Eulace Peacock. Camera roll fifty-eight, sound roll twenty-eight, sound eighty-six.

OK, Clayton.

Mr. Peacock, I wonder if you'd talk a little bit first about growing up—you grew up in East Orange, New Jersey, and you're born in Dothan, Alabama. Tell us a little bit about your, your childhood in East Orange.

[pause] [laughs] In East Orange—I have to think, it's so far back. [laughs] And, and I was two years old and, when we, my family, migrated from Dothan, Alabama, to East Orange. And of course, one of the interesting things, my mother would always say that I had white diapers when, when they left Alabama, and when they arrived at Newark, New Jersey, they, they were red. As you can recall, the, the train, of course, they didn't have sleeping accommodations, and they had these red seats. And of course, my being a baby, they, I, my diapers were red. And, and during that time, I was just interested in playing in the yard. Then finally I became, I was old enough to go to school. And Moss Hill, a friend of the family, he was formerly a, a basketball player and a coach down at Morgan College—he was working in the s-, dad's store, and every m-, morning, when I would cross p-, the park, I had to go into the store, because our, always late, and he would write a little not on the, on the, some paper and, and give it to me, and, and then I would continue on to school, which was Eastern Grammar School.

What—

Hold on a second. Cut, Clayton.

Yes.

Sound eighty-seven.

Second sticking.

Sound eighty-seven.

Second sticks. OK, good. Go ahead, Clay-

What do you remember about running? The, when, when you began running against the other kids in the neighborhood, did you—were you a runner before you started in high school?

In grammar school, after we moved to Vauxhall, New Jersey—it's a, a section of Union, New Jersey. There we g-, played games, and far as running is concerned, I wasn't that good at running. And when I was in the eighth grade, I - I was a long-jumper. That was my prime thing. It was—in the long jump, I jumped eighteen feet, in the fifth grade, and after that I was running. But the running part, I never won. I was chasing 'em all in, and - and I had—

Cut.

Cut for a second.

Cut.

Slate it.

Sound eighty-eight.

OK, Clayton.

Mr. Peacock, you was telling us that as a youngster you weren't very successful in the beginning as a runner. You were sort of chasing everybody, as—

That's right.

Let's start the story there, and see, see where that goes.

[pause] You mean, as far as—

Just—

—r-, running, or—

—talk about your running, your, your, the beginning, very beginning of your—

Well, I played basketball, and as, as far as running is—again, I would say, I chased everybody, 'cause everybody was ahead of me. Then I went to high school, and after getting in high school, that's when I began to win, as far as running is concerned. And my coach trained me, and he, through his training, I — I don't think I was a championship runner, I'll put it that way. I was a made runner, I was developin' to a sprinter, p-, through exercises.

Hard work.

Yeah, it was.

When you, when you started competing in high school, what did you—what was the level of competition like? Were you running against top runners around New Jersey? Were, was it, was yours a smaller school or—tell us about the, the high school—

You mean when -- in high school?

Yeah, Union, at Union High.

At Union High? At Union High, after I was a freshman, I not only competed in track and field, and basketball, and football, I — as far as football is concerned, as a senior I, I was made all-state halfback. H-, half the town wanted me to compete, or rather to play football; and the other half wanted me to, to run. And durin' my career, I—I never lost a hundred, or a sprint, or a long jump, durin' my high school years. And, and as far as football is concerned, my last year I, I scored 138 points for the year, and, and I made all-state team. And I made all-state in basketball, third team.

Do you remember your, much about your coach, Harry Lake? Tell us, tell us about him.

Harry Lake, he was my coach from the beginning until I left high school, and he's the one that taught, that trained me, showed me how to train, and trained me in track and field, and in football, and in basketball.

When you left Union High School, what—or when you were a senior at Union High School, were you receiving offers from colleges?

Yes, I had many offers, offers from college. And my, my s-, my high school principal, Miss Derling, she was an alumnus of Temple University, and that's how I got in to Temple University, even though I had offers from Dartmouths [sic], UCLA, and many other schools that I didn't go—maybe because my brother had gone to Temple University before me, my oldest brother.

Had you been in Philadelphia before? Was it a, was it something special to go to—the city Union isn't a very big place. What was it like, a freshman kid going to Temple University?

Well, that, that wasn't a, a problem. I adjusted to Philadelphia, and between going to school and training, my—practically, my activities were taken care of.

