he got out at the right time and the right place, so he could expound. He came to Detroit, he was surprised to find there were such few people Good in this powerful teaching in his mind. Because he had a locked-in audience in prison and all that. So what happened he uh, got in front of the podium and he told them that uh ... I'm ashamed ... he says I'm surprise he said, that you are sitting here and so many empty seats. He said every time you come out here, he says this place should be full. And that excited the Honorable Elijah Muhammad -it excited the believers who had any energy. And we got visit the younger people -- bringing in people, just hundreds of them.] And [Malcolm couldn't uh, leave Detroit because he was on parole but eh ... the day

he got off parole, he went to Chicago and he stayed with the Honorable Elijah Muhammad about a week and then the Honorable Elijah Muhammad sent him to uh Boston uh, yeah, Boston for and uh, there he started teaching.]

Q: And how ... how quickly did the Nation begin to start growing?

Q: ... when ... when Malcolm started ... moved to Boston and started you know moving around ...

taught and just filled it up -- every place he went, he set up a temple in Philadelphia ... he went to Washington ... a temple that had been established -- just sittin' around there waitin' for the end to come I guess but Good he got after them ... first thing you know they were grew ... out of their bounds. They all had to go get new temples.]

Q: What is this growth doing to the ... the Nation that you don't hear of in Chicago?

it expanded ... eh- FOI -- [The Fruit of Island. It expanded and we had to have more qualified people to work with the FOI. FOI class -- th-the brothers that had been headin' it were old brothers and they were locked in yesterday. So new brothers were given post and positions. And they began to treat ... uh, train the people and also teach them uh what you call a military discipline and the primary purpose there was to teach us all to work together] behind the ... one voice] and to obey instructions and to do just like we were told. That was the primary purpose there. So [we did calisthenics. We did karate. We'd do judo -- all these kinda stuff that builds the individual up. We were also given hygiene -- how to take a bath every day. And how not to eat -- not to eat the pork and how to cook our food done and how to treat our wives properly] and [in the meantime sisters were put into a woman's class which was called the MGP T and GCC. And in there they taught 'em how to sew -- how to cook -- how to treat their husbands -- how to raise their children and in general how to

act at home and abroad. That was the purpose of that class. And so it uh ... naturally the brothers and the sisters begin to shine like new money -- they had taken on a new life.] And everybody that came out was impressed if not for any other reasons by what they saw ... and uh, and that's the way ... we ... we grew ...)

Q: As young people in in ... you're watching change?

Q: Forties and the fifties -- what vision do you have and what ... what is the vision that people have for this -- and they developed in the long-run?

them -- leave them alone. Just give 'em back everything they gave to you, like whiskey, wine, beer and get uh, learn how to take care of your own homes, and your own family, and he says Ala will destroy them -- you don't have to touch them -- A~a will destroy them. In fact about it, he had to admonish Malcolm many times about that ... that ... because Good Malcolm when he really got going it ... you'd thought he had an army in the backroom to come and get you. And he told him, "Malcolm uh, we're not gone fight this Caucasian. We are going to clean up -- Ala will destroy the Devil."]-

Q: Tell me in ... in a ... you know the Civil Rights Movement's going on -- there is a kind of activism -- fervor that's taking place in this country -- how does the Nation find it ...

Q: ... find a place within all of that ...

Q: Speaking about um ... Malcolm and ... and Elijah Muhammad reprimanding him -- (unintel) effort to move the Nation and more active and so -- how ... how is the Nation itself reacting to ... like the LA Mosque

continually talking with these people of civil-rights-minded people, he became more civil-rights minded and uh, Malcolm begin to talk less and less about God was going to kill the and get rid of the Caucasians and he began to talk about how we were gone be able to go into court and bring them to justice and make them guilty and that they are guilty according to the law of the land which was not our argument at all. Our argument was that we were a divine people and that we would be protected and finally delivered, put in the seat of authority by Allah. That was our teaching at that time.]

