-do you remember, from how people reacted to it?

Mark it, please.

When you were a policeman walking the beat in Overtown, what was it like? How did you feel in the community in that day?

Well, being a policeman in the 1970s was pretty challenging, I think, for most Blacks, because it was at a time when the country was still going through a tumult about, you know, the pigs, et cetera, et cetera. And for a Black officer, it was a little tough, because you, you were considered in some cases to be a traitor, quote, unquote. So, it was always a-you felt very ambivalent about being a police officer. I mean, my father is a retired policeman, so, you know, I had a sort of tradition in the family, and I, of course, held, you know, police officers in sort of high regard. But it was a little difficult and I did feel rather mixed emotions myself about it because I really felt that the police department and law enforcement, probably in general, the criminal justice system, I guess in general, was, in my opinion, still rather conservative. So, you found yourself carrying a lot of water being a policeman, because there were a lot of racist policemen still in the police department as such, and a lot of racist practices as such. So, you always had somewhat of an ambivalent feeling about it. You also recognized that some of the problems that you encountered on that beat were problems that were real outgrowths of poverty as such. And so you weren’t always sure what you were, what you were fighting at some point. And I think offers a rather introspective and you know, a fairly philosophical period, I guess, in America, I guess.

Now, you walked a beat in Overtown, the place where you grew up. Tell me what Overtown was like.

Well, at the time, Overtown was a, was a bustling community. I mean, it was somewhat on the decline, but it was still, I mean it was still a lot, you know, of the economic viability that it had was still there. I mean, we had sort of a nightlife infrastructure there, where the city didn’t close down, I mean, it just stayed open all night long, and other entertainers that would come in, et cetera, we had restaurants, all kinds of shops. I mean, literally, it was a, a complete community, a self-contained community. A very exciting place to be. You know, it was always something going on all the time. So, I enjoyed the beat. I mean, it was a familiar area for me, one, a lot of friends there, and that was both, you know, helpful and sometimes humble, I mean to have, you know friends. But I enjoyed it and it was, it was a great community.

Tell me about how your father had a couple stores in Overtown and had to move? I mean, why?

Yeah, my father owned, you know, several small businesses in Overtown. And of course, one of them, the area where it was is now an expressway through that area. And then on 20th Street, I mean, they literally came and bought out those businesses there. And they received a small amount of compensation for the businesses. His business was among ones that were, that were, that were bought out. So, we had to move because of urban renewal and a lot of, you know, construction and housing, et cetera, that was placed in that area. So, a lot of the commercial enterprises and such were just destroyed in that area. And of course, he was displaced, and removed his businesses to Liberty City.

Now, you talked about the economic isolation of Overtown and the Black community. Tell me what you meant by that and h-how did that happen?

Well, you know, of course being in the South, I mean you know, we actually in fact had both de jure and de facto segregation. So, a lot of the isolation just remained over time, and as the larger community grew, et cetera, in spite of integration, I mean it didn’t include the Black community. It just grew around it, in effect. And a lot of the you know, the viability and the growth of Miami, et cetera, never included the Black community. It continued to shrink pretty much. And almost in some cases, I guess, I'll describe it as dying on the vine. You know, a lot of what was viable in the community really was sort of skimmed away into the larger community. A lot of the nightlife and such that often attracted Whites and others to our community, those entertainers that were, you know, the best as such were then working in White clubs. You know, so there’s no need for the White community to come to our community anymore. I mean, a lot of what we had in the way of food et cetera, conch salad, which was something that people came to Overtown to get was now being sold in White restaurants. You know, so we found a lot of what we had was sort of gleaned away, or skimmed off, and taken to a larger community, and so it lost a lot of its viability, and everything was built around that. And even today, I mean, there’s been no real effort to include the Black communities in the overall planning that occurs in this town. I mean, there’s planning around it, there’s planning which displaces this community, there’ve been plans that have included parts of the community, but not to-for the benefit of the indigenous population, but rather to attract others into the area. And often those others, just on the mere, on the mere basis of pricing of the housing, et cetera, has resulted in a lot of displacement of Blacks in this community.

So, it feels like Overtown, the Black community, is like a hole in the doughnut. Would you describe it as such?

I think that's a-it’s an accurate description, that it really is the hole in the doughnut.

Let’s stop down.

OK.

OK.

Mark it.

Is it fair and can you differentiate between like, Overtown and Liberty City for me, in cleansing?

Yes, I think you can, in the sense that Overtown, from a historical perspective, was where Blacks were in the main in the '30s and '40s as such, and in the early '50s. And then after so-called urban renewal, and an expressway was built through that community. It sort of bifurcated the community and really displaced, literally, tens of thousands of Blacks, who then moved to Liberty City. So, I think from a historical perspective, yes, there’s a difference in that regard. But many of the people who live there relocated in the Liberty City area and created a sort of a move north as such.

You were telling me about a parade that used to happen in Overtown. Tell me about the parade.

Yeah, we used to have a parade, FAMU. At the time it was FAMC. And they would come down just before their big game, they’d have the big Orange Blossom Classic as such. I mean, and it was literally a, a weekend of excitement. Everyone'd get up for it, all the students came back, and we literally had Blacks coming from all over the country to come to this game.

Let me stop you right there. Our audience will not know what FAMU is, so when you say FAMU, say Florida A&M University.

OK.

Start again.

All right.

You used to have a parade.

Yes, we used to have a parade, Florida A&M University.

Start again.

Yeah, start again. Go ahead.

Yeah, we used to have a parade, just before Florida A&M University’s big game each year called the Orange Blossom Classic. And it was really a major event in this community. I mean, Blacks came from all over the country to see this game, it was just-businesses were just alive, all the businesses made a lot of money because they had-the restaurants were all active, and hotels were, were filled with the guests, and, I mean, it was a very exciting time in the community and it was a tradition each year. It was during a time that Miami was segregated in the main, when this occurred, so we had the Orange Bowl Stadium would be really, at two sides. I mean, one side would be Whites, and the other side would be Blacks, I mean, but it had a larger White, a White audience during the segregation than it does now. I mean,it was just a major event in this city.

Now, you told me that your family moved out for some key reasons. Do you remember what you said? Tell me, tell me why your family moved out.

Well, my, my family, my family was two reasons. First, my father moved out of Overtown with us when we were quite small. The family was young, too. He was a GI, and a chance to take advantage of the GI Bill, and he moved to a, an area where they had built several little developments as such. A lot of GIs moved out to move in that area. Then subsequently, when I, of course, was trying to start my family and to find a place to live, I moved out, as well, and it’s just really to find decent housing, because most of the housing was in fairly poor shape. Especially in Liberty City. And to a great degree, that still remains, though there have been some improvements made.

OK, let’s stop there.

And that [coughs] and maybe a short follow-up to that-

OK.

-will take us through this roll-

OK.

-and then we’ll change rolls and then we’ll go-

And do you want, do you want to-

[inaudible]

-in response to the question you’re saying that I noticed, I was trying to-what, what do you want me to sort of talk about?

Just a second-

Hang on a second. I want you to talk about how the, the attitude was reinforced-

OK.

-by a reward system.

OK.

Mark it, please.

Tell me about the attitude of the, the police to the Black community around 1979 or so.

I think generally, the police department historically, it viewed the Black community as you know, kind of the combat zone, and you know, it wasn’t a matter of fighting crime, they often said they were fighting the people in that community, you know. Beyond that, I mean, that was sort of reinforced within the police department itself. You would find, for an example, when Chief Garmire came in and talked about not shooting people, fleeing felons, unless they were, you know, posing some imminent danger to someone and whatever else, there was a lot of resistance to that in the police department. Because prior to that, the old Chief Headley, you know, had an order out during the 1967 riot to shoot to kill kind of thing. So, there was a lot of built-in resistance to that. And so, when we’d get a memo from the Chief that would be read in the roll call room, I mean, the-it would be preceded by the sergeant saying, All right, fellows, we gotta listen up. And you could hear in the voice of the sergeant that there was no enthusiasm for supporting what had come down from the Chief as such. He was talking about integrating the police department, he was talking about a community relations section which he started. And those were all like little sissy sections. You didn’t want to be involved in that. Beyond that, I mean, you wanted to get the coveted award, which was the Officer of the Month Award. You know, that was the cowboy award. That was the one that you’d bring some cat in bleeding, and handcuffed, and dragged him in the station kind of thing. That was the award that you really went after and the one that led to you becoming Officer of the Year, really. But the Courteous Officer of the Month Award, which was one you got for helping somebody, for assisting somebody in trouble, for that kind of thing, that was an award that was really-no one really coveted it. You got that one if a lot of nice old ladies wrote in and said something about you or whatever. So, you found the behavior in the police department being skewed toward the tough guy, macho kind of, whatever else, as opposed to someone out there helping, you know? And you found that when-where helping occurred, in effect, it occurred in the White community. And there was less that attitude in the Black community. I mean, the Black community was, you know, let’s go in and whip some heads and take some people to jail kind of thing.

OK. Stop. Do we have rollout?

Yes, we do.

So, I'm gonna back up and say so-I guess, what's the question? [laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah. [laughs]

What were the, you know-

You got it.

And so the policemen would get different kinds of awards different places. Pick it up with-yeah, and so we would get the, the courtesy award in the White communities but not in the Black communities. And just give me a full sentence. The police would get for them. OK.

OK.

Ready?

Mark it.

So, you were talking about what the police would get in the White communities versus the Black communities. Te, te, tell me that again.

Yeah, you found the police officers getting their Courteous Officer of the Month Award for work they often did in the White community. But you know, you got the-you made the Officer of the Month in the Black community that's where you went out there to bust some heads, and to make the arrests, et cetera And often what it resulted in is police officers upgrading arrests. Where they may have a B&E of a, of an auto, entering auto, you know, it’s a minor thing, they’ll beef it up to a B&E of an auto because they got a bigger charge out of that. You couldn’t make Officer of the Month for the nice things you did, you made it for the hard crimes, the Part One crimes you got. So-and you did that in the Black community in the main.

Now, were you surprised when Arthur McDuffie was-when you heard about Arthur McDuffie’s beating at the hands of those cops in 1979?

Well, I-in one sense, I mean, you always are surprised by things like that because you wanna hope for the best. But having been there and having seen the kind of frenzy that almost occurs whenever there’s a chase, you know, I’ve seen guys at the end of those chases in the past get pushed around real good. Never to the extent that it resulted in a death. So, I guess that was a logical extension of what was going on, because these things always ended with officers roughing up the suspect. I mean, that has, that has happened historically in the police department. End of a chase, everybody’s excited. When they seize the suspect, usually they go and do some kind of-you'll see somebody’s gonna-is overreact minimally. So, it was not something not to be expected.

Were you surprised at the response from the community?

I was not surprised by what happened on the part of the community. I mean, I think that all [pause] meaningful, I mean, or responsible people in this community felt the outrage at these officers being found not guilty. And for the Black community to over-I mean to react the way it did, it waited un-for the courts to have at it. I mean, it gave the justice system a chance to, to do its thing, in spite of the fact that it changed the venue and everything else. So, this community gave this community-I mean, gave the criminal justice system a chance to work. And when it didn’t, in a case where it was very obvious, because the officers were guilty. Other officers testified against other officers, which is a code you seldom break in a police department. And when you find that kind of thing happening, you’ve got a, a crime on your hand. And this community just, just refused to accept that kind of disregard for, for Black life, I mean, of a man who clearly was not involved in any serious crime, and at best was an-had committed a traffic violation.

All right, now afterwards, after the riot and what have you, in comes Jimmy Carter with a lot of promises. Were you at that meeting with Jimmy Carter, by the way?

I wasn’t in the building, I happened to be outside at the time. I mean, it was like, sort of a closed meeting. But I was there when he came out and the, the community did not appreciate his visit to Miami.

All right. What spurred you, what about this-wait a minute, stop down.

OK.

Mark it, please.

You were telling me that after the riots, some time after, you saw some needs in the community here and sought to take action on them. What was it and what did you do? How'd you do it?

Well, there were, of course, a lot of issues that were being addressed at that time. Some were social and others were economic. Of course, we were more interested in focusing on the economic issues. We were at the time, I say “we,” I was at the Belafonte TACOLCY Center, which is a center that Harry Belafonte helped to establish back in the '60s. And we were trying to focus on some other issues and there were several groups that had come to Miami, the federal government was here making all kinds of promises, there were foundations here talking about helping out, et cetera. And we got involved with both the Ford Foundation in a more limited way, and the local Initiatives Support Corporation, which is a Ford Foundation spin-off. Got us interested in looking at economic development issues as such. And of course, one of the things we focused on was the project we’re sitting in right now, the-it was an abandoned supermarket after the riots of 1980. They had been looted and vandalized, and there were several groups attempting to do something about it. There was one group called the Godfathers as such, that was formed by the Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce. And it had an attitude, I think, about the Black businesses and the Black community which I personally had problems with. But that was-I’m happy to say that also they were unsuccessful in doing anything about this project after many efforts, you know, to try to do something about it in different configurations. They had some sense that to make this project viable, you should bring the Black churches in, you know, and convince them that they should, you know, shop at a shopping center, et cetera, the kind of naïve view that often is held by the larger community. We, of course, approached it in a totally different way. We felt that a real market existed for a shopping center here, and we set about proving that that market existed, and to approach it as a purely business proposition. And based upon that, we then approached an anchor tenant about the, about the shopping center, several supermarket chains, but of course, ended up discussing one serious discussion with Winn Dixie about it and purely on a business basis. We didn’t talk about our community needing a sh-a supermarket, we didn’t sort of target it at Winn Dixie’s emotions, we came in here and said that there was a market available here, that there was money to be made. That we, one, were capable of producing a, a, a shopping center, if you will, developing one for them. We could retrofit the space to meet their needs, et cetera. And we convinced them in that, that, that was, that we were capable of doing that.

There must have been an image problem with trying to retrofit a shopping center, supermarket in this area. How’d you attack, and how’d you deal with that?

Well, there were several problems. One is, of course, it was on the heels of a riot, and of course, a supermarket had already been here. So, I mean, Winn Dixie wasn’t necessarily, I mean, that enthusiastic about coming here. But we did convince them that, one, we could do it, because we assembled a team of people, one, who had the expertise to do it. We brought in several Black businessmen who one, one gentleman ran a supermarket chain in Baltimore-some eight-had some eight stores, doing about $25 million a year, and those stores were in former A&P stores. So, he had shown that he could go into a market where-that had been abandoned, you know, by a, you know, a large chain and had made stores work. So, we had a man who had experience in inner city supermarkets who was there as a part of our team. The second guy we had involved had extensive ex-experience in business packaging. And a third person was a, a, a, a developer, a city developer who owned his own firm, he and his partner, in fact. And so we had the team that-with all the requisite expertise for developing a shopping center, who was able to talk to any professionals about, about this deal. I mean, to talk to engineers, to talk to banks, to talk to Winn Dixie, et cetera,, about its business, and show a lot of knowledge about that business. The one guy, Henry Edwards, who ran a inner city supermarket chain, that worked with Jewel Foods, was, was Harvard-educated. I mean, he knew a lot about the business, so he, he didn’t go in talking on the basis of any foolishness. He talked about the business of running supermarkets.

Well, now, how did, how did the supermarket chains, chain you ultimately attracted respond to this kind of approach, which was like straight up mainstream?

Well, what we found was, was that they really responded in a very businesslike way, once we approached them on a businesslike basis. I mean, they, they really started posturing about, you know, trying to get the, get the right rents, et cetera, I mean, once they recognized it was there. But I have to give one guy a lot of credit, it was an architect for Winn Dixie. I mean, it was tough to come in and retrofit a, a, a, a supermarket into an existing building, buil, building because of all the mechanicals, et cetera, that are associated with that, and a proven industry understand what that involves. But he felt it was a challenge that he wanted to undertake, but beyond that he felt that it was doable. You know, so there was some reluctance to, to try to see if they couldn't fit it in here. Once we convinced them the market, et cetera, was here, with the convention, we had convinced them also that we had a building that we could convert to meet its needs. Because it has a very definite layout in the supermarket business to get some certain economies, and certain efficiencies, et cetera. But we convinced him that we were capable of putting it together, so it was a very positive response once Winn Dixie was assured that we could, in fact, deliver what we were talking about.

As the process is going on now, do you remember, recall any story of any incident that sort of illustrates what you had to do to get over?

Yeah, we had one guy who represented Winn Dixie, and Winn Dixie is a, is a, is a Southern operation as such. I mean, you could, you could describe some of the leaders as “good old boys.” But they're very smart and bright people. They know their business and you can be disarmed by their friendly Southern way. But he’s a very tough negotiator, and he came in to start setting the stage for negotiating a lower rent, and start talking about, we know this is a, this is a dangerous community and all the other stuff. But we had people who were experienced, understood what was going on, so I mean, we stayed-you know, we took a tough line about what we wanted out of it. And eventually we arrived at a number that we could agree on, that worked for them, and worked for us. So, there were some posturings, you know, posturing if you will, on their part, to try to negotiate the best deal. But it was that kind of thing more than anything else. But once they were comfortable with the team, that we had people in place who could develop the project, et cetera, it was a deal, I mean, it wasn’t, it wasn’t tough. But it was convincing them that we were there about business and weren’t there to talk about social issues.

Alright, let’s cut here.

Mark it, please.

You were working with youngsters at the TACOLCY center in like, '79, '80. What was it like for a youngster facing the summer?

Well, you know, one of the frustrating things for, I think, in this community, obviously, and I think across the country, in dealing with young people is that each year at the end of school, I mean, you have all these youngsters would come in looking for these summer jobs as such, that were sponsored through the SEDA Program. You'd have thousands of youngsters that would come in to apply for hundreds of jobs, and so you’d start the summer off by sending away nine tenths of youngsters who came there, you know, frustrated because they couldn’t find employment, or couldn’t-cause it just wasn’t available. There was never adequate funds to fund these, you know, jobs for these young people. So, every year we experienced that. And that was our big frustration, just handling that horde of youngsters that came in that we knew we could not provide jobs for. So, they'd leave there with heightened expectations, heightened frustrations, the whole nine yards, and with no way of us, for us to really help them as such. And there were no opportunities, employment opportunities, in the larger community for them either.

Do you think that played a role in the riot?

I think. I think it does. I mean, I think you find youngsters very frustrated by not feeling a part of the system as such, not being able to realize their aspirations. I mean, these youngsters need that money, I mean just to buy school clothes and go back to school next year. So, it’s not just some little extra job they’re doing just to occupy themselves in the summer. That money oft-times helped to, to sustain the family, I mean it would actually put meat on the table as such. So, it had a very real, real role in, in, in the sustenance of those families.

This is your opportunity to tell me some stuff now. Tell me, tell me your, your approach toward self-determination. For yourself as an entrepreneur, for your company and the people working with you, and as it relates to this community and its hopes for the future. Talk to me about that.

Well, I think ultimately, I mean, you know, we have to recognize that even-no matter how well-intentioned people are, that we have to solve our own problems, ultimately. I mean, at best, we can receive some assistance in doing that, but the solution has to be ours, and ultimately, we have to implement the solution. So, it’s about us doing it for ourselves in the final analysis, maybe with the assistance of others, but clearly our own effort. And so, therefore we have to look at the opportunities in our, in our communities, I mean, to become more economically viable and to create a wherewithal out of it. I think the stuff, if you will, for doing that is already in place. I mean, it has clearly been the fortunes of others, and we’ve got to now make it a fortune for ourselves. I mean, we spend an enormous amount of money for all kinds of goods and services, but they’ve been spent outside of this community, so therefore, you know, jobs, wealth, et cetera, is created upon a transaction. You know, if everything is being bought outside your community, et cetera, being made outside your community, that’s where the economic centers are being developed. We’ve got to now begin to look at creating those things in our own community, with our own resources, currently. Not to find new money, just existing money which we currently spend in this country is sufficient to start a economic, I mean, just a, you know, vi-I mean an economic plan to revitalize our communities.

Tell me the story about the man across the street with the shoe store and what’s happening with him, as for, as related to this shopping center.

Well, you know, when this shopping center started, I mean, we to some degree feel we catalyzed in development in this area. First of all, it gave the community itself a sense that something was occurring, you know, that there was some investment being made in the community. But it also encouraged the merchants around this area to start to sorta gearing up, because they knew that this community, this shopping center would bring literally thousands of people in. We thought it would bring about six thousand. It’s bringing closer to seventeen thousand people a week into this community. So, that’s something that other merchants can benefit and feed off of. So, one of the guys next door here built a small strip shopping center of his own and started a little shoe store in there. I mean, he started with a very small operation. He just thought he'd just make some little extra money. The thing has outgrown even what he thought it would, would, would be. I mean, just today, he's talking about expanding further, and, and fixing mannequins in the window, and he’s providing employment for people, the whole nine yards. So, there’s a kind of economic revitalization occurring. Not only in this community, but across this country, I mean, in Black communities. There's an entrepreneurial class that’s now emerging, and is being nurtured, I guess, in some communities by community development corporations, and in some cases, even local governments and the federal government. More procurement opportunities, et cetera. So, specifically in this area, I mean, our approach about this is that we’ve approached this on a purely business basis, its, it’s not an emotional issue. And revitalizing communities is nothing unique or different for any community. I mean, the development process works in Black communities, White communities, et cetera, I mean, again, a case in point would be what happened in Baltimore, I mean, with the Rouse project. I mean, those kind of catalytic projects, no matter where you initiate them, I mean, catalyze an investment momentum. And the same is true in the Black community.

OK, we can cut here.