What did you find—was, was there much difference? Now you're coming out of Union High School, you've been a, an all-around athletic star; now you're into college-level competition, you're competing against people perhaps from all over the United States. W-, did you still feel you were, you were up to that competition? Did you have to work a little harder now, to, to compete?

Well, at college I, I competed, and I—

—had very successful years, as, as far as track and field is concerned.

Again, during competition I never, never lost the, a—

—sprint event that I competed in, or the long jump. [Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 1]

Tell us about the, what certainly are, for our purposes, monumental meetings between you and Jesse Owens. Jesse Owens, of course, receiving a tremendous amount of attention through that period of his career, but Eulace Peacock is the man who beat him on a number of occasions. Can you remember those, those races?

Well, the first encounter that I had as far as Jesse was concerned—I didn't know him, never heard of him. And at the state meets, New Jersey state meets, I competed in the, the hundred-yard dash and the long-jump. I broke the world record in the long jump, twenty-four feet, three inches. I went home and turned on the radio, two hours later, which meant that I had a world record for two hours. Jesse Owens broke it out in Ohio.

When was the t-, the first time you actually competed against him?

Against Jesse?

Yes.

First time I competed against Jesse was in [pause] 1934.

Can you remember the, can you remember that meeting with him?

I didn't compete th-, in the, in the running, and in the hundred. And it was just—

—the long jump that I competed, the, against him.

Cut—

—we're out? K, we're gonna change—

Mm-hmm.

—magazines, and then we'll go on.

Slate it.

Black Champions. February thirteenth, 1985. Eulace Peacock. Camera roll fifty-nine, sound roll twenty-nine, sound eighty-nine.

In 1934, I believe you tied the world record for the one-hundred meter dash in Norway?

Yes.

Can you tell us about that meet? What do you remember?

At that particular meet, in Oslo, Norway, after I won the hundred, and I was timed in world record time, they, the, my f-, teammates, they looked at me with a smile and said, you know, somethin' was wrong, you—I mean, you c-, you can't, you're, it's impossible to run that fast, and which, I passed it on as a joke. And, and what happened, the, the year, the year after that, at the national championships, I, when I won the hundred meters, I ran it in 10-2, and they said that the, the record was because of a wind. They, they, they wouldn't give me the record. But they went back and they brought the r-, the time in Norway out, and that's when I received recognition of, officially, about the hundred meters.

When you were running during this period—now this is '34, '35, you know, leading—

Mm-hmm.

—up to the, the Olympic year. Who were the tough—you said you hadn't, at this point, I gather, had not heard of Jesse Owens. Who were the people who were tops in your, who are the top competitors you were running against?

Well, I have, which I think is one of the greatest was Ralph Metcalfe. Ralph was, as far as Jesse and myself was concerned, was in control before 1935. And even—very few people realize it, but we had an opportunity to beat Ralph—in 1935—I'll put it this way. In 1935, I won the hundred, Ralph was second, and Jesse were third. And, and first time that Jesse beat Ralph was in 1936 at the, at the Olympics.

You ran once against Jesse Owens in San Diego, and apparently there was some—

[laughs]

—discrepancy there. Do you recall that—

[laughs] No. [laughs] Well, in Sa-, San Diego was very interesting. After, after the race, they went into a huddle. The judges and all went into a huddle, and a friend of mine had his head stuck in the huddle, listening to what they were saying. So he came and he said that they had, they had the problem, and he said the, I said, what do you mean, a problem? So he said, they had, they, they gave it to Jesse because they had his name written on, on the trophy. And of course, that was the beginning of the time that I felt more at ease competing against Jesse, because since they said that I could beat him then, that's when I had a, a run, for the rest of that year, of winning seven out of ten times.

Now you competed against him—well, there was a very big competition in the national championship—

That was in—

—in 1935—

'35.

—I believe.

—that's right.

Can you, can you tell us about the national championship in '35?

In, in 1935—well, it was after the - collegiate championships in Berkeley. Then we went down - to San Diego, then from San Diego we went to Lincoln, Nebraska. And at Lincoln, Nebraska, it was very hot, and we s-, spent our time under the stadium, and when they called us we would go out and, and perform. I didn't know until this year, when I saw an article in Times by Jesse Abramson, that during the heats, I thought—I didn't know that Jesse Owens was in my heat. I didn't see him. I didn't look for him, either, and I thought that he was seated out, and, and that we wouldn't have to run against each other. And in all these years, up to now, I just, I didn't know that Jesse was in that heat. And, and if he had beaten me at that time, no telling what would've happened at, as far as my reaction is concerned.

Was there a difference between you as runners? Did, did you have a different running style?