Q: Were ... were you seeing in the Nation as (unintel) some ... some of those who were kinda following your minds (unintel) ... were they rumbling but then make you (unintel)

people who were professional quality -- they were capable of handling administrative work. And uh, so ... Malcolm was responsible probably for most of them or if not all of them.] And uh, naturally it had to be because we were moving so fast. [We were growing in leaps and bounds, thousands and thousands of people. Money had increased ten-thousand percent and there had to be someone there that knew how to organize it -- somebody who knew how to take care of it -- somebody who knew how to you know clock it in -- identify it. And these people, most of them came from Malcolm through Chicago] as the headquarters was one -- naturally uh, the late -- [the Honorable Elijah ... [the late Honorable Elijah Muhammad he got uh, less and less busy. When I say that, he was very busy until the great growth train came. When the great growth came and expansion while there was uh ... uh ... he had more time to himself. He had more time to do what he had to do -- he wasn't involved with the mechanics of the business.]

Q: What's uh ... you said that the um ... what ... how ... how did this whole idea of the world family --

family ... eh giving them a ... you know ... what they really wanted to do ...

Q: (Unintel)

SPEEDING -- TAKE SEVEN --

Q: Why (unintel)

get rid of the X -- getting rid of the X involved not just getting rid of the X per se, but it also mean you ... you no longer was a drinker ... you no longer was a smoker -- you no longer practiced adultery and fornication -- so you were EX all those things that were negative. You were ex-no more of those things that kept you down and now you qualified to strengthen yourself as a ... uh, servant of God. So we became X. I became Philbert X at the time.] Naturally when you have post like I had ... I had a minister's post. In order to sign documents, the papers -- you have to have a name. So Elijah Muhammad permitted us to take names. I took the name at that time of Shah and then I moved from that name to the name of uh Omar ... uh that is Philbert Shah and then I went to Omar and then finally to Abdul Aziz Omar.

Q: Now you were ... you were talking to me before ... for a ... you were talking about the growth of the Nation and uh ... do you remember the ... the (unintel) New York (unintel) Temple there and (unintel)

Q: What happened to them ... Malcolm then ... in ... in the Nation as well suddenly finds (unintel) from the national program of the Nation of Islam ...

Q: But it's the same how they'd done Malcolm also ... they're item idols(?) for TV -- TV filtered them out. How is that ... how is that beginning to work within the Nation?

himself. They wanted him to speak. So and so and so as opposed to saying the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said so and so and so and so. But NO[ that was Malcolm's protection. He always put the Honorable Elijah Muhammad out front and uh, therefore, he ... and he became uh, very ... they ... they desired him greatly for speaker and colleges and in ... and in different debates and so on. ]NO Particularly in the East Coast and then he uh ... after that he was begin to attract attention abroad. At the same time, NO[ there were factions getting to Malcolm uh with Orthodox Islam, were trying to tell him what you calling Islam is not Islam. They were trying to tell him you don't have no Islam and Malcolm would counter by telling that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is one for ... to responsible for bringing in a new teacher. See ... and uh, so this was the kind of a thing that was a friendly thing that they were talking about together. Also, at the same time uh, Malcolm was speaking every day. All around the place. And uh, in the place of the Honorable Elijah, Muhammad, uh, or [our family had sparked the growth of

the Nation in Detroit ... it was Malcolm who sparked the growth of the Nation all over the country.] He was in demand. Nobody was asking for Elijah Muhammad to speak. They were asking for Malcolm to speak]] ... and uh, [naturally Malcolm got more involved with the civil rights struggle. And [his argument became more an argument that you would expect from someone who was in the civil rights struggle than you would for someone who was following the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.]

Q: What was it doing back in Chicago ... back in (unintel) you find in inner circles of the Nation?

energy but the man behind Malcolm was Elijah Muhammad] -- Elijah Muhammad was the one who kept talking to him, telling him how to conduct himself -- telling him what to not to say and all this ... and uh ... and uh ... so that's the way it went ...

Q: How close ... give men an idea of how close the ... the nature of the relationship between Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm -- how close were they? What ... if you were to describe that relationship --

Q: Tell me who you're talking about ... start again ... tell me ...

he would sit and talk with Malcolm about it and how he should conduct himself and how he should be and Malcolm would go back and do it. He felt very secure, very safe because the Honorable Elijah Muhammad had guided him .. had instructed him, but at the same time the Honorable Elijah Muhammad would warn him about how they were ... power was trying to uh, drive a wedge between him and Malcolm and uh he said they'd do that.] And, naturally I said to Malcolm that if you let that happen Malcolm, he doesn't have to worry. The worry is on you.] And uh so uh one thing after the other and with the assistance of uh ... of uh, different people they finally did get a wedge between Malcolm ...

