Okay, then.

Ray Leonard, let's talk about young Ray Leonard. What kind of a kid were you? What, what do you remember about yourself [missing frames] as a youngster growing up? Anything special about you, anything—?

I think, as a youngster, I always felt inferior to society. I'm talking young. I recall living in Washington, D.C., northwest. My father, at the time was working at a supermarket. My mother, she was doing little jobs, odds and ends. And we would walk to the monument, which was like fifteen miles, maybe. And I was shy and timid also, and I saw myself, not afraid; because a-, at the time I was hungry. I would go in the trashcans and get a hamburger, because there'd be half a hamburgers, because people, the tourists, you know, they would visit the museums and what have you; so they would never finish a hamburger. And I knew that. And I would get it and eat it, and I felt proud. Hey, my stomach was full. But that bothered me for a long time, because I knew that we didn't have anything, although my mother and father made sure we had something to eat. At school the same thing; I would not go to school because we had field trips and I couldn't afford it. [missing frames] The Boy Scouts; I think there was a membership or something like that, and we didn't have the money for the uniform, and I never participated; never got involved. So there was a lot of things, as a youngster, that became motivation to me once I, you know, became older.

How many kids in your family?

I have three older brothers and three sisters.

What—Usually families that size there's a lot of competition; a lot of—

Oh, competition; that's an understatement. We, we stayed together; we stuck together through any circumstances. But, it was the thing was that my brothers; they were athletically inclined; I was not a sports guy. I was more so t-, with my, my sisters. And my brothers, they would bring trophies home, basketball trophies, track trophies. And they would tease me at times, because I was like Mama's lil'-- lil' boy. My sisters, they were involved in singing and what have you. I try that but I didn't see any future. [laughs] But we were a tight family, we really were.

How did you first become involved in boxing?

I think boxing became just a surprise, because my name is Ray Charles; I was named after Ray Charles, the singer; and I sang for awhile in church, but once we moved to Maryland, my brother, Roger, older brother Roger, he would carry boxin' gloves around the neighborhood, and he would get the guys involved in fisticuffs; I mean, just out punchin' around; and he took it a step further. He went to Ollie Dunlap, who, at the time, was the director of Palmer Park Recreation Center, and asked whether or not we, he could start a boxin' club; a team, rather. And that took place. And I got involved because I wanted to be like my big brother. So boxin' became somethin', I guess it was almost inevitable, in a sense.

For a shy, somewhat withdrawn kid, what kind of reaction did you have, the first time somebody smacked you in the chops with a boxing glove?

Well, it didn't feel good. But it also, because it's, boxin' is an individual sport and if anything materialize, it's up to you to make it happen. And boxin' for me was a way of makin' a statement, a profound statement, and no one could change that.

Who encouraged you in the beginning? Ollie Dunlap, o-, obviously; but were there other people involved in the beginning, who sort of said, hey, keep with this; you're, you're good, you can, you can go further?

No, I don't think there was anyone that encouraged me. I did what I wanted to do. I think that, that, even at, as a teenager, I kept—and I still do, I keep a lot of things inside of me, and I'm always thinkin'. I somewhat have a pensive attitude about a lot of things and I, I just continue, because I, every, every fight, every bout that I would win, it was like another step towards getting confidence and self-esteem; it was somethin' that was makin' me, it was givin' me an identity. It was givin' me a personality. It was makin' me somebody.

Did you feel you were, you were good from the very beginning? I mean, did you, did you start out with a flair for boxing, or was it a slow developing?

I don't know. I'd, I never, nothin' could discourage me. I, there were always deterrent factors, but I would jump over those obstacles. And I just felt that if I gave it my all, I could be [missing frames] on top; and I don't know, as time went on, and I saw things that, like over the rainbow; I saw that pot of gold, but not money; I just saw something big happ'nin'. And then I realized how significant the Olympics could be, to be on the team. And that was 1972 and I was too young, but I lied about my age and I tried to qualify. And I guess since then, and I knew that to keep this up, somethin' could happen. [missing frames]

You described yourself once as a fighter early in your career; somewhat like Joe Frazier. Of course, most people who know you know could never imagine you in that style, but is that how you started out?