Yes. That's where the, there were the big difference. Jesse's the type, was the type of runner that, he could run the hundred meters, or the hundred yards, or whatever he was running, in world record time by himself. But I was the same type of a runner as Metcalfe. We depended upon our finish. Our speed, we could build up. Jesse could run beautifully right across, very, very smoothly, and that's why they already called him such a beautiful runner. But the, Metcalfe and myself, we, we had to do it all in the last twenty yards. Now if I couldn't, if, if Jesse was, on the start, was more than a yard ahead of me, I couldn't beat him. If he was within a yard ahe-, of me, I could, I could have a chance to beat him. And that's what happened every time when I won, I won in the last twenty yards.

In, I believe, 1935, or '36—I'm not certain you'll tell us, though. In Milan, Italy, you, you suffered an injury.

In Milan, Italy, I, I pulled a muscle, and that was perhaps the beginning of the end, as far as my athletics was concerned. I wouldn't, I wouldn't go that far. I—because I competed after that, and I won national championships after that.

Tell us how that injury occurred. Was it a, it was during a meet, I think—

With a, with the, with the hundred, hundred meters. And when I was about ten yards from the finish, I pulled, and I hob-, hobbled on one leg across the tape.

In those days, perhaps you didn't have as, as much sports medicine, or were many people as concerned about injuries, or people who really knew what to do about them, perhaps. How did you treat the injury?

Rest. That's the key to it. And not to, to come back too soon and s-, and, and strain the muscle again. But that's what I did at the Olympic trials. It was just, it was too much.

Can you—I know it's probably a, a rather unhappy thing to recall, but tell us what you remember about the Olympic trials. What happened? You were on the way, obviously would've been a member of the 1936 Olympic team. What happened?

Well, the same old injury that I, that I had made in, at the Penn Relays. It just came back.

You were telling us a little while ago that at that, at the Penn Relays, you were running the anchor in a relay—

Mm-hmm.

Tell us that story again. That was—you told us that story very well a few minutes ago.

Far as the Penn Relays—

Yes.

—and the, and the relay?

Right.

Well, I ran anchor at the Penn Relays—

—and when I received the baton, I was about twenty yards behind the leader, and I thought that I could overtake him after I had run about thirty-five to forty yards, because I g-, was closing in. And when I really poured it on, because I was overcoming the lead, that's when I pulled a muscle. And of course, I went up in the air and I landed on my opposite foot, then I hopped across the line. [Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 1]

Now did you still, was there still another opportunity after the Penn Relays for you to—

—qualify for the—

Yes.

—for the Olympics?

And I, that's when I pulled again.

And that was—where—

Tha—

—was that, again—

—that was in July. That was in, at the Randall's Island.

What about the, the conditioning of athletes in those days? Wh-, what was your, did you, did you worry about diet? Did you, you, did you do a s-, did you have a regular routine for, for conditioning? Some people today, for example, feel that athletes don't condition themselves as well as they should. What kind of conditioning—

Well, I was a, actually I was a sticker for conditioning and, so much so that—

—when I went into the Coast Guard, I was in charge—

Cut.

We're gonna change magazines, when—

Oh—

Stick it.

Sound ninety.

Mr. Peacock, in the course of your running career, you ran against Jesse Owens ten times.

Nope, I ran against him more than ten times. In 1935, after the national championships, we toured the country, and, and Canada, and that's when—

—we competed against each other ten times, and out of the ten time that we competed—

—I won seven times. [Note Interview gathered as part of Black Champions; Episode 1]

You won seven—

Seven out of ten.

—out of ten times against—really superb. Were there, what, was there a tee, did you have a, was there a game-plan you took into these meets? Maybe Jesse just couldn't figure out what you were doing.

No, no, that wasn't it. Jesse [pause], we were very close, and we didn't mind giving each other secrets, if there were such a thing as secrets, which there weren't. And one of the thing that Jesse said to me, he said, Eulie, he said, durin' that period in '35, I don't think that I was lettin' you win, I just couldn't win. And then I said, well, just one o' those things, and that was it.

Even after this disabling injury that kept you out of the 1936 Olympics, you continued to run. You ran until 1945, I believe.

Yes.

Tell us about the rest of that career. What, were there some particular meets that you remember? Were there some outstanding—

Well, when I was in the Coast Guard, and, and physical fitness, I think I was in better shape than I had ever been. And, and I competed in the pentathlon, which I won, and I won the pentathlon six—national pentathlon—six times. In 1933 was my first year of winning, and the last time I won the national championship in the pentathlon was in 1945. And in the Penn Relays, in which people in the east knows quite a bit about, I've won more championship titles than, in the history of the games.