Q: How come ... what began to happen -- when did he begin to obtain his (unintel) wedge ... what ... what ...

to be careful Malcolm, they're trying to drive a wedge between us ... you see you have to be careful Malcolm ... we're not going to fight this devil, he would tell him, you remember that. Malcolm would try to uh ... get him into the place where we could get involved with the Civil rights. He said no, we don't get into that sort of ... say we're not begging this man for anything, just to leave us alone. He said we ... we ... we need to be cleaned up ... he'd take us like we are then ... Afro -- so-called American Negro is not fit to rule himself right now ... he has to be made fit ... you have to clean him up ... take away from him the wine and the whiskey and adultery, and fornication. You have to teach him how to clean his house up and how to clean his body up and how to think right otherwise he can't ... he can't do anything] ...

Q: So what happens ... what happens when uh ... when Malcolm makes the statement about uh, Kennedy's assassination?

Q: Start again ...

to be careful about what you talk about.] But he didn't uh ... admonish him on a ... on a national level only on the local -- to his face. Then when he went uh ... [he had made a ... a uh ... preparation to bring Elijah ... the Honorable Elijah Muhammad to uh ... uh, New York for a big speech and Kennedy interi- had been assassinated, so he told Malcolm we'll call the meeting off. We won't have -good story- it. And Malcolm pleaded him that we should continue with the meeting. He said if you let me continue with that meeting as we have invested a lot money, he says, I won't say anything about Kennedy. So the Honorable Elijah Muhammad told him that he could go ahead with it but he said be sure you don't say anything about the uh, late President. He said he's well-loved and people ... it would not rest well with the people. So Malcolm went and they had went through that whole program never said anything about the President until after he was leaving the arena and a reporter ask him what was it and Malcolm said it's just a case of the chickens coming home to roost and before he got home,

they blew that thing way out of proportion and it made it look real nasty.] So eh, Elijah Muhammad uh ... uh, was in Phoenix. He called ... and he said that ... and he sat Malcolm down and he told him, you can no longer represent us on a national level until a period of ninety days. He left him in charge of the area, the East Coast area and left him on salary, told him to sit down and don't say nothing.

Q: Do you think that Malcolm would be brought back when (unintel)

THIS IS SOUND ROLL 18 -- BLACKSIDE'S MALCOLM X -- CAMERA ROLL 37 -- TAKE 8 -- CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH ABDUL OMAR --

WE'RE READY SIR --

SPEEDING -- TAKE SEVEN -- TAKE EIGHT ...

Q: Did you think ... how did you find out about (unintel) and did you think that he would get out of this and (unintel)

choice since he made a national statement that to correct him on a national level and that's what he did. He said, however, Malcolm is on-, is ... still has his authority. He's still in cha~e of the East Coast. And he's still on salary. And I sat him down to keep quiet. And if he'll keep quiet for ninety days, I'm gone put him back Don't Pull on his post. Then he said, now I don't think ... he said these boys ... these are Malcolm's boys -- not mine -- I don't know these boys ... he's talking about Louis Farrakhan, Yusef Shah, all of Malcolm's help that uh, these boys are writing letters to me telling me things about Malcolm and calling me that if they had anything to say, they should have said it a year ago, instead of now ... but now they're saying these things that uh, because they don't want Malcolm to get back. And they're trying to keep him back. But I don't know these boys, these are Malcolm's boys. But if he'll sit down and keep his mouth shut, I'll put him back on post ... uh, with the same authority or even more than he had before. | And then uh, I

guess about a half an hour later he was go-, uh, in the same conservatio-, conversation, he says, "I don't think that uh ... that uh, he'll be able to make it." And he cited again, the incident of these people calling him with all this garbage. Now at the time I wasn't aware that it was the garbage about the secretary ]NO ...

Q: OK, let's just take that stuff ... OK, talk to me about ... isn't ... this is the time when the whole ... detail the ... in-, information about the indiscretions comes ... comes out right?

Q: Talk to me about that ... what are we talking about?

David sent his captain into the army, the army away so he could have his wife. He said you read there where Noah had his own daughter in incest, that's all in the scripture about the prophets and he said everything that's in that Bible brother, he says, I have to fulfill, that's me. And I have to fulfill everything that's in that Bible, in fact he said this to me so much I think he actually had gone insane with that idea ... notion, but the point was that's what he said.] Now, [Malcolm heard from uh, the uh ... the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's son, Iman Wallestein(?) about the babies and it put Malcolm in shock because he was going like wildfire and he never took time or suspected anything like that was going on] ...

Q: ... start and you say ... he went from (unintel)

Malcolm being protective of Elijah Muhammad told his ministers on the East Coast and authority, the captains, that this stuff is gone come out and when it comes out this is the way you have to protect your leader, you have to tell the people that he have to fulfill what's in the scripture, the same thing that Elijah Muhammad had told me.] So naturally [when Malcolm was sat down, they went back to Elijah Muhammad and said that Malcolm said he was the father of the babies. And that's how that thing got going and they kept it going with John Ali -- John Ali wouldn't let it die. His uh, rapport with the different presses and so on. He made it look like Malcolm was saying all these things and here it was Malcolm was down in Florida with Muhammad Ali at the training camp, not saying anything but, nevertheless, Malcolm got charged with saying these things and got talking ... so, therefore, he was removed. He was just sat down.]

Q: So what the things that ... uh, in ... inner circles, the guy that Malcolm ...

Q: Said Malcolm had brought in ... saying that Malcolm was telling people that Elijah Muhammad had had children ...

Q: Uh, you've got to tell me this because I'm not I ... I don't think it's clear the way you told me this as before.

Muhammad or called home the phone and told John Ali who passed it on to ... to uh, Elijah Muhammad that Malcolm had said so and so and so and the biggest one among them was Farrakhan -- see -- when Farrakhan knew what Malcolm was doing. And so um, uh, Malcolm was taken out o' completely out of authority.]

Q: How did you feel at that point when Malcolm ... was totally silenced ... totally moved his ... when he realizes he is not coming back.

know that the day he decided that he wasn't coming back, that hurt me. I called him and he was at the time ... he had to press o in his home own. And I asked him, I said, Malcolm you do ... you should think carefully before you do what you're doing and um I talked to his wife at the time, I told her, Betty, I said you have to make Malcolm think, Malcolm is the person that needs someone to make him think. If you don't I say he'll end up in trouble.]

Q: (Unintel)

again, Malcolm was the uh leader under Elijah Muhammad. Elijah Muhammad made him the leader. He had no right to judge his leader.] Yet he ... if anything if was through, I thought he should have just said, "Well look, I'm through -- let's forget it."] But, [Malcolm was tied to Elijah. He didn't have a father just like me. And Elijah Muhammad was a father. He was a good man. And uh, so, uh, that hurt Malcolm. There is nothing ever hurt him like Elijah Muhammad dumping him.] And when he came to the realization ...

TAKE 9

but he was like a father. He admonished him. He corrected him.. He financed him. He pushed him. And he protected him even when he made a mistake. He showed him the mistake that he made and then he and then he (unintel) ... so Malcolm had learned to depend on Elijah Muhammad, like greater than a man would pro-, look to his father. And when he ... when Elijah Muhammad set Malcolm down he ... first took it as well, I ... I must have deserved it or he wouldn't have done it. But later he began to think he was right. There was no answer. He couldn't, no way in the world could he even protect contact Elijah Muhammad 'cause it wouldn't go past the head office. They stopped at the offer ... he got it and he never responded. And that put Malcolm in a state-of-mind where he was very depressed.] Uh, he decided uh, later that he would leave the country and go ... and he had been invited by orthodox Muslims -- some very prominent -- very important ones to come and visit them. And so he decided that he would do that. And I thought that was great. I told him that I thought it would be better

that he left the country and stay awhile. [I also told him that he should not try to judge Elijah Muhammad regardless of what he had done because um, it's not your place to judge him ... and I thought that he should leave that alone. And I says uh attrition alone will take care of Elijah Muhammad. And uh, this was all ... often as with an effort to appease him 'cause he was really disturbed and um, so he left and went to Africa and I was glad that he was gone to Africa because I thought that he was getting into trouble. I also knew that they were cooking stuff up back there in the headquarters. I knew the people that were there. I knew what they would do and what they had done. So I didn't wane see my brother hurt.]

Q: What kind of things were going on at ... at this point Elijah Muhammad was (unintel) what was going on ...

Junior and uh ... uh, John Ali, uh Yusef Shah, they would do what they wanted to do and he couldn't stop it 'cause he had actually uh, didn't have that power anymore. If that power had been tested he'd have gone into shock Shah. And so even when Malcolm's death he was ... he didn't realize he had lost the power that he had lost until Malcolm's death when he ... when that happened -- he knew he didn't have any control whatsoever, and not to mention any kind of talk and speak -- he didn't do any speaking -- no talking or anything -- no lectures -- that was all done by his ministers ] - Pull for the ending -- MPH

TAKE 10

Q: So Malcolm offs and goes to Mecca and comes back -- what do you uh ... what do you think about the Malcolm who returns from Africa?

uh, he was talking about uniting the struggle of the African-Americans with the struggles of the darker peoples of the earth -- called the OAU in Africa but the OAAU here in America. [Malcolm came back uh a Muslim -- was called a Suni Muslim and he told the people that "I'm still a Muslim". He says I just don't believe in preaching that stuff that I learned under Elijah Muhammad.] And uh, so he didn't do that but he set up the OAU and he be-, he set up a ... uh, in the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated and the OAU, O-A- A-U was for the purpose of dealing with all peoples who were interested in people. And uh, he uh was after the dignity of the African-American.

Q: (unintel) just setting up a Mosque, Incorporated ... can you tell me, Malcolm was successful doing that from where you sat ...

Q: Start again ...

Q: How about people who (unintel) how did they respond to (unintel)

that Malcolm would get enough power to draw uh, Muhammad's followers away. I don't think that was Malcolm's concern. Malcolm's concern was more or less to sensitize the African-American to their own condition and to tie the success of their struggle to the struggles of all dark peoples of the earth and to take us out of the Supreme Court arguing for rights and take us into the uh, United Nations where we could have a universal appeal against the inhumanities that are perpetrated on us. That was his point. That was his purpose. Uh, they killed him before he did that.

Q: Now during that summer, they'd also ... (unintel)

Q: Involved in the court battle ... wha' do you ... are you (unintel) ... what are your thoughts ...

Q: Why do you think Malcolm ... why did Malcolm (unintel) to the house ... why ... why did he stay there and fight this?

Q: Being his brother and ... and being in the ... you're very ... still ... that level fear yourself when you start seeing violence uh ... uh taken against your brother -- (unintel)

Q: Did you see in your um ... did you feel that in the organization there was a kind of a hype uh, attempt to discredit Malcolm at this point?

Q: Talk about what you see happen ...

Q: You have to take (unintel)

... a death wish because he knew that what he had done ... and he knew the people that he had placed in certain places that they were capable of that and I know that he knew that Elijah Muhammad didn't have no power.]

Q: Why ... why (unintel) why did you (unintel)

spoken against my mother. And it was negative for Malcolm and it was negative against my brother. So I was ... after I read the ... what I read, I realized that uh ... I ... if I had read it ... I wouldn't have read ... uh, read it over the air you see if I had looked at it, I wouldn't have read it over the air. And I asked John Ali about it and he's oh, he says that's just a statement that was prepared for you to read. He said, I know the messenger will be very pleased with the way you read it and that was it.] John left. [Malcolm called me uh, that night or earlier the next morning ... and go on ... what ... what is this you were talking about he says over the ... on the television about me. I told him Malcolm, I ... those were not my words. I read what John Ali gave me to read ... read ... 'cause that is not my words. I never would have spoken about my mother and I never would have spoken anything about that ... like that about you and uh, he said well that goes to show you how they use you. He said, they'll use you for anything.]

Q: So ... so where are you now? When it happens, do you (unintel) ... what did you respond? What did you do?

been played up like that, you see. It was played up by ... liked that ... and so it made it look like I was just ... uh, whatever you call these guys that go against there family and things like that -- never did I do that ... now with any ... Malcolm said he forgave me ... I said I'm sorry Malcolm. I said, I'm very sorry I says ... he said well now you see how they'll use you. I said, yes I do. And uh ... so that never happened again ...]

Q: Soon after that were you ... describe to me where you are at that point ... and how you find ... and how you find out that your brother was ...

Q: Where ... teaching what ...

Minister, he said, I just got ... heard word on the radio that your brother Malcolm had been shot. And I said what? He said I just heard ... so I called my assistant forward to take over. I told the body that uh ... uh, my brother minister Rescu will take over where I leave off -- I'd just got word that my brother had been shot and I would like to go and investigate and I left the podium and went ... came back to Lansing ...]

THIS IS UH, CAMERA ROLL 39 -- SOUND ROLL 19 - - CONTINUATION OF INTERVIEW WITH ABDUL OMAR - - MALCOLM X PROJECT -- 800

TAKE 11 --

the rostrum, the podium -- I called my assistant forward to carry out the meeting and to dismiss it and I went back into the (unintel) department and got my bag and stuff together and went to Lansing -- back home -- to Lansing, Michigan. On the way I learned that Malcolm was dead on the radio. And when I got back into Lansing, there was all kinds of reporters and everybody at my home but uh, they didn't know that I was Malcolm's brother and ... so they were asking me where was Malcolm's brother and I told them I don't know. So they answered it themselves, and said well, he must be gone to New York. So I didn't have to go through all that with them. And uh, so I um ...

Q: After that ... but then you and Brother Wilfred got together?

had a big mouth. And uh, just like they killed his father, they killed him. And that's all ... she ... she is that kind of a speaker. She doesn't just carry on the whole ... a bunch of talk. Then um, I uh, we were just at home ... I didn't call anybody, I just was there thinking about it] ...

Q: Now, not long after that uh ... (unintel)

Q: (unintel)

Q: Did they (unintel)

Q: And you were there?

Q: You're Chica-, so I mean you're in Chicago too ...

Q: OK, tell me about Saviors Day first -- what happens at Savior's Day and where are you during that?

Q: (unintel)

Q: Start with Savior's Day ...

dead -- no man. And that was just brief like that ... and um, my brother made some statements to that effect -- same effect. And then uh that was it. It was over.] We went back to the hotel, we watched the funeral the next day in its totality. Um, I didn't go to New York because I ...

Q: Stop for a second ...

Q: In particular ... what I would like to hear you tell me about is the hotel room -- the ...

MARK IT -- TAKE 12 --

Q: Tell me how you experienced ... how you ...

don't know why my brother didn't go but I was told by Malcolm a few weeks before that that I shouldn't come to New York because the people were hostile there and that he thought they might do me some harm. So I didn't go and then after he was dead, I felt that there was nothing I could do anyway. And uh, so I saw the funeral uh on TV much better than I would have perhaps if I had been there. And uh, there was nothing I could do -- Nothing.] Anything I could have done, I would have done it. And um ... uh, so I observed the funeral. I noticed everybody that was there and they walked passed the funeral and what had gone on and I read rather intensely what the reporters reported about his ... his funeral. Um, [I didn't like the idea that Malcolm was dead. I uh ... I don't think I ever actually saw him being dead. I thought that uh, maybe he would uh get adjusted into what he was trying to do. And I thought his struggle was ... would come into prominence because it was needed. And I thought now that he was free from the Nation of Islam that he would be able to use a language that

would uh ... ge-, better get to the issues. I thought that. I seriously did. And uh, I never dreamed that uh, he would be uh shot down like he was.]

Q: Do you feel that when you went to (unintel) being there and you know there are other speakers speaking ... speaking out ... that um, how do you feel at that point ... how do you deal with that that type of emotion.

said. I know they listened very attentatively when I spoke to see what I would say. And so I ... I made it my point to let them know I didn't appreciate my brother being dead. And I further injected that nobody likes to hear that their brother is dead. And uh, so I didn't give anything that they could make a big thing over but at the same time with me ... it satisfied me that I had let know, I didn't appreciate my brother being dead.

Q: Did you ... (unintel) thinking about what we should do at this point?

Q: ... to understand what you were doing or what you should do or ...

in there. I was preaching righteousness for the African-American. I actually was sold in my heart that what I was talking to the African-Ameri-, American was about ... I ... I know what they had done for me. It had cleaned me up. I saw the thousands and thousands of people that it had cleaned up.] I had thousands and thousands of followers myself that had gotten away from wine- drinking and whisky drinking and adultery and fornication and dope addiction. So I saw this and I saw ... I knew it was good. So I wasn't ever thinking about stopping that ... uh, I had some consternation -- some concern about Elijah Muhammad. But I didn't feel that uh I should question it in the sense that uh ... I had any authority to. So, and I was very mature when it comes to a man's functions behind divine leadership. Not that I had ever had the experience but I know what the scripture says about it. So, I left it alone. I sar-, [I was sorry to see my brother go after it. [I was sorry to see Malcolm say things that he had no business to say. He had no business to say those things and I was

sor-, but he was charged with saying a lot of things that he didn't say -- you see. And uh, so . . . and it had gotten out of hand. Also the subordinates under Elijah Muhammad were a regular mafia. They didn't think anything to order death or someone's arms broke or someone mistreated. They didn't think anything to do that. And I knew that. And um, I was in a ... they called me a person that was very lu-, I sat in the key seat because Elijah Muhammad himself protected me they said. And so they couldn't get to me.]

Q: Did you um ... were you ... did you feel confident that you felt ... you knew who killed your brother. [I was very sure. I was very sure. [I was very sure that Malcolm's death was caused by um James Shabbaz from New Jersey, by Elijah, Jr., by Herbert Muhammad and also by John Ali. I was ... they were the prime schemers femurs of that. And they got these little innocent brothers and made them and gloried them ... made them feel good and there would be a big honor for them to get

rid of Malcolm 'cause he was a major hypocrite. That was the preaching. And so when this Brother killed Malcolm -- he thought he was doing the right thing even i-, even if it had cost his life. But as he woke up he ... he stayed in ... he matured and he woke up -- he realized that he had been used and he told people he had been used. And uh, but Malcolm was dead then.] See. And uh, Elijah ... [the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was protected because he wasn't in Chicago in New York when Malcolm got killed -- they couldn't charge him and he didn't really know all about it ... in fact, he didn't -- they would never have told him -- no way! They wouldn't have told him "Daddy, we're gone do this we're gone do this -- mmuhm -- that's something that woulda happened and he would've investigated it -- if he invest -- investigated it, they would have told him what they wanted him to know and that was it. And he knew ... at that time he was um ... he was withdrawing. He was coming away from it. You never heard of him teaching. You didn't have no subjects of Elijah

Muhammad's teaching in those days except on that Savior's Day.]

Q: Now thinking about back now ... there were ... if you want people to come away with something about Malcolm --

Q: ... take something (unintel)

clean up -- wanted to see us be independent - - have our own money -- we don't have to have money with white Presidents on it -- we could have money with black Presidents -- this was his point. We don't have to pray to a Jesus and ... and thinking in our mind that he's white -- he didn't want that ... he wasn't after that ... he didn't do that ... he wanted us ... if you're gone pray, pray to a god that you believe he's like you] --

Q: The man that's sent to kill him that day -- describe to me -- what is (unintel)

TAKE 13 --

articulate the message so that the people could understand it. He could say what you wanted to say and didn't know how to say and he could encourage you about that and he could make you see that uh, he wasn't pulling your leg he was ... make ... could make you see that you were the person that must fulfill this destiny and that was his intention -- um, that was his purpose.]Yes. And um, I think he was jus coming to that when he was assassinated ]NO. again.

Q: You said to me earlier that you saw ... (unintel) similarities between him and his mother and that's why (unintel)

uh lie -- we should not cheat and steal. We should not drink. My mother used to teach us that. And uh many times when he would talk, I would tell him ... I said it almost sounds ... sounds like mother talking. And he would just say well, she was a wise lady, like that because she did give us that kind of teaching. And uh, we came up decent people. We didn't come up vagabonds ... as a family ... you don't find anyone in my family that's a no-count. We're not vulgar. We're not uncouth you know. We have a little air about us and it's uh comes from my mother.

Q: As brothers and sisters you all ... you all kind of joined the Nation --

Q: ... almost around the same time -- did you ever talk together about what uh ... what (unintel) what you thought ...

in Lansing -- Hilda. Wesley didn't ... he just would listen -- he was not a talker ...

Q:

kingdom in seven thousand years after the rule of the devil and that this was is ... that's what this is. We're seven-thousand years now from the making of the Caucasian race you see ... so this is the way we ... we ... we discussed that. That's the way I discussed it. That's the way I believed ...

Q: What about Malcolm -- did he ever talk to you about any long-term vision of what this was going (unintel)

good. He ... they didn't want that and Malcolm equated them with the dog that would protect its master but if you can take the dog away from his master and kick him all around the block and that's the way he equated the Uncle Tom. They won't defend themselves but they defend their master. He equated with the uh ... what you call the house negro and the slaves . . . uh the uh field negro. He equated them and he did it uh ... he convicted them when he did that and they got angry and they discussed and would get angry. And the caucasians set that out because he liked to see that happen you see.

Q: (Unintel)

natural real Islam. He doesn't fool the people. He doesn't set himself as a lead-, hisself up as a leader. He doesn't give anything phony or false or artificial and that's what Malcolm would be doing. And on the political level Malcolm would be talking to black folks about being themselves. And uh, like the news in papers today about the ... there is no black leadership -- you see that would be his chief argument because that's what he was talking about then is the NAAC -- CP cannot lead us -- CORE cannot lead us -- SNIC cannot lead us and uh, back to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad he said we cannot be successful unless we clean. He says, I don't care how you do or how wide you get, if you don't have moral discipline forget it. If you go up and you get right back like the Sisyphus(?) principle -- you roll up and roll right back down ... and while ... what will you bring you down? Wine, whisky, dope, women -- that's just gone bring us down -- that's what keeps us down. That's why the slavemaster gave it to us. They feed you the pork meat first -- its ... downs your mental

power ... then the next comes a little drink o' wine -- a little drink of whiskey. Then after that he gives you a sniff of something -- see then he puts his woman out there or he makes your woman what he wants her to be then he puts ... gives her to you ... You'll never be nothing like that. And here we are the next ruler -- we're the ruler like Sampson and uh, they weren't satisfied to see him get out ... they wanted ... Delilah got him.

OK TAKE 14

that he would come and stay with me a week or two because that would give him the rest that he needed but he never made it ... All right ... he said he has a ... he was writing a book with Alex Haley and that he had a few things he had to finish and uh, he uh when he finished with him he would come. uh, he was having domestic problems and uh ... and uh he uh ... I don't know if he blamed himself for it but at least uh ... he was having a ... uh domestic problem.]

Q: (Unintel) autobiography ...

and clean up the chickens. That's all uh ... and ... and I'm older than Malcolm. So he was a working man. He taught me how to work. He taught me how to do those things that you ... keep you alive you see -- and he was not a teacher --in. yes[ my mother was a teacher -- I can see my mother right now teaching -- around that stove. I can see her teaching and just explaining things and uh -- she was the one ... She is the one that made the impress about Marcus Garvey] -- it wasn't my father. [She taught us about Marcus Garvey and uh she read to us out o' the paper called the "Negro World" and we were just children. ]yes - out She saw to it. And there was no TV then to distract you and ... and "Our Gal-, Gal" Sunday movies and all that stuff. It was nothing but business and she was a business person. And so uh, I ... I um ... I uh, think that the ... NO[ childhood what we came through had a uh impress on us and I also believe that it had a great e-, uh, effect on uh what Malcolm turned out to be and uh all the rest of us. And uh, I don't wane sound conceited but yes[ I think that if you check the family you'll

find certain traits in the family are ... go just like a straight line. [We all want something. Uh awa-, away from money we want dignity -- want intelligence. We wane see ... I would like to see the African-American stop being a nigger. I would like to see that and if we ... and I'll like to see us take over ... take authority over the uh ... uh people in our area that handle dope and handle the things that are no good to us. I would like to see us take that charge 'cause God help those that help themselves and we have to help ourselves. We have to lose that Jesus syndrome -- that Jesus is gone save us -- Jesus is gone take care of it for us -- somebody else is gone do for us which it will never get done unless we do it ourselves. That has to be broken.

Q: One thing that ... (unintel)