I watched Joe Frazier and I saw how effective he was with his particular style, and I emulated; I wanted to be like him. And I would fight like him. And I was successful; and I would pretty much knock a lotta guys out that way. And then I saw Ali, and I saw a lot - Ken Norton - I saw a lot of the fighters, Roberto Dur·n, and I just said, well, I'm a - use a dissect here, use a bit of his, and just use all their, their attributes and put 'em to use, and m-, to make Sugar Ray Leonard. Ali, I was not as braggadocious as Ali, but I felt that, from a psychological standpoint, if I could win the psychological warfare with an opponent, it's to my advantage. So I started talkin', but not derogatory. With Joe Frazier, I had that drive, because Joe never gave up. I never gave up. And with Dur·n, thereís a difference in our mentality, but I, I had his, his, his, his fire, his, that furnace, that burning desire to win.

1976, of course, a, a, very important year in, in the development of your career, the Olympics. How did you; what was the road to the Olympics like? How did you qualify? When, d-, first of all, did you know you had a chance to go to the '76 Olympics?

When I attempt to make the 1972 Olympic team, and I lost in the quarter finals; back then, to a Greg Whaley from Cincinnati, Ohio, I went into the dressing room and some guy said, "Sugar, you coulda made the Olympics." And I, then it dawned on me that I, I missed out, so I cried. I was in the dressing room, the locker room. And Sergeant Thomas Johnson, who, unfortunately, passed away in that, that plane crash; he told me back then, he said, "Sugar, Man," he said, "1976 is your year. You'll be there." And I would not let anything stop me. I kept going; I, my hands were bad; I had numerous injections during fights, because, to alleviate the pain; and I went through a lot. I paid my dues.

That was a very interesting team, the '76. Of course you had the Spinx brothers, Howard Davis, yourself, obviously. Was—and people talked about it being a, an especially close group of guys. When did the team actually form? When did you know you were gonna be a team?

Well, you could see that in the makin's. You knew that durin' the tournaments we would have, the Golden Gloves, the Western Trials, the Eastern Trials; you saw what was happenin'. It was inevitable that certain guys would make it. Spinks, quite naturally, hew was, he was devastating; and Howard Davis, who was, who was speed all the way. You saw guys; you saw the team forming, and we knew we would g-, be one, one particular team. But it was t-, even tough because we had to, again, compete against our, the guys we defeated in the finals. And we were a family; I think we, we, we spoke for so many other fighters. And we represented our country. r-, we represented ourselves. I was the captain of the team, and, which was a, a, great honor; but it also, was a, it was a job because at times they would say, well, Ray, it's time to run. I would get all the guys up to run. And Leon Spinks had a habit of s-, o-, oversleeping; and you just don't wake Leon Spinks up and say, run. And I would tap him on his shoulder and stand back and say, "Leon, do you feel like running?" [laughs] But Leon was, he was a good dude. He really was a good person. And we had a special team—the camaraderie, man. We, we were a part of each other.

The other team at that Olympics, of course, that was very special, was the Cuban team. Did you have any communication with them? I mean, they, they came up there as a very highly touted team as well. Did, did you know any of them, or meet any of them before?

The only person from the Cuban team that I knew was TeÛfilo Stevenson. And I recall it was maybe my third fight; I was goin' to the semifinals and I had to make the weight the next day, so I was in the sauna. And all of a sudden this big—I saw this huge image walk in. And I looked at, I mean his face, because he, it was such a similarity with Ali's face, facial characteristics were so, so close. He walked in and he sat down and I mean, I'm nervous, I'm lookin' at him, from the side [laughs]; because I did, I s-, just stared at him. And then he said, he put his hand on my, on my knee, said, "Sugar," he said, "I like you." [missing frames] Thank God, you know. [laughs] He said, [truck engine noise] You, You're the best. I don't care what no one say. [Rollout on Camera Roll.] You gonna win. He said, "I'm from Cuba, you will win."

We out?

Quiet on the set.

All set.

At the 1976 Olympics, you win a gold medal against AndrÈs—

Aldamas [sic]

Aldama. Tell us something about that fight. What kind of fight was it?

[laughs] I tell ya. I had defeated the guy from Poland, and I think the East German, from England; so I was like, so-called extablished [sic]. I was well on my way to a gold medal. And I read—then, my sister, sh-, I called her and she was tellin' me what the papers were sayin' at home about this guy from Cuba who was considered the favorite. I said, Are you sure this is from my home town? [laughs] She says, Yeah, some of these writers are sayin' that this guy will beat you, knock you out, because he's, this guy was awesome, with a Capital A, because he knocked out everyone; knocked them unconscious; a big tall guy, southpaw. So they had this buildin' where we could go and r-, review some of the fights, the tapes and what have you. So I went over there and I'm sittin' with some of the athletes from different sports. So, all of a sudden, the tape of AndrÈs Aldamas [sic] come up. All of a sudden this guy knocks this guy out cold. And I, I hear— they didn't know who I, people didn't really know me, so they were saying, Oh, man, Sugar Ray's in trouble; he's gonna knock Sugar Ray out. So I s-, s-, slipped out, and I started doing my exercises, right at the village. But I, I was motivated, because what motivates me, when they say I can't, I prove them wrong. And goin' to the fight; in fact my family were there; I was, I knew I was gonna win. I knew exactly what I was going to do, and I knew what I had to do.

Tell us about your plan for that fight. You went into it, obviously—you knew what he, you knew he was a strong knock-out puncher, so obviously you had devised a strategy. What—

Oh, yeah. I, I felt that this guy had knocked guys out in the first round, second round. So he didn't have any win; his gas tank was on "E" third round. Other wor-, in order words, he would be tired. So my game plan was to get inside and just cover up; a modified rope-a-dope, if you will; and I did that, and he was wingin' away, hittin' me in the, in the side; and I mean, it was, it hurt. And I said, God, this can't last but so long. And he punched, he punched and I did this [holds fists in front of face] and then finally he stopped punchin', and I did that [opens fists to reveal face] to see where he was still there; and he was tired. And I just went off on 'im. And I threw my punches and then I, I hurt 'im, and he would start retaliatin'; and I just, just built up momentum. And then I knew I had him.

That was the gold medal, of course. As, as you said before, you guys were there, you were fighting for your country and fighting for yourself. This is of course your first, obviously your first big championship. What was that period like for you? What, how did the other guys react?

Oh, we cheered each other on. I mean, it was, you know, we would just like root and cheer and just yell for each other. And after each guy would win, you know, we'd embrace each other and we did it. Because, see, the Olympics was the ultimate; and every amateur competitor's dream is to win an Olympic gold medal and [clears throat] out of all the years that we worked and sacrificed and dedicated ourselves to that, our sport, it finally paid off, because we had accomplished the ultimate.

You were reported as not being interested in turning professional after the Olympics. I think everybody expected you to, but you expressed some reluctance.

Well, because I, I said that I wanted, I fulfilled my dream; and I wanted to do somethin' and, you know, for myself and also they said, Well, you're a role model now. I said, OK, great. I said, Well, I'm go t' school; and I had enrolled at University of Maryland. But now I also have to face reality, because I thought that, you know, once you won a gold medal and something that significant, you could be on the Wheaties box. We, my attorney at the time, my trainer and still is, we contacted the people and they say, well, we'll get back with you. And they really cons-, I think they considered, but as my attorney say, they considered puttin' me on there, but it would probably have been unprecedented to have the first Black on a Wheaties box, which I thought might have been kinda neat. So th-, they say, without sayin', the reason they couldn't do it w-, was because I was Black. And I didn't, you know I didn't, I didn't take that as a derogatory statement. I understood how things are in society and what have you. Jobs were not that great. I worked at Department of Recreation Center, and they, they treated me well. But I needed more, because my father was ill at the time. He was ill when he went to the Olympics; when he came up there to Montreal. And he was in desperate need of finances. It woulda been great to have went to U-, Maryland University, but I needed somethin' to support my family; my father, more so. And, I mean, I was in limbo. I didn't know which way to turn [missing frames] and Janks Morton, who became my trainer, he suggested me, he said, Ray, you know somethin'; you made a name in boxin'; I think that is a vehicle for you. I think you should utilize it to, to the utmost. He said, because the longer you wait, the more people will forget about the Olympics and your name. From a marketable standpoint, you lose out. And he was absolutely right. So I made the first move, turned professional in 1977 [missing frames] and I took care of my father medical bills, and I feel great.

Tell us about meeting Mike Trainer. He wasn't really involved in boxing before you.

Mike Trainer. My first, first time I met Mike was through Janks Morton. And it was a very uncomfortable feelin' because I sat there, and I'm just a kid, a naive kid, and I'm sittin' there, and he's sittin' behind this, this big desk. And he say, Well, whaddya wanna do? I said, Well, I wanna go t' school. Go to school for what? I said, business. Because we all say, we always say business, business. He said, OK. He say, Well, what're you gonna to do about a job? I th-, I said I thought you were gonna take care of that [laughs] And I, then I said, well, I wanna be a movie star. I wanna do commercials and I wanna do films. He said, it's not that easy. And th-, we, we rationalized, we put things on the table, we evaluated, and boxing was, was it. Boxing was the most feasible venture I could get involved in. And Mike s-, you know, say, well I have no knowledge of boxing, but he made sure that I remained a free agent. That was the key from Mike Trainer. Janks Morton, Janks Morton, he alleviated a lot of the, the guys comin' from the outside trying to get in and be a part of the Sugar Ray Leonard organization. There was just so much that happened durin' the early stages of my career, and without a Janks Morton and a Mike Trainer, I don't know how things would have, you know, formed or happened. But knowin' me, I know fully well I would have remained a free agent.

You have been somewhat, I would say you've been unique in boxing in being able to keep yourself free of the entanglements that generally are involved with boxing promoters. How did you come to the conclusion that you [laughs] could do that at the beginning of your career?

Well, we never asked for anything. In other words, we never went to some company and said we'd like to endorse your product. We could've, maybe we could have gotten more endorsements; but that meant we would be at their price, at their mercy ... knew that. So, we set back and I just kept active, I s-, I would fight, I fought once a month for a year and a half, and I stayed visible, and I kept goin'. I was gettin' better in my field; and they started comin'. They just started comin' to me, and I would never just do anything; I don't care how much they pay; I just don't do anything. If it doesn't respect me or my family, I wouldn't do it.

You, you have been able to keep yourself free also of boxing promotions that, that were not comfortable. You had in effect promoted your own career.

Yes, I never, I never liked the word option, because that's a shaky word. And I really never had to do that except once when I lost to Roberto Dur·n in Montreal and Don King promoted the next one. I, like an actor, hate to be typecast. I don't like to be stereotyped. I don't like that, that word; because they feel that all fighters are illiterate and that they c-, can't articulate; they can't do this, they can't do that. And I don't like that. I don't, I don't believe in that. I think fighters in the past, they didn't have the same opportunities we have today. Th-, they had bad management and what have you, unfortunately. I think fighters today, we have so many opportunities. It's, it's just great.

Ray, as I, we discussed earlier, this program that we're doing is about champions, and you certainly are one of the great champions in the field of boxing. I'd like to talk with you now about three very significant fights in your championship career, and just have you talk about the individuals involved and possibly about your fight plan for each of them. The first of course is Wilfredo Benitez. How did you approach the fight with Benitez. Of course he was undefeated at the time, a remarkable fighter, I think probably it's safe to say that some people thought this was the toughest test for you to that point. How did you approach the fight with Benitez?

Well, with Benitez, the general public, they, they didn't know how experienced this man was, this champion was. And they just felt that it would be an easy fight for me. I had enough experience to deal with a champion, but it mostly came from the heart. I mean, my drive, my determination not to give in has carried me through a lot of fights, and this fight in particular. [Rollout on Camera Roll] It's funny because we had this .... I heard the tape.

[laughs]

I did s—

Ray, we're talking about your championship fight against Wilfredo Benitez, and I was very impressed with that fight because it w-, had so many tactical moments in it. It was a, you could almost call it a fighter's fight. It was against two superb, it brought together two superb strategists, and I think for people who really are boxing fans, it was an exceptionally good fight. Tell us something about your preparation for it, and a little bit if you will about the fight as it progressed, and h-, and how your tactics worked, what you had to change, or what you felt you had to do to win.

Well, just like the Oly-, the, as your amateur career, the ultimate is the gold medal. The same thing applies with professional boxin'. As a contender, the ultimate is quite naturally the championship. And I wanted to win. I didn't think I would lose. But I also knew about my opposition; I knew the guy was an incredible talent. But I trained and I prepared myself well. And it was a scary feelin' though, because all of a sudden, now I'm up against this great champion who's young but experienced. He had that all to th-, to his advantage. The fight itself, we had that stare; we stared each other and tried to intimidate each other. And I think he won that; he was ahead in points at that point, but as the fight went on, each round was a tough round. It was almost an image of myself. This guy was a technician; I was a technician. We both were very strategic; I mean, whatever he did, I did the same thing. And it was tough; and you couldn't appreciate that fight unless you knew boxin'. And it was a very tough fight, and the last round when I knocked him down, that was the deciding factor, it was that close. Champions don't lose close fights, but sometimes there are exceptions.

Do you, do you feel his career is over now?

I think that Benitez has had a lot of problems, and I think he's in the process of makin a comeback, my understandin'. He's capable if he gets his stuff together mentally.

I, I sort of think of boxing as the place where, perhaps, it's the most difficult to make a comeback. I asked you that about Benitez—

[laughs]

Because I think in all the sports, it would seem to me that boxing is the one that's really the toughest to make a comeback.

Again, because it's an individual sport, and you can't blame anyone but yourself. My comeback, I had prepared myself physically. I was in great shape, fantastic shape; in fact, I was one forty-nine at the time and I d-, had all, you know, I knew that I would win and Hag would be next; I knew that, I just knew that. I had my own scenario of how my career would start from that point. And, but so much pressure come down on you. I mean, all of a sudden now I'm facin' reality. I'm facin' a guy that is a test to see if I still have it. I believe I still had it, and I don't think he believed that I still had it. He had the edge somehow. I c-, didn't have concentration and every punch hurt. And the same thing applies to every fighter, because w-, that comeback, you have to prove somethin'. You know, they, they were saying, Ray, you don't have nothin', nothin' to prove; you already established yourself. You have, you know, you're a champion. That's true, but two years ago I was champion. Now, hey, I'm back in the ring again and it's different because all, all of a sudden you're, you're in foreign territory; y-, you know, the soil is not the same. You have to get the feelin' of things, and I just couldn't maintain. And it's a scary feelin'; you know, it's like lights, camera, action. It's on you now, okay? And there are no cue cards. So it's on y-, you're on your own.

The other f-, the second of the three fighters I'd like to talk with you about, of course, Roberto Dur·n. When you met Dur·n in Montreal, of course, a lot of people felt Montreal was your city. You won a gold medal there, you—

I did, too.

[laughs] You're certainly very popular there. And I have to tell you, I picked, in a pool of sports reporters, I picked Ray Leonard to beat Roberto Dur·n in that first fight. Tell us again about the preparation for that fight and what the progressions were in the fight itself.

That was the first time that I have experienced or was involved in animosity. Somewhat a different, a guy with a peculiar personality; a guy that was considered somewhat bizarre, in his, in his attitude. [missing frames] Sh-, I've never experienced anyone s-, makin' statements at me that were really derogatory, really low, about family and what have you, certain gestures that I took as an insult, and, and they were. I couldn't come back because, again, because I respect myself and I respect the kids [missing frames] so I couldn't retaliate with a certain gesture. That bothered me because he challenged my manhood and I couldn't say anything back. That fight led to my, the style that I decided to fight, toe to toe, became a physical fight and Dur·n hurt me, and after the fight, I tried to say, Well, good fight, and he waved me off. And that was the second time I considered retirement, because I gave it all I had; it was a close fight. I thought the last couple rounds were deciding factors, and I didn't get the decision, but I felt; I didn't feel bad. Benitez, I felt like retiring, because it was a tough fight, mentally, physically. And with Dur·n I, I just wanted to give it up.

Ray, I've seen review tapes of the Duran fight, and I must say I think it was close enough for you to have won.

N-, again, normally champions win close decisions; that's respect, that's tradition. But it didn't happen then.

Why?

I think that because of what I stood for; I, again, free agent. I was boxing; I was a guy that was able to transcend the sport. I was changin' the sport; I was makin' it more acceptable. And, I don't know; I was threatened, or I was feared by people.

You then, later in the same year, November of 1980 —

That's my fight.

[laughs] Right. You fought him again, and, astonishingly enough, I think, given Dur·n's personality, given his history as a fighter ... he stops fighting.

Five months later, different Ray Leonard altogether, because I was very serious; I wanted to regain my title. I didn't fall prey to his gestures; I ignored him completely. A very serious opponent I was. The fight itself, I think, was a very scientific fought fight. I boxed him; I, I did everything right. I was really inspired and motivated by Ray Charles who sang the National Anthem. And the first time, you know, I had a chance to meet this, this great man and it was in the ring. So that was motivation. And what I was able to do to Dur·n [missing frames] because Dur·n felt that I would fight the same way. And when I boxed him, I mean, it was a different fight, night and day. He just gave up; he threw his hands up through frustration and humiliation and he said, cramps. Then they said, the press, the critics were sayin', well, you know, Ray, that takes away the, the c-, you know, the, the win. I said, no it doesn't. I said, I made a man like Dur·n quit. That's a great accomplishment. They said, well, how do you assess; how, do you, what do you think happened? I said, Well, it's like a suicidal victim. He jumps off a bridge; halfway down he changes his mind. It's too late. Dur·n threw his hands up, you know, totally frustrated, and didn't realize the impact we have on the world. And now he needs a legitimate excuse. He say can't have a headache, can't say that; so he says cramps. It wasn't cramps. It was ... me.

I think [missing frames] you said something before the fight that I felt was key, and I think at a point the statement reached him in the ring; and that I have always felt that this might be the reason: You said before the fight, I can change. Dur·n can't. And I think at a point in the fight he started to realize, well, he's not fighting you the same way. He has changed. And I can't.

Oh yeah, I knew that I could change my style. I felt that I was versatile enough to adapt to any style that I could change; where he had, he didn't have the ability because D-, Dur·n's been fighting that way the whole, for so many years, so many glorious years of his career. And I change, and he just couldn't adapt to my style. I went as far as having the nostalgic look. I had on all, I had black shoes, black socks; they say they were the ugliest looking socks, black socks, wool socks as a matter of fact. Black trunks, black robe. I went back to the basics.

The fight that I would personally pick as the outstanding fight of your career was against Thomas Hearns. And I must tell you as we chatted before, I thought Hearns would beat you.

That's why I wanted to do this interview. [laughs]

[laughs] But you obviously proved me, and I think a lot of other people, wrong. What about that fight? This was a sup-, this is, was and is, a superior fighter, a really outstanding talent.

Tommy Hearns, I've always respected his talent. I respect him as a, as a gentleman. That fight there was THE fight, the fight that made me accepted overall, and everyone eyes me, as far as saying, Well, he's not a legitimate fighter; he's, he's a guy in front of a camera. No, I made—that fight made me accepted. There were, there was a time where Tommy asked to fight me and I said, No, man. Once you're known to the general public, then it's time. And he took it from a negative standpoint. He thought it was, it was a knock. It wasn't a knock. I was lookin' at mostly a business standpoint for both of our, of, you know, as far as our interests. And once the fight happened, we signed; then, again, we're talkin' reality. I said, this guy's tough, because he has a very impressive record. He's knocked out a lot of guys, Pipino Cuevas, who incidentally was champion at the time. I knew it was going to be a tough fight. I prepared myself. I was injured in trainin' about two weeks prior to the fight and there were discussions [Rollout on Camera Roll] with my people as far as postponement, like we're going to postpone this. I hafta go t' the bathroom anyway.

You talk too fast! [laughs]

We're talking about the Thomas Hearns fight, which, I think we both agree, one of the outstanding fights of, of our time. Tactically, what did you plan to do going into the fight against Hearns?

In watchin' or reviewin' Tommy's career, his fights, I knew the guy possessed a big punch. So I wanted to, to move around. In fact the first, I think the first round, was a, a key round because it was like a feelin' out process. I moved around the ring; in fact, I practically ran around the ring so he wouldn't hit me. And he landed a coupla punches, not, nothin' really, no tellin' blows. So at the end of the first round, he threw a punch, he missed, and I playfully tapped him on his forehead anticipating that he would hit me with a punch. He did, and I moved away, but it just brushed me. Okay, now the crowd is booin' him for bad sportsmanship. Now I have some of these people on my side; and that's what I was tryin' to do, tryin' to get him to lose his composure and then capitalize on his mistakes. [Missing Footage] As the rounds were goin', third, fourth, fifth round, he was comin' on; he was chasin' me, and I would retaliate a coupla times, but I still wasn't comfortable enough, or satisfied enough, with his punchin' power to go inside f-; then I satr down for, I got to the seventh round, I realized—no, the fifth round, I realized that my eye was startin' t' swell. And I said, I need to go to work. I got up, and I went for him, hitting him in the body, and he, he just fold over; and I knew I was in control then. So I came on strong. He cooperated for two rounds. The eighth round, he forgot and came back strong. That's when I really respected his stayin' power, and his, his ability to box. He started comin' back. And by the ninth, tenth, tenth round, I mean, I was really tired, and I knew he was tired. Fatigue had set in with both of us and I knew then that the last few rounds would be big rounds for me. I went for 'im. And hit 'im with a coupla shots, and the rest was history.

Th-When, was there a point in the fight when you sensed that, you know, you're, you're—

In trouble?

Yeah.

[Missing Footage] When, yeah, I sensed that when I got in the ring; I stood in the center of the ring when the referee was givin' instructions. I realized I was in trouble, how, because I realized how big he was. Tommy Hearns, you know, I say he a freak of, he's a freak of nature; and I don't mean that in a negative way. He's an exception. This man is six-one; he's a BIG six-one, because w-, when we weighed in, I weighed forty-six; he was one-forty-five. And I looked so much bigger. I had more definition; I was strong; he looked emaciated. I mean he looked drawn, like dehydrated; [Missing Footage] And then in the ring that night, it was as though he was inflated. I said, that's not the same guy. I looked over at him and he looked so much bigger, and huge. And when we stood there in the center for the instructions, I was, if you noticed, I was bouncin' up and down because I didn't want him to see how tall I was, OK? His arms are long; he's fast; he, he punches very hard. Every time that he would come back strong, I knew that things were not goin' in my favor. And by the tenth round, I knew I had to go to work.

Wh- what was the turning point for you in the fight?

Once, I think the turnin' point was when I was able to hurt him, and I realized that I, I punched harder than Tommy Hearns and that, I don't know, I, there's somethin' [Missing Footage] that, there's an ingredient, I say that champions posses; I don't know the definition; I don't know what it is, but it's somethin' that comes up, comes out of you, that pushes you a step further, or two steps further. And that's what happened with me. I was so tired. I mean, I really was so tired that I; it was as though you don't want to go on anymore. Without thinking about quitting, but you just, you're just at that point whereas that you say, Man, this is, this is too much. And then something say, Get up, let's go, let's go. Your adrenaline starts flowing, and you start getting stronger and stronger. And I went for 'im and I s-, I think about the twelfth or thirteenth round, I threw so many punches, I recall, I couldn't believe, even when watchin' the fight now, I don't believe I was able to do that. And then after the fight, they threw my hands up, I just dropped; I mean, I was so tired I told Ollie Dunlap to h-, to brace me, hold me up under my shoul-; I couldn't stand, and I, you know, I did interviews with the announcers, but I, I, very brief; I couldn't stand. But I walked back to the dressin' room because I wanted to show people I was OK.

What do you; how do you respond today; you've had your career t-, till now, and obviously you still have a emotional attachment to boxing, to, to it as a sport. How do you respond to people who are now pushing to have boxing ab-, abolished because it's too dangerous, because it's too costly in terms of—

Well, I think that what they're tryin' to do, the AMA and Congress, you know, lobbyin' to, to ban the sport is totally wrong. First of all, they say, boxin's a dangerous sport. Football's da-, every sport is dangerous. I think that's why we participate. But we don't think of the dangers once we become a competitor. We don't think about those things; because sometimes they happen as a freak accident, or they just happen. They've made efforts to change the sport of, in baseball, they wear helmets to protect themselves from the hard ball; football, the face mask. I think, AMA, they should come up with some, a constructive effort to better our sport too. We don't have a constituency; we don't have any advocates that stand behind our sport like other sports, because of our sport. We don't have anyone to stand behind us. They've made changes, with the thumbless gloves. At least that's an effort. They have yet t-, to perfect a glove, and that's why a lot of guys, fighters, are opposed to using them. I, myself I am personally opposed to using them when I was active before the injury, because we love the conventional ways. We have to change the conventional way. If something goin' good, hey, fine. That's when you have to realize how much you take for granted. So when my career came to a halt, it was because I overlooks a change in the sport [missing frames] But I think it's a beautiful sport - boxin's made me, boxin's educated me. Quite naturally, because of the way society is, we can't all excel academically; sometimes we are not qualified to have a job on Capitol Hill. We all can't do that. I think for minorities, Black, white, Jews, whatever; for minorities, it gives them a chance, and you can't take that chance away from them. They talk about crime rate. You take that las' realistic alternative away from these people, you're talkin' about crime rate. We're talkin' big.

Ray, did you imagine when you turned professional that the kind of—you turned professional during the era when boxing, and football, baseball, basketball; the money that people could earn just took a quantum leap. I mean, people used to think that being a professional athlete was ninety percent glory and the rest was the money. Now that equation is almost turned around. The money is unimaginable [Missing Footage]

If I knew that I could demand the type of money I was able to during my career, when I was first conceived by my mother, I would have put Franklin boxing gloves right on. It's, it's, it's incredible. I mean, really, I look back on some of the fighters and athletes. In the past, they were great, incredible athletes, but they didn't have that money. And now, s-, in this era here, it, it's, it's fascinating.

Do you think it's gonna mean a lot for the generation of people your sons belong to? Is this going to make a big difference in the way the next generation of kids grow up, because we now have a, a, a population of athletes who have been able to make that step into, into that kind of corporate—

If anything, I think it's gonna be a plus because I think our kids will learn how to incorporate themselves; they would have that business knowledge and they will also make the transition from sports to business. And I hope I am an example to that.

One last question, Ray. How would you complete this sentence? Somebody says to you, finish the sentence, To be a champion ...

Hold it. Move—

Oh, did I lean in? I'm sorry.

No, you're cool. You got it.

And the shoes.

You're hearing my shoes?

Tap shoes.

How would you f-, how would you finish the sentence; and if you would, say it. To be a champion; what would the rest of the line be?

Well, the way I would finish that s-, that sentence, To be a champion, one have to believe in his self when no one else will. That's when you're qualified. [missing frames]

Cut.

Thank you.