As you think back across what was really, as you talked to us about it, a fine and magnificent career, are there any races, any individual competitions that you remember particularly vividly? Is there are a race that stands out in your mind?

Not in particular. The one that—of course, the high point was in 1935, and even then, when I won the, the hundred meters, after, after I had passed the tape and somebody said, you won. And I s-, the first thing I hollered out, I'd said, I, I won? I'd said, where was Metcalfe? Because we, I've had a lot of -- conflicts with him, because he's the only man that could pass me, if I, even if I had a start on him. And we competed in-, indoors, by the way, in West Virginia. And they had a, a, a series of forty-, fifty-, and sixty-yard dashes, and the first, the fir-, the, and in the fifty-yard dash, this is a young kid from out of Baltimore. He won the fifty yards. Then Metcalfe and myself, we were there, and we came in either second or third. And then we ran the six-, the, the sixty yards, and same thing happened. This kid, we don't know where he came from, but outta nowhere. And so, I said to Metcalfe, I said, Ralph, I said, this is very embarrassing; I mean, [laughs] we were, we were billed to, to win this thing, and, and this kid, he's, he's pretty good. And so, what about the finals? I said, I said, I c-, I sh-, I can't let him, I, I'm gonna try not to let him win. He said, yeah, that's the way I feel, too. So the finals went off, and I got a perfect start, and I was really rolling, and I got as far as six inches from the tape, and I knew where I, no problem in hitting it, and the tape disappeared. Metcalfe came outta nowhere, and that's when I had my first lesson from him that he had an awful lot stored within, with, not only in him, but he was great.

You competed against some really superb athletes. I-, is there something special about people who are champions? I mean, do they have a little more to give, or are they just—what is it? I mean, there are people who run all their lives and never quite get to the championship level. What's the difference?

Oh, it's very simple. You just, you, you should—number one, you should enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, it's, I don't care if you don't enjoy life. Your life is miserable. And it's the same thing. You, you go out, you're willing to train, and you, and you want to do better, and it's very simple. And just get out, and, and work hard.

When you think back about your own c-, think about yourself, what is being a champion? What has it meant to you? What has the term over the Eulace Peacock's, or alongside Eulace Peacock's name, of champion—what, what does that mean to you?

Well, it's a sense of accomplishament [sic]. It's something that you feel that you are, you, you can work through hard work; that you can, if you can just beat everybody doin' it—and I don't care what it is. I don't care whether it's in track and field, football, basketball. It's got the same basic things. That's to work hard; if you can't win, try to figure out WHY you can't win, and that way you can go in, you can enjoy workin' a little harder. And then, when you get the results, it's a wonderful feeling.

Do you think people who, who do that kind of hard work in, in athletics carry it over into other parts of their lives? Are champions people who will work hard, perhaps, in the, in their business lives and their professional career?

Well, I think so, for this reason. Of course, my wife, she thinks, she says she hopes that she could do the things the way I do them. When I have a problem, and, and I go to bed, and, and my wife would say to me, how in the world can you sleep? I said, no problem. She said, what do you mean, no problem? And I said, well, if I stay awake all night, there's nothing I can do the next day. If I get a good night's sleep, and when I wake up, I'm, I g-, I can think better, I can perhaps do whatever I want to do, and if not, it's gone. It's, it's out of my mind. And, and she said, well, I certainly wish that I could, I could do the same thing.

Did you have an opportunity to see the Olympics this, this past summer?

On TV.

Mm-hmm. What—

Yes.

—do you think about the, the modern runners? What, what are your impressions of some of the people you saw run this year, this past year?

Great. No question about it, their being great. But, again, only thing I can say about—during the time that we were competing, and now, you don't make comparison, because you can't make comparison. Number one, the, just the track alone—

Mm-hmm.

—is a, is a big difference. The, you take the, the starting blocks. Jesse never used starting blocks. Of course, it was il-, illegal. Metcalfe never used starting block, I never used starting blocks. And, out of all, the three of us, we never ran on, on the new track—whatcha call it?

Tartan.

Tartan - track. We, we never, we never did run it. And, and our times are, are still standing. And I think that you just—there's no comparison. In other words, I think if you take every athlete, except for a few of them, that have broken records, they have done it in, with, with all the advantages that we didn't have.

Can we cut for a second? What—

—did